Manny
 

....

Has JSA sticker stuck right on the back of the card!
 

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

Agreed, although when searching Worthpoint don't include the back in the search as some people don't list the backs in their original ebay posts.

My opinion, your card is probably an authentic auto. The fading of the signature is pretty hard to forge and I believe that is a fountain pen auto.

Ones I would be suspicion of are the bold ballpoint pen and sharpie signatures.

No surprise here same buyer on the Livingstone.

Attachment 335679

Not to point out the obvious, but it's amazing the only reason this guy got caught is because he was using lower grade encapsulated cards that could easily be traced.

Why somebody skilled enough with forging who was able to get away with this for several years wasn't digging up easily obtained lower grade raw versions of these same players I'll never know.

It's almost arrogant.

Could only imagine how many of these are out there that will never get matched up with the original card.

Also, this thread has got me thinking it's about time I stopped being cheap and finally signed up with Worthpoint.

Purchased my first signed T206 at REA a month ago - 10/28/18. This has a Piedmont 150 back. Any concerns with this one?

I feel terrible for collectors impacted by this. There is just so much fraud in the hobby. :(

This board is just amazing with the detective work by members to try and stamp out scammers.

Is there a cert date for the autograph authentication?

Just plain greed. A passable looking raw card might go for a VG price or a little less to someone hoping for a VG or VG-Ex if they're lucky. A graded 10 will usually be less.

Any luck contacting the original EBay seller?

This card is from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards. Only the Covaleski (secretarial) didn't pass authentication. I would credit this Find with bringing recent attention to signed T206 cards (it certainly jump-started my collection), and unfortunately appears to have invited more forgers into the game.

The Snodgrass asked about above is from "Pre-eBay Group 3" which means they were all offered to me by a recognized dealer in Pittsburgh (either "ctang50" and "r.c.means" on ebay) before he listed them on eBay. From that group, I still have -- and adore -- the signed T201 Wheat and the signed T206 Barbeau. You can read about the find and review the cards from that find on my website.

http://www.signedt206.com/great-pittsburgh-find/

There should be a copy of that feedback on the buyer's "feedback left for others" tab.

If we could only track this account down, it will have a list of all the cards he purchased around this same time period. It could reveal his entire body of work.

Can't we simply ask the Seller "Who purchased this card from you?"

I own the double signed Davy Jones from this find... Is it real?

Checked the PSA website and it did not display the date that the card was authenticated. Also searched several serial numbers surrounding this cert number and none had dates. Is there a certain date range to be wary of?

Yes, but they may be reluctant to give out that information. I'm just surprised that one of the sellers here hasn't checked their feedback to see if they sold to the identified bidders. Although that may mean the bidder reads this forum and avoided sellers that post here.

I believe all signed T206 cards from that find -- other than Secretary-signed Covaleski, the William-signed Powell and the Larry-signed Joe Doyle -- to be authentic.

Without committing that every autographed T206 authenticated prior to October 2015 is the real deal, and putting aside for the moment Rube Marquard generally for other reasons including, but certainly not limited to, the evidently large population and the evidence that his wife may very well have signed some of his T206 cards late in life, I think the most critical eye towards authenticity has to begin with the Robert Edward and Hunt Auctions in the Fall of 2015.

By way of background, in November 2013, the prices on signed T206 cards really went through the roof. Heritage held the largest signed T206 card collection auction since the 2007 find. Not only did this auction feature the first offer of a signed T206 Rucker (throwing pose) since Jeff Morey’s sale in 2001, but the prices realized were more or less astronomical, when compared with the most recent public sales of many of these cards. Ironically, though Marquard is the most popular signed T206 subject, not a single Marquard was available. However, the other "usual suspects" Doyle and Snodgrass were featured, as well as a nice Tommy Leach portrait. For collectors looking to add HOFers, you had three to pick from -- Flick and Crawford, who both went for over $6,500 -- and the cleanest signature on a Wheat imaginable, which helped explain the nearly $4,000 price tag.

Importantly, and I think this is very import -- no new discoveries of unknown signed poses were here, but still wonderful cards nonetheless.

However - and perhaps due to these record-breaking prices, during the winter of 2015-16, a flurry of signed T206 cards popped up in REA and Hunt -- a whopping 6 of which poses had never been publicly identified before (at least as far back and including Jeff Morey's auction of his collection through Mastro in 2001):

In Fall 2015 REA...
1. Frank Baker
2. Jesse Tannehill

<img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4804/45181080325_932478e6e2_b.jpg" width="774" height="650" alt="REA-Baker Tannehill Pair"></a>

In Fall 2015 Hunt...
3. Murray Batting

<img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4870/45368595124_2d9cce7e1b_b.jpg" width="640" height="1024" alt="Murray_Hunt_Standalone"></a>

In Spring 2016 Hunt...
4. Rhoades Hands at Chest

<img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4892/46092780921_67bbc61cf4_b.jpg" width="1024" height="420" alt="Hunt SGC Quartet"></a>

In Spring 2016 REA...
5. Conroy Fielding
6. Sullivan

<img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4814/46092780831_9740b545d6_b.jpg" width="1024" height="418" alt="REA-Quartet"></a>

If your cards did not come from or after the time of these auctions you are not necessarily clear, of course, but I would not let the current trauma affect you. There was nothing surprising about the cards that appeared on the market between 2001 and 2015, all of which are consistent in terms of the players that folks like Jeff Morey were getting in person at Cooperstown and through the mail from the mid-1950s through the 1970s.

In 2015, the landscape shifted and started to include a lot of one-off names. That's not to say all of them aren't legitimate, but Sullivan and Rhoades -- obscure names for autograph seekers -- certainly aren't.

What remains to be seen is whether the consignor(s) of these cards -- and I believe Baker, Tannehill, Rucker, Parent, Sullivan and Conroy all came from the same consignor -- got the cards from the forger unknowingly/unwittingly, whether there were good ones mixed in with the bad ones, or whether they're all just fake regardless of whether the consignor was in on it. REA is in the process of trying to figure this out on his end, and Hunt has been contacted by interested collectors as well. SGC and REA have both indicated the FBI will be contacted.

So, short story, if your signed T206 card(s) can be traced to a sale prior to October 1, 2015, I do not believe that your card would be affected by this latest string of forgeries. Of course, that does not mean you're necessarily in the clear. It just means your cards or collection up to that point probably wasn't impacted by this current attack on the hobby.

As I have said for years and years on Net54, a collection of pre-war cards, signed or not, is only going to be as valuable as the ability and reputation of the TPG/TPA to certify the card/signature.

I will be sure to keep posting about this scourge on my collection and my hobby, and I will have no shame -- and only sadness -- in identifying those cards in my collection that have been shown by credible evidence to be frauds.

Here's the Feedback the seller left the buyer on the Livingstone.

Attachment 335704

Not a great scan but I think this is the Baker.

Attachment 335721

Attachment 335722

WOW!!! Yes it is.

Which means that PSA has now also missed...

<img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4886/44277464110_aeaf7fa327_b.jpg" width="603" height="1024" alt="Baker PSA DNA"></a>

...and now we're up in the big bucks ($24,000):

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=53245

Wow. That one was mine. I bought it through REA in 2015. It had JSA authentication at the time, and I subsequently had PSA authenticate it.

Somebody should check the 2013 Heritage ones.

Wow, I am speechless. As someone who deals in autographs, this seriously makes my heart hurt. I currently only own one signed T206 , and the owner of it before me (board member) had it since the 1980's. I've always felt it was authentic but alas it never passed TPA. Now I see all of these recently created ones and it makes me sick to my stomach.

T206 Autos
 

This so bad for the hobby on so many levels. T206 autos are such a cool rarity. These are my two both bought from well known net54ers. Don't have any doubts, but if anyone wants to do detective work I would appreciate it.

Snodgrass is Polar Bear and Doyle is Sweet Cap 350-460 42 overprint.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4828/...7526b8a2_o.jpg

I am sure this goes well beyond T206’s. I was planning to bid on a few in the upcoming Memory Lane auction and of course now won’t even consider it.

I recently had the SGC put into a PSA holder. I believe the other is still JSA. Not sure when purchased. I've been a bad record keeper. I believe I have had the Piedmont for %+ years but the other is more recent- maybe last 2 years. Anyone have bad news for me??
Attachment 335735

Attachment 335736

Your bottom left corner looks worse, but the right corner crease and, more convincingly, the center crease look spot on to this card.

Sold by sg713 on 02/22/2015
https://cardtarget.blob.core.windows...y/16308104.png
Found on CardTarget

Sickening.

Wow, card #7.

This is the first one I've seen with added corner wear.

Same Buyer on the Baker. Sold by painthistorian on February 23 2015.

Attachment 335738

sg713
 

Scott is a board member...perhaps he can sort back through emails/records and see who the buyer was.

That's Scott, maybe he can help on the buyer.

Horrible for the hobby and this clearly reflects badly on the TPAs, but this is great detective work. Fantastic team effort in exposing this.

The first 3 from Hunt are bad. Odds are so is the Zimmermann.

I have a bad feeling about these too. Fairly newly graded, red SGC label, and ball point pen signature on the Cicotte. The Marquards look like the one that opened pandoras box.

Cicotte was Hunt Auctions July 2018 (Sold for $11k) https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=222&lot_qual=
Marquards was Hunt Auctions March 2017 (Both sold for over $1k)

10-15 years ago it was rare to find a signed T206. Now they're all over the place and I don't know many people who didn't find this unusual. I've never bought one and never will for that reason, among many. There's too many frauds in this hobby as it is so you really need to stick to materials that can't be faked. And even then you need to worry about shill bidders, the Mastros of the world and their coconspirators. Best to avoid adding risk to an already risky hobby. And we've all been burned once at least so no one is above this.

All four are from the same submission number.

Seller: colleenscollect
Feb 22, 2015

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4828/...f7673f06_o.jpg

This can’t be that hard. Start with the auction houses since they have the most to lose. Ask who consigned the cards. If they refuse post their names here and I bet they will face losing a lot of business. They should be the most interested in solving this issue since it will diminish their realizations if this is not solved.
Clean Sweep sells a lot of autographed material. Steve Verkman should be leading the charge to catch these forgers.

The Zimmermann is very similar to this exemplar.

another try, my Crawfords, all now in PSA
Attachment 335747

Attachment 335748

Attachment 335750

i bought the fake Flick from Hunt 2/24/16

Whelp I think I found the Cicotte one. There seems to be additional minor creasing and scuffs done to the autograph version, but as we saw with the Flick this forger likes to add a few new creases from time to time. The centering of the card on the front and back are identical. And the crease on the lower right side by his hand are identical. There is even an identical crease on the back in the sweet caporal border in the lower right side. The corners of the card are identical. And both have Fact. 30 backs. Not as concrete as when I found the Rhoades, but I'm 99% certain this is it. Take a look at the links to see for yourself.

This card went from a $65 card to a $11k card.

Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1817520994

Hunt Auctions link:
https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=222&lot_qual=

is anyone checking their 1933'S, exhibits, play balls, other tobacco, etc?

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if TPGs put this much effort into authenticating?

Comparison

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4907/...a53f6d68_b.jpg

That scan is blurry so I can't tell for sure. I was looking at that same Cicotte card on Worthpoint earlier today and just wasn't 100% sure on it.

The Flick was purchased from Scott by the same buyer.

Attachment 335761

This is a full blown scandal now.

At this point, board members should insist that SGC, PSA, and JSA immediately search their records for all cert #'s submitted by this forger and issue an immediate hobby-wide recall notice on each cert, and post it here.

Looks like the same buyer also bought a Shaw, Murray, and a Crawford in the same transaction with Scott. UGH.

This is really shitty. I’m currently investigating several fabricated T206 errors that are graded and have sold for up to 11k at auctioN.

Agreed. And the auction houses which sold these frauds need to start contacting their consigners and the winners of these bad lots.

Chris, are you referring to ghost images and anomalies like that? If so, have you found anything yet (saw the Cobb ghost card).

I have found one faked ghost and am investigating another, just waiting on scans. It’s a big part of why I have taken a break and why I have started posting again.

My worry is they start buying privately or make modifications to the card (creases, dirt, ink, stamps) to differentiate it from any previous scans.

Not good.

Picked up this Marquard 2 months ago in PWCC, my only signed T206 HOFer. JSA LOA is a little over a year old, and it sold at Huggins shortly after. Similar slant to the originally posted Marquard, however slightly different sig.

If it's not genuine, curious if it may have previously sold in an A holder? Huggins had disclosed the card as being trimmed.

Attachment 335769Attachment 335767
Attachment 335768

THIS many 206 and nobody here has sold the buyer any?

Edit: Nevermind, I made a mistake with the Marquard

What do you guys think, same card? This was the closest I can find. But I don't think this is the same card because the border on the bottom is thicker....Unless this guy trims cards too. Yikes. However that signature looks a lot like the Marquard rejected signature that blew everything up.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1909-11-t206-rube-marquard-follow-419403623

This could really ruin JSA's reputation. I don't see how they never thought to do a quick background check of cards. Takes no time.

Thoughts on this one? This whole story is just crazy!

https://i.ibb.co/tsSbyhB/IMG-3058-1.jpg

Damn...had a great joke teed up and everything.

Yep, same card, and same ugly slanted black marker signature.

I'm running out of space on the thread title to add more names. This is the 9th, and the Cicotte is possibly the 10th.

Always wondered why we don’t see any attempts to forge a Shaw - he died in the 1970s and has six letters in his name! Wonder if it got rejected.

The Murray is highly relevant to me as I have one of those signed which I bought in Hunt (shown above).

The TPA's should know the name and location of this forger.

We hereby demand that they release his name so that he may be tarred and feathered on the public square for all to see.

This was in the Heritage Dec 2016 Auction. How the hell was this authenticated? Forgery or not, this doesn't look anything like Marquard's signature. Not even his supposed wife's signature.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/s...umbnail-071515

Truly stunning, both for the breadth of the forgeries and the impact on the hobby, but also stunningly awesome the research and evidence you guys are piling up.

Frankly, if I had an auction house, I would be in touch with you guys to see if you'd want a job.

A lot more has to happen to this forger, a lot more.
Great work here guys.
Manny, I sent you a PM.

Your Flick is unfortunately probably this one. Hard to tell though since it's blurry.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-psa-136547898

Notice that both have the one spec missing in the grass in the right. And you can even see the sliver of white missing in border in the top left. And the centering looks the same. Do you have a picture of the back?

Edit: Looks like you may be in the clear. I think I found the same card but with a clearer picture. I think the corners on your card are sharper and your centering top to bottom is a little different
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...mont-486696958

Card is in safety box. But the card you posted on Worthpoint looks to have more border on top

Yeah I agree.

Steiner Auction
 

The Flick comes from a Steiner Auction earlier this year. These four were part of that collection.

Here's the double signed Conroy Fielding sold on ebay on August 2 2015.

Attachment 335794

Attachment 335795

LOL "double signed." Pretty ambitious, I must say.

Yes, you are correct but don't know the history before that...

anyone on my other Flick? cant seem to get it upright, sorry
Attachment 335800

I was the underbidder on that one. I’ve never been so happy to be outbid.

I wonder if this is enough proof and $$ to get a District Attorney interested.

That card has been signed for a long time. It sold on eBay way back in 2008 with a JSA sticker on the back. It's probably good, since it's so old.

Link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...cco-card-jsa-1

Another one?
 

I just found this currently for sale on eBay. I was unable to find the potential "original" card, but I am also not as savvy as some. Much about that auto doesn't look right to me.