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-   -   What is the origin of Frank Thomas NNOF? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=249657)

HasselhoffsCheeseburger 11-23-2018 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1828943)

EDIT: To ask, Arthur who are those people you watched reback cards?

It wasn't nefarious. They were doing it to prove a point, as well as altering the ink in numerous fashions on other cards and getting them into PSA slabs, again, to prove a point. They changed colors, removed text, just about everything you can think of. This is why I say that not being able to conceive of a procedure isn't the same as the procedure not existing.

All of those cards were cracked out of PSA slabs.

Arthur

bnorth 11-23-2018 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger (Post 1829235)
It wasn't nefarious. They were doing it to prove a point, as well as altering the ink in numerous fashions on other cards and getting them into PSA slabs, again, to prove a point. They changed colors, removed text, just about everything you can think of. This is why I say that not being able to conceive of a procedure isn't the same as the procedure not existing.

All of those cards were cracked out of PSA slabs.

Arthur

Thanks for the response Arthur. I have done pretty much the same thing and posted pictures on this forum. I done it to help myself and others from buying altered cards.

steve B 11-27-2018 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by West (Post 1828835)
Hey Steve,
Thank a lot for the response. Always like hearing from someone with printing experience.

The line (plate scratch) you are talking about - are you referring to the dark line below where the "F" in "Frank" should be? Nearly all the regular NNOFs have this scratch, if that helps at all.

Yes, that's probably a short plate scratch, or a flaw on the mask (A giant negative the plates were made from.) And it should be on almost all of them, if not actually all of them. It would be interesting to see a regular one with the same mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by West (Post 1828835)
You mentioned the number of impressions (population) of the NNOF. One person with 35+years in the printing industry said that the error was likely caught at the printers after 10 minutes. He speculated that this would have created 700-1000. He said that if it were a small number caught, say 100, then the sheets would have been pulled and sent to the bailer.

What is consistent with this count is the former Topps employee told me that QC pulled uncut sheets every 1000 or so to check for mistakes and print quality.


That sounds entirely plausible. We probably didn't pull sheets for QC as often as that, but we also weren't doing the sort of production Topps was - especially in 1990. Especially when I was on the press, although I did get almost up to speed with the regular guys. :D
What's especially good to know is that Topps was still using sheet fed presses, rather than web fed. (If the web press had a cutting station they still could pull sheets, so it's not 100% )

I'd be a bit surprised if Topps sent anything to the Baler in 1990. 87 through 91 there's so much out there for misprints. One Ebay dealer had a 5000 ct box of blank front/back cards, all from the same year.

steve B 11-27-2018 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1829246)
Thanks for the response Arthur. I have done pretty much the same thing and posted pictures on this forum. I done it to help myself and others from buying altered cards.


Ben is the guy I asked about fading black. I already knew black was often impossible to fade, since it's usually a carbon pigment. I thought some of the modern dye inks might be different and Ben has tested a few different years and colors.


Rebacking is pretty easy, not easy to do well, but not hard.

Removing certain specific colors from an older card shouldn't be a problem on some sets, more difficult on others. T206 is probably pretty easy to take the caption off, Crackerjacks are probably very hard to change except for fading the red.


On a modern card like 90 Topps, you'd have to do that through the glosscoat, or remove the gloss and regloss the whole thing after. Maybe not impossible, but not simple.

lowpopper 11-29-2018 12:34 AM

Any conclusive update on this card with the faded/added name?

West 11-29-2018 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowpopper (Post 1831121)
Any conclusive update on this card with the faded/added name?

The only thing we know definitely is no one in their right mind will pay anything close to $10K for that.

Rdelmonico 02-13-2020 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 1828774)
I've looked at a bunch of stuff, and I think it's real too. I also have it on good authority that fading black without fading the surrounding ink is very difficult.


I actually can't figure out for sure what caused it.


The others are almost certainly from a big bit of debris, probably tape obstructing the plate while it was being exposed.

If it wasn't then, the next likely problem is a bit of debris in the press preventing that part of the plate from being inked. But the most common of those would be a bit of paper, which of course gets inked, transfers, and looks totally different.

Maybe a bit of saran wrap type stuff? That should take ink too, but might not. Usually to repel ink the obstruction has to also hold enough water.

Most stuff like that is very transient, not usually hundreds or 1000+ impressions.


If it's something blocking the inking, then this could be within the first few impressions. Maybe in the first 5? I have a card that has an additional 4 uninked impressions, so it can extend that many at least.


But there doesn't seem to be a shadow of the border, which I'd think should be there.

I can't think there was enough damage that a strip of plate got ripped out. With the pressure required, I'd think the underlying cylinder would have been inked but printed poorly.


It could be a different blue plate that for some reason had the name on it when the rest didn't. That would be pretty strange, but then, it's Topps...

Fortunately, the card has clues!
There's a line from what's probably a plate scratch right near the left of the name plate. If it's an on-press obstruction, there should be cards with the same line.
Unless the plate got changed right after the obstruction.

And Topps wasn't great with registration, if the blue plates ever had the name on them, there should be cards misregistered showing a blue shadow of the name alongside the black printed name.

Just a question. Is the NNOF semi transparent? Like a tiffany stock??

Rdelmonico 02-13-2020 12:11 PM

Is the NNOF semi transparentlike a tiffany????

swarmee 02-13-2020 03:28 PM

I've seen some people call it a "blacklessing" version similar to the partially black 1982 Topps cards.

Davidlisa 03-04-2020 01:39 PM

1990 Topps Frank Thomas NNOF
 
There are many theories as to how these cards were made including the information on the PSA website. That one makes a lot of sense but it is only a very good theory. I know these come from wax packs at least, I don't know about anything else. I don't remember the year but I saw a NNOF pulled out of a pack at at the National, I think it was in Cleveland. Since this is the same year as the George Bush cards, I wonder if there is more to the story, anyway, great card.

HalfNipponese 07-14-2020 01:44 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I found 9 of these cards in a shoe box this weekend. Is it worth the money to get these graded. PSA said it would be about $75 per card. Is that normal for these? Thanks for the advise.

I pulled these card from rack packs back in 1990. My friend got the NNOF Thomas and I got these. I remember the day vividly as I was pissed that my packs had a bunch of "printing errors" on them. They went into the shoe box 30 years ago and were just uncovered this Sunday making room in a closet.

HalfNipponese 07-14-2020 06:37 PM

I struck gold again. Just found the Fred McGriff card. I’m up to a nice even 10.

Extra Innings 07-21-2020 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper (Post 1736634)
Does anyone know when the 1990 Topps Thomas NO Name was first reported ? By chance I'm looking at a Oct, 1991 Beckett Monthly featuring Frank Thomas cards and there is no mention of it in the article or in the price guide.
If it was in packs etc. early in the production run it should have been reported in late 1989 or early 1990 in the hobby publications and later listed in price guides. I'll continue to check my publications.

I've been looking through the '90/'91 Beckett's I have too and so far I'm unable to find anything in the price guide about 414A NNOF.

Although, a google search led to this article concerning the card including a price from the Jan. 1994 issue. Maybe that was the first time Beckett priced it..?

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ta...k-thomas-nnof/

HalfNipponese 07-21-2020 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Extra Innings (Post 2001176)
I've been looking through the '90/'91 Beckett's I have too and so far I'm unable to find anything in the price guide about 414A NNOF.

Although, a google search led to this article concerning the card including a price from the Jan. 1994 issue. Maybe that was the first time Beckett priced it..?

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ta...k-thomas-nnof/

I have Beckett from 1993 and it lists the NNOF at a value of $15. I don't have the issue with me but it's the one with Jim Abbott in his Yankees uniform. I thought I remember them start to surface in late 1991 but it may just be my memory. I know they were discovered before I graduated high school in 1992 but I believe it had little additional value and was considered a printing error. Collecting took a pause for me between 1993 and 1999 so I could invest more time in the fairer sex.

Hatorade 07-22-2020 08:39 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Extra Innings (Post 2001176)
I've been looking through the '90/'91 Beckett's I have too and so far I'm unable to find anything in the price guide about 414A NNOF.
Although, a google search led to this article concerning the card including a price from the Jan. 1994 issue. Maybe that was the first time Beckett priced it..?
https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ta...k-thomas-nnof/

I was texting with a friend a couple months back after his dad just dropped off some of his childhood belongings, which included some old Beckett price guides. I asked him about any of the issues containing the prices of the NNOF within them. The earliest issue he had with 414A is from March 1993 and the price was $6 and the price bounced up to $25 in the October 1993 issue he had.

HalfNipponese 07-22-2020 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatorade (Post 2001468)
I was texting with a friend a couple months back after his dad just dropped off some of his childhood belongings, which included some old Beckett price guides. I asked him about any of the issues containing the prices of the NNOF within them. The earliest issue he had with 414A is from March 1993 and the price was $6 and the price bounced up to $25 in the October 1993 issue he had.

That's kind of what I remember. I thought the regular card was something like $2 and the NNOF was $4 or $5 but again I'm not sure if my memory is accurate.

Extra Innings 07-23-2020 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatorade (Post 2001468)
I was texting with a friend a couple months back after his dad just dropped off some of his childhood belongings, which included some old Beckett price guides. I asked him about any of the issues containing the prices of the NNOF within them. The earliest issue he had with 414A is from March 1993 and the price was $6 and the price bounced up to $25 in the October 1993 issue he had.

Cool. Thanks for the information. I'll post again if I see something earlier than March of '93.

isiahfan 08-03-2020 04:54 PM

Happy to discuss this card
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by West (Post 1825917)
I'm confused when you say "His comment serves no purpose in furthering or dispelling any theory". The whole point of this thread is finding out the who, what, when, where and how of the circumstances in which the NNOF was created. The "where" is a very important piece of the puzzle for a number of reasons that I'm not going to get into.

You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him.

All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me.

This is my card...happy to answer any questions, but basically what I have posted on eBay in the description is legit. I have had NUMEROUS people send me messages on the card and offer information.

As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more?

I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction.

And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card.

HalfNipponese 08-03-2020 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan (Post 2005628)
This is my card...happy to answer any questions, but basically what I have posted on eBay in the description is legit. I have had NUMEROUS people send me messages on the card and offer information.

As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more?

I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction.

And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card.

Very cool card. If I had the 10k to burn I would buy it. Someday it will get the respect it deserves.

bnorth 08-03-2020 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan (Post 2005628)
This is my card...happy to answer any questions, but basically what I have posted on eBay in the description is legit. I have had NUMEROUS people send me messages on the card and offer information.

As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more?

I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction.

And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card.

Cool card. I will say whoever you quoted in your eBay listing on what happened is wrong. There is absolutely no way what they said is really what happened IMHO.

steve B 08-03-2020 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2005708)
Cool card. I will say whoever you quoted in your eBay listing on what happened is wrong. There is absolutely no way what they said is really what happened IMHO.

I agree about the dry ink cartridges thing. Simply not the way high production printing was done. Not even low production printing.

I do think the card is cool, and that it's probably an actual NNOF. Why the shadow of the name is there is a bit of a mystery, but I can think of a few reasons why.

The normal missing black is from a poorly made plate where part of it was obscured while it was being exposed. Sloppy work, and if someone said the platemaker was asleep I might give them that..

Adding the name to a new blue plate by mistake is possible. It's not really likely, but neither is letting a huge bit of tape or something get into the plate exposing machine. (Both are so very Topps though)

"Guys! The blue block with Frank Thomas's name doesn't have a name!"
"Ok, I made a new blue plate and fixed it"
"No! not the blue one, the black plate!"
"But you said blue.... "
"The block is blue, the name is black"

Now there should be "normal" Thomas's with the blue name showing under the black if the registration isn't right. I haven't seen one of those either. But if they messed up and "fixed" the wrong plate there should be some.

isiahfan 08-04-2020 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2005708)
Cool card. I will say whoever you quoted in your eBay listing on what happened is wrong. There is absolutely no way what they said is really what happened IMHO.


Could you please be more specific because I quoted two guys basically...one ran printing for two large card companies and the other is widely regarded as the printing error expert in the industry. I am neither an expert in printing nor print errors, but trust what those guys have said.

ALR-bishop 08-04-2020 09:57 AM

The timing and positioning of posts 101 and 102 is interesting.

lowpopper 08-04-2020 11:40 AM

And we still have yet to see indisputable proof if these were put into packs or not. :D

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

bnorth 08-04-2020 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan (Post 2005836)
Could you please be more specific because I quoted two guys basically...one ran printing for two large card companies and the other is widely regarded as the printing error expert in the industry. I am neither an expert in printing or print errors, but trust what those guys have said.

I would be interested to know who is the widely regarded printing expert in the industry.

The one that really makes me shake my head is they don't even have the sheet layout or cards on a sheet correct. Those can easily be found by looking at a sheet on eBay. When you have the easiest part wrong what are the chances the hard stuff is correct.:D

I am no expert but I have definitely stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.;)

ALR-bishop 08-04-2020 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2005886)
I would be interested to know who is the widely regarded printing expert in the industry.
.;)

Me too. Maybe he could help explain and straighten out stuff in the variations thread and help us differentiate between variations, errors and recurring print defects. We really do need an expert in charge of this stuff.

isiahfan 08-04-2020 07:16 PM

some responses
 
"This card would have been one of the first no name cards coming off the printing press when it occurred. This was run on an offset sheet fed press that does not use dry offset inks but wet. Somehow the printing blanket got damaged during the pressrun and stopped transferring the black ink to the card stock. But what happens is this is 4/color process which means there were 4 blankets or more that might have been used transferring all the inks and when the black blanket got damaged the black ink was still on the other blankets allowing the Frank Thomas name to be there a few more sheets before it totally disappeared. If you notice all of the missing black is consistent with all no names like the missing Topps logo in the lower right corner. You are asking how I know this, I have been in offset sheet fed printing for 43 years and worked for a printing company that printed baseball, basketball and Pokémon trading cards for 19 of those. The process has not changed hardly at all during my years in it. The card graders need a printing expert in these types of cases but think they know it all!!! I believe your card is the real deal, hope this helps your understanding of how this occurred"

isiahfan 08-04-2020 07:27 PM

another...
 
I've only seen one like yours before & it was in 1990 in Florida: a 1989 Topps card with a shadow name like yours and part of the wavy box with the name inside was shadowed also. Those are usually caught and only occur on one part of the 100-card sheet affected one; maybe two rows of cards. So when these errors occur the maximum that wind up on the 11 (vertical) X 10 (horizontal) sheets is 20-cards. I wouldn't doubt that an employee at the printer kept one for himself only, then it eventually made its way into the hobby.

From the 1980's- early 1990's base cards were printed with a dry ink. When the cartridge started running out a buzzer would sound. At times employees would literally fall asleep (printing was 24/7) and many sheets would print with partial black ink (always the first color to run out) as it was used more frequently on most year cards. That's what happened to your card. Most of the ink ran out on the bottom on the card affecting only the name. Since it was dry ink, it would run out on certain areas in different degrees before it ran out everywhere. Liquid ink doesn't do that. They used liquid ink exclusively since 1995. Employees were supposed to destroy every sheet affected by dry ink cartridges, but when some slipped through it was always DONE ON PURPOSE by the printer employees (paid minimum wage, so they didn't care).

This is how SO MANY wrong back, bland back/front cards wound up in the hobby from the late 1980's to early 1990's as well. It started with Kruk Cards buying ALL these cards from Topps (hundreds of thousands of them) that they sold in 3,000-5,000 count boxes in the 2000's-2015. I have a 5,000 count box of these & a few crazy errors!

bnorth 08-04-2020 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan (Post 2006000)
"This card would have been one of the first no name cards coming off the printing press when it occurred. This was run on an offset sheet fed press that does not use dry offset inks but wet. Somehow the printing blanket got damaged during the pressrun and stopped transferring the black ink to the card stock. But what happens is this is 4/color process which means there were 4 blankets or more that might have been used transferring all the inks and when the black blanket got damaged the black ink was still on the other blankets allowing the Frank Thomas name to be there a few more sheets before it totally disappeared. If you notice all of the missing black is consistent with all no names like the missing Topps logo in the lower right corner. You are asking how I know this, I have been in offset sheet fed printing for 43 years and worked for a printing company that printed baseball, basketball and Pokémon trading cards for 19 of those. The process has not changed hardly at all during my years in it. The card graders need a printing expert in these types of cases but think they know it all!!! I believe your card is the real deal, hope this helps your understanding of how this occurred"

That is actually fairly close to what could have happened. I don't see it as being a blanket problem that caused the error. My best guess though is really really close to what this person told you. The stuff you have quoted in you listing is so silly it has to be driving any serious buyer away.

If you don't know what a blanket is I am sure I have an old one from a Hiedelberg out in the garage. I can take a pic and post it if you want.

isiahfan 08-04-2020 07:29 PM

names removed
 
I've removed their names and credentials so they could not be easily identified...some conflicting info for sure...maybe even some board members....

isiahfan 08-04-2020 07:34 PM

curious
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2006006)
That is actually fairly close to what could have happened. I don't see it as being a blanket problem that caused the error. My best guess though is really really close to what this person told you. The stuff you have quoted in you listing is so silly it has to be driving any serious buyer away.

If you don't know what a blanket is I am sure I have an old one from a Hiedelberg out in the garage. I can take a pic and post it if you want.

As stated..I know nothing about the printing process. I am curious what you keep specifically referring to in my description and why you are so confident in how the error occurred. To be honest I don't really care about how it happened...just care that one of the big 2 card grading companies will give it a NNOF (preferably) or Partial Blackless. I highly doubt my description scares away anyone..it's the lack of grading IMHO that is killing it.

bnorth 08-04-2020 07:53 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan (Post 2006009)
As stated..I know nothing about the printing process. I am curious what you keep specifically referring to in my description and why you are so confident in how the error occurred. To be honest I don't really care about how it happened...just care that one of the big 2 card grading companies will give it a NNOF (preferably) or Partial Blackless. I highly doubt my description scares away anyone..it's the lack of grading IMHO that is killing it.

It is beyond obvious one of your experts is wrong. You quoted the wrong one in your listing.

This is what a printing blanket looks like. The streaks are rain as it and me got wet when I brought it in from the garage. I took the pic in front of my bat rack that I have posted pics of several times on this forum. That means I am not trying to act cool and pretend I know what I am talking about.

There really is no way of knowing exactly what happened but it is easy to know what did not happen.

I actually think it is 100% real if that matters.

isiahfan 08-04-2020 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2006013)
It is beyond obvious one of your experts is wrong. You quoted the wrong one in your listing.

This is what a printing blanket looks like. The streaks are rain as it and me got wet when I brought it in from the garage. I took the pic in front of my bat rack that I have posted pics of several times on this forum. That means I am not trying to act cool and pretend I know what I am talking about.

There really is no way of knowing exactly what happened but it is easy to know what did not happen.

I actually think it is 100% real if that matters.

I appreciate it....I am always happy to learn more about the process

bnorth 08-04-2020 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan (Post 2006014)
I appreciate it....I am always happy to learn more about the process

Honestly the biggest thing for me is. If I was buying a $10K card that is a only known printing error and had no printing knowledge. I would find someone that did, When they read what you have quoted they would laugh and tell the buyer to pass. JMHO

The top part of you listing is great. I also believe it had to be the first or really close to the first NNOF card printed. I could be wrong but it is my best guess.

isiahfan 08-04-2020 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2006017)
Honestly the biggest thing for me is. If I was buying a $10K that is a only known printing error and had no printing knowledge. I would find someone that did, When they read what you have quoted they would laugh and tell the buyer to pass. JMHO

The top part of you listing is great. I also believe it had to be the first or really close to the first NNOF card printed. I could be wrong but it is my best guess.

I got ya...and I will change it....but I think we will agree to disagree on the influence it would have on an average buyer. I don't think most would buy it without it being slabbed (Sadly...and in many cases understandably... this is where the hobby has gone), and the few that would probably crap money and don't care. I think very few people without specific knowledge themselves would procure and take into serious consideration that of an expert as the value is directly related to the certification. Next show I go to I will get it slabbed...even if just as a regular card...and see how that affects the sale?

bnorth 08-04-2020 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan (Post 2006019)
I got ya...and I will change it....but I think we will agree to disagree on the influence it would have on an average buyer. I don't think most would buy it without it being slabbed (Sadly...and in many cases understandably... this is where the hobby has gone), and the few that would probably crap money and don't care. I think very few people without specific knowledge themselves would procure and take into serious consideration that of an expert as the value is directly related to the certification. Next show I go to I will get it slabbed...even if just as a regular card...and see how that affects the sale?

I do agree with you on it being in a slab, especially if you could get it into a PSA slab.

I will PM you with a little more info.:D

steve B 08-04-2020 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2006013)
It is beyond obvious one of your experts is wrong. You quoted the wrong one in your listing.

This is what a printing blanket looks like. The streaks are rain as it and me got wet when I brought it in from the garage. I took the pic in front of my bat rack that I have posted pics of several times on this forum. That means I am not trying to act cool and pretend I know what I am talking about.

There really is no way of knowing exactly what happened but it is easy to know what did not happen.

I actually think it is 100% real if that matters.

That's what that is all right.
Ours were green.

Depending on the press, there would either be one, cleaned between colors. Or one for each color.
I don't know of a multi color press that put all four colors plus glosscoat on the same blanket. No that there are none, just that there aren't any I know of for offset lithography.
(BEP has/had a press or two that could do multi color intaglio from one plate, but that's an entirely different process, and not offset in any way. As far as I know they were never all that open about how it worked.)

Those blankets are fairly thick rubber, and Ours were fabric reinforced. They were hard to damage, especially to the extent of the missing black patch on the NNOF sheet. When they got old they would crack a bit like any other rubber then it was time to replace them. That wasn't all that often.

Since they're compressible, shallow damage will affect the print quality. But it doesn't look like that.

What does look like that is debris in the platemaking process, especially since the missing area looks like packing tape.

Dry offset printing could be a couple things, one process called that uses a rubber plate similar to typesetting. Which prints to the blanket. But it's usually used for printing onto plastic or metal.

Or it could be waterless printing, where instead of a plate that retains water so it can reject ink in the unprinted areas, the plate has silicone or other ink repelling materials. It's fairly new and I don't know the exact date, but the plates are made and used in a similar way to traditional plates.

bnorth 08-05-2020 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 2006050)
That's what that is all right.
Ours were green.

They come in handy around the house. Besides making perfectly centered 60s Mantles(joking) they are way better than kneeling or laying on the ground when working on stuff. That is why I have one at home, no press in the garage.

HalfNipponese 08-05-2020 09:37 AM

Here's an article about my find and the recent pull documented on the CU forum. There's also discussion about a potential 14th card on the board.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-junk-wax-era/

saucywombat 08-05-2020 10:12 AM

Having contemplated this issue in depth and given that a lot of information is buried under the sheer size and volume of the PSA Forum thread, I have copied a 2017 post I made there regarding the source of the error in the printing process.

ITS HONESTLY VERY COMPLICATED! And not in any way a sort of a Guttenberg press sort of affair, especially at the volume that Topps was producing what is essentially cardboard packaging. If you can take the time to read all of this and the related links, its very interesting in that you will see the issues that create every type of printing error that we as collectors find on baseball cards.

If you aren't interested in reading, essentially the Thomas and related errors come from either the chemical developing of the photographic negative of the cards for the black plate or the subsequent step of chemically etching those negatives onto the physical metal plate.

The physical metal plates accept ink from the blankets. Due to the issues with the plate itself, the plate did not accept black ink from the blankets (in the areas we find the errors). The plate itself literally is worn out by the production process and must eventually be replaced. Topps would have worn out many plates during any given years production. This wearing out process explains the slight variances between the cards.

IMO - Dave
************************************************** *********

Well first let me say that the four color printing process, a variation of gravure printing, that produces baseball cards, most commercial cardboard packaging and newspaper, is a process that an immense amount of variables play in to. A quick web search will reveal a great deal of scholarly (include complex physics) energy is devoted to perfecting the process. Think fluid dynamics, capillary actions, heat, pressure, static electricity, viscosity, paper quality, ideal chemical properties, speed of rollers, thickness or rollers, tension between rollers, etc.

It defies a short explanation so if anyone is so inclined, check out printwiki.org/Gravure
Pretty interesting

Another good site which shows common defects in the 4 color process (and basic catalog of every PD in the history of Topps) see http://www.offsetprintingtechnology....roubleshooting

Gravure printing involves at its heart the engraving of an image onto a printing plate. in the mid-19th century processes were developed to allow for the chemical etching of photographic images into metal. This allowed for the first time for photographic images to be accurately reproduced through press printing (as it was not possible to perfectly reproduce by hand on to the plate). Interestingly today it is possible to physically etch an image with digital technology which can eliminate the chemical process but not possible in 1990.

So at some point Topps photographed and developed the the "F" plate black image. This is when the most likely error occurred that produced the blackless area on the F sheet.

Undeveloped patches are a known problem in developing photographic prints, which would be loosely defined as an area of the negative that has been unaffected by processing solutions. This may have gone unnoticed and the image transferred to the plate.

Also a possibility is that a chemical process is used to etch the photographic negative into the plate. So a perfectly good image can be distorted if the chemical etching process does not go well. I think this is probably what we are looking at with the "F" plate. In this example of the process you can easily see how bubbling or streaking of the sort present on the "F" sheet are easily made during the application of the image to the roller plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwPVKJmElbU

The image in the video is known as a "resist". Problems that occur in rotogravure printing can include the resist not being properly applied. The video above shows a simplified process (usually the resist stays adhered longer to the plate for the image to be properly transferred). The resist usually requires a more involved process for stripping it away from the plate. Sometimes the resist (or parts there of) remain adhered to the plate. This is a very plausible explanation for the errors. To me it seems clear from the type of blackless areas produced and the quantity in which they were produced point clearly to an issue created by the production of the photographic image that produced the resist or its application or removal from the black "F" plate.

ALR-bishop 08-05-2020 10:33 AM

Great post Dave, thanks for the info

West 08-05-2020 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saucywombat (Post 2006129)
Having contemplated this issue in depth and given that a lot of information is buried under the sheer size and volume of the PSA Forum thread, I have copied a 2017 post I made there regarding the source of the error in the printing process.


I'm still confused by the digression into gravure printing. I agree that the cause of the error was an improperly exposed/damaged plate. As we have mentioned in the past, that is the only way the NNOF was reproduced 500-1000X and all copies are virtually identical. However, the Topps employee I spoke to told me they used offset lithography printing - ie a printing plate created from a mask of negatives (I'm following Steve's theory here that an obstruction - tape, etc- in the platemaking process prevented the black plate from being properly exposed). In gravure a cylinder is engraved with cells which carry ink - seems a lot different than offset lithography. Also, it says gravure prints hexagons, while offset lithography gives the dot design - an example of which can be found on the very distinct 1990 Topps colored borders.

saucywombat 08-05-2020 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by West (Post 2006210)
I'm still confused by the digression into gravure printing. I agree that the cause of the error was an improperly exposed/damaged plate. As we have mentioned in the past, that is the only way the NNOF was reproduced 500-1000X and all copies are virtually identical. However, the Topps employee I spoke to told me they used offset lithography printing - ie a printing plate created from a mask of negatives (I'm following Steve's theory here that an obstruction - tape, etc- in the platemaking process prevented the black plate from being properly exposed). In gravure a cylinder is engraved with cells which carry ink - seems a lot different than offset lithography. Also, it says gravure prints hexagons, while offset lithography gives the dot design - an example of which can be found on the very distinct 1990 Topps colored borders.

Well I'd say the point of the post is not to demonstrate that a gravure method was used vs. offset lithography and that the references to gravure, by means of internet ready information, were the clearest way to demonstrate the idea of how printing made the leap from etched images to being able to accurately reproduce photographic images on a plate. I would trust your assertion regarding the use of offset lithography.

With either offset lithography or gravure (in 1990) a chemical process is required to transfer the image from the negative into a metal plate. Full stop.

My point being this is my opinion on where the error originates. It was a chemical issue that relates to the image being engraved on the plate. How the ink and/or image is then impressed or transferred to cardboard stock is not an issue.

This would correlate with the visual we have from the totality of the error area. It resembles nothing. It is an irregular fluid area, almost like you poured water on a pane of glass.

I do not understand the desire to relate all this to a piece of tape or cardboard obstruction, which the error area in no way resembles.

Perhaps it's a better narrative that more people could relate to that a careless or incompetent worker carelessly or foolishly wasn't paying attention to a piece of tape or cardboard, rather than a very esoteric discussion of offset lithography methodology and common mass production issues.

West 08-05-2020 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saucywombat (Post 2006240)
Well I'd say the point of the post is not to demonstrate that a gravure method was used vs. offset lithography and that the references to gravure, by means of internet ready information, were the clearest way to demonstrate the idea of how printing made the leap from etched images to being able to accurately reproduce photographic images on a plate. I would trust your assertion regarding the use of offset lithography.

With either offset lithography or gravure (in 1990) a chemical process is required to transfer the image from the negative into a metal plate. Full stop.

My point being this is my opinion on where the error originates. It was a chemical issue that relates to the image being engraved on the plate. How the ink and/or image is then impressed or transferred to cardboard stock is not an issue.

This would correlate with the visual we have from the totality of the error area. It resembles nothing. It is an irregular fluid area, almost like you poured water on a pane of glass.

I do not understand the desire to relate all this to a piece of tape or cardboard obstruction, which the error area in no way resembles.

Perhaps it's a better narrative that more people could relate to that a careless or incompetent worker carelessly or foolishly wasn't paying attention to a piece of tape or cardboard, rather than a very esoteric discussion of offset lithography methodology and common mass production issues.


Thank you for explaining! That makes a ton more sense. I believe your first hypothesis seems likely - "Undeveloped patches are a known problem in developing photographic prints, which would be loosely defined as an area of the negative that has been unaffected by processing solutions. This may have gone unnoticed and the image transferred to the plate."

The fact that the blackless area does resemble a fluid substance seems to point towards some kind of chemical resist with the negative as you mentioned. Considering the existence of the smaller partial blackless errors also found in the general wherabouts of NNOF packs, do you think the "chemical resist" hypothesis is still likely? I always wondered what sequence of events could produce both types of errors, and what this tells us about the causation.

We have the NNOF press run, with 14 affected cards. Two blue plate scratches run vertically down the uncut sheet, one goes down column 4, and is visible on the Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers, Zeile, Steve Olin, Ventura and Canale. The other goes down column 5 and can be seen on Steve Searcy, Bob Knepper, Tapani, and Assenmacher.
Another press run has small blackless areas and fainter blue plate scratches. You can only see the blue line on the Tapani and the Nolan Ryan. The blackless areas are small and located on the Biggio and Thomas (pictured below), Tapani, Morris and Lawton.
A third press run is similar but has even smaller blackless area on the Lawton.
A fourth press run has blackless areas that can only be seen on a high resolution scanner. I have examples from all four press runs if you would like to see scans.


https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads...s4vxzinay.jpeg

https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads...2gg4zqr2p.jpeg

steve B 08-05-2020 10:37 PM

Offset lithography and gravure are entirely different processes. Gravure is more like intaglio (engraving) than lithography.

The basics of it, that the black plate wasn't made correctly is correct.

In Offset lithography the blanket doesn't put the ink on the plate, but accepts it from the plate. The plate gets it from the inking rollers.
Ink fount/inking rollers/plate/blanket/substrate.

Here's the process for making an aluminum offset lithography plate.
With a few small changes this is what was done at the shop I worked for.
Like we had the negatives and masks taped together along with the registration marks. And our plates were a different color.
Not any big difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1-CCpvB74

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXA8WkEORM8




Quote:

Originally Posted by saucywombat (Post 2006129)
Having contemplated this issue in depth and given that a lot of information is buried under the sheer size and volume of the PSA Forum thread, I have copied a 2017 post I made there regarding the source of the error in the printing process.

ITS HONESTLY VERY COMPLICATED! And not in any way a sort of a Guttenberg press sort of affair, especially at the volume that Topps was producing what is essentially cardboard packaging. If you can take the time to read all of this and the related links, its very interesting in that you will see the issues that create every type of printing error that we as collectors find on baseball cards.

If you aren't interested in reading, essentially the Thomas and related errors come from either the chemical developing of the photographic negative of the cards for the black plate or the subsequent step of chemically etching those negatives onto the physical metal plate.

The physical metal plates accept ink from the blankets. Due to the issues with the plate itself, the plate did not accept black ink from the blankets (in the areas we find the errors). The plate itself literally is worn out by the production process and must eventually be replaced. Topps would have worn out many plates during any given years production. This wearing out process explains the slight variances between the cards.

IMO - Dave
************************************************** *********

Well first let me say that the four color printing process, a variation of gravure printing, that produces baseball cards, most commercial cardboard packaging and newspaper, is a process that an immense amount of variables play in to. A quick web search will reveal a great deal of scholarly (include complex physics) energy is devoted to perfecting the process. Think fluid dynamics, capillary actions, heat, pressure, static electricity, viscosity, paper quality, ideal chemical properties, speed of rollers, thickness or rollers, tension between rollers, etc.

It defies a short explanation so if anyone is so inclined, check out printwiki.org/Gravure
Pretty interesting

Another good site which shows common defects in the 4 color process (and basic catalog of every PD in the history of Topps) see http://www.offsetprintingtechnology....roubleshooting

Gravure printing involves at its heart the engraving of an image onto a printing plate. in the mid-19th century processes were developed to allow for the chemical etching of photographic images into metal. This allowed for the first time for photographic images to be accurately reproduced through press printing (as it was not possible to perfectly reproduce by hand on to the plate). Interestingly today it is possible to physically etch an image with digital technology which can eliminate the chemical process but not possible in 1990.

So at some point Topps photographed and developed the the "F" plate black image. This is when the most likely error occurred that produced the blackless area on the F sheet.

Undeveloped patches are a known problem in developing photographic prints, which would be loosely defined as an area of the negative that has been unaffected by processing solutions. This may have gone unnoticed and the image transferred to the plate.

Also a possibility is that a chemical process is used to etch the photographic negative into the plate. So a perfectly good image can be distorted if the chemical etching process does not go well. I think this is probably what we are looking at with the "F" plate. In this example of the process you can easily see how bubbling or streaking of the sort present on the "F" sheet are easily made during the application of the image to the roller plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwPVKJmElbU

The image in the video is known as a "resist". Problems that occur in rotogravure printing can include the resist not being properly applied. The video above shows a simplified process (usually the resist stays adhered longer to the plate for the image to be properly transferred). The resist usually requires a more involved process for stripping it away from the plate. Sometimes the resist (or parts there of) remain adhered to the plate. This is a very plausible explanation for the errors. To me it seems clear from the type of blackless areas produced and the quantity in which they were produced point clearly to an issue created by the production of the photographic image that produced the resist or its application or removal from the black "F" plate.


steve B 08-05-2020 10:43 PM

What I'm saying is that something - tape, a paper scrap, whatever that was opaque got into the machine that exposes the plate. and prevented the areas that got missed from being exposed.

Could it be that the person making the plate missed an area that big while using the developer? Possibly. Large shops, which would have been Topps or whoever they used might have had an automatic plate developer.

West 08-08-2020 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 2006279)
What I'm saying is that something - tape, a paper scrap, whatever that was opaque got into the machine that exposes the plate. and prevented the areas that got missed from being exposed.

Could it be that the person making the plate missed an area that big while using the developer? Possibly. Large shops, which would have been Topps or whoever they used might have had an automatic plate developer.


Very informative video in your last post. I often wondered how plates were shipped and packaged. I see the plates in that video are stacked in a package of 100 or so with opaque tissue paper between them that prevents light exposure from damaging the light sensitive coating on the plates.

I've always felt that the existence of the smaller partial blackless errors holds the key to understanding the cause of the larger blackless errors. For instance, there are up to 4 variations on the Marcus Lawton error:
https://i.imgur.com/bMUCnpq.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/0YjjlKA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Q4BYcKp.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/4y3B3im.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1U81Fni.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/W03ZeOy.jpg

Tapani:

https://i.imgur.com/dIjndQp.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/Pdw43c0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MgZ4uSI.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/bJtD4Ll.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/170GwYX.jpg



The NNOF plate blackless images of Tapani and Lawton I got from the web. I don't have copies of these cards but all the other cards pictured came from packs that also produced cards from the NNOF print run - partial blackless Frank Thomas, a blackless John Hart and Jim Acker, Nolan Ryan and Kenny Rogers blue line card, etc. Also, when Rookiewax on the CU boards first found NNOF in a case in 2009, that case also produced partial blackless variations of the Tapani and Lawto, so we know they are related. Not only that, but two of the Tapanis also bear the blue line (plate scratch) that is a signifier of the NNOF run. All cards have varying degrees of blackless. And if you look at the last couple Tapanis and Lawtons, you can see they have blackless areas that are similar but shifted down 1/2". The last images are cards I found that at first appeared normal (the error had been found, a repair had been made, new plates ordered up, and printing resumed). But on second look I found the most minute areas of missing black ink (see arrows)

So, would this evidence point more to a negative (mask) being damaged or the plate? I feel it is more likely that a series of plates were damaged or exposed. Is it possible that a series of plates that were stacked on top of each other were exposed or damaged in the same general area, with the top plate being the NNOF plate, the next plate down the partial blackless variations that I have pictured, and additional plates affected to smaller degrees. Also, we know that most printers printed all black ink one day, then a different color the next. I have found green sheet blackless errors that reside in the exact same location on the uncut sheet as orange sheet NNOF errors:

https://i.imgur.com/k7u385W.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/ZmVuUSS.jpg


Curious what some of our printing experts think of these variations.

swarmee 08-08-2020 06:11 PM

Your pictures aren't showing up.

West 08-08-2020 06:33 PM

Fixed, I think. I was trying to do it through Google Photos but linking photos through a message board doesn't work.

hockeyhockey 09-07-2020 08:18 PM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-...4AAOSwblBfQbVa

looks like a pack is for sale from a 1990 printing error box...if anyone here buys it, please share the findings.

lowpopper 09-07-2020 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey (Post 2015694)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-...4AAOSwblBfQbVa

looks like a pack is for sale from a 1990 printing error box...if anyone here buys it, please share the findings.


If everybody wants to chip in, I will buy this and open it on live stream.

hockeyhockey 09-08-2020 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowpopper (Post 2015703)
If everybody wants to chip in, I will buy this and open it on live stream.

$50 a person, 15 cards = $750. should cover the tax and shipping.

i'm in if 13 others jump in too.

lowpopper 09-09-2020 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey (Post 2015752)
$50 a person, 15 cards = $750. should cover the tax and shipping.

i'm in if 13 others jump in too.

Sounds reasonable. Let's see who else wants in. I'll do it 100%.

slidekellyslide 09-10-2020 09:34 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I found one of the partial missing ink Frank Thomas cards in my collection last year. Unfortunately I have no clue where I got it. What kind of value do these partials have?

lowpopper 09-11-2020 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 2016560)
I found one of the partial missing ink Frank Thomas cards in my collection last year. Unfortunately I have no clue where I got it. What kind of value do these partials have?

Those are becoming exceedingly hard to find. That is not a junk card

:cool::cool::cool:

ALR-bishop 09-11-2020 12:28 PM

Interesting card Dan. If the illustration above about how the defect occurred on the known affected cards is correct ( similar to illustration in CU. thread) would this be a transition error or a separate defect altogether ?

swarmee 09-11-2020 01:05 PM

I'd say it's a different error altogether, since all of the black borders are visible on the outer border. So it's really independent of the original issue.

ALR-bishop 09-11-2020 01:31 PM

Agree John. Maybe one of print experts can chime in

steve B 09-11-2020 10:26 PM

I'd have to compare to be more sure of a couple things, but
Short answer
It's a different error from a different black plate

Longer answer
If the obstruction on the original error plate was something like tape, It's possible the tape wasn't completely removed, and a small remnant was still there to obscure the replacement plate.
More likely if all the missing border bits fit inside the NNOF missing black area.
Far less likely if any of the missing bits are outside that area.

So it could be a follow on partial correction, or a totally different issue.

West 09-12-2020 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 2016885)
I'd have to compare to be more sure of a couple things, but
Short answer
It's a different error from a different black plate

Longer answer
If the obstruction on the original error plate was something like tape, It's possible the tape wasn't completely removed, and a small remnant was still there to obscure the replacement plate.
More likely if all the missing border bits fit inside the NNOF missing black area.
Far less likely if any of the missing bits are outside that area.

So it could be a follow on partial correction, or a totally different issue.


It is directly related to the NNOF as these were found in the only known case to have NNOF by CU member Rookiewax in 2009. These Thomas partial blackless are from the same print run as the other partial missing black cards (Lawton, Tapani) I have scans of in my post 12 posts back from 8/8/20. I have all the cards from this press run if you guys want scans. Morris and Biggio are also affected.
Additionally, the partially affected Tapani has the same blue plate scratch as the fully affected Tapani from the NNOF press run, just slightly more faded. You can see it in the scan, it is in the exact same location on his face (runs vertically from the “E” in Kevin up through his nose then through the top border).

https://i.imgur.com/dIjndQp.png
https://i.imgur.com/Pdw43c0.jpg

ALR-bishop 09-12-2020 04:52 PM

If it is a transition misprint how did it occur ?

swarmee 09-12-2020 05:03 PM

Yeah, correlation does not imply causation, as I learned in science. They could be an interim printing stage, but they're much more likely to be a replacement of the printing plates with their own flaws, IMO. Which those were then further corrected.

Add: I recall someone saying that Topps likely had 7 printing presses, with each needing a set of plates. Not sure how true that is, but this could show that one set of plates had one set of errors (regular NNOF and other blackless partial border/background cards), then a different set of plates had these errors you're spotting (two gaps Frank Thomas, Tapani gap).

West 09-12-2020 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee (Post 2017117)
Yeah, correlation does not imply causation, as I learned in science. They could be an interim printing stage, but they're much more likely to be a replacement of the printing plates with their own flaws, IMO. Which those were then further corrected.

Add: I recall someone saying that Topps likely had 7 printing presses, with each needing a set of plates. Not sure how true that is, but this could show that one set of plates had one set of errors (regular NNOF and other blackless partial border/background cards), then a different set of plates had these errors you're spotting (two gaps Frank Thomas, Tapani gap).

I think you misunderstood my post. I fully agree with you - these smaller errors were not “caused” by the NNOF. But they are closely related. By that I mean it is 99% certain that these errors were subsequent or simultaneously printed alongside the NNOF at the factory. There is almost no other way they end up next to each other in packs of the same case when you consider the sheer volume of Topps printing back then.

I believe it is possible there were a series of bad plates or negatives in sequence as I posited above in my post on 8/8. Would love to hear other ideas/theories.

West 09-12-2020 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee (Post 2017117)

Add: I recall someone saying that Topps likely had 7 printing presses, with each needing a set of plates. Not sure how true that is, but this could show that one set of plates had one set of errors (regular NNOF and other blackless partial border/background cards), then a different set of plates had these errors you're spotting (two gaps Frank Thomas, Tapani gap).

That was me, in this and several other threads about Topps production. That info came from a former pressman at Quebecor who was interviewed by SCD. It was 6 presses. I believe your theory there is correct. The question is was it a bad negative/mask, or an improperly exposed or damaged plate? We may never know, but I always thought the affected cards with minor gaps/border breaks might hold some evidence of causation.

steve B 09-12-2020 10:35 PM

On both the Tapani and Thomas partial black missing the missing area is completely inside the area missing from the NNOF sheet cards.

I really believe this points at a piece of opaque tape being in the plate exposing machine. When it was removed, a few remnants were still on the glass and messed up a second plate.
I suspect on the next black plate made.
It doesn't surprise me that the guy who missed a big piece of tape would miss remnants when he tore that big piece of tape off the glass.
The plate maker at the place I worked would have caught hell for letting either of those go to the pressroom.

hockeyhockey 09-23-2020 06:37 AM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-...oAAOSwiZpfVnjq

anyone familiar with these codes on the box? i recall someone on here saying that number tells you when the boxes were made and on what shift, and other stuff.

swarmee 09-23-2020 07:20 AM

It says it's a vending case. I don't remember any NNOFs coming from Vending, only very early wax packs, and I guess rack packs sent to military bases overseas.
So it's really inappropriate of the seller to put "Frank Thomas NNOF" in the subject line.

West 09-23-2020 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey (Post 2020012)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-...oAAOSwiZpfVnjq

anyone familiar with these codes on the box? i recall someone on here saying that number tells you when the boxes were made and on what shift, and other stuff.

951-90 is the product code for vending case. "130101" visible on the far right of the box in the first picture. That is the serial number (that would also be found on the bill of lading) indicating it was shipped to a buyer on March 1, 1990 by the first shift of that day.

Cases were stamped as the order was filled for shipping, by the shipping department. Not at the printers or after the cards went into the packs and cases. Based on what I have seen so far, I do not believe the serial numbers will be useful for finding the NNOF. This is not the same situation as the '89 Fleer Billy Ripken FF.

hockeyhockey 09-23-2020 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by West (Post 2020178)
951-90 is the product code for vending case. "130101" visible on the far right of the box in the first picture. That is the serial number (that would also be found on the bill of lading) indicating it was shipped to a buyer on March 1, 1990 by the first shift of that day.

Cases were stamped as the order was filled for shipping, by the shipping department. Not at the printers or after the cards went into the packs and cases. Based on what I have seen so far, I do not believe the serial numbers will be useful for finding the NNOF. This is not the same situation as the '89 Fleer Billy Ripken FF.

thanks for the info. as john said, not very cool to label it the way the seller did. but people do what they do i guess.

jakeinge 09-29-2020 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey (Post 2015694)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-...4AAOSwblBfQbVa

looks like a pack is for sale from a 1990 printing error box...if anyone here buys it, please share the findings.

There were two for sale. I just bought one. If anyone is interested in a live stream opening let me know.

hockeyhockey 09-29-2020 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeinge (Post 2021718)
There were two for sale. I just bought one. If anyone is interested in a live stream opening let me know.

wow, very cool. i'd watch.

slidekellyslide 09-30-2020 11:12 AM

Would love to watch you open the pack. Good luck!!

jakeinge 10-01-2020 11:15 AM

PM me your email addresses and I'll let you know when I plan on doing it. I will try to do it on YOUTUBE.

slidekellyslide 10-02-2020 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeinge (Post 2022132)
PM me your email addresses and I'll let you know when I plan on doing it. I will try to do it on YOUTUBE.

You should just post a link here or PM some of us here. I get way too much email and don't always check it regularly anymore.

Statfreak101 10-02-2020 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 2022394)
You should just post a link here or PM some of us here. I get way too much email and don't always check it regularly anymore.

Agreed.

jakeinge 10-02-2020 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 2022394)
You should just post a link here or PM some of us here. I get way too much email and don't always check it regularly anymore.

Done! The live stream will be at 8:30pm tonight on my Facebook page. Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/jakeinge/

hockeyhockey 10-02-2020 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeinge (Post 2022466)
Done! The live stream will be at 8:30pm tonight on my Facebook page. Here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/jakeinge/

working tonight, but good luck - will watch a recap if there is one.

jakeinge 10-02-2020 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey (Post 2022471)
working tonight, but good luck - will watch a recap if there is one.

I will post a link to the video.

As an aside, I wonder what the reaction would be in the hobby if someone were to pull a Thomas on video.

Statfreak101 10-02-2020 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeinge (Post 2022476)
I will post a link to the video.

As an aside, I wonder what the reaction would be in the hobby if someone were to pull a Thomas on video.

Awesome - looking to watching later as well.

deweyinthehall 10-02-2020 07:42 PM

Anyone here watching this live? I'm yelling "Tin Snips" at my monitor and cringing everytime the box cutter is run along the edge of the pack....


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