Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404254)

But suppose people don't care if it's fake, only what it looks like? Is it still material? Don't fight the hypothetical, assume my facts. Isn't that the analogy here at least to how many collectors now think? I would bet my life you could prove to many set registrants they had fake cards and they would not get rid of them, but would keep them because what matters to them is the registry ranking.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404261)

This is why I started at the beginning and used the example of an honestly listed card and the same card but untrimmed, both posted honestly and fully. Do we seriously dispute that the untrimmed one will sell for more and he seems a more valuable? No? Then we know the untrimmed example is worth more and we know exactly why nobody trimming cards is selling these cards as trimmed.

If the situation was completely different, then the conclusions would be completely different.

They only have the same value, as I said, if a company that people have outsourced their thinking too says it does because they are certifying it isn’t altered and is in Mint or Near Mint or whatever grade above an authentic altered that you’d like for the example. That is, if there is corruption or the grader is tricked. Again, I cannot think of an example where an alteration deceiving an authenticator or expert makes it no longer fraud.

The registry collector may be fine with it - because and only because their circle and buyer market also outsources their thinking to this corporation that has certified the card is just fine and believe the false certification. As to some of your prose, I am not sure authenticators are being tricked. I think they are, at least often, knowingly grading trimmed cards if they look OK, and giving the benefit of every doubt in any event.

Successfully getting a dishonest item by an expert does not mean that it is not fraud. If succeeding in the crime for some time before someone catches it is grounds for it not bringing a crime, we better go open the floodgates. I’m not seeing any logical way this isn’t fraud as neither justifications makes any sense.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404263)

Obviously I have believed as you do for all my time in the hobby. What I am seeing makes me now question it. What is anathema to me (trimming) seems a matter of indifference to much of the current hobby. And if that's so, we have to rewrite definitions of what fraud means in a hobby context. And who says authenticators are being tricked? What if they're complicit too, as I believe they are. My belilef is they made a deal with the devil long ago because high grade cards generate excitement, interest, and big bucks.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404266)

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404268)

A buyer who does not care about a fact cannot be defrauded by misrepresenting or omitting that fact. Materiality is an element of fraud. Does it lead to absurd results in the context of this absurd hobby? Yes for sure.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404271)

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2404277)

The one big problem I see with your argument is who is so gullible they think a vintage high grade card hasn't had work done to it? One of my favorite high grade T206 Red Cobbs has so small of borders Stevie Wonder could see it has severely trimmed borders. If it come up for sale it would bring silly money. Everyone knows and maybe 3 people care and weirdly 2 of them collect mainly PSA cards in high grade.:confused:

Nothing in this hobby makes sense. I used to care but after it caused me a LOT of problems I now just laugh and say nice card(s).

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404239)

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404239)

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404279)

You're still overlooking the most important aspect though. Is the trimmed card identifiable as such? Does it bear evidence of trimming? The card itself. Not some piece of paper shaving sitting next to it, not some eyewitness account of someone claiming they saw it happen, not even a signed confession. The only thing that matters with respect to the market value of the card is whether or not it presents as trimmed.



This isn't even remotely analogous to the topic of trimmed cards. There is a world of difference between a trimmed card and a counterfeit card.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404271)

Again, we all know exactly why trimmers lie and misrepresent the item. We all know well that two raw cards honestly presented, one trimmed and one not trimmed, do not have near the same value. It is thus very obviously material. If the preceding was not true, things would be different, but they are true. No amount of insisting otherwise changes reality.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404284)

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you. :)

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404286)

Again, I have addressed this from my first very post here. See previous statement. That people believe the Authenticator that signs off on a lie or is complicit in a conspiracy, does not make it not fraud. That would be utterly nonsensical. Getting away with fraud past an expert does not absolve the crime in any other case that I can think of.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404266)

If the argument is that 2 copies of the same card, one trimmed and one not trimmed and sold honestly will sell for the same price, well I’m sorry but that’s just obviously not true. There’s a reason I can win sharp looking trim jobs and not the sharp looking allegedly untrimmed cards - the price difference is enormous. We all know perfectly well that the untrimmed card will outsell the honestly listed trimmed card without the slabs.

It only has the same value when there is the appeal to the company’s alleged expertise, when there is a cover and the fraud has succeeded. That I got something by an expert is not a defense of innocence and no crime in any other area that I can think of.

That is why I said, several time in both posts, whether the graders are tricked OR complicit, stating either option. If the grader knows and is complicit that makes this argument even less sensible - a conspiracy to defraud among the grader and a trimmer to defraud is not a reason it is not fraud.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404287)

And I addressed your point. I said this hobby generates absurd things, and this is one of them. It is nonsensical. But it's true. What's hard for you is what's hard for me -- that people ACTUALLY don't care.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404289)

Go through the premises. I can only say it so many different ways. When honestly presented raw, the trimmed card is worth far less. We thus know trimming is material.

That the fraudster gets it by an expert and people then subsequently take the experts word does not make it not fraud. Very obviously.

Originally Posted by JollyElm (Post 2404267)

I don't think it's too far out there to suggest that at some point the grading companies are going to start purposely giving number grades to obviously trimmed cards (instead of pretending they're not aware of it), perhaps with a 'TR' qualifier or just the words "Evidence of Trimming" noted right on the label beneath the number grade. Seems like the logical next step for them.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404288)

You keep referring to cards "presented honestly", as if that's even relevant to its market value. A card's true history is unknown and unknowable to the market. This romantic idea that a historical record of everything that has happened to a card in the past somehow can (or should) follow it throughout it's life is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I could easily find you two copies of the same card in similar condition, one which has been trimmed and the other which has not, where the trimmed copy would pass grading nearly every time and the untrimmed copy would get rejected nearly every time. In this circumstance, the market dictates that the trimmed card is worth more than the untrimmed card. The market determines card values. Not you.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404290)

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404292)

When did I argue that card values are not set by actual sales? What?

Again, for those who cannot even follow a three to four sentence argument, I have written the premises and conclusion several times. The raw example is to set that it is material; as when honestly presented the trimmed copy is worth less. There’s a reason I win the trimmed sharp looking card and not the one that’s not altered. There’s a reason the fraudsters don’t sell it as trimmed. If it had the same value, why lie? It establishes materiality.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2404283)

Your long stated position that if PSA lets it by the card doesn’t bear evidence of trimming and thus it isn’t trimmed ins by meaningful sense because they missed it sophistry of the first order. You just go with whatever setup excuses fraud.

The analogy is a material fact being dishonestly presented. Change it to any exact setup you would like.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404295)

What's material for raw does not translate any more to slabbed. This is not hard to understand. It is not a valid proof, it is proof of a different proposition.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404297)

You still don't get it. PSA makes no such claim about whether a card has indeed been trimmed or not. They only make claims about whether or not a card bears evidence of trimming. You do understand the difference, right?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404284)

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you. :) Pun intended.

Or guy needs a PSA 9 for his registry. He'll pay the same for a PSA 9 even if you tell him it's trimmed. The flip is what he wants.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404290)

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley (Post 2404314)

PSA and other grading companies not being able to catch (or seem to care too much about) trimming or those that are doing it is PURE NEGLIGENCE.

Sellers and Auction Houses that deal with the people that are known to do so is PURE NEGLIGENCE.

The fact that we put up with people that are complicit (or as evidenced in this thread) or are apologists for this behavior is simply gross.

Just because you can sneak something by a grader doesn't excuse that it is still a really s***ty thing to do.

People that condone it or try to justify it as anything else are equally gross.

We should be way more upset about these things than we seem to be.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404329)

I'd still quibble with your premise that set registry owners don't care if they discover that one of their PSA 9 cards is trimmed, and therefore should've been slabbed as altered.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404329)

Instead of polling registry owners to see how many would give up the cards they knew were trimmed, poll them to see how many would replace the outed PSA 9 with a legit one, if presented with the option at no additional cost. Or ask how many would've paid the same price for the outed PSA 9 if they had known it was trimmed. Those kinds of questions are a better gauge of materiality for fraud purposes.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2404290)

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

Originally Posted by gunboat82 (Post 2404329)

I'd still quibble with your premise that set registry owners don't care if they discover that one of their PSA 9 cards is trimmed, and therefore should've been slabbed as altered.

Even if we assume that the registry owners wouldn't remove the PSA 9 from the set, all it proves is that registry owners will act in their self-interest and carry on the ruse for reputation and money, rather than take the bullet for the original card doctor and the corrupt and/or negligent third-party grader.

Instead of polling registry owners to see how many would give up the cards they knew were trimmed, poll them to see how many would replace the outed PSA 9 with a legit one, if presented with the option at no additional cost. Or ask how many would've paid the same price for the outed PSA 9 if they had known it was trimmed. Those kinds of questions are a better gauge of materiality for fraud purposes.

The counterargument that slabbing changes the perception of value doesn't negate the materiality element of fraud; it speaks more to damages.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2404369)

The reality though is that it's not just a few cards here or there. It's the majority of cards in every top registry set on the entire PSA registry. It's all a facade. Every single one of those cards are either laughably over graded, trimmed, or both. So learning the truth means that most of their cards are altered, but so are everyone else's. That's the rub. And that's why most of them won't care anyhow even if they learned it. You either play that silly registry game or you don't. And for those who do choose to compete on the registry, they're all buying flips, not cards. If they were interested in cards, they'd all be looking for centered copies with high eye appeal rather than these diamond cut cards with print lines that magically made their way into PSA 9 holders and 10s that have 1/8" between the card borders and the bumpers inside the holders.