LOL the hobby is a mess right now. Time to play Zevon's lawyers, guns and money.

I think the hobby has been littered with people altering cards more than just right now. Do you think it's more of a mess these days or just more in our face w/the information we get today versus, say, 30 years ago?

Altered cards are only part of the mess right now. I agree they have always been a problem, but the failure of law enforcement to do anything about it does to me raise it to a new level of concern. But I am also referring to all the craziness of the modern market, the influencers and pumpers, the vaults, the museum pricing on fixed price sites, the social media idiocy, the youtube videos, all of it LOL.

I feel every day that goes by brings more uncertainty to collectors' and investors' minds about PWCC’s business practices it’s beginning to pile up massively.

The concern I have for pwcc is how many collectors have moved their cards from their platform. I know several that have and I envision many more will follow. Too many other options out there.

What would you like law enforcement to do?

Guy buys oversized card, trims it to an accepted industry size , gets it graded, sells it. Where is the crime?

Did any of the sale ads say it was or wasn’t altered?

Brent certainly had a first mover advantage but not clear how long he can maintain it in a competitive market.

The best plot twist in this entire saga so far, for me, is learning that the SCR clown who shits on PWCC daily, calling anyone and everyone who deals with them unethical, actually had cards in the PWCC Vault himself. LO f***ing L

This guy should run for office somewhere.

Exactly.

I feel he is using their platform to buy and sell flipping cheapo cards through their vault for low fees/costs to prove a point that he and others can easily score making money on the ease and cheap on them avoiding shipping fees etc. He does the same poking fun at PWCC’s Vault Services as he does with Goldins Vault….it’s all about attention. It's comical all the way around.

Definitely caught me off guard when he said that. Just a wee bit hypocritical.

Load of fooey, but still interesting to watch.

The "experts" at the grading company did.
If you think this is acceptable....

Now that's funny. Like selling a stolen bike and saying that the ad didn't say it wasn't stolen.

Or a car with a turned back odometer, without saying whether it had been turned back or not. Nope, no crime there.

Stealing a bike is a crime though. Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer is also a crime. Trimming a baseball card is not. It's just a shitty thing to do because the majority of people in this hobby have decided that they don't like it. I don't think these comparisons are equivalent.

If the hobby majority suddenly changed its mind tomorrow by shrugging their shoulders and accepting the fact that most trimming is undetectable and therefore not worth worrying about, then there wouldn't even be an argument at all for charging someone with a crime. There's a fine line between someone leeching off of an industry by exploiting a loophole in the system and someone committing an actual crime, even if that leeching behavior is viewed as scummy and unethical. I've been saying since the beginning that trimming cards for profit falls under the scummy and unethical behavior bucket, but that doesn't make it a crime. It is not against the law to profit from being a scumbag, as evidenced by the fact that over priced magazine sales scammers still come to our doors every year with completely fabricated sob stories about needing "points" to get them into college.

I also collect rare casino and poker chips. In that hobby, everyone cleans and restores their chips with all sorts of various chemicals and oils. Many also remove the original casino inlays and replace them with new inlays. People even "trim" their chips by running the edges through a lathe to make them new and shiny again with sharp edges. In the comic book world, you can pay CGC to restore your comics. They will remove creases and surface wrinkles for a fee. The only difference I see between these actions and that of trimming cards is the percentage of collectors who give them a green light in their respective hobbies.

Yet, in this hobby, PSA does not disclose if a card was soaked in order to remove glue from the back, nor do any sellers I've ever encountered. Yet that is without question an alteration as well. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a card only to have it show up in a PSA slab with glue residue on the back that wasn't visible from the scans. Same with tape removal. They'll grade a card that has had tape removed despite the fact that someone either soaked the card in a solvent or used a scalpel and a hair dryer to get it off the card.

This is true.

Rolling back or "clocking" an odometer= trimming. To me, at least.

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

The metric is so low....ethics in this industry have always sadly been piss poor to say the least.

I agree with the sentiment the trimming is altering and should be disclosed. But I do spend a bit of time over on Facebook and a lot of the younger folks could not care less what has happened to the card on its way to its sacred coffin.

+1, to this entire post.

It would appear as though the FBI disagrees with you though. They had all the evidence they could ever need to bring charges against these guys, and yet they chose not to. I don't buy the arguments that it was just too difficult to prove or that it failed on some technicality.

OK let's correct some basic errors here.

If there was no possible crime here they would not have investigated, over a several year period, in the first place. If there were no possible crimes here, Brent's first attorney would not have advised him to cooperate and make restitution. There are definitely possible crimes here namely mail fraud and wire fraud. The problem was not the legal framework but proving it beyond a reasonable doubt with admissible evidence. What evidence do you think they had? The Blowout stuff, great as it is, and powerful as it is in the court of public opinion, is not admissible evidence in a federal court. But we've been there done that on this discussion and I don't have the patience to do it yet again.

And if you don't think the fact that a card is altered is material, such that nondisclosure is fraud, ask yourself, why doesn't anyone in the hobby ever disclose it? As they say in the law, the thing speaks for itself.

Can you imagine a listing by PWCC -- PSA 8 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, trimmed by Gary M. PSA 9 1952 Bowman Stan Musial, recolored. 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan PSA 10, broken out of an 8 holder and corners filed. 1915 Cracker Jack Honus Wagner, PSA 7, whitened.

By the way, the FBI does not bring charges, they investigate crimes. The U.S. Attorney brings charges, or decides not to.

Black Swamp Find?

I’ve got my doubts about the Black Swamp find.

Funny….Smart ass responses in leu of an answer….

Nothing was stolen.

Only a guy that “may” have trimmed a card within spec of accepted size. If it’s still within the correct size what crime was committed?

Undersized and graded is another story….

Wasn't the provenance pretty good? I forget the details now. I do recall some people being pissed when the family/Heritage held back huge numbers of them and later flooded the market, if I am remembering that part of it correctly.

In the hobby I grew up in, trimming an oversized (or pressed out and therefore oversized) card down to spec was never viewed as legitimate. Either edges are factory or they aren't.

A separate thread entirely, I just don't get the appeal of an uncirculated 110 year old card in gem mint condition. Much like the Tango Eggs find, they should trade at a discount to to the "real" thing.

Are you saying the cards in those finds were not legit?

Bullshit…. Absolute bullshit. If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone.

Just because most card collectors are purists doesn’t mean trimmers should be purists. Fact is high end collectors aren’t purists because they damn well know it’s going on and continue to foolishly pay absurd prices for the trimmed cards.

That said…. I am a purist and dislike trimmed cards…..but when I buy a card if it measures correctly I’m good as long as something isn’t obvious.

Sure about that?

35 years ago I ran into a huge dealer in central Ohio that had an Xacto table in his back room. He would go through boxes of oversized vintage cards and “clean” them up for sale. I about fell over when I saw his operation. Never bought another thing from him again…. He was trimming every single card that came through oversized.

He also ripped up every undersized card and threw it in the trash regardless of value.

It was a disgusting sight.

His stuff, his choice.

My choice was never buy or sell there ever again.

What you just described is a crime. In the scenario, the alterer is required to disclose he altered them.

I am sure it has been happening for years, and I am equally sure that most people at least of a certain generation -- apparently like yourself -- disapprove of it and would consider the cards altered even if properly sized.

Fraud 101 -- intentional nondisclosure/concealment of a material fact, in order to induce a sale at a higher price.

I have no idea whether they were legit or not, they have no appeal to me and just look odd in gem mint condition. The appeal of a pre-war card to me is the journey they have been on for over a century, give me a card that shows signs of use and no doctoring any day of the week.

I get that, but to me if a century old item has somehow managed to survive in untouched condition, that's miraculous and wholly apart from monetary considerations I would be thrilled to own it.

Like painting a house prior to listing for sale? Or having a badly faded car run through a detailer to fix the paint? Or having a Rolex movement serviced before sale? Resetting headspace in a firearm? Having a CD/DVD/BR resurfaced? Ironing bank notes with starch? Cleaning coins?

Every hobby has it’s maneuverers.

It comes down to caveat emptor…..

I do understand the appeal, it's just not for me. To me having a card that is in good condition after being in the general population for over a century has more appeal. I also like my Cracker Jacks with some caramel stains.

I don’t know what you’re arguing, but I do know very well from decades of practicing law what fraud is.

Then why waste time here talking…? There are a few hundred pages of evidence over on blowout of trimmed cards in holders. Some of those buyers can certainly use your legal expertise.

My “argument” is that a card trimmed to proper size isn’t fraud. It’s just a shitty thing to do.

My understanding is that the FBI investigation was not just for trimmed cards, but trimmed cards that somehow were slabbed and given something other than the Scarlet 'A'. If the trimmers were working in cahoots with the TPAs to have them turn the other way on the alterations, then that is another story and something that should be investigated and prosecuted.

Money, sonny. Lawyers don't work for free. Find me someone where I am licensed (CA) who wants to ante up my retainer and pay my fees and I will happily sue any miscreant. PWCC was very well advised. By repaying the complaining parties they headed off the potential charges. Many prosecutors will defer or pass on charges when the alleged miscreant makes restitution. It is a better outcome for the victims. I've been involved with a few cases like that on the civil end of it.


That's true, 100%. Fraud comes into play when that person knowingly sells that trimmed card without disclosing it.

Ahh, I get it. You're just taking jhe piss with us, right?

That describes many many many many dealers from back then to today. I live in a small rural area that has had very few dealers. I have personally seen or heard first hand stories about every single one of them "fixing" cards.

It just depends on if they are "friends" with the card fixer or not if you get offended. Seen it on here many times.

What is hilariously (and sadly) ironic is that PSA's business model and rapid growth was tied to the idea of eliminating fraud in the hobby by selling themselves as experts who would grade cards and detect alterations. (Beckett and SGC as well)

Now it seems that grading companies are the very source of legitimizing and encouraging fraud. A graded card is deemed pure. We're not supposed to question the card's authenticity, and, even if we do, we can't examine the card anymore because it's entombed in plastic.

Once a card is in that plastic case it becomes hard currency. If you can alter a card and get away with it, the reward vastly outweighs the risk - because there is no risk. So PSA has become nothing more than a money laundering outfit. You commit fraud, pay them a fee, and they wash it clean. Pretty damn clever.

I'm not a doctor (of cards), or a lawyer, but my question is who is the person that broke the law? If you have a card in your personal collection that you purchased in a TPG holder and you sell it, but it is later discovered that the card was trimmed, did you commit a crime by simply selling an unknowingly altered card? If it's the unknowing owner of the card that sold it, I fear most collectors that own purchased high graded TPG cards and ever sell them could be criminally prosecuted for committing a crime they didn't even realize was happening. If it was the trimmer who originally trimmed the card, how do you prove who that was, unless they were dumb enough to video themselves trimming the card, I don't see how it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any certain person trimmed a certain card.

I don't foresee anyone ever actually getting prosecuted for these crimes, because it appears that the person who could be convicted in most cases is in reality an innocent person, whereas the true guilty party that has committed a crime, is committing a crime that is virtually impossible to prove. If you extend the guilt to all people that were in the chain of ownership of the card, then you are going to have an awful long list of people and not very many left in the hobby that couldn't be named at some point in a court case.

In my opinion the true crime that was committed was done by the TPG company that gave the card a numerical grade. These companies were providing a service for a fee to detect these altered cards and have truly failed the entire hobby with the service they have provided. I look at one card in particular that I am personally experienced with, the 1968 O-Pee-Chee Billy Williams card. These were all factory mis-cut cards from the factory, not a couple sheets of them, but every single one of them due to their positioning on the sheet and the sheet cutting technology that was used at the time. PSA has however given a numerical graded to a handful of these cards over the years. I have personally seen and looked at a few of these PSA graded cards, and every last one of them is factory mis-cut short, along with every one of the hundreds of raw one's that I have looked at over the last decade. This is a case of PSA failing to do the job they were paid to do.

I'm not sure that the trimming of cards is more rampant in the hobby today than it ever was, the difference today from 1980 is today we have trusted? companies making huge profits off of collectors for doing a sub-par job of detecting these altered cards.

Agree with your first two points Spot on Point Sir Up. I do not in any way shape or form see that any crime was committed by the grading companies, zero, they’re just giving an Opinion.

All those things should also be disclosed. A car with original paint is worth more. Rolex with fully original parts worth more. New physical media in untouched unopened condition is always worth considerably more your examples all suck. I love the jack asses above arguing with Adam and Peter about the law. These two are both lawyers and know the law. Arguing with them about it is hysterical.

Good summation. My only question is whether David Hall envisioned this from day one, or it just evolved that way because it became obvious the business could not succeed without compromising with the card doctors, and ensuring a large supply of artificially high graded cards.