Yes, the mature thing is to insist everything’s peachy when the graders hop in bed with the guys primarily known for grading fraud. It is close minded to question this, or to think it likely anything negative will result. Disagreeing with your idea that maybe it’s all dandy and ethical is closed minded. Thankfully, you’ve shown me what maturity looks like with your wisened repetitive personal insults that go on for paragraphs and paragraphs without really saying anything different, because you can’t actually defend why this is a good thing. I’ve sure learned a lot today from your drivel.

For me, I just don’t understand why the claims agains pwcc gain more traction than those against others. Maybe the volume is higher and it’s justified I guess. Just seems like there’s a pick and choose that might not be justified.

You joined in 2021. Are you familiar with the whole history of PWCC that we've talked about here for the last 15 years?

I doubt there's a clean auction house in the bunch. I haven't seen most of them trimming thousands of cards though. PWCC has been documented altering more cards than probably anyone in hobby history. Auction houses do shady things if they think they can get away with it, like pretty much every business. PWCC is almost openly criminal and has committed stunning amounts of open fraud, each new one seeming to do little as people continue to buy and sell with them.

A light joke about PWCC does not mean that everyone or anyone else is clean. I'd love to see where I have picked and chosen.

I agree this is not an exemplary hobby and many players have had issues, but from my decades of perspective, and personal dealings over the years since he was literally just a kid selling cards for Gary, Brent is in a class by himself.

I think I messed up on eBay and bought a single card from PWCC. I don't have personal dealings with Brent, but the evidence that PWCC was running a fraud ring for years is absolutely overwhelming.

Observing this seems to really trigger some people.

There are innumerable posts about this, over the years, probably starting more than a decade before the FBI investigation and Brent's "cooperation." .It's a complex subject with many aspects.

Blowout made the best case, I think. Some of those guys dedicated insane hours to proving it beyond any doubt, over and over and over again.

But anyways, everything is fine and it's the people complaining about criminal fraud that are the problem.

Agreed on BODA. I got to know them a bit (though never their names LOL) and they really did this as a labor of love. Even if things don't work out on the criminal end, IMO they made an incredible contribution to the hobby, if people take advantage of the education they provided.

From day one, there has been a huge amount of cognitive dissonance over pervasive hobby fraud.

Agree. That’s my point. Seems like there is a blind eye to a lot of it. Newbie but there’s a lot out there to read.

If anything IMO, the blind eye has been towards Brent/PWCC. For years, people defended them.

They should have gotten more credit and less scorn from the people who stand to lose money from PWCC's downfall.

Do you have any evidence that PWCC has been falsely accused of their thousands of incidents of fraud?

Do you have any evidence a major seller, auction house, or hobby figure is engaged in fraud as widespread or serious as PWCC?

I'm not sure what your point is with your third objection of this thread to people pointing out PWCC's felonious history. You seem to keep implying that other people are guilty of the same or worse. Can you name them?

Not sure if you’re serious - REA, Goldin, back to Mastro, etc. All and more have been accused.

Yes they’ve all been accused, and all have done things. Mastro went to jail even. Mastro and Goldin are talked about frequently in the hobby. Guilty as they are neither have been caught altering as many cards as PWCC, the most publicly documented one. I don’t get your thesis. Because Mastro was scamming 20 years ago we shouldn’t talk about PWCC’s fraud ring today?

That's a very convenient service. Sounds like PWCC negotiated a great deal. If you were planning to get a card graded and send it to PWCC for auction, it's very compelling.

Obviously, if you wouldn't work with PWCC it doesn't matter one way or the other.

But since it has become increasingly difficult to find places to consign/auction raw cards, I could see this opening up a lot of new business for them....

You're the logician. There's a logical fallacy in saying everyone has been accused of something therefore they're all the same, but I can't immediately identify it. A form of black and white thinking?

That’s sort of what I think you all are doing. My thinking is pwcc is far from the sole or maybe even the main bad actor. Oh well. Be good, god bless, etc.

Straw man though. Who said they were the sole bad actor? And based on what exactly do you claim they are "far from" the main bad actor, you admit to being new to all this. Who was worse and why?

I think in this case it is the black and white fallacy (false dichotomy) then producing a false equivalence. The false premise that there are only 2 options, when there are actually more, resulting in an argument where the either/or thinking produces a false equivalence at the end.

"1) Auctioneers are either innocent or guilty.

2) Mastro/REA/Goldin are guilty.

3) PWCC is guilty.

4) Therefore Mastro and PWCC are equal and the same".

But I ain't a logician, I'm just a smartass with a copy of Aristotle ;)

When did anyone ever say that PWCC is the sole bad actor? I have argued they are the main bad actor now, in the present, because they are committing more active and recent fraud than anyone else in the public record. However, I argued this after you started complaining about a little joke at a fraudsters expense.

If the Mets complete this combined no hitter I’ll agree.

That's what I thought.

Mets did complete the no no so I won’t go into it more other than to say you’re funny.

Well of course, you can't go into it more because the written record shows absolutely nobody said what you are claiming people said.

Here is my question

CSG has the deal with EBay to be the authenticator of those raw cards above "X" dollars

CSG now has a deal with PWCC whom EBay unceremoniously kicked off their site.

I just find that dichotomy interesting

Rich

So your “point” is there are a lot places doing bad things but pwcc is somehow the worst of them? Just want to be clear.

It is very easy to find places to consign raw cards that need to be graded. Basically everyone will do that for you.

On a personal note, we sell thousands of raw cards every auction.

You make it seem arbitrary with "somehow the worst of them." There is much more compelling evidence of PWCC wrong-doing in the last 10 years than anyone else. Does that mean everyone else is innocent? No, but unless another company is simply MUCH better at hiding their fraudulent acts it's not mysterious why PWCC is currently considered "the worst of them." Of course there are competitors for the title like Coach's Corner, Crazy Uncle etc. but they are very small fish when you look at their numbers in comparison to PWCC.

My point was a short sarcastic joke implying that a card grader hooking up with the most famous grading fraudsters of this era is probably not a good thing, spawning rage from the apparent PWCC shills.

After your third complaint about this, I said that PWCC and their ring has been proven to alter more cards than anyone else ever has been proven too. I said they are the biggest publicly known and evidenced fraud ring in the hobby right now, today. This is why they get negative comments; massive fraudsters tend to make people who are aware of their fraud not like them.

This is not difficult. I have said my point very explicitly and briefly several times. Go do your homework or produce your evidence that any of this is untrue. Show us where anyone here said that PWCC is the sole bad actor in the hobby. I have no idea how you think that saying "PWCC runs a fraud ring" means Peter and/or I are saying that nobody else is guilty of fraud or other card-related offenses. That is not a rational argument whatsoever.

For reference, the comment that spawned this round of the discussion.

"For me, I just don’t understand why the claims agains pwcc gain more traction than those against others. Maybe the volume is higher and it’s justified I guess. Just seems like there’s a pick and choose that might not be justified."

a taste...if anyone isn't aware or is curious and/or too lazy to read!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1298835

The masses are not masses at all, rather a tiny portion of hobbyists. For the other 99% it has been BAU.

Not that anyone should care but the "scandal" did affect how I collect but I am well aware I am not representative of the overall hobby.

I agree with you Peter, but the hobby couldn't care less about this stuff. I don't see any downside for CSG - 100 people in the hobby will think the partnership is BS, and 10K more will place their first order with CSG.

And in case people are too lazy to read, here https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959 is a list of all the dudes who have been outed as card altering fools with mounds of evidence against them. For those burying their heads in the sand, please contact anyone on the list above for special orders. You want it, they will make it for you.

If an expert here has free time and can answer some basic questions for me as I was trying to use them for vault purposes Please give me a call. Pm me for number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know. Just how it is.

I thought I was done with CSG 6 months ago. But their recent changes to their flip and grading scale show humility and that they are listening to the customers. Their continued partnerships with major players in the hobby show initiative and drive. Their bandwidth to turn around the volume of cards that are heading their way via eBay on top of the submissions they receive is pretty impressive given how new they are. Comparing their ability to hire and train graders to that of their competitors leaves me scratching my head as they seem to be nearly an order of magnitude more efficient in this process. I'm becoming increasingly more convinced that CSG is going to jump into the #2 spot in the not too distant future. The vintage market will be more hesitant to adopt them, at least at first, but they will definitely become major players with modern cards very soon IMO.

I have about 150 cards that I previously had no intention of grading that I'll be sending off to CSG tomorrow. I really, really love their new slabs. Well-centered PSA 9s are about to get the middle finger from CSG, just watch. Soon, people will be cracking PSA 9s and sending them off to CSG, hoping for that 9.5 (or better).

I'm not sure there's a whole lot of mystery as to CSG's reasoning. They did the math and decided that partnering with PWCC would generate enough revenue and market share gain to offset any hit their rep might take by laying down with filth like PWCC. What other reasoning could there be?

But, of course a topic like the CSG/PWCC partnership is going to generate a lot of negative comments toward both parties. "But CSG hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place. If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong. People pointing this out - even sarcastically- are not misdirecting the conversation. They're taking it to a logical destination. How can you possibly discuss a PWCC/CSG partnership in any meaningful way and NOT bring up PWCC's criminal activities? You can't, IMHO.

I just bought 71 topps reggie jackson🤭

Has it been publicly announced anywhere by any of the other big three TPGs (PSA, SGC, & Beckett) and emphatically stated that they will no longer accept ANY card submissions from or through PWCC? If not, and any of them now accepts (or previously accepted) a grading submission from or through PWCC, you should all be saying they too are just as guilty as PWCC because they chose to do business with them, correct?

And by extension then, the bank they use is invariably aiding in their criminal activity, and should be considered an accessory to their crimes. And that goes for the landlord who leases them space, the cleaning company they may hire to vacuum and dust their offices, the store that sells them office supplies, heck, even the US postal service is guilty for continuing to deliver them mail that aids and abets their criminal operations. And of course, every single employee on PWCC's payroll is also equally as guilty of their crimes and should also end up behind bars. And you can go on and on to name every single person and enterprise that does anything that helps to keep PWCC's business operating, as an accessory to their crimes then. At least that is according to the logic being put forth for people on Net54 apparently.

"If you partner up with an enterprise that is a known criminal enterprise, you're no longer an innocent party who has done nothing wrong."

So based on what you seem to be implying for yourself and many other people here on Net54 with those words, is that when the FBI finally completes their investigation of PWCC and goes forward with criminal prosecution, we should expect an enormous number of people to end up going to jail, including all the people working with other businesses that supported and helped to maintain PWCC's criminal operations by offering and providing them their goods and services.

""But (enter name of any person or business doing anything with or for PWCC) hasn't done anything wrong - yet!" isn't a defense here. The "anything wrong" is partnering with PWCC in the first place.".

Those are your words, incorporating a quote from me, not mine. Maybe you can explain that to the single Mom with two little kids at home as she gets hauled off to jail because she needed the job and money from being a receptionist and just answering the phones at PWCC. Of course, I'm making up the single Mom being their receptionist part (even though it actually could be the case) to make a point and add a little dramatic effect. As you alluded to, she has no defense and should be considered guilty, just like CSG, right? So, I guess such a hypothetical figure as this single Mom could/would/should also be an eligible target for sarcastic comments from Net54's peanut gallery then as well. And therefore, I would be remiss and completely in the wrong for calling out any of those parties hurling sarcastic comments at the obviously guilty single Mom as being juvenile a-holes for doing so!

Chris, you're a good guy, and we usually see eye to eye on things. I trust you can see my logic and reasoning behind what I'm saying. And though you put forth the most obvious reasons for CSG doing this (money and market share), I was hoping to get into a little deeper discussion of specific points that may have swayed CSG to make the decision to go forward. Along with the possibility that there may actually be some good coming from this arrangement, such as a flat rate grading fee finally being seen in the hobby. Forgive my foolishness for actually thinking that such an adult conversation could take place on this forum in regards to such a testy and controversial subject, without it also releasing the juvenile trolls that just love to bark and bite at one's ankles.

It's the speeding ticket thing. "But officer, others were speeding too" is not a defense to the ticket. The fact that others maybe committed bad acts is not a justification for your bad acts. Mastro, Allen, et al. were criminals. Their criminality is not cover for others' wrongdoing. The evidence of PWCC running a shill bidding operation and profiting from trimmed cards is overwhelming, and no one else's bad acts can justify theirs. Like The Clash sang:

You're minding your own business
Carrying spare change
You wouldn't cosh a barber
You're hungry all the same
I been very tempted
To grab it from the till
I been very hungry
But not enough to kill

You either do bad things or you don't, period, and if you do, anyone helping is an accessory. Enablers grease the machinery of wrongdoing. Like the guy installing plumbing on the Death Star. Never lifted a gun, or hurt a soul, just went to work every day installing toilets, until he was blown up. Tragic? Nope. Without his work, the genocidal Grand Moff Tarkin has nowhere to drop a deuce. In this case, despite the abundant information about its new partner, CSG management has decided to get in bed with PWCC and help that enterprise prosper. CSG deserves scorn and a consumer boycott.

You guys keep talking about PWCC as if any of these allegations have been proven. You might be convinced, but the prosecutors asks FBI clearly were not. CSG probably couldn't care less about hobby conspiracy theories.

PWCC has been charged with zero crimes. PWCC is a big player in this market. That's probably all CSG cares about. I wouldn't even be surprised if they knew absolutely nothing about all the PWCC conspiracy theories in fact. That stuff is pretty deep in the shadows of this hobby.

It’s one of the most talked about things in the hobby. It’s not in the shadows…

A person who is guilty of wrongdoing and a person who has been convicted of a crime are different things. That PWCC has not been charged or convicted does not mean the mountains of evidence are untrue.

I was unaware of the "PWCC has been banned from PSA" conspiracy theory. Regardless, it's false. I know for a fact that PWCC is still submitting cards to PSA. They offered to send in one of the cards in my vault for a grade review 3 days ago (prompted by me, not them).

An example of the "burden of proof" logical fallacy, eh? :D

You, me, and countless others know damn well what the truth is. It doesn't matter who denies it, and it's a waste of time arguing with them.

I think we're moving away from logical fallacies and bad faith arguments into "straight up lying" territory now :)

Yes but it's couched in logical fallacy terms -- he hasn't been charged or convicted therefore he didn't do anything wrong.

BTW do innocent people choose to cooperate with the FBI?

Ok logical fallacies aside we have to agree with you that pwcc is the worst actor based on the number of posts here. Done and done.