You are using "authentic" to mean "not altered". PSA is not even accused of failing to screen out counterfeit cards. The cases of interest involve cards with alterations that cannot be discerned using methods consistent with affordable prices. The only reason Blowout can prove cards have been altered is that they were previously graded. Blowout is not identifying alterations that may have occurred before a card was first graded. If PSA can be shown to use reasonable methods consistently and objectively, they can defend themselves; if they can be shown to intervene in those methods to inflate certain grades in order to further their own interests, they will be guilty of fraud, or something. My guess is the former will hold and combined with "improved" methods going forward, PSA will avoid the fallout and continue to be viewed as "authentication experts", albeit not perfect at flagging alterations that are not discernable using methods consistent with popular prices. Meanwhile, the market will continue to sort out pricing in light of the inability of PSA to catch all alterations.

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I think we all know PSA does not do this:D They would be damned if they did!

does anyone actually believe, anything will change and/or come as a result of this lawsuit?

Authentic and not altered are synonymous. Authentic means genuine. Is that a genuine PSA 8? No it is not.

The defense of and excuses for PSA here are not just shocking, but I'm guessing self serving. They've rendered everyone's collection suspect by not fulfilling the promise they made to collectors...and I think a lot of people don't want to believe that.

A few thoughts
 

1 - At the very least this action will hopefully make the whole "slabgate" more visible to more people - we should all forward to local, regional and national media - some of them will pick it up.
2 - This will necessitate $$$ coming out of the pockets of some who have been lining their pockets for if nothing else their defense.
3 - Attorney question - what is the yardstick here - "preponderance of evidence", "beyond a reasonable doubt", or something else?
4 - Presuming something short of beyond a reasonable doubt - while I believe some of the accusations although true will be difficult to prove - others - not so much - The most glaring thing to me is that a company (PSA) who's underlying foundation is its self proclaimed ability to identify cards that have been altered, their charging fees to do so, customers reliance on the same and PSA's clear incompetence (in a best case scenario) in doing so!
5 - Even if some of what has been alleged is proven, it will be a good thing.

I agree they have become so, but they shouldn’t be, particularly for legal argument’s sake.

In my opinion, unless collectors/investors stop spending money with PSA and stop chasing the registry, not much will change. With a current backlog of a million cards despite the current scandal going on for nearly a year now, it seems that there is no appetite to curbing spending with PSA.

It differs for different sets.

The 40's-some more recent date depending on the manufacturer, those fiber defects are like a fingerprint.
I'd think that if someone had an altered card, physically entered as evidence (Hoping I got the term right there) And the before scan, that would be conclusive. The person who made the before scan would have no reason to add portions of the card that were never there AND to digitally fake the fiber aspects of the cardstock.

Many of the earlier modern cards were serially numbered from the factory, and while the look and colors can vary, it's not likely that the amount of picture visible along an edge would change based on the scanner.
That's what the before and after scans show, things like the sole of a shoe with some sliver of background between it and the edge of the card then later that shoe on the same card touching or partly cut away by the edge.
And again, there's no reason for the before scan to have been faked. Some show slight corner flaws, and the after doesn't. Why would a seller add fake wear to a card they were selling? The simple answer is that they wouldn't.

Get the popcorn out, sit back, relax and enjoy the show!

This should be a good one, but if you really want to hurt these companies, you have to hurt their wallets - Dont send in your cards, dont do business with them and make airtight cases with plenty of documenting evidence.

So true...

For those who want to clean up this hobby, we (ourselves) can do even more to impact this than the courts. Just stop submitting, and paying crazy money for microscopic condition differences. You're very likely getting an altered card anyway, so stop throwing money to the wind. You are only enabling and perpetuating the massive fraud. Once the money and profits finally subside, the insane levels of corruption will follow.

I'm certainly not defending PSA, but I don't consider authentic and non-altered synonymous.

I think PSA's three things in grading are:

1) Authenticity (the card is not a reprint or counterfeit, the card is correctly identifed). SGC, Beckett and PSA are reliable at this.
2) The card is not altered (or is altered and is dentified as such on the label)
3) Condition grade. Obviously, 2 and 3 are related, as only unaltered cards get a number grade and altered cards get a grade of AUTH. If you want to combine and 3 into 2, that is fine.

I, and many others think, that condition grade number is by far the least important of the three for graders. If graders can identify the card as authentic and unaltered, grade then is a matter of opinion (and, as resubmissions demonstrate, variation even with the same grader) and many collectors can make their own assessment. And if a grader can't authenticate or identify alterations, the assigning of conditions number is meaningless and irrelevant, as #3 is premised on, and comes after, #1 and #2.

PSA advertises and promotes and charges big fees that their services are for #1-3, so if they have mass problems doing #1-2 (and, thus, #3), complaints or lawsuits may be warranted whether or not there were bad or deceitful intentions by the company. Incompetency-- that they didn't or even couldn't do their charged for services-- in and of itself can be reason enough.

Obviously, some sellers were doing more than incompetence (in fact, they were very competent until they were discovered), but intentionally working to get cards misidentified and misgraded. That's when criminal charges can get involved.

I think you're splitting hairs, but if you want to put authentic and unaltered in different categories, have at it.

The point is, it seems, they're promising something they're not capable of delivering. Their own grading standards state...PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity. From this it can be inferred that every collector who's ever rec'd a number grade from PSA expected the card to be unaltered...and therefore authentic.

To me this isn't open to interpretation. An authenticator who can't tell if a card is original, isn't worth anything to me. What would you pay them for? A plastic case?

If this gets kicked to federal court then anyone can view the filings quite easily. They will all be on PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records). It is the site that contains information on all cases in the federal system - bankruptcy, civil and criminal. To use it you would need to register with a credit card. They charge 10¢ per search and the same per page if you look at a document. They just made the site more attractive by lowering the cost. If your searches are less than $30 per 3 month period they are free. If you have never searched a court database it can be quirky, but once you do it becomes very easy. I use it every day in my legal research work.

You're right. We are basically arguing the same thing, but you call it tomayto while I call it tomahto. We're both saying PSA is supposed to, by their own claims, be able to identify altered cards.

Agree...and regarding the lawsuit, let's hope they don't call the whole thing off. ;)

You seriously need to read the Blowout posts, look at the before and after pictures, and stop wasting our time. We are way past the “it might not be the same card” stage. There is no doubt.

The biggest change would come from the Registry. In the past a top Registry set would get kudos and impress collectors. As soon as the top Registry folks get laughed at for spending top dollar on altered cards the dominos will start to fall.

I am not impressed with any of the best sets on the Registry anymore. In fact the word “lame” usually comes to mind. Although maybe I’m the only one who feels that way.

Amen Tony......It won't, trust me. Can you hear Brent, Rick, and Joe O laughing in the background??

This is my belief as well.

Yeah, I bet it's a plate full of chuckles to know you've been sued, your business integrity attacked and, depending on the nature and extent of your insurance coverage, that you'll be dealing with and paying lawyers. I know my clients would consider it a real knee slapper, a true hoot and a holler. :rolleyes:

Sounds like fun, fun, fun to me, Todd. :eek:
There is no doubt whatsoever this suit draws a lot more attention to the issue issues and that can only be good.

.

Absolutely right.... Anyone still taking this tired stance is either blind, unreasonably biased, protecting his "investment", or simply in denial.

It's not just recurring print flaws, as he stated. It's the matching paper fibers and unique characteristics that are 100% impossible to duplicate. Undeniable and indisputable evidence of "before & after" alteration.

TPG and PSA apologists need to find a new argument. Maybe they can dig very deep to find a card or two that they can claim isn't a match. But that does not dispel or diminish the thousands upon thousands that are.

And you think they give a damn?? Why dont you check their bank accounts for better perspective.....They are all making a TON of money....

Yes I do. Having "a ton" of money does not mean you enjoy being dragged into court and paying for the privilege. You think they puff out their chests and brag about being sued for fraud at parties?

I can't speak for Joe, but Probstein and Brent, probably so....And they are still laughing...

What are they laughing about exactly and why are you so proud of them doing it?

I was wondering the same. I believe most of us find this lawsuit to be much funnier than they do. Even a sub-par attorney will cost them tens of thousands when all is said and done.

And after this civil suit is settled, they can look forward to the FBI's inevitable criminal charges. So they get to party on all over again. What a blast! :D

You and I are on the same page, but talking different points. If you have two T206 Speaker cards, or strip card Speaker cards, there is a chance they were cut differently and will not fit into the sleeve exactly the same. So there is not always a reason to suspect foul play because of air space. But for knowledgeable individuals, maybe they would look extra close at the edges.

Whereas, what you refer to in your comment above, "before and after" pictures of the exact same card will show variation and will have air space. I have gone over to blowout and seen some of their investigative work, and I am quite impressed.

The individuals saying that these companies are not worried and are laughing have no litigation experience. Even if these companies are confident that the claims will not survive summary judgement, they are still worried. The legal process is grueling and stressful.

Number 1: it is time consuming. These companies, which includes their officers and other employees, will have to devout time to discovery - giving discovery depositions, producing documents, answering admissions and interrogatories, etc.

Number 2: it invades on their privacy. The above-mentioned discovery will bring to light testimony and company documents, etc.

Number 3: most insurance policies exclude intentional torts. These companies’ insurance companies may file a declaration action against them and have a court determine whether there is even any valid coverage.

This action will not leave them. The individuals who control these companies will constantly think about the action. It is no laughing matter.

Number 4: I don't know of any companies or CEOs laughing and giggling about people finding out they're being sued in a class-action suit.

"Yee haw, this is great fun. It would only get better if my car was towed for double parking and I get a notice from the IRS that my taxes are going to be audited."

This is absolutely an idiotic comment by you....Me proud of them? I hope they get their asses whacked. I am just sick and tired of hearing people talk about potential damage that is going to come to these parties, and not a DAMN thing ever comes of it. Personally, I can't stand Rick Probstein, but he keeps on keeping on, and people keep on paying stupid prices for both of these guy's auctions...This talk about these two have been going on as long as I've been a member on N54.

It has been 9 1/2 months since this problem was exposed. The grading companies are doing record business. There could never be another vintage card graded and the companies would hardly feel the effect.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...trading-cards/

it’s the modern sports card market that’s primarily responsible for unprecedented levels of submissions and revenue.

“This rejuvenated segment of the market is more robust that at any point in our company’s history as younger generations of collectors are becoming more active,” Orlando stated. “In fact, around 80% of our approximately one million count backlog are of the modern variety at PSA and the vast majority of that 80% are sports cards.”

https://www.beckett.com/grading/guranteed

With that said, the number of cards Beckett is receiving daily has begun to eclipse the volume our staff can properly handle with strict guarantees in place. From invoicing, to card identification, to grading, to shipping…..cards are coming in at a rate never seen in our history.

I am definitely not "blind, unreasonably biased, or simply in denial". Neither, am I an "apologist" for the TPGs, or anyone else for that matter. I am however, interested in, as I believe everyone is/should be, protecting our "investment"; to do otherwise, in my opinion, is to admit that you are willing to throw away your money. I am not willing to throw away money, as at this point in my life, as a retired, disabled veteran who can't work, I don't have enough to throw away. I am simply a baseball fan who has been collecting baseball cards for 50 years now, going back to when I was 7 years old. It is what keeps me going in this crazy existence.

What I was trying to point out in my earlier post, is that it might be/could be/probably will be, difficult to prove to a court of law, to their legal requirement, that multiple pictures of a (non-serial-numbered) card, do in-fact, show the exact same card. I'm sure the court will require a subject-matter "expert witness" (probably a paper expert), to testify to that fact. I simply wonder who that "expert witness" would be. I guess you can call me a pessimist.

I have read several of the BO Forum posts, and agree that many of them seem to be correct in their assertions. There are also some that seem to be, to me anyway, less certain. I have not read all the posts, as there are too many of them, and I have neither the time, patience, or energy to attempt to do so.

Steve

+100

This is the generation who are OK with altered cards receiving a numerical grade.

Don't do the whole "younger generations are always worse" thing about this. There are tons of people regularly still paying full retail for pwcc/prob high end PSA grade 8-9 cards of post-war vintage HOFers that could easily be altered, and you know it's usually not going to be some 22 year old paying 1500 bucks for some grade 9 Hank Aaron from the late '60s.

Plenty of people of all ages are accountable for continuing to keep the grading companies (and the auction houses who have helped them) flush with $

"If you or a loved one has purchased a card graded by any of these companies from any of these sellers, you may be entitled to compensation. Please call our offices."

Are we taking odds here? If so, what's the odds that anything will be done about this? Even money? Or is that a bit too high on the odds?

How about the following bet - what will be the odds that after this blows over, things will be "business as usual" again? I'm putting 1/5 odds on that.

For me, I don't buy into the high grade bull shit. I'm just as happy with a lower grade card of the player than having a "9" or "10". Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate a nice looking card but with all the crap that goes on in this hobby, I wouldn't pay "bank" for any of those cards in slabs.

NM. Nothing will change. I guess that we just accept the new tenets and prevailing mindset of the hobby or get out.

Impossible to try to instill change when nobody wants it.

Quite a few posters sharing a brain these days.


No wonder quite a the "favorite" posters have stopped posting on the boards.

Much like the netflix documentary


" Save the hobby, and ____yourself"


Hard to believe the amount of wanna be attorneys , tough guys and knuckleheads parading around here lately. I guess it takes all type of people to make a world. 99% havent a freaking clue.

If I pay for a PSA ad, can we keep these posts in the watercooler section? I'm sure I could get a few donations. Your spewing on these boards does absolutely nothing. People here are still buying from PWCC submitting to PSA etc. Maybe if you insult enough people, there won't be a board anymore.

Nowadays when someone opens a pack, and there's a dinged card, they can send it back and have the company make them a new one.

That's not a pack pulled card anymore. It's manufactured to be in mint condition.

I do believe future generations of collectors will be OK with trimming, cleaning, color touch, etc. At the rate we're at, they really have no other choice.

+1 to that one! No doubt there's something bad going on. Also no doubt it's been going on forever and isn't limited to TPG's not catching everything they should! People have been altering cards for a very long time. Not condoning it. Just saying it's been a thing.

Would love to see one of the people you mention above actually post something positive about the hobby for a change. After all, collecting should be fun! Plus it may just keep people posting on Net54! Wouldn't that be novel!

Haha. Nice.

That's probably a lot of people.

Right, just stick our heads in the sand and think happy thoughts and all the problems will go away....

If only it worked like that.

Because posting here has such a profound effect

I’m always amazed at how many people operate on this level. My in-laws are a prime example. They ignore/deflect every hard discussion and convince themselves the world is kittens and rainbows. There are many more people in the world who aren’t strong enough to face reality than are.

I posted this on the Collector's Universe forum and the idiot moderator banned me 2 minutes later. I guess it's time for an alt account over there.

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

Sure it has always gone on. The difference now is that the money and stakes are much higher and the folks that have marketed us their protection services have proven to be better marketers than anything else.