Concerning Chris' claim to be "well within the bounds of hobby ethics," does any other auction house openly bid on items in its own auction -- I am not talking about individual employees bidding for their collections, but the house itself?

I'm confused. My post wasn't in any way about you. It had nothing to do with what you wrote. I read what the auction guy posted and couldn't believe he thought it was a good/proper thing. The arrogance. Clearly a case of him thinking everyone else on the planet is stupid. And buymycards' post says it all. Two thumbs up!

And as long as I'm being my cheerful and charming self, let me add that I really don't like this hit and run posting business, where people do a self-serving post and then announce they won't be back to engage with questions. It's OBNOXIOUS in my humble opinion. I am sure Chris is busy, but if he is too busy he shouldn't have posted in the first place. Besides, he isn't running Microsoft.

Darren, I'm sorry that I misinterpreted your post. But, since you post immediately followed mine, it appeared to me that you were directly responding to my post. No problem - all is good.

From an economic perspective, inasmuch as by winning the item the AH has forgone the right to collect the BP from the underbidder, I would characterize that forgone revenue as an opportunity cost "paid" by the AH to win the item, and add it to the hammer price when reporting the realized price.

Whether in fact AHs do this I don't know, but IMO if they did they would not be mispresenting the realized price.

I totally agree Pete. In the past when people employed this tactic of responding to a thread and declaring this will be their only response usually they are found to be guilty of something??

Maybe it comes to the same thing, but I think the accurate price would be the highest "real" bid plus the BP.

As someone who gets flamed for being a little bit in the spotlight I don't blame Chris (or anyone) one bit for speaking their piece and not coming back. Darren Hughes comments above just about make me want to puke. The WOW, oh wow...kind of crap is internet mob mentality 101. If Chris wanted to come back, after that kind of crap being said, I would recommend he not do it. There is no need to answer that kind of juvenile drivel.

I had a long talk with Chris about Rule 21 when I consigned my whole collection to them. While I don't think AH's should generally bid in their own auctions I trust Heritage and that is why I went with them (and they have supported our forum from day 1). A few comments from the peanut gallery is background noise to Heritage's dominance in our field. They are dominant because they are good and people trust them, me included.

So leon...When you sold your collection through heritage...regarding “rule 21”. Id guess you were offered “guarantees” regarding “expectations” of the final results of your collection.

And in order to provide you with such guarantees...id presume the house bid up many of your cards.

Whether you truly know or don’t know...or choose to admit whether this occurred or not...the likelihood is that it did based on rule 21.

So again nothing personal and I am not looking to start any fights here but I’m not sure how your response instills any confidence Regarding this situation?

Heritage
 

Heritage is dominant, so that makes everything OK. Just like PSA and PWCC are dominant in their fields.

Seriously?? I think every question, like those above your post, are valid questions that need to be answered.

Unlike you, not everyone has had a long talk with Chris, hence the reasons for the questions.

Instead of flaming those that have those valid questions, why not alleviate those concerns with what you have learned personally from Chris?

Personally, I think it's a joke, like a lot of things in this hobby, that they are allowed to bid on their own auctions. Like the current card doctoring/trimming scandal, this also needs to be cleaned up for the health of the hobby.

I stand by my statement that it's not a good look to refuse to answer questions after voluntarily posting. I'm not insinuating any guilt, to be clear, just saying it's not a good look and obnoxious.

Peanut gallery noise indeed lol. I guess we should be grateful Chris chose to address us at all and leave it at that, eh?

Your post, while it is fine, is also a bunch of made up crapola. There were 0 guarantees made and 0 reserves and 0 hidden reserves when my collection sold. So since the basis of your post is made up fantasy there is no reason to discuss it. Nothing personal you are just making up things that didn't happen to bolster your argument. Pure fantasy is what your post is.

He answered the questions and there really isn't anything else to say. They have mechanisms in place, big time, to prevent nefarious things from going on. It isn't a good look when there is an internet mob mentality either.

Soooooooooo then your long discussion with Chris regarding rule number 21 was to ensure that they would NOT bid on any of your lots that appeared to be bargains...in their opinions??

rarely respond in these
 

but think OPEN DISCOURSE is paramount here. I think some excellent questions are being raised and not sure why there would be an effort to squelch or disparage any of the various voices weighing in. For the record - 100% NOT a fan of ANY auction house that would engage in these practices - regardless of THEIR reasoning as it would be contrary to mine.

do agree
 

we should keep personal INSINUATIONS at a distance. They only detract from the mission...…

In any event I don't understand this: "He answered the questions and there really isn't anything else to say."

THE questions?

"They have mechanisms in place, big time, to prevent nefarious things from going on."

The MECHANISMS and defining of NEFARIOUS seem to be where the questions are.....

Since you seem familiar with their practices, and appear to be vouching for them, do they refuse consignments from card doctors?

There's plenty to say on very important topics, he just prefers not to engage obviously. And I am surprised you would characterize your own forum as an internet mob. :)

Are you new here.;):D

And his "juvenile" members being from the peanut gallery........

So as a consignor I can set my own reserve.

As the auction progresses and my reserve is exceeded, I am allowed to modify (ie - raise) my reserve higher than the existing bid if I work for Heritage.

Hmmmm. Wouldn’t that be considered an illegal form of shill bidding?

No, the discussion was 0 reserves, low starting prices and I wanted everything to sell. Their rules are their rules. Please quit making up fantasies and fairy tales.
And I hope every member can see why arguing on a forum is silly. People like yourself spin and make stuff up. It is outrageous and I wouldn't want any friend subjected to it. And yes, I consider Chris a friend....along with almost every other advertiser :).

Some of our members can 100% act like a mob and WITH NO regard for facts. Just look at the way the other Peter is spinning things? Seriously?

It is as if I said he stole something and the fact he won't answer a question makes him guilty? That is the kind of nonsense I am talking of.

And btw, I am out of this thread too unless I feel I need to come back. LOL

+1
 

+1 (though I think that the REA / LOTG policy is best)

It doesn't seem anyone can identify another AH that bids on and wins lots out of its own auctions.

You mean besides Mastro?

Currently active.

This topic has come up before in other threads, but I have never been comfortable with an AH competing against its own customers by buying on the house account lots the AH feels are undervalued. A consignor can protect him/herself via a reserve price, and it seems to me that if the consignor is okay with letting the item go at a "wholesale" price, then the party that should reap the benefits is the AH customer, not the AH. The primary business of an AH is auctioning items, not buying undervalued items in its own auctions. And the profitability of the AH is directly tied to the business its bidding customers give them. So would it be so bad once in a while if a customer walked away believing he/she got a bargain?

I remember recently when I bought an item from a major AH. The item went for significantly less than both I and the AH thought the item was worth. But it met the reserve and I got it. The owner of the AH told me after the auction that while he felt bad his consignor did not get a stronger price, on the other hand he felt happy for me that I was able to get it at that price. That auction house does not buy on its account, and at least it could say its consignor's loss was its bidding customer's gain.

As others have mentioned I agree it seems inherently unfair to have the auction house competing against bidders that have to pay a 20% premium. I'm sure there are many lots on Heritage I could win and flip for a profit if they'd waive that premium for me.

But I do respect the fact that they disclose and defend the practice. At least it is well known, and does help to protect consignors against the risk of having a lot sell well below market value.

From my understanding each HA person bidding, and winning, has to pay all BP.
They have profit centers, ya' know. And yes, I guess it does help consignors. Bummer....
I have won plenty of items from HA since selling my collection. I am at a loss in thinking why anyone would expect a bargain at an auction. But it seems as though some feel they are entitled to them. Hey, I like a great bargain too, I just don't feel entitled to them.

The HOUSE does not pay BP, or if it does, it pays it to itself.

I never said they're not entitled to make a profit, or that I expect a bargain from an AH. I still bid with Heritage despite this policy, as it sounds like many others around here do.

It actually makes sense to me, as the buyers in this hobby, and probably any hobby for that matter, tend to follow the auctions with the best stuff. When deciding where to consign, a policy that offers a bit of insurance against an item falling through the cracks and closing well below market value might be the deciding factor in where to send it.

Certainly disclosure goes a long way toward addressing notions of unfairness. I do not believe disclosure, though, to be an end in and of itself, as in the real world many bidders do not read auctions rules. So in those instances when the rule varies significantly from industry norm, I question whether an AH should not do more than bury the disclosure in the fine print.

In the case we are discussing with Heritage, almost certainly they do factor in the forgone BP when deciding how high to bid. If they win the item, at say $1,000 where the underbid is $950 and the BP 20%, the price they "paid" was $1,190.00, where $190 of that is the BP on the underbid which they chose to forgo. The price to you at the $1,000 hammer would have been $1,200, so in this example you would have been at a $10 disadvantage (less than 1%).

Yes they do. They forego the BP that the underbidder would have paid.

Not saying the practice is right, but they do indirectly pay the BP.

I see the point you and Corey are making about the economics. But I continue to think the concern about the house competing with its customers is a valid one from an optics viewpoint.

It's more than just optics. Too much bad can go wrong. Some random thoughts that come to mind:

• Joe average bidder has to add a 20% premium
• HA employees have to add a 20% premium if they are bidding for their own collection
• The AH can bid on the same item at a 20% discount, which reduces the corporations profit for shareholders
• 20% profit for many business is a reasonably good markup on a wholesale price
• There is no wholesale price, as there is no "cost of goods" to the AH
• Using these rules, too many nefarious opportunities can exist for the auction house, such as:
  • Descriptions can be written to limit maximum bids, if the AH really wants to up the item
  • Descriptions can be written to limit maximum bids, if an employee collector really wants to up the item
  • Scans can be tweaked, the scanner glass not cleaned and leave a spot, or other games can be played with the item
  • No "purple sticker" (or type of equivalent) would be given to an item that may deserve one
  • Once the AH owns the item, improved descriptions can be written, or the item can be saved for, say, a "Platinum" type of auction.

I am in no way saying this happens at HA, but it certainly opens up too many possibilities for profiting at the consignor's expense at any AH.

Bottom line, if you are an AH, take the consignment, promote the sh*t out of it, and sell it to the highest bidder on the open market. That is your job. It is not to undermine a lot to resell it or undersell it when you don't own it.

This is my last comment on this issue, and I will not be taking any more questions.
:mad:

BP
 

When the auction house purchases an item, the auction house TEMPORARILY forgoes the BP, until they place it for sale again, and when it sells, they will regain the BP.

Are you freaking kidding me?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some guy comes on here to throw his crap around, basically saying that they can rip off the collectors you supposedly care about, and me responding to it makes ME the bad guy?????????????????????? What the hell fantasy world do you live in, Leon????????????? Since you personally attacked me, I'll return the favor, you feeble-minded moron. Ball up your fist, grease it up real good, and shove it straight up your f_cking a_s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My point proven. Thanks for blanking out part of the f bomb so I didn't have to. :)

Please welcome our new mascot:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...poo%20toss.jpg

But I digress.

Corey has it spot on: the AH foregoes the BP it would have made otherwise, so while there is no money exchanged it effectively loses the BP on the sale if an item is picked up for the house. And as anyone who has tried to profit from flipping knows, there are no guarantees. I do my best to find bargain lots I can flip. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. It isn't an exact science. HA also has to pay to store, insure and then for staff time to relist an item. They are slow as molasses to work a consignment through anyway, so those costs are real, even if they are hard to isolate.

As for the optics, I don't see the problem. I find HA to be one of the more consistent auctioneers. HA tells you exactly what to expect right up front in its rules. Whenever I bid on their site I have to tick a box acknowledging the auction terms, which are linked right there, so there is no reason to cry foul when they do what they say they are going to do and give you the chance to read their rules every time you bid. If I don't agree i can skip their auction. If enough people skip their auctions, maybe they change the rules. But the vitriol here, come on guys, we are better than that; it's just a hobby. It isn't supposed to be a cause of stress.

This is why we don't allow employee bids. (Or "Auction house" bids)

Perfectly said.

Scott, I can only go from my experience with HA, but they have always allowed me to review the copy on my consignments and they have never rejected an edit I suggested. I write that review provision right into the terms of my consignment. I am sure they would veto it if I wrote something completely out of left field, but I wouldn't expect any AH except eBay to put up with that.

Yet again, if what Heritage does is fine, why doesn't any other auction house bid on its own lots, competing with its customers?

And to the folks who are good with Heritage's bidding practices, what do you think they should do when they learn (as with the Bobby Hull) that they've auctioned an altered card?

The internet lynch mob wants to know. :)

:D:D:D:D:D

No, I'm not. When I was in hot and heavy acquire mode, I would never pay 25% vig to anyone anytime to buy from them EVER for anything PERIOD what a total JOKE.

To think they would answer is foolhardy. THEY are in on it and don't give a flying F... But you knew that, that's why you asked twice. The silence should tell everybody everything they need to know about them.

The Hull is just one of 100,000's of thousand these scabs are selling. They all cater to the trimming crowds o what would you expect? Them to care :D:D:DThey are laughing all the way to the bank like so many others

If they won't answer maybe the people vouching for them will answer? It's a simple enough question, it's now been established they sold a butchered card for 70K or whatever it was. What should they be doing about it? And if they aren't doing anything, is that deserving of criticism?

I kinda remember when Huggins auctions was outed as allowing employees to bid on their auction items...they changed their policy.

Personally I think this practice is BS and I will never bid in an auction where this is permitted let alone stated in their "rules."

As one of the "biggest and best" auction houses on the planet...Heritage obviously should do the right thing regarding the Hull card.

Will they? Who knows?

lynch mob member #2

Have you tried emailing or calling Chris Ivy? That is what he said to do with further questions.