This is also very true for the green Cobb as well. VERY difficult to find nicely centered with nice coloring and registration in ANY grade.

I voted Cobb, however, I would LOVE to own a '52 Mantle. I think both will do well over time.

I would think the Mantle 52T would be more sought after Because of the consistent trend of "Main Eventing" in various Auctions. Sure, Cobb is definitely a household name too, but a lot of baseball fans tend to think of names like Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Gehrig, etc.

What a great card. It would have been a perfect card for me (and I suspect many other collectors), but around 20 years ago, when I had more and it went for less.

I agree 100%. But, at the end of the day, this is pretty subjective stuff: cards, artwork, cars, women....and so on and so forth.

{This was intended as a response to MVSYNC. Sorry.}

That is an unbelievable 3, imo. Is there something severely wrong with the back or something else we can't see in the scan?

When I first seen it, I was thinking 6-7, not 3. :confused:

While still extremely visually appealing, I see a faint amount of paper loss on the upper right corner.

and a faint crease horizontally through the ny in micks hat. nonetheless a gorgeous card!!!

You guys likely have better eyes than me and more experience, so I'll have to take your word for it that those are the reasons as I can see neither of those.

Imo, this is a clear, buy the card not the slab situation.

Here's the thing...if we're talking purely for an investment. It's all about supply and demand. Both cards have great demand, but there's a far larger audience for the Mantle, it crosses over outside of the Hobby...Yes there's less green cobbs, but he has a specific niche audience. And this is coming from a passionate T206 collector.

and it appears creasing/wrinkling mid neck.

No paper loss on the corner, but there is a slight wrinkle going through the hat area - very good eyes there:) Got very lucky when I was offered the card about 1.5 years ago, and I would personally rather have a card with that flaw where most are trying to guess what the issue is versus a card that is tilted/80/20 centering, corner has been chewed off... without that crease the card is probably a 4.5/5 or possibly better and now a $100k card and out of my price range.

Back to the original subject at hand between Cobb and Mantle. Both were great players and in different respects. What I am curious about is why several people commented "once the baby boomers die off there will be no interest in Mantle since nobody will have seen him play." If that is the case there should be nobody around now that wants a Cobb, Wagner, Young, Walter Johnson... using that rationale.

Mantle is baseballs version of a legend like Paul Bunyan -how fast was he, how far could he hit it.... add to that he has the BEST World Series numbers and records and it only cements his legacy.

Now that we solved that issue we can argue which is his true rookie :D


http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/...pssf67zvr6.jpg

Vcp Average sales for a 4.5 is 37k, and 5s are 60k...but I guess anything is possible

Uhh no, you have the "rationale" backwards. There was NO organized hobby contemporary to all the Dead Ball Era players you listed, hence, from day one of the modern hobby, those players have been highy venerated REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT NO MODERN COLLECTORS SAW THEM PLAY. That is not the case with Mantle. So assuming it will be the same for The Mick as it has been for past legends is purely speculation, and NOTHING more.

VCP shows that but I know of private sales for high end 4.5's and 5's and they are at least double those prices. I know of a 4.5 that has been offered close to $100k and a 5 over $100k - 100% legit sales.

As many folks here know most major sales are done privately and never see VCP. I have sold 4-5 Mantles recently and All were done privately all above the VCP high prices for PSA 8. VCP is a good barometer for prices, but most collectors know that a ton of great cards change hands before they are offered to the masses - collectors who really want a card make it known to sellers/dealers ahead of time and when the card comes up it is sold and for huge $$.

lots of "alternative facts" being slung around.

Then I need to talk to you. I have been trying to buy cards and have been running into a brick wall. They seem to want to go to auction houses rather than sell privately for fear of leaving dollars on the table.

Hold on...
 

I feel some folks are putting words in my mouth.

My post posed the question, "What might happen as baby boomers pass?" Notice I said might. I also said, "He will always be top tier icon player, but might his pull subside?" Notice again I said might.

I never said Mantle's cards were going to drop in value. I never said Mantle's card would be a poor investment. I never said Mantle's popularity will decrease. Heck, they weren't actually statements, they were questions centered around the word, "might."

What words are being put in your mouth??

Reading through the thread again and disappointed at some of the attitudes expressed within. First and foremost this is a hobby for fun, and some are fortunate to have made a few $$ from it. The conversation was which card wiukr you rather have a green Cobb or a Mantle rookie which then turned into a "Mantle is overrated" and "where were his RBI's" diatribe along with "when the boomers die they will come crashing down in price."

If that happens the rest of the card market will fall with it - high tide raises all boats and low tide lowers them. Not to mention the standard being applied already shows the Mantle is a better card in this comparison. You are having a PSA 6 Cobb compete with a PSA 3 Mantle to make the argument - if you have to use a grade that is half of the Cobb to make it an even comparison what does that tell you right there.

At the end of the day Cobb, Ruth, Mantle... are all great players and have great cards. Don't know what turning this into an episode of the View is going to accomplish outside of making the thread rival a PWCC part 3 thread in terms of hits and pages in length.

If 10 years ago, if the question was asked about the Sporting News Ruth or Gehrig Exhibit, the same argument would have applied. Mantle is worth more in the same grade. However, those cards have been better investments.

We have seen several top post war cards take big drops in price. Has that killed the market? The Mantle market is being driven by investors. What happens when they sell? There is a bubble in that market. 52 Mantles in the lower grades have also dropped recently. They will be the ones hurt most if the bubble bursts. The 52 Mantle will always be the most valuable post war card, but that doesn't mean there aren't better cards to invest in.

I think that maybe 52 mantle vs 1914/15 Cracker jack Cobb of equal grade would have been a better debate.

Actually your first premise is a bit off. It is a hobby for fun but the question was concerning investment..... the first sentences stated..

If you had to chose an investment card to hold for 5 to 10 years which card would you chose. Let us assume you have 20,000 dollars to spend and you spent it all on one card. The goal would obviously be to pick the card that has the least amount of chance to go down, and the highest up side for profit.

indeed

The 52 Topps Mantle is arguably the face card of the hobby

Very arguably, as when someone hears I enjoy the hobby, they ask if I've had a t206...Wagner. now its the Same series as the Cobb, but their second question is usually about a 52 mantle.



Over the last 10 years the Mantle has performed better at almost a rate of 2-1

I have skin in both games, I cant help but feel in the current market that the Mantle has really peaked, whereas the Cobb has room to grow.

Leon - I understand the premise perfectly and have addressed it as such. I have $$ invested in both Cobb and Mantle, and as most collectors will tell you, along with your typical everyday person who knows sports but maybe does not collect,
the Mantle card is iconic and the face of baseball cards.

As far as which one will elevate more in the future it is like looking at a pair of stocks where one is a blue chip that has had a huge run up(Apple) versus a young start up with less stability but potentially has a huge upside. Which one do you pick? In my opinion it is like choosing a date between a hot brunette supermodel or a hot blonde one. If it was up to some members of the message boards it would turn into "that one has a mole on her chin or her eyes are too close together." Most sane people would not complain at all and simply realize that at the end of the day they are dating a hot super model. Amazing what so many conversations on here turn into rather than enjoying the hobby - investment or no investment.

I own every standard issue mantle you can imagine in addition to others like Stahl Meyer, Topps Super, Dan Dee, etc. I do not own a '52. Not because I can't afford one, but rather, I just don't think the value is there. I waited too long to buy it. I think that there are way too many out there (10 plus on eBay at all times and minimum of 3 at every major auction). Maybe I am being short-sighted, but I don't want to pay 30k for a beautiful 3 like KendalCat's (although if I were ever to buy one, KendallCat's would be the one I would want) because I just can't see the day where a mantle 3 would ever sell for 80 or 90k. I think we have seen a huge bubble and it is currently at peak value. At least for a very long while. I agree that it is an iconic card and the face of our hobby (along with Wagner). I also get its crossover appeal with non-collectors. I think it is a safe investment, but I don't see the lower grades ever getting a ton higher. As for high grades, will the 8.5 that sold for a million ever sell for 2 million? I don't see it.
I am particularly interested in this string because I am selling my mantle collection in order to pursue rarer issues in the pre-war world. Not for money, but because my collecting interests have changed. I prefer to buy a Rose Cobb over a Mantle 3 for the same price. Of course, the supply is lower, but so is the demand, so it doesn't necessarily mean it is a BETTER investment. It is just my preference. I would much rather buy Probstein's 1914 CJCobb over a Mantle 3 ANY DAY. I like the card better, it is far more rare, and they are comperable in price. I also happen to think it has more long-term growth potential. Most of you know precisely the card I am referring to because when a CJ Cobb goes on eBay, it is a big deal, unlike the 52 mantle.
Finally, I read some guys mentioned Ruth as the best name in the hobby. I disagree. Ruth is larger than life, but his cards leave a lot to be desired. His cards from the 20's are boring, small, black and white caramel cards, strip cards, or promotional giveaways. I can't think of any really nice Ruth cards from the 20's, which was the prime of his career. It wasn't until the end of his career when nice looking Goudeys came out, but those are not particularly rare ether. I just don't find Ruth's cards to be attractive enough to get the value a player of his stature deserves. In contrast, Cobb's early cards are gorgeous. Ruth has no cards that compare in beauty to a T206, E95, t227, T3, Cracker Jack, or other spectacular Cobb cards. They lack the color and beauty of the 1907-1915 Cobb releases. Just my opinion. I have plenty of Ruth cards, but I don't enjoy them nearly as much as my Cobbs.

I have solar panels that are paid for. Bring me a nice psa 6 green cobb or psa 3 52 mantle and they're all yours.

My personal preference on this one is for the Mantle but I wouldn't be surprised if both did well long term.

I do not own a 52T Mantle either. At some point it might be nice to have one because it is an iconic card but I agree completely with you about the long term outlook. Demand is high for them but clearly it has cooled off and that can be seen frequently for prices for the 7s and lower. I see prices on those examples pulling back more as time passes. Who knows what the 8s or higher will do. That is a more thinly traded market but if prices moved up I would not be shocked.

the
 

cobb is great.....but , the 52 topps is an "iconic" card......top 3 in the hobby...

it far exceeds even collectors.....non collectors even "heard" of it.....more cards exist of the mantle, but demand is/will be greater..larger market and demand..not many non collectors even "know" what a green cobb looks like...

t206 wagner, 52 mantle 33 goudey ruths are "most recognizable" with collectors and non collectors...

a 52 mantle is a 52 mantle! and its not even his true rookie, but it doen't matter...

I am a 206 nut, but 206 green cobb pales in comparison to a '52 mantle:D

While i am fortunate enough to own a decent mantle i agree it is way overrated compared to some prewar. At equal vallue like orlando would take the cj cobb every time.

Do people that do not collect baseball cards matter in the equation about pricing of a particular card. They have no impact on supply, or on the demand.

I recognize a lot of cards, but I do not buy them.

To me, regardless if a 20 year old video gaming college kid or a 70 year old retired lady know what a 52 mantle or a cobb looks like, how does that play into the pricing.

There's just something more to the Mantle, its the key card for topps first set, its Postwar America, etc... For better or worse, the Cobb now comes from a time period that the Average American really knows little about... Granted the average American isn't in the market for either of these two cards.

Phillip, it does matter. The demand for '52 Mantles isn't all coming from collectors. In fact, I would venture that a large percentage of 52 mantles are bought by people who aren't serious collectors. Guys buy that card as a status symbol. Actors,hedge-fund managers, bigwigs, they buy the card because it is perceived by non-collectors as the card to own. Nearly every collector on this thread has either said they would prefer the green Cobb or that it is a close call. Real collectors respect and want both pretty equally. So why isn't the demand nearly as high on the green Cobb? I think it is in large part due to non-collectors or fringe collectors.
As I mentioned earlier, I would have liked to have seen the question posed as a '52 mantle vs an equally priced Cracker Jack Cobb. I think the majority of serious collectors jump all over the CJ.

Tried deleting the double post, but can't figure out how too. Sorry

Yes. I am aware of this. I would argue that if you do buy a card, you are a collector, even if you only have that 1 card. You cross from the person that doesn't care to one who has influenced the market and are a part of it in some way.

What I read here, is how iconic it is and how others that will never buy one know what it is not what the investor class is. If you are investing 20k to 500k on a baseball card, are you not going to do any homework to find out what other cards may be more investible before purchasing? Perhaps if you bought one, you may also buy the other. To assume that no one who buys the 52 Topps mantle does not know about a green Cobb is presumptuous. Mantle is a legendary Yankee. The Yankees have a huge following. There are a lot of people who also know who Ty Cobb is. Detroit baseball goes way back also.

"To assume that no one who buys the 52 Topps mantle does not know about a green Cobb is Presumptuous."

Well, it's a good thing I didn't say that. You are speaking in absolutes (and double-negatives). I wasn't not ;).

I've always preferred more unusual cards...while I do covet a 52 topps mantle...i will likely never own one! I'll stick to my ruths...and my cobbs...and my 51 bowman mantle true rookie...not doubleprinted and overvalued!

In 2017, there is also something to be said for the fact that although impossible to know the details without having lived in the era, Cobb does have the reputation of not exactly being a "tolerant" individual. Mantle was flawed, but in a way that some people can better relate to. I guess what I'm saying is that Mantle was a star on a level that others couldn't reach. He did, however, have flaws that were quite in line with many ordinary citizens.

Would love to find a nice CJ Cobb, but talk about a tough card to find. Missed on one about 5 years ago that was perfect. Was a PSA 2 due to paper loss on the back, but the front was a PSA 8/8.5. Was not into collecting back then, but still considered buying it. Wish I would have done so now. Beautiful card.

This is the one. Would love to own it. Beautiful card.

http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/...s73twxe68.jpeg

KendallCat---

The missed opportunity on that CJ Ty Cobb most assuredly fits "the one that got away" category. It's a quintessential "buy the card, not the holder" example. Wow, it presents so beautifully.

Whatever anyone wishes to say about the massive availability on the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle, as they have said ever since around 1981, when it was discovered Mick, Jackie Robinson, and Bobby Thomson were double-printed on the Topps sheets, somehow the message still translates in the minds of collectors to:

I don't care if it's not his true rookie; big deal.

I don't care if it's double-printed, and there's twice as many as all the other seventh series cards.

All I know is that it's one of the most beautiful Mickey Mantle cards I ever laid eyes on. I want it. I WANT IT. I GOTTA HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

Just my nickel-pack's worth.;)

---Brian Powell

Re: Mantle's 51 Bowman vs. 52 Topps...I just added up their PSA & SGC pops...If you consider just how in demand the 52 example is, I think that's not so many. And regarding the debate of whether his 52 is a rookie card or not, it's rather irrelevant, IMO, it's his debut card in Topps landmark set. It's iconic and transcends the hobby. FWIW, I'll always be a HUGE T206 fan, and a Cobb fan though.


2303 Total 51 Bowman Mantes (1783 PSA & 520 SGC)

1857 Total 52 Topps Mantles (1425 PSA & 432 SGC)

The PWCC green Cobb 4 is at 7100 and it has a major crease in the bottom left corner. This card price is EXPLODING. 3 years ago you could get a PSA 4 for 3,000. Now you are paying 7 to 8 thousand. That is a great return. Observe the 707 Green Cobb is down.

Ahead of that card closing, I picked up another PSA 4 to hold onto.

I would ask what a 52 mantle went for 3 years ago? Has it had the same returns? I really am pretty ignorant here. I do not collect them. This entire thread came from a debate with another collector and we both thought it was worthy of posting to see what others though.

I can only post on n54 in double-pics. Not sure why. This is as far back as vcp goes on psa 3 mantles. So now that the mid-2006 insanity has passed, the card has doubled in three years.

Mantle and Cobb
 

Showcasing here, but here are mine together..,

+1, Sniffy.

Best move is go for what you love to own and hold every day.

https://www.collectorfocus.com/image...2-topps-mantle

https://www.collectorfocus.com/image...cker-jack-cobb

Awesome cards!!

First off, I hate using the word "investment" and associating it with my hobby.

As an investment I'd take the Mantle because for some reason or other there's a buzz about the 52T Mantle. Personally, I'd be much more happy with the Cobb card.

Anybody have a total pop on both of the cards in the SGC and PSA registry's? Just curious.

Fred- see post #92 for Mantle's total pop. I know Green Cobb is much less, but then the debate becomes supply & demand.

I don't make enough to buy the cards I want unless I eventually plan on parting with some of them. Do I like that, no. It unfortunately is called "reality". At one point I had more money into my baseball cards than the entire cost I paid for my house. The balances are now tipped the other way, but I sit and look at them and realize cold hard cash is a retirement plan and my baseball cards are a partial gamble, no matter how much I like them.

I try to strike a balance between them and move my interests to make sure I don't lose my ass while having fun.