I really like when someone gathers scans of all the cards for a particular player/pose. Perhaps if this is done for a handful of players there would be a better estimate of populations?

Yeah, the Toads we can find should shed a little more light on populations for Old Judge cards. Ramsey in general is considered rare but I'm up to 9 pitching poses (I just updated my post on the previous page of this thread with image #9), which is pretty rare but that bat vertical Toad pose appears to be the ultimate in rarity, as the Old Judge book features the only image I've ever seen.

Dave, good start on collecting Ramsey images. All three poses were issued in both 1888 (Fb) and 1889 (Fc). Fc is typically more common than Fb but you are showing a nearly equal split . . .

Pose 1 - 1 Fb (last card) and 3 Fc
Pose 2 - Fc
Pose 3 - 5 Fb and 4 Fc

Total of 6 Fb, 8 Fc

I suspect your 1:9 ratio between pose 2 & 3 is a bit skewed. The Cartolphilic listing for pose 2 shows one Fb and two different Fc variations (Louisville and Louisvilles). I suspect none of those variations are unique, there are more cards out there. I'd say Ramsey is among the easier Louisville players.

If only someone spent many years collecting cards of the same player, we would have a better idea of OJ population...

"Someday I'll get better individual scans". said John, knowing full well he will probably just take a group shot with the three new cards added in and never fulfill that promise.

Considering that I happen to have 42 Corcoran cards, and coupled with John's 41, I should think an estimate of over 100 for the most common is quite reasonable.:)

Brian

I'd love to see the scans just so we can compare :)

I knew there had to be another connoisseur of fine Corcorans around

Okay . . . from the above posts of the N172 player collections it's pretty evident that some of the poses of a given player are extremely difficult whereas others are relatively pedestrian. (That's my experience with the Denvers guys too).

As a (primarily but not exclusively) T206 guy, I think the N172 focus needs to shift away from player scarcity, and toward pose scarcity. It's like the difference between a Green Cobb and a Red Cobb, only far more pronounced!

Scot-if more people collected poses that would make sense, but very few people do. The VAST majority of Old Judge collectors care more about the aesthetics of the pose than its' rarity.

I get it Jay -- and thanks for taking the time to respond.

+1..There are very few collectors crazy enough to try to complete N172. It sounds analogous to completing a type card set. :) crazy, crazy.....

And then a steamroller ran over them just before falling off a cliff into the ocean
 

Unfortunately I only scanned the back sides, and my mom threw those in the trash after my dog ate them. I always assumed the backs are what collectors found most interesting when it comes to Old Judge cards.

Brian

The N172 is so fascinating to me. I sit and look at my T206 collection and wish I had just gone ahead and started collecting OJ six years ago instead.....I would probably have less than a dozen cards by now but how cool it would be :)

How anyone who loves baseball wouldn't love looking at N172s, I don't know? When these gems have great clarity and focus they can look almost 3D. And when they have any back damage they can look like that and grade a 1!!:eek:

When I first saw scans of Old Judge cards on eBay, I thought for sure they were '3D' with the shadows I was seeing under some of the borders. Then I learned that the cards are just photographs of larger photographs that were all aligned within a template border overlay. This is what created the shadows... and the shadowy the better, in my opinion.

Scarcity of 1888 Milwaukee Old Judges
 

Since this thread has been revived I thought I would take the opportunity to add a little interesting information, especially for Milwaukee collectors. BTW, for the uninitiated, Fb and Fa are two types of 1888 Old Judge cards.
Last week, an 1888 Schenkel-Milwaukee Old Judge card showed up on eBay. It was the first known 1888 Schenkel. Because of that I took a quick look at 1888 Milwaukee cards (all of which are Fb). There are twenty players who played for Milwaukee in 1888 who have Old Judge cards. Two of these players, Winkleman and Howes played for both Minneapolis and Milwaukee that year. Each has Minneapolis Fa cards, but no known Milwaukee Fb cards. Five other players who played for Milwaukee in 1888 (Crossley, Ferson, Griffith, McAleer, Walsh) have no Fb card that is known. Seven of the players on the team are players who are very scarce (Cusick, Davin, Forster, Horner, Pettee, Stephens, Warner). Struck has a card with his name, but picturing Straus. Otherwise, he is unknown in the set. Two of the players (Fuller, Schenkel) are common players, but their Fb cards are quite scarce; witness the fact that the Schenkel was unlisted until the copy found last week appeared. That leaves Straus, Lowe and Maskrey. Maskrey has two poses with a Fb cards, all scarce; only one is listed in The Cartophilic Society Listing (CSL). Straus has three poses listed on Fb's, which are all scarce ( I have my doubts about the existence of pose two). Lowe has three Fb poses listed in the CSL, although one is called an Fb script. I'm not sure what that is--possibly an error. The other two poses are quite scarce. Where does that get us--32 or 33 Fb Milwaukee cards, and not an easy one in the group. I'm not sure why these Milwaukee cards are so tough, but they certainly are. If you find one you have hit an Old Judge home run.

Sent from my iPhone

The Fb Milwaukee cards are indeed scarce, close to California League territory, as are some of the other Fb cards. If you are after a team, player, or pose that is only known as an Fb you could spend a lifetime waiting for one to surface. When I moved to Iowa 8 years ago I thought it might be interesting to obtain an example team card of all the Western Association teams from 1888 and 1889 and quickly realized that was a tough task. Most of the Western Association cards from 1888 are Fb and rarely surface. A single example from Milwaukee, St. Paul, and other teams may not surface for years. Fantastic pick-up on the Schenkel Jay! Finding an example from the Chicago Maroons, a recognized tough team, was actually much easier than the other teams (a couple Chicago & Des Moines players seem more available than others). Even outside of Western Association there are a lot of very tough Fb cards, think Anson in Uniform, McGreachery (or the other half of the Deacon White poses), 3rd Harry Wright pose, etc.

Regarding Fb script, they do exist. I suspect these came about when some of the Fb poses were created later in the year, after the negatives had been modified for cabinet cards. Here are two examples.

Of course, you are right Joe. I forgot about the Anson, but I don't recall ever seeing the Donnelly. The Fb script cards must be really tough also. Thanks for the input!

always looking
 

I have one "Old Judge" in my type collection. I picked this player because he was on the original 1903 Highlander team. I'm always looking in the bigger auctions for another pose to compliant and compare with my card. love the history of the cards, has a wonderful energy just holding one !!!!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151843924@N04/albums

My Milwaukee OJ collection currently is up to 22 different players/poses. I haven't been fussy about condition so the hunt has been a little easier, although it has been over 3 years since my last addition.

If you don't mind me asking what do Fa and Fb stand for?

And if you'd like to check them out I have all of them scanned on my website linked below.

I felt like throwing in my totals.

I sit at 28 plus 1 N173 of Al Buckenberger. Reading through this thread yesterday and today has revitalized my interest in OJs. Now to track down a few more for my Columbus base ball connection set. Only 88 more player/team combos to find. I may even start on a 2nd pose of the Columbus Solons players.

John--Great cards! Fa and Fb represent two series of Old Judge cards issued by Goodwin and Co in 1888. They are characterized by the first two lines in the text at the bottom being "Old Judge/ Cigarettes". The difference is the type size. If you have a copy of the Old Judge book it is all explained and illustrated in there. If not, in the current Sterling Auction, Lot 11 is a nice clear Fb.

I did a little reading about the 1888 Milwaukee team in Dennis Pajot's great book " The Rise of Milwaukee Baseball". Most of the info contained below is from that book.
1888 was the first year of the Western Association. Milwaukee, one of the founding members, hired Jim Hart as its' manager. The following was the team put together to start the season.

1B: Andy Cusick--Came from Phil NL
2B: Pat Pettee--Came from Salem, Eastern League
SS: Tom Forster--Was on Milwaukee NWL team in 1887
3B: Joe Strauss-- ". "
LF: Bobby Lowe--Came from Eau Claire in NWL
CF: David Davin--Came from Portland
RF: Leech Maskrey--Was on Milwaukee NWL team in 1887
C: Frank Mills-- " "
P: Alex Ferson--Came from Manchester, New Eng. League
P: Jack Horner: Came from Hamilton, Int'l League
P: John Struck: Came from Little Rock, SW League
P: Bill Shenkel: Was on Milwaukee NWL team in 1887
Sub: William Fuller: Came from Kalamazoo
Sub: Ed Warner: Came from Hamilton, Int'l League

Prior to 1888 none of these players had an Old Judge card. In mid-May Alex Ferson was released and pitcher George Stephens was added from the Hiawatha Club of Detroit.
In early June David Davin was released for excessive drinking and pitcher Henry Heup was picked up from the local Milwaukee Welcomes. Davin's month plus with Milwaukee earned him three Old Judge poses, all extremely rare today.
In mid-June Milwaukee added Jimmy McAleer from Memphis of the Southern League. Although McAleer has no known Milwaukee card, he earned five Old Judge poses as a member of Cleveland in 1889.
In late-June, Milwaukee made what turned out to be a great trade. They gave John Struck and $1000 for a pitcher from Bloomington, IL, future HOFer Clark Griffith. Griffith has no known 1888 Milwaukee card; Struck has one with his name, but Joe Strauss' image. When we did the Old Judge book we let the image on the card determine whose card it was; owners of the Yum Yum"Anson" may disagree with this methodology.They may consider that Struck has a card in the Old Judge set, albeit a so far unique one.
During July, Henry Heup and Andy Cusick were released. Cusick's time with the team earned him five Old Judge poses, all major rarities.
In early August, with the team struggling, Hart made quite a few moves. They released Pat Pettee, Tom Forster, Ed Warner and his prom date Jack Horner, and George Stephens. Added were William Crossley (C) from Davenport, John McCabe (2B) from Davenport, Bert Wilson (P) from Fremont in Ohio, Albert Fisher (SS) from Crawfordsville, and George Winkleman (P), William Hawes (1B) and Joe Walsh (SS), all from the folded team in Minneapolis. Stephens had four Old Judge poses from his time in Milwaukee, all rare, even though he neither started nor ended the season with them. Horner and Warner both received some Old Judge poses. Horner appeared for New Haven in 1889 and earned some team change Old Judge variations, all more common than his Milwaukee cards, but still pretty scarce. Ed Warner, even though he wandered through baseball with his friend and battery mate Warner, has no known New Haven cards; his Milwaukee cards are very rare. Tom Forster appeared in several Old Judge issues. As a member of the Metropoloisns he had an 1886 Spotted Tie. He has a few scarce Milwaukee cards in 1888, and a team change card with Hartford in 1889. Winkelman and Hawes had 1888 Minneapolis cards, but no known Milwaukee cards. Walsh earned his first cards as a member of Omaha in 1889.
The last player move of the year was the release of Albert Fisher in late-August.
I find this chronology interesting as it puts some history to the cards. Hopefully, some Milwaukee fans will find it interesting too.

Here is an image of the unique John Struck card.

Here is a cabinet of the 1888 Milwaukee team, clearly taken at the start of the season.

The back of the cabinet features a home schedule for the 1888 season.

Interesting, I also have the Donnelly, which is my only Fb script, unless this Deasley counts???

p.s. neat Milwaukee items!

Neat card Gary! I'm trying to get all of McGuire's poses (and variations) as well. Still a couple more to go ... :)

Great collection John, all your 22 Milwaukee OJs, 100%, date to 1889 which isn't surprising. If you have a lot of collecting years left, maybe you can set a stretch goal of obtaining an 1888 example. If and when you obtain it, cherish it :)

Here is a cheat sheet I've posted previously on the old board to help study the differences between Fa, Fb, and Fc. Note how you cannot trust the printed copyrights on the card. They sometimes match the year the card is issued, sometimes match the date of the negative, sometimes match neither. For example, an 1889 Fc card might have an 1888 copyright but be based on an 1887 photoshoot.

Jay, thanks for sharing the Milwaukee information and the rare Straus/Struck card.

Rob, nice Donnelly despite the condition. Your Deasley is actually an Fa, but much like my comment on the Fb-script, it appears to be a late 1888 issue as you can see the script behind the name-plate much like many of the 1889 Fc cards. The negative had already been modified in support of issuing the first cabinet cards. I also like those Fa New York cards with the writing in the border. How many do you now have?

I can throw my personal collection stats at this discussion. My Detroit team set is comprised of Detroit cards that were issued in 1887, 1888, and 1889.

There are 28 different poses in 1887, I'm 100% complete (28/28), have upgraded most poses 2-3 times. Joe Maples has also completed the 1887 run.

30 new poses were introduced in 1888, all Fb, I'm 50% complete (15/30). There were also a number of re-issued poses from 1887, some Fa others Fb, I have 6 such cards.

14 new poses were introduced in 1889, I'm 79% complete (11/14). The 1889 Detroit cards depict Detroit's International Association team, all team change cards. These International Association cards are a bit tougher than the more mainstream NL, AA, & WA 1889 cards.

I do collect all variations including cabinets and Gypsy Queens. Here is a photo I shared last year when I completed the "Big 4" in large format. I have all four possible Detroit variations for Rowe & Richardson (1887 & 1888 N172, N175, and N173). The 1888 N172s, N175s, and N173s can be very tough to come by, difficult to complete the grand-slam.

Joe: That's a great Detroit collection, probably the best ever assembled.

Hi Joe, with your help, I only have the same three with writing in the border. Haven't seen another come up in a while. But then again I've only been half-heartedly looking.