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-   -   Robert Edwards preview is up (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=167008)

David Atkatz 04-13-2013 08:11 PM
Take a good look at those Ruth photos. They were all signed in the same ink, with the same pen. I'm reasonably certain they were signed at the same time.
Yet there are considerable differences in the "Ruth"s.

Real autographs are like that.

earlywynnfan 04-13-2013 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mighty bombjack (Post 1117213)
I wondered about this as well. Did Ron see this ball for sale when REA put it up in 1995, and he is therefore saying it isn't real, or is he unaware of its existence? I guess we can't know.
I'd find it hard to believe Ron didn't see every signed baseball of this caliber in a major auction for the last 20 years.

Ken

Scott Garner 04-14-2013 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 1117112)
Charles Hamilton was highly regarded but he was not infallible. Here is a brief summary of a very fascinating story, you can get more details on Wikipedia.

"Mark William Hofmann (born December 7, 1954) is an American counterfeiter, forger and convicted murderer. Widely regarded as one of the most accomplished forgers in history, Hofmann is especially noted for his creation of documents related to the history of the Latter Day Saint movement.[1] When Hofmann's schemes began to unravel, he constructed bombs to murder two people in Salt Lake City, Utah. He is serving a life sentence at the Utah State Prison in Draper since 1988.

In 1983, Hofmann bypassed the Historical Department (of the LDS Church) and sold to Gordon B. Hinckley, a member of the First Presidency of the Church, an 1825 Joseph Smith holograph purporting to confirm that Smith had been treasure hunting and practicing black magic five years after his First Vision. Hofmann had the signature authenticated by Charles Hamilton, the contemporary "dean of American autograph dealers," sold the letter to the Church for $15,000, and gave his word that no one else had a copy"
I believe I saw a television special on Hofmann and this whole forgery scam with the LDS. Hofmann was certainly a skilled and brazen forger....

RichardSimon 04-14-2013 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Garner (Post 1117450)
I believe I saw a television special on Hofmann and this whole forgery scam with the LDS. Hofmann was certainly a skilled and brazen forger....
And don't forget, a murderer too,,, I don't think the baseball forgers we are aware of have any intent of going that far :).

RichardSimon 04-14-2013 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly (Post 1117245)
Just remember. Hamilton defended the Kennedy papers till the day he died.
One of the great scams in the autograph business,,, but at least they caught the guy and he served some serious time.

David Atkatz 04-14-2013 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly (Post 1117245)
Just remember. Hamilton defended the Kennedy papers till the day he died.
Hamilton did not defend the Kennedy papers.
but PSA's john Reznikoff sure did.

travrosty 04-14-2013 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1117488)
Hamilton did not defend the Kennedy papers.
but PSA's john Reznikoff sure did.

and he still gets to authenticate kennedy signatures.

RichardSimon 04-14-2013 09:44 AM
Hamilton authenticated a few of the JFK papers that were shown to him. I believe it was a small number of them, perhaps 5?

diamondicons 04-14-2013 10:04 AM
Just noticed there is a Brouthers single signed ball in the current Coach's Corner auction...an its certified.
http://www.myccsa.com/lot/244/dan-br...-baseball.aspx
Could probably be used for comparison purposes to determine if the one in REA is real. :eek: Mike

travrosty 04-14-2013 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 1117501)
Hamilton authenticated a few of the JFK papers that were shown to him. I believe it was a small number of them, perhaps 5?
the guy selling them and reznikoff would only show a few papers to several different dealers, authenticators and so forth, but wouldn't show the bulk of it to any one person. so these guys would say they liked the handwriting, but if they could have seen it all maybe their tune would have been different.

David Atkatz 04-14-2013 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon (Post 1117501)
Hamilton authenticated a few of the JFK papers that were shown to him. I believe it was a small number of them, perhaps 5?
Hamilton did not authenticate the Kennedy papers. He knew more about Kennedy's handwriting and signature than anyone else at the time, and, in fact, was the one who discovered that JFK used an autopen--the first instance of that instrument being used--and identified a number of his secretarial signatures as well. He published his findings in his book The Robot That Helped to Make a President, a classic, but alas, long OOP.

shelly 04-14-2013 11:32 AM
Richard you are correct. Here is part of a piece written in the paper.

Mr. Reznikoff showed three or four items to Mr. Hamilton, the New York autograph dealer. Mr. Hamilton provided a typewritten letter, dated Sept. 8, 1994, certifying that the documents he saw were genuine.

Mr. Hamilton's widow, Diane, said that she, too, is a handwriting analyst and, after viewing 50 to 60 documents from the collection, she also believes that they are authentic. ''There just isn't any question about it,'' she said. From the New York Times

A long with that, here is part of the court transcript.

[9] EB: So Cusack says he took 6 of the more than 300 documents to a noted document dealer, Charles Hamilton, who declared those 6 documents to be authentic. It was then that Lex Cusack says he decided to sell his collection and he brought it to this man, Thomas Cloud, established dealer of gold, diamonds and documents.

thenavarro 04-14-2013 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1117541)
Hamilton did not authenticate the Kennedy papers. He knew more about Kennedy's handwriting and signature than anyone else at the time, and, in fact, was the one who discovered that JFK used an autopen--the first instance of that instrument being used--and identified a number of his secretarial signatures as well. He published his findings in his book The Robot That Helped to Make a President, a classic, but alas, long OOP.
David,

Hamilton did authenticate SOME of that cache of papers. He even went so far as to allegedly publish parts of 3 of those documents in the July 1995 re-release of his book you mentioned, The Robot That Helped to Make a President.

Mike

David Atkatz 04-14-2013 01:27 PM
I stand corrected, Mike. Thanks.

thenavarro 04-14-2013 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz (Post 1117572)
I stand corrected, Mike. Thanks.
No problem David. I consider Hamilton an autograph industry legend, LOL. (doesn't mean he was infallible though). I typically don't enjoy reading books, but I've read a few of his several times. Seemed to have a writing style that I enjoy for some reason. I need to dig a few of them out of storage to enjoy again. Haven't done much of that since I got Internet access in the mid 90's.

Mike

David Atkatz 04-14-2013 02:13 PM
When I was a kid in the mid-sixties, just beginning to (attempt to) collect historical autographs, I used to go to Hamilton's shop on Madison Ave (before he moved to E. 53rd), and goggle at what he had on display. My local branch of the NYPL had a copy of his Collecting Autographs and Manuscripts, and I used to take it out all the time.

mighty bombjack 05-20-2013 08:48 PM
The Brouthers ball only went for 48,000 with the BP!

DAMN

RichardSimon 05-23-2013 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mighty bombjack (Post 1133827)
The Brouthers ball only went for 48,000 with the BP!

DAMN
P.T.Barnum is alive and well.

effe 05-24-2013 01:54 PM
Any idea on why this went so high? I understand it was an early example, but if you factor in the buyers fee isn't this about 4x what a normal Mack auto would go for?
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=25390

Runscott 05-24-2013 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by effe (Post 1135899)
Any idea on why this went so high? I understand it was an early example, but if you factor in the buyers fee isn't this about 4x what a normal Mack auto would go for?
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=25390
Handwritten, nice signature, one page, baseball content, Baseball team letterhead. This is exactly what I look for when purchasing autographs.....except it's Connie Mack, and he's not currently on my list.


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