Totally agree!!!

And I believe Morris will get in next year, along with Bagwell AND Biggio. PED users will be destined to wait for their veteran's committee nominations. The best ones may eventually get in, but it'll be a long time - perhaps after their deaths.

I was glad to see Mattingly getting more votes this year. I'm surprised at how few votes Bernie Williams got.


I think Larkin is a deserving HOFer. Today short stops are expected to hit 30 home runs and steal 30 bases. However, until Larkin did it in 1996 no other short stop ever had. He was truly ahead of his peers.

I don't think Morris should ever get in. He wasn't the best pitcher of the 80s, he just had the most wins. Roger Clemens won 95 games in 5 seasons in the 80s. Was Morris better than he was? Clemens also won back to back CYs in the 1980s. Morris never finished higher than 3rd.

For a guy who is supposed to be the best pitcher of the 80s, Morris posted a 4.00 ERA three times and posted a 3.94 in 1988. He would go on to post a 4.00 or higher ERA in 4 of his last 5 seasons after 1989.

The thing about the drugs is that a man can remain bulked up throughout a grueling 162 game season while using them. It would seem unlikely that they could stick to a weightlifting schedule. I didn't follow the news, but didn't they only target the superstars and/or people breaking records? If thats the case, the players who were using drugs but not tested will get in with their less significant careers. A couple of people mentioned here were quite bulky towards the end of their careers, deep into the seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if nearly all players used, therefore Mac and Bonds should be compared to their peers. They were much better than all the other users playing on the same field.

And I'm not a Bonds fan BTW

PS: steroids will not help a man hit a 92 MPH slider

Biggio
 

"Biggio should get in before any of these guys. His stats might be better than you think. He's the only player in MLB history with 3,000 H, 600 2B, 400 SB, and 250 HR. This is from a guy that played 14 of his 20 seasons between C and 2B. And he was an All Star at both positions."

Totally agree........Craig Biggio should be a first ballot HOFer.

Rizzuto
 

That lack of love for RIZZUTO is surprising....guess you guys never heard of GLUE

RIZZUTO was the glue for many many championships, he was also awarded MVP at the time, rightfully being recognized as a VERY important part of the greatest run ever...

More then hrs in baseball....
RIZZUTO was better, had more championships than maranvile, but nobody complains about him rabbit

The anti new York bias is thick on this board.

Rizzuto
 

Scott

I'm not sure about "The anti new York bias is thick on this board" ?


Anyhow, I agree with everything else in your post here regarding "The Scooter".

As some of you know, Phil Rizzuto was my nearby neighbor when I grew up in Hillside, NJ. I met him many times and even flew 1st class with him on a 2-hour flight to Chicago in 1984.

One of the best tributes I heard given to Rizzuto was from Ted Williams. I met Ted in the 1980's and we had a great conversation. Ted firmly believed and told me.....

"If Phil Rizzuto was the Red Sox shortstop in the late 1940's and the early 1950's, the Red Sox would have been the AL Champs those years, not the Yankees."


TED Z

Scotfandango,

Dave Concepcion played against better competition (African-Americans and actual relief pitchers instead of former starters with dead arms), played for great teams that won World Series, was a better hitter and probably a better defensive Short Stop than Rizzuto and look how much HOF love he has received.

Using Baseball Reference's black ink and gray ink tables for offense and how they relate to how a player stacks up against HOF players, Concepcion scores higher than Rizzuto. Using their comparison of players in general, Concepcion compares to better players than Rizzuto.

If you think Baseball Reference puts too much weight towards the offense then remember that Concepcion and Larry Bowa were the two best defensive Short Stops in the NL until Ozzie Smith came along.

Again, if Concepcion had played in NY and accomplished these things, we would be talking about him as a Hall Of Famer now. But because we are talking about a Latin player who played in Cincinnati during the 1970's and 1980's instead of a guy from NY in the 1950's (who also had a long broadcasting career and a Money Store commercial to keep his name, face and voice in the public eye) we are not doing that.

In short, if people are using the number of World Series rings Rizzuto won (on teams that I think Dickey, DiMaggio, Ruffing, Gomez, Mantle, Berra and Ford, among others, had a LOT more to do with than Rizzuto) or how he was the GLUE for those teams (where in the HOF rules is that stated as a criteria and how many other players could that be used as a reason for their inclusion in the HOF?) then, to me, that means Rizzuto is NOT a Hall Of Fame player. Either that or there are OTHER players out there who should be getting looked at or talked about for the HOF that currently aren't.

Finally, why isn't Ted Simmons or, better yet, Joe Torre NOT being talked about as Hall Of Famers? Both put up great offensive stats as Catchers and Torre had a long and productive career as a Manager (guiding the Yankees to numerous World Series and winning rings to boot).

I have an anti-NY bias because I see too many players as being overhyped just BECAUSE they played for the Yankees (and now the Red Sox) when if they played for another team and did the same things they would be overlooked or their accomplishments put down because they didn't do them in NY.

David

deadballers who deserve serious consideration (statistically)
 

Gavvy Cravath
Ed Reulbach
Mike Donlin

All of which are more deserving than the likes of mcgwire, bondsn sosa etc...

I think the Rizzuto lovers always miss the point that there is a difference between being a good ballplayer and a hall of famer. Rizzuto was a good ballplayer with one great year that played only for great teams. The Yankees still made the 1955 WS with him barely playing, repeated again in 1956 when he played even less, repeated in 1957 when he wasn't on the team, won again in 1958. They won from 36-39 and 60-64, before and after him, the Yankees won the AL over and over for a long time.


Red Sox wouldn't have won the AL with Rizzuto instead of Vern Stephens because if Rizzuto was in Boston, Stephens would've been in the middle of the Yankees lineups driving in runs. Then Johnny Pesky took over, then in 1952 the Red Sox were horrible, they weren't making up a 16 game difference in 1953 because of a light hitting shortstop and by 54 Rizzuto wasn't that good. The Red Sox wouldn't have won anything more with Rizzuto unless the Yankees only put 8 men in field and left the SS position open

No one denies he had a good career but his numbers blend in with a ton of guys who didn't have a chance to play for the Yankees their entire career. Rizzuto could've played with the Senators his whole career and he wouldn't even sniff the HOF, don't believe me, ask Cecil Travis fans.

Rizzuto never even got the support of the writers who saw him back in the day that Marty Marion did. Marion got 40% of the votes in 1970, 7th highest total and only non-HOF besides Hodges in the top 10. At 11th place you had Allie Reynolds, 12th Johnny VanderMeer and down in 15th, Rizzuto on his 8th try. Only if Marion could've been a star shortstop for a team that went to the WS.... :rolleyes:

+1

The Yankees would have been a third place team without "Glue" Rizzuto. ;)

Did you know the most comparable player to Rizzuto all-time is Art Fletcher, time to start hoarding his t206 cards for when the veterans committee finally inducts him!

Also in those top 10 comps from baseball-reference for both Rizzuto and Fletcher is Claude Ritchey. One of our board members recently wrote a slightly interesting article on him but they left out his Hall of Fame credentials? I wonder why... http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012...tchey-bio.html

World Series Championships have nothing to do with being in or out of the HOF. Banks never won, Ted Williams never won etc. The everyday player can't pitch or manage the team. They were great players and they belong in the HOF. If the Tigers didn't win in '68, does that mean Kaline should not be in the HOF ? That would be insane.

I agree completely. Torre should've been in as a player...He'll get in as a MGR, but I hope that doesn't stop people from pursuing him as a player as well.. A strong case can be made for Ted Simmons. I wouldn't mind seeing him get in(but I'd be ok if he doesn't). Conception should eventually get in. If all goes well, I think it would be fitting to see the two Venezuelan #13 shortstops get in together. Imagine if the BWAA voted in Vizquel, and Veterans voted in Conception the same year. I think that would be a great thing.. Now before anyone jumps down my throat about Vizquel. He's a no brainer in my books.. Arguably one of the two best defensive SS's in history(Smith may or may not have been better), 2800+ hits, 400+ SB's, and a leader both on and off the field. According to Baseball-reference his top 8 "similar batters" in order are- Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Ozzie Smith, Bill Dahlen, Dave Conception, Luke Appling, Pee Wee Reese, and Nellie Fox. Everything about Omar screams Hall of Fame...

It is a great debate because we all have our own standards and definition of "hall of famer".

I don't consider Larkin, Dawson, Rizzuto, etc...hall of famers. To me they are in the same boat as McGriff, Dale Murphy, Al Oliver, Raines, etc...

Compare Ted Simmons stats to the greatest catchers of all time and tell me why he didn't get any consideration for the HOF. Doesn't make sense to me.

John D.
 

John D.

By 1955, Rizzuto's career was ending. Pardon me for correcting you. He had more than just 1 great year. In 1949, he was runner-up for the AL MVP award to Ted
Williams. Speaking about Ted....I trust his judgement of Rizzuto, when he said to me......

"If Phil Rizzuto was the Red Sox shortstop in the late 1940's and the early 1950's, the Red Sox would have been the AL Champs those years, not the Yankees."



John

OK, you are too young to have seen Rizzuto play and I'm too old and did see Rizzuto play from 1949 to 1956. He was a tremendous Lead-Off batter. An expert bunter,
and a good hitter (especially when a lead-off runner was needed). His fielding at SS and his throwing arm were excellent. And, this is what Ted Williams was alluding to.

Rizzuto's enthusiam for the game; and, his ability to execute at bat and on the field are intangibles that are not evident in the statistics.



Rizzuto did not get the support when it came to HOF voting because of guys like Charles Gehringer who had it in for Phil (I've never understood why). Ted Williams
was very influential in getting Phil into the HOF.

Marty Marion should be in the HOF, he was "Mr Shortstop" before Ernie Banks.
Furthermore, considering some of the guys who have been inducted by the Veterans Committee in recent years, Marion, Hodges, Reynolds, and Vander Meer should
all certainly be in the HOF.


P.S.....Give my regards to your Dad. Tell him my 1957 T-Bird is tuned-up and ready to race :)

TED Z

robextend,

Replace Thurman Munson with Ted Simmons on those mid-1970's Yankees teams and Simmons is a Hall Of Famer.

Simmons was in the majors at a younger age than Munson and had a longer career and still his OPS+ is higher than Munson's (117 to 116). Sure, if he had lived, Munson could have put up a few more good seasons to raise his OPS+. However, if Munson had played as long as Simmons did, it is also likely that he would have had a drop off in production and his OPS+ would have fallen.

No, I don't believe in the idea that just because a guy played for the Yankees (or Red Sox) and put up good, but not great, stats for their career that they should some how get a HOF boost for it.

David

Simmons closest contemporaries that are in the HOF are Bench, Fisk and Carter. Simmons had more hits, a higher batting average, more doubles and more RBI then all of them as well as being an 8 time all-star.

robextend,

Ted Simmons info From baseball-reference:

Gray Ink Batting - 95 (238), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 124 (110), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 44 (116), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Similar Batters

1. Miguel Tejada (855)
2. Alan Trammell (831)
3. Carlton Fisk (819) *
4. Joe Torre (818)
5. Gary Carter (818) *
6. Lou Whitaker (817)
7. Barry Larkin (805) *
8. Yogi Berra (805) *
9. Joe Cronin (804) *
10. Ryne Sandberg (791) *

Six of Simmons ten comparables are IN the HOF. Do the same comparison for Phil Rizzuto and see what happens.

Oh, I am sorry, that is right, Rizzuto played in New York, for the Yankees, won a bunch of rings and had Ted Williams around to influence the HOF voters.

David

I have to disagree with you on Morris. He was a big game pitcher and only Sandy Koufax had as many Babe Ruth awards as Morris (best player in the postseason). Yes he didn't win 300 games (only won 254) but arguably there will never be another 300 game winner in MLB. Morris was a gamer and never wanted to come out of a game, often wanting to pitch all 9 innings. I think this hurt his ERA because of late inning runs scored against him when he was tiring but had a lead. He won 162 games during the 80's, a MLB best, and his 7th game 10 inning shutout of the Braves in the 1991 WS was arguably the greatest pitching feat in history because of what was at stake, even better than Larsen's perfect game. He was a 5 time All-Star and started 14 consecutive opening games. His ERA ended up at 3.90 but he was a dominant force on the mound.

Even Morris' post-season ERA is almost 4.00. People keep saying no one will win 300 games again but since Morris' retirement Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and Tom Glavine all went on to win 300 games.

Average season of 15 HR 71 RBI, for a guy who ended up with only 2300 hits, doesn't feel like a HOFer to me.

Vizquel is Ozzie without the back flips....

Ozzie actually has a higher OBP than slugging %, that doesn't happen very often.

There a ton of 60's to 90's SS that are real similar in many ways.

Tony Fernandez, Aparicio, Ozzie, Concepcion, Bowa, Campaneris, Trammel, Burleson, and why some got in and others don't....... who knows.

Not to mention the whole Lou Whitaker thing.....

No on Morris for HOF
 

I'm glad that Larkin was elected - I think he is a deserving HOFer at his position. I would also like to see Raines and Trammell get in.

Jack Morris, however, is not a Hall of Famer. The argument that he was the best pitcher of the 1980s is based on an arbitrary span of years that basically gives Morris credit for having his career begin before 1980 and end after 1989. There is simply no reason to use this temporal criteria to evaluate a player's skill and performance. The bottom line is that Morris was above average, but not by much (about 5 percent). There are so many other clearly superior pitchers who have gotten much less HOF consideration than Morris just because their period of quality pitching didn't occur between years ending in a 0, including David Cone, Jim Kaat, Chuck Finley, Orel Hershiser, Luis Tiant, and Rick Reuschel. None of these pitchers deserve to be in the HOF, but all of them were better than Morris.

Take a look at Baseball-Reference's list of WAR leaders for pitchers. Morris has a lower career WAR than Javier Vasquez, Tom Candiotti, and Bob Welch (and I would also argue that Welch was better than Morris in the 1980s).

Chuck Finley and Rick Reuschel "clearly superior" to Jack Morris?:confused::confused:

:eek:

:eek:

Mike Mussina is going to be interesting in a couple of years. I don’t think he is a hall of famer, but postseason success aside, his career was better than that of Jack Morris (who I also don’t think is a hall of famer).

Interesting CBC article about Larry Walker.

He should have more Hall of Fame consideration

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/ml...me-ballot.html

"It’s clear by looking at Walker’s production over 17 seasons that his numbers stack up with anyone in the Hall.

He won three batting titles, seven Gold Gloves, the National League MVP in 1997 and boasted a lifetime on-base-plus slugging percentage of .965, which is higher than 45 of the 64 outfielders currently in the Hall including Reggie Jackson and Dave Winfield. His .565 slugging percentage also ranks 13th all-time.

“When you look at a guy like Larry Walker and think of the best all-around players from his era, who’s better? Barry Bonds, maybe,” said Glew. “He hit 49 home runs when he won the NL MVP award [and drove in 130]."

Huge Larry fan...I completely agree. I never really bought into the whole Colorado factor.. I think it's a lame excuse.

.

What? No Colorado factor? Here are Larry's home and road splits for his career. This includes his MTL and STL days but come on, the road hitter is a marginal all-star. The Home hitter is a HOFer.

Home Away
Games 986 1002
At Bats 3429 3478
Runs 789 566
Hits 1193 967
2B 268 203
3B 39 23
HR 215 168
RBI 747 564
BA 0.348 0.278
OBP 0.431 0.37
SLG 0.637 0.495
OPS 1.068 0.865

I don't remember if this was mentioned, but I wonder if the strike has worked against the late 70s - 80s guys whose careers were winding down in the early 90s? Morris, Whitaker, Trammell, Murphy, Raines. The strike clouded their retirements, or made a clean break between their greater career narrative and their last couple below average years. A cursory review reveals almost no players (apart from the milestone achievers) who retired between 93 and 97 to have been selected to the HOF. Carlton Fisk, Ozzie Smith, and Kirby Puckett being exceptions (Fisk debuted in '69 so he doesn't quite fit the category, Puckett's selection was emotionally expedited, and Smith actually performed consistent to his career his last season and did not fade (this is where his bland career offensive numbers actually worked in his favor, there is no fading when you are bad already). Perhaps this is a coincidence, or perhaps it is not unusual anyway.

For a similar reason I think it was a big mistake, historically speaking, for Pujols to go to another team. He has divided his legacy into two halves, and one of them aint going to be pretty. If he stayed in st. louis his career narrative would seemlessly wane and people would get it, and appreciate it. Now he has set up career two to be an inevitable disappointment. The only way he will be able to sew his two career halves together is if he wins a couple world series championships for the Angels in the first few years.

Getting back to Jack Morris, I understand why people don't think Jack should be in. And it doesn't bother me that he isn't in. But I would like to see him get in.

A few posts back someone said saying he is the best of the 80's is and arbitrary thing and doesn't mean anything. While I agree with this statement as he described it, I don't think people are using that statement in that way. At least that is not how I use it. I use it as a shorthand to represent the end of that particular era in baseball. Morris's career was pretty much the last 15 years of the pre-strike - pre juiced ball/juiced bodies era. His career should be judged in relation to his peers and by the judgement of his peers. And I think a strong case can be made for him by those measures.

abothebear,

You bring up a good point about the different years there were work stopages in baseball. Some players lost the equivalent of a season (or maybe two) because of the different strikes from the 1970's to the 1990's.

As far as 1981 is concerned, Dave Concepcion had a career year as far as offense goes (116 OPS+). He was an All Star, won the Silver Slugger Award and finsihed fourth in the MVP balloting.

Oh yeah, the Reds also had the BEST record in baseball that year but DIDN'T make the Play Offs because of the strike. The owners decided that the best thing to do would be to have the winners of each half of the season to go to the Play Offs.

If the Reds had made the Play Offs that year, it is possible that they could have won the World Series. If they had, then Concepcion would have ANOTHER ring on his career resume and, according to the Phil Rizzuto supporters, that would have helped him as far as his HOF argument goes.

David

Even if you don't think Rizzuto was a HOF player there is no doubt at all that he was a HOF Broadcaster. Whether you call him a player or a broadcaster is semantics but the bottom line is he IS a HOFer.

Dave Concepcion is not. He wasn't the fielder Vizquel or Smith are/were and has no record in the booth or a lasting contribution to baseball. Not to metion Rizzuto lost 4 YEARS in the absolute prime of his career to the war.

For those of you that like Larry Walker you guys gotta love Todd Helton:

Split
<pre>
Home Away
Games 1039 1015
AB 3688 3637
Runs 826 503
2B 296 258
3B 26 9
HR 212 135
RBI 788 520
B.A. .354 .291
SlgAve .620 .478
OPS 1.071 .869
</pre>
I suppose, even with the Denver bias he's still a pretty good hitting machine.

I was joking before when I blew off the Colorado factor. But yes, Walker, Gallaraga, Burks, Castilla, Helton, Holliday, Tulo. I can't help it. I've always been a fan of those Colorado sluggers. Helton power splits shouldn't be that different. Helton only played 5 seasons pre-humidor.. However, they did build that stadium with a deep outfield to account for the pre-humidor power surge. So nowadays, it's a great park for doubles and average.. Walker and Helton are still hall worthy in my book though, and Tulo's gotten off to a great start.

I agree - Mussina is a really close case. And he was significantly better than Morris.

Baseball-Reference has Finley's career WAR as 55.0, compared to 39.3 for Morris. This is a significant difference. Also, Finley's career adjusted ERA+ is 115 (15 percent better than league average) while Morris's is 105 (5 percent better than league average).

Believe it or not, Reuschel blows both of them away in WAR - 66.3(!) and his career adjusted ERA+ is a solid 114.

My point is that no one considers Finley or Reuschel to be HOFers and rightfully so. Why all the love for Morris?

I think Mussina is a definite HOFer but he'll probably have to wait a few years. He finished nearly 120 wins over 500 pitching his entire career in the AL East during the height of the steroid era. That's a HOFer to me.

Mussina belongs
 

I find it interesting that had Mussina decided to extend his career and play another 2-3 marginal years to get his 300th win he would be a LOCK hall of famer but because he quit on top but shy of 300 he's marginal.

Getting back to Larkin
 

I'm glad to see Larkin get in... I always thought he was a great player, regardless of statistics. I got the auto below when he was on rehab assignment in Indianapolis in 1989. He was extremely nice to all the fans (especially the kids), much more so than the other Reds who came through Indy during rehabs (Chris Sabo comes to mind).

Gallaraga was one of my favorite players... i wish he had better stats.. To come back from what he went through and dominate is astounding.

I think Helton is well on his way to the HoF.

"My point is that no one considers Finley or Reuschel to be HOFers and rightfully so. Why all the love for Morris?"

Because it isn't the Hall of Statistics.

Back a few posts to the strike/lockout comment.

Harold Baines would be a hall of famer except for the 1981 and 1994/95 missed games, as he would certainly have made 3000 hits and 400 HR's.

McGriff gets to 500 homers without 94/95.

Neither is likely to get in......

In the Rizzuto v Conception debate, I find the contention that the latter played against superior competition to be highly questionable.

"In the Rizzuto v Conception debate, I find the contention that the latter played against superior competition to be highly questionable."

It's easy for me to believe. Even though the Indians integrated in '48 and the White Sox two years later, the American League wasn't completely integrated until 1959. Most teams dragged their feet on it. The Yankees didn't lift their ban until 1955, when Rizzuto was essentially done. So there were many African-American and Latino players who never had a chance to play against Rizzuto. Because the National League integrated much faster — and raised its level of talent, its teams dominated the 1960s (Dodgers, Cardinals), while the Yankees steadily declined. They didn't win again until the late 1970s, when players like Reggie Jackson, Willie Randolph, Chris Chambliss, Mickey Rivers and others raised their talent level ...

Completely agreed. McGriff played 50 post-season games, around the same as he missed because of the 94/95 strike. In those 50 games he hit 10 HR's...That would've put him at 503. Gehrig coincindentally, also had 10 post-season HR's. That would also put him at 503. Counting post-season. Sam Rice goes over 3000 hits.

Those I believe are the only 3 players that go over major milestones(300 W, 500 HR, 3000 K or H) if you were to count post-season stats..

I'm not so sure McGriff won't get in. Some of the writers are already saying that they are looking at him again and what he did without PED's. I think that with the fact that they won't be voting for any of the steroid guys (at least for the first few years) it will give McGriff a chance to get in within the next 5 years. I'm really curious as to how Morris will do in the next couple of years. If he doesn't get in, he will be only the 2nd person ever to get over 50% and not get in...the first and only so far is Gil Hodges, and don't get me started about that :)

howard38,

1) Concepcion playing against better competition has nothing to do with Rizzuto missing playing time because of WW II. It has EVERYTHING to do with black ball players NOT being allowed to play Major League baseball during the first half of Rizzuto's career.

2) Who is to say that Rizzuto would have put up better numbers if he would have played baseball instead of going into the military? Back then the rules weren't as stringent, as far as safety goes, so there is always the possibility that Rizzuto could have been at Second Base waiting for a throw from Joe Gordon and a runner does a barrel roll into Rizzuto when trying to breakup a Double Play and Rizzuto tears knee ligaments and can never play again.

Now, I give more credence to the idea that Ted Williams missed out on putting up better stats because of the years he missed due to military service because A) he was a better hitter and B) he played the Outfield and had less chance of being involved in a collision and getting hurt.

3) According to Ted Z, who is a self proclaimed Rizzuto fan, Rizzuto was the lead off hitter for the Yankees from 1949 to 1955. If this is true, then it means he had guys like DiMaggio, Mantle and Berra batting behind him. Yet, during those five or six years, Rizzuto scored 100 or more Runs only twice. Furthermore, Ted Z said he was a good hitter. Yet, again, during that time period, he had 150 or more Hits only twice.

Now, if you look at Concepcion's stats and career, here is what you will find.

1) For the first four years he was in the Majors, he was not an everyday player.

2) Once he became an everyday player, he hit at the bottom of the order. Just imagine what his stats would have looked like if Sparky Anderson had moved him to the top of the order and he had had Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Tony Perez and George Foster batting behind him?

Nope, I look at their stats, the teams they played on and the competition they faced and say that Concepcion was a better player and deserves to be in the HOF more than Rizzuto does.

Now, if you think neither deserve to be in the HOF that is fine.

David

Thomas Boswell's (he's the very-long-time baseball writer for the Wash. Post) column in today's newspaper re Larkin, Bagwell and the PED candidates is a good read: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...8oP_story.html
Val