A pair of scissors.

I was a professional gambler for more than a decade. I know and/or have met hundreds of degenerate gamblers over the course of my life. They all fit a particular profile, though there are various flavors of them. I'd wager some damn good money that Ohtani is not a degenerate gambler. It's far more likely that he bailed out his friend or that his friend had access to his accounts somehow than it is that he's a degenerate gambler looking to launder millions of dollars worth of bets through him.

I am not a gambler, but I have worked with degenerates (gambling & otherwise) for nearly 40 years, and I agree completely.

“Degenerate Gamblers” would be a good band name. Especially for a country act.

100% agree, Manfred and MLB have dropped to their knees and grabbed the hips of corporate gambling.

No reason to keep Jackson and Rose out of the hall anymore.

Yep. Or even more reason to stay firm and try to hold the higher ground. Things may get very messy soon.

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Can you guys explain what Pete Rose or Joe Jackson have to do with Ohtani? I understand the general term "gambling" applies but is there no nuance between potentially gambling on a Premier League soccer game and gambling on a game you're managing? Or throwing the World Series on purpose?

Right now, I don't see any connection between Ohtani and Rose or Jackson. If further details come out proving Ohtani was betting on baseball, that definitely changes things, but so far, there is no evidence to make that claim.

I am shocked. Shocked! To find out that gambling could be happening in baseball.

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Response
 

From Casablanca…. Your winnings Sir !

Borrow Ohtani cards from a friend, sell them, wait and hope you can buy them back later for cheaper to give them back to your friend

I agree as well. There is less than a 1% chance he is a gambler.

Not sure why it seems that so many people are launching wild speculations, seems like Ohtani is in the crosshairs sometimes around here.

There is nothing at all reported on even a single bet being on a baseball game of any kind, actually each type has already been reported and listed as international soccer, the NBA, the NFL and college football. I think some folks can't place themselves in the same shoes of someone who speaks as much English living in America as I speak of Japanese if I move to Tokyo tomorrow. If I relied 100% on someone else to take care of every day-to-day for me from bills to groceries, they could easily take advantage.

The way of Japanese is not to throw a person under the bus as the shame of the mistake is more than enough punishment. In America, things take a different turn and the transition of this story seems to start Japanese and quickly turn American for the translator.

If anyone thinks they really need to dump their Ohtanis cheap because they got caught up in TMZ, please let me know. He's going nowhere and this issue will probably leave him smelling like a rose to his Japanese fans that think he handled it honorably in decorum.

If I am wrong, I'll take it...but I am certainly not losing sleep.

Maybe he's a generational degenerate, the likes of which we've never seen. Or maybe not at all, only time and facts will tell.

But anyone who thinks they can accurately peg a person with a gambling problem, or the "type" of person, is delusional. All you know is what you've seen and you have not seen it all, no matter what your experience.

Well put, but as I understand it, there is less than a 1% chance you are right. Apparently it has to do with the honor system that all Japanese must follow.

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Indeed.

As for honor, if this turns out not to have been a “theft” and Ohtani had some knowledge of it all he’s going to look like a bit of a turd for not quashing that narrative immediately and letting it exist as the official statement for so long. But if that’s not the case, then no worry. Honor intact.

My comment was on MLB embracing gambling in general, I was not trying to make a connection with Ohtani.

Travis, do you feel that your professional gambling experience gave you an edge when buying cards? John

Justin, I lived and worked in Japan for about 7 years, so I wish you luck in your new life in Nippon. It is a fascinating country in so many ways, Westernized in so many respects but a culture still steeped in the Samurai culture.
Try to take a few Japanese language lessons. Even if primitive, a few words in Japanese can melt the ice.

Just wondering why this thread isn't moved to the Watercooler section, as this is exactly what this thread is about.

Well said

I've lived and breathed gambling for decades. I assure you it is quite possible to peg someone with a gambling problem. I made a living off of figuring out which of my opponents exhibited the telltale symptoms. I'm not delusional. I'm extremely calculated and observant. Ohtani carries himself in the precise opposite manner of a degenerate. I'm not saying he doesn't ever place bets, but he's not a degenerate gambler. I'd bet money on it ;)

I LOVE Japan. Tokyo is hands down my favorite city.

+1

Because, sadly, that is the world that the internet has created.

Considering how backloaded his contract is, I won't take that bet.

You cannot possibly know enough about him, unless you know him personally, to be able to say one way or another. What's your exposure to him? You've wetched how he carries himself? Please. Not that you aren't right, but to say you have some special insight is not persuasive.

or is it this?

Not sure either one would qualify anyone to be able to identify someone they have never met and know nothing about as someone who likes gambling or has a problem with gambling.

I will never question your expertise as a data scientist as I have read things you have written on the topic and I am sold but not so much in many other areas you seem to hold yourself as an expert.

I wish I could just tell if a stranger I don’t know is guilty of X sin or Y sin or Z sin. That would be an incredible superpower to have.


I also wish I knew where the posters talking about or implying bets on baseball games are getting their information here and how it relates to Ohtani.

I haven't been following this story much, but did I see something that the bets were actually Ohtani's?

Here's the timeline according to ESPN:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ara-theft-line

Essentially, it says Mizuhara was lying to everyone at the beginning, through the team meeting after Game 1 against the Padres.

All communications between Shohei Ohtani and anyone else, had to go through Mizuhara, since he was the only interpreter around.

Even during the meeting, Shohei didn't know what was being said, since it was all in English.

After the meeting, Shohei asked someone what had been said.

It was at that point, that a different interpreter was brought in.

Shohei said he didn't recognize any of the things Mizuhara had said.

That's when Shohei's team came out with their side of things, regarding it being a theft, and Mizuhara was fired.

Steve

Where is the contradiction? Both statements are true. Just because I retired from gambling professionally to pursue a career in data science doesn't mean I suddenly stopped gambling altogether. I still gamble regularly. In fact I just gambled this week. Played a poker tournament. Made the final table.

I don't know him at all. Never met him and don't know anyone who has. But I know degenerate gamblers. They can't help themselves. A degenerate gambler isn't capable of signing the type of contract that he signed with the Dodgers. They don't make prudent decisions. They don't carry themselves with poise. They bathe themselves in shame and it's written all over their faces. Ohtani carries himself with honor. A degenerate gambling addiction is a coping mechanism for someone who is clinically depressed. Ohtani is the polar opposite of someone like that. You don't have to know him personally to observe these traits or to learn about the types of decisions he makes in life that preclude him from someone who fits the degenerate gambling profile. Most of them are also alcoholics.

Again, I'm not saying he doesn't gamble to some extent. I have no idea if he does or not. I'm just saying he's not a degenerate if so. You're free to disagree all you want. I don't really care. I'm just sharing my opinion and I'm confident in my reads of people.

From that article it is still clear that there isn’t a criminal investigation being conducted by any known law enforcement agency.

Still doesn’t seem like the central question has been answered: did anyone steal anything from anyone?

$4.5 million dollars is a lot of cash, plus all that wire fraud if the wires weren't from Ohtani himself. Seems like someone would have an interest if a crime occurred.

The issue is whether he gambled or not, not whether he is a "degenerate" gambler, as you acknowledge. So why is that even relevant? And clinical depression is not necessarily obvious from public demeanor either.

Face it. The interp had a dick job and pissed it all away due to greed. Maybe if he cuts Manfred's grass for the next 100 years he'll get a pass?

Not sure if this has been said yet… But did the interpreter work for Ohtani or the ball club? If Ohtani, then he could just 1099 him for all that money and take that off his adjustable gross, could he not? It wouldn’t be a criminal act if Ohtani didn’t file charges and would look good for the Japanese code or something along those lines.

I'm pretty sure he was employed by the Dodgers since everything I've read talked about hom being fired by the Dodgers.

This is correct. He was paid by the Dodgers...over 300K a year the guy was making. I think it is standard practice that the team covers the cost of an interpreter.

My understanding is that he has been with Ohtani since before his time with the Angels (?) so I'm sure Ohtani's deal was $2 mil a year + Mizuhara + etc.

According to the ESPN article, Mizuhara got around $85K per year from the Dodgers.

The next question I'd ask is this:

How could all of this affect Shohei's contract with the Dodgers?

Meaning, how much did the two sides rely on Mizuhara as the interpreter? Is Shohei fully aware of all the details in the contract?

If Mizuhara pulled any shenanigans in the negotiation of the contract, what will happen to it?

Steve

Per an ESPN article yesterday:

Mizuhara had a contract with the Los Angeles Angels when Ohtani played there and signed with the Dodgers this offseason. Mizuhara confirmed to ESPN he has been paid between $300,000 and $500,000 annually.

I would think that Ohtani's agents and lawyers were more involved with the contract negotiations than his interpreter would have been.

How do you file an income tax return when you aren't sure if you pulled in $300k or almost twice that?

.

His salary probably varies depending on various factors, from year to year. Mine does.

My mistake.

I went back and looked at the ESPN timeline, and it says that according to Mizuhara, he was paid around $85K by the Angels in 2021/22, and by then, he had lost over $1M.

By the end of 2022 Mizuhara had lost over $1 million. His debt then ballooned to $4 million by early 2023. He started gambling in 2021, when he first met the bookie.

So, between "the end of 2022", and "early 2023", his debt went from over $1M, to $4M! Remember, this was when he was making around (according to him), $85K per year. This guy was a complete mess!

Steve

Because he would have to be a true degenerate gambler to have placed any wagers that would jeopardize his baseball career.

No, I don't think so. Perhaps the skills that gave me an edge in gambling (mathematics & statistics) also helped me to analyze the sports card market, but I can't think of anything directly from that world that is particularly helpful here.

One thing that doesn't add up though, knowing how the underworlds of the sports betting world operate, is that there is no bookie on the planet that is going to extend a line of credit to someone for up to $4 million when they only make $300-500k per year, let alone $85k. So they must have felt confident that they would be receiving the money one way or another.

Travis, thanks for sharing this. Never heard of degenerate gambler, so I looked it up. Definitely opened my eyes.

https://gamblerspro.com/degenerate-gambler-are-you-one/

I've been collecting cards and sports memorabilia for 45 years, before recently selling everything off. At no point did I ever have the urge to spend money I didn't have, just to get that item I really wanted. It's just not in me.

I now know my Son is a degenerate gambler. I assume it started when he worked at a Casino right after high school. He worked there for a couple of years, but was later fired and banned from the Casino (I assume he stole from them). He had numerous jobs in which he stole from his employers to support his gambling habit. One business fired him for theft, then rehired him (owner was a friend of his mother), then he stole from them again. His only interaction with me over the last 15 years was when he was looking for money. He wasn't a good liar, so I didn't fall for his stories. I wouldn't hear from him for years at at time.

After not hearing from him for the past two years, he reached out to me. He told me that he was arrested for stealing from his employer and that they pressed charges (none of the other business filed charges, they just fired him). He said he was facing jail time and it scared him to death because he has a 6 year old son. I was able to check and verify that he was telling me the truth. He told me how he was going through counseling and how much he has learned from it, blah blah blah. Well, being that I was a legal officer in the military for 25 years, and I have seen many young Sailors turn themselves around after getting into trouble, I let my guard down. I believed and trusted him. I was proud of him for turning a corner to better his life. He was very convincing. He played me for about a month, before working his magic to get money out of me. I guess the father in me wanted to believe in him, more than I should have. He had a debt that he needed taken care, so I wanted to help him, so he could continue to get himself out of debt. Well, once he got the money (not a loan), he again pressed for money a few weeks later. That's when I knew he didn't learn a thing. Possible jail didn't scare him. When he wasn't going to get any more money from me, he got angry and turned back into his old nasty, hateful self again.

It's truly difficult for me to understand the mindset they have. But the above article did help somewhat. It's truly sad to see my Son ruin his life over gambling. And he's not even good at it.

Thanks, Tony