1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ? [Archive]

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04-03-2009, 08:06 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIt was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams, a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. In the Fall of 1947, we experienced one of the most exciting World Series ever played. 1947 was a tremendous year for BB, and a great start for me in the wonderful life-long hobby of col- lecting BB cards. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set. 1947 Homogenized BOND BREAD wrapper <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bondbreadwrapper.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Many cards in this set are the very 1st (or rookie) cards issued of the players. Shown here are the 1st cards of Yogi Berra, Stan Musial, Jackie Pobinson, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner and Bobby Thomson. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1947bb6rookiestars.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> This set has been the source of much confusion in the hobby for many years. The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages. Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "imposters". Shown here are two cards from the 1949 (unknown) issue which includes 24 of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were included. These cards may have been printed by the same firm that printed the 1947 set. However, their SQUARE corners and their inferior cardboard stock belie the fact that these cards are NOT related to the "1947 Bond Bread" issue. A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this col- lection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49). 1949 (unknown) issue <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1949cardsrizzutostewart.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> A 1947 Bond Bread Team/checklist will follow in the next post here. TED Z

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04-03-2009, 09:37 PM

Posted By: Jim ThierfelderGreat post Ted, very informative. The Bond bread cards are a little before my time but I always enjoy hearing stories about collecting before collecting was big business.

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04-03-2009, 10:25 PM

Posted By: Mark TylickiGreat stuff Ted Here's one of the Exhibit size issues labeled as a Bond Bread... <img src="http://www.rustywilly.com/cards/PSACARD/1229940_051_FRONT.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.rustywilly.com/cards/PSACARD/1229940_051_BACK.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-04-2009, 03:16 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere is the Walker Cooper card that I noted in the initial post here. It was never included in the original 1947 Bond Bread (ROUND cornered cards) issue. And, this fact tells us that indeed there was a subsequent (SQUARE cornered cards) issue....totally unrelated to the 1947 Bond Bread issue. <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1193714837/last-1195061538/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1193714837/last-1195061538/</a> Another factor telling us that these 2 issues (the 1947 and the "1949") are unrelated....is why are all 48 original cards not available in the SQUARE version ? Only 24 of the BB cards and two of the Boxing cards from the 1947 set are in the SQUARE version. And, added in the SQUARE version was Walker Cooper. I do not claim to be an expert regarding these SQUARE cards. They are a real "mystery" to most in the hobby. And, I do not know of anyone that can solve this mystery. Any new thoughts on this subject are greatly appreciated. TED Z

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04-04-2009, 05:34 AM

Posted By: Dan ParadisExcellent post Ted. Here's the few Bond Bread cards I have: Dan <img src="http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u265/danp306/Berra1947BondBreadSGC30-1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u265/danp306/P3110316.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-04-2009, 07:21 AM

Posted By: Sean CI've always wanted to know more about these cards, and specifically about the Robinson cards. I remember back in the late 80's, early 90's there was a reported big find of the square corner cards that were being sold through SCD and other hobby magazines. You can still usually find them for less than $100 or so. Were they legit, or just reprints? While checking for an image of it on eBay, I did find this even more interesting card: <img src="http://joesvintagesportscards.com/Merchant2/graphics/Graded_Pics/G1_1229940-011.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> It's the same image as the Robinson I was referring to above, I've never seen or heard about it before (the cut or the image on the back. Does anyone have any info about it?

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04-04-2009, 08:20 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bondbread1947jdybtwjr.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Listed here are the 44 BB cards in this set by Teams and the 4 Boxers NEW YORK GIANTS ------------------- JOHNNY MIZE SID GORDON LARRY JANSEN SHELDON JONES BUDDY KERR WHITEY LOCKMAN WILLARD MARSHALL BOBBY THOMSON BROOKLYN DODGERS -------------------- JACKIE ROBINSON REX BARNEY RALPH BRANCA BRUCE EDWARDS CARL FURILLO JOE HATTEN GIL HODGES PEE WEE REESE NEW YORK YANKEES -------------------- JOE DiMAGGIO LARRY BERRA JOE GORDON CHARLIE KELLER JOHNNY LINDELL PHIL RIZZUTO AARON ROBINSON BOSTON RED SOX ------------------ TED WILLIAMS DOM DIMAGGIO BOBBY DOERR JOHNNY PESKY CLEVELAND INDIANS --------------------- BOB FELLER LOU BOUDREAU KEN KELTNER BIRDIE TEBBETTS ST LOUIS CARDINALS ---------------------- STAN MUSIAL HARRY BRECHEEN ENOS SLAUGHTER BOSTON BRAVES ----------------- JOHNNY SAIN BOB ELLIOTT TOMMY HOLMES CINCINNATI REDS ------------------- EWELL BLACKWELL JOHNNY VANDERMEER CHICAGO CUBS ------------- ANDY PAFKO PHILADELPHIA ATHLETICS -------------------------- EDDIE JOOST PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES ------------------------- DEL ENNIS PITTSBURGH PIRATES ---------------------- RALPH KINER ST LOUIS BROWNS ------------------- VERN STEPHENS BOXERS -------- PRIMO CARNERA MARCEL CERDAN JAKE LAMOTTA JOE LOUIS TED Z

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04-04-2009, 08:55 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThere is a significant difference in the cardboard stock used in the original 1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards. When you compare these cards, you'll im- mmediately notice...... 1....the 1947 cards are slightly thicker 2....there is a faint gloss on the 1947 cards and not on the other cards 3....the contrast on the 1947 cards is superior to the other cards 4....the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect. ...................1947 BOND BREAD..................................SQUARE cards <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bondabkcompare.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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04-04-2009, 02:14 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanAlthough Primo Carnera was the world heavyweight champ in the 1930s, technically, the card in this set is a wrestling card since he is shown in his wrestling garb. Doesn't make a difference on pricing; he is still collected as a boxer. Hate to cause confusion, but the cards were sold in 4 boxes of 12 each as "Sports Star Subjects". I have a scan of the cards in the boxes from some auction years ago (don't recall which one). The front cards on the boxes are DiMaggio, Hodges, Slaughter and Robinson. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-04-2009, 05:45 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks MARK....DAN....SEAN....for the great scans of your cards. TED Z

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04-04-2009, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou have made my day with this statement of yours...... "" Hate to cause confusion, but the cards were sold in 4 boxes of 12 each as "Sports Star Subjects". "" On the contrary....no "confusion" here, guy. Indeed, confirmation of the SQUARE cards being issued as a set of their own. It's been my understanding that the SQUARE cards were 1st available in 1949, and into the 1950's in small boxes. Until now, I have referred to the SQUARE cards as an "unknown" issue. Thanks to you, now we can identify them as the "Sports Star Subjects" issue.....NOT a "1947 Bond Bread" issue. Shown here are 3 of the SQUARE cards. Two of which are the BB/Movie Star cards....Lou Boudreau/Ingrid Bergen and Johnny Mize/Victor Mature. Also, note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart. The Bond Bread cards are consistently 1/16 th of an inch narrower. ..| |<--1/16th inch <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abbmizeboudreau2jansen.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bbbergmanmaturejansenbks.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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04-04-2009, 06:47 PM

Posted By: Steve FTZ, This, being square-cornered, is a '49 then? <img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/oche16/Postwar%20baseball/bond-1.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-04-2009, 08:41 PM

Posted By: Steve Murray<img src="http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/jacklitsch1/Post%20War%20Cards/SquareFronts.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/jacklitsch1/Post%20War%20Cards/SquareBacks.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-04-2009, 09:04 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanDoes anyone know whether the same actors appear with the same athletes, or are different combos possible? Also, at the National a few years ago I purchased a rounded corners card of George Raft (actor); were there actor cards issued as well in 1947 in bread? Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-05-2009, 02:02 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisCan you please post F & B scans of the the George Raft card ? Also, match the width of this Raft card with any SQUARE card. Is its width different, or is it the same ? In 1947, in our neighborhood in NJ, we had 100's of the 1947 Bond Bread cards. I definitely recall that we never found any movie star cards in the Bond bread packages. I have never seen or heard of any ROUND cornered cards of movie stars. Perhaps, they were inserted in bread packages out west ? ? TED Z

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04-05-2009, 08:08 AM

Posted By: Sean CI don't own that perforated card Ted, it's one of Shoeless Joe's cards. I was just posting the image from his listing of it on eBay, as I had never seen one like it before.

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04-05-2009, 08:15 AM

Posted By: JDRUMTed, Nice thread as usual. I have a couple of ???? Did the cards come one to a loaf? Is there any way to know whether these cards were "out" bf the 1947 Tip Top bread cards? Thanks. Jeff

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04-05-2009, 10:00 AM

Posted By: PaulNow I'm really confused. I assumed that the square corner cards and the perforated cards were two entirely separate sets. But Ted seems to be lumping them together in his posts. Is there any reason to believe these are both actually from the same set?

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04-05-2009, 12:07 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanNow I have to dig it out of the cupboard. I can't compare it with the square cornered cards; I don't own any. It is exactly the same size as my round cornered Joe Louis, Jake LaMotta and Marcel Cerdan cards. Here is a picture of Louis and Raft side by side. Same white stock backs too. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1238954859.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1238955027.JPG" alt="[linked image]">

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04-05-2009, 12:29 PM

Posted By: dstudeba<img src="http://www.baseballcardresource.com/img/47Bond/Pages_A.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-05-2009, 12:38 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou are assuming something from my above scan of the 4 cards. I did not say that the BB/Movie Star combo cards were issued at the same time as the SQUARE card issue (that Adam W. identified as the "Sports Star Subjects" issue). Judging from the consistent discoloration of these perforated dual-cards, I'd say they were printed and issued in the 1950's. This brings up another mystery regarding the SQUARE cards that we haven't discussed yet. And, that is the "warehouse find" of 1000's of these cards in the early 1980's by David Festberg. I think the cards in this find are REPRINTS that may never have been in circulation. Until, of course, David started selling them. The cardboard that these cards are printed on is not as thick as the original cards. And, the printing quality and contrast of these cards is inferior to the original cards. TED Z

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04-05-2009, 12:41 PM

Posted By: SteveAs always great info. Thanks Ted. Steve

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04-05-2009, 12:59 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJEFF....two good "Q's"...... First, it's been 62 years since I was pulling these cards out of the Bond Bread loaves....so, I don't recall if there was one card or two in the package. I'll ask my sister, who seems to remember such trivia better than I. 2nd....Tip Top bread was actually the favorite in our house back in the 1940's and '50's. However, the bread we bought from the stores in the Hillside, NJ area never had the Tip Top cards in them. So, I can't give you an answer on this one. Perhaps, we will get lucky, and have some one on this forum chime in with the issue date of the Tip Top bread cards. Thanks, TED Z

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04-05-2009, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI haven't forgotten you, guy. The 1947 BOND BREAD Jackie Robinson set of 13 cards was indeed issued in 1947. These cards are the exact same size (2 1/4 x 3 1/2) as the general 1947 BOND BREAD set of 48 cards. However, it's my understanding that the JRobby cards were never inserted in the BOND BREAD packages....therefore, there was not a need to bevel their corners....so they remained SQUARE. They were promotional cards honoring JRobby that were issued by Bond Bread. I have heard that they were most likely distributed in the greater NYC area. We never saw them in our neighborhood stores in NJ. TED Z

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04-05-2009, 03:56 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIt's amazing what shows up on this forum. Your George Raft card is very cool. Raft was a "cool" villain in the movies back when I was a kid. There is no doubt that this card was packaged in a BOND BREAD loaf. Otherwise, why would it have rounded corners ? It certainly has the picture quality of the 48 cards in the 1947 Homogenized BOND BREAD set. However, I would guess that Bond Bread was inserting movie stars in their bread packages subsequent to the BB (and Boxing) cards of 1947. Furthermore, including movie stars in with the Bond bread may've been a regional thing. I have never seen (or heard) of Bond Bread packaging of movie star cards before you mentioned your Raft card. And, I've compared experiences collecting these Bond Bread cards with other hobbyists who collected these cards as kids (in Boston, Cleveland, St louis, etc.) and no one ever brought up any other cards than the known 48 in the '47 set. You have a really "rare bird" in your George Raft card. TED Z

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04-05-2009, 07:53 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisVery neat, thanks for sharing it with us. The original 1947 Bond Bread cards were available in the bread loaves in the Sring of '47 thru sometime in 1948. After then they were premiums in several grocery products such as your display. TED Z

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04-05-2009, 09:10 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanI rescued George from a junk box on a dealer's table because of his association with the Jewish mob. Raft ran with a tough crowd as a kid but happened to be talented enough to have a different route out of poverty. He was a friend of several major crime figures, including Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lansky. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-06-2009, 11:02 AM

Posted By: David MTed, I was one of those that bought a "set" from David Festberg back in the 1980's. I believe it is unlikely that anyone reprinted these cards and then stuck them in a warehouse. It seems more likely that they were leftovers from the "Sports Star Subjects" issue that Mr. Festberg then found stored. You said the cards David sold were inferior to the originals in print quality and contrast but how do they compare to the "Sports Star Subjects" cards. Are they the same? I guess that leaves us with the other question. Where do we think the combo cards came from?

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04-06-2009, 11:36 AM

Posted By: Bob C Good information Ted. Here is a Primo Carnera card I bought from Larry Fritsch a few years ago along with some others. They were indeed advertised as 1947 Bond Bread. Primo way past his time here...any excuse to wear tights I guess <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> <img src="http://www.rbcraik.com/ebay/primobond.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-06-2009, 01:03 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanIn 1946, a few years after he finally retired as a fighter, Primo Carnera became a wrestler and wrestled until retiring in 1961. So did Joe Louis for a time when he needed the money. If you see the movie "Requiem For A Heavyweight" where Anthony Quinn's broken-down fighter ends up being a pro wrestler afterwards, that's based on Carnera. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-06-2009, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHey big guy.....in 1956, Playhouse 90 (on TV) also did "Requiem for a Heavyweight" with Jack Palance in the lead role. Both performances (the TV one and the movie) were great. Anthony Quinn has always been one of my favorite actors. I will reiterate.....you have enlighten us on 2 fronts in this thread.....identifying the early version of the SQUARE cards as the "Sports Star Subjects" issue....and, the existence of Bond Bread packaged movie star cards. This thread is a great example of the powerful resources we have in this forum. I really appreciate your contributions here in unraveling some of the mysteries associated with these cards. Best regards, TED Z

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04-06-2009, 03:32 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIt's my understanding that only 24 cards (22 BB and Joe Louis & Primo Carnera) were in the sets that Dave Festberg sold. Is this true for the set you have ? You may be right about the cards in Festburg's "find" not being "Reprints"; however, illustrated here is the problem I have with the "Festburg cards". .................1947 Bond Bread....................."1949 Sports Star Subjects" <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abb2jansen2stephens.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> .................1947 Bond Bread.....................card from Festburg "find" BACKS <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bbb2jansen2stephens.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Note the difference in the discolored cardboard of the Festburg "find" card Furthermore, the two Jansen cards and the 1947 Bond Bread Stephens card are printed on thicker cardboard than the SQUARE Stephens card. Also, there is a higher printing quality (contrast) in two Jansen cards and the 1947 Bond Bread Stephens card with respect to the Stephens card of the Festberg find. David....one final question....if you tell me that your set has only 24 cards, then what happened to the other 24 cards in the original set of 48 cards ? Best regards and thanks for posting, TED Z

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04-06-2009, 04:26 PM

Posted By: David MTed, thanks for responding. I'll have to check what cards I have when I get home and I'll post an answer.

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04-06-2009, 07:15 PM

Posted By: David MTed, I do indeed have 24 cards in my "set". However, none are discolored on the back as you show. They are a creamy white. The 24 include Stan Musial, Jackie Robinson, Ted Williams, Ralph Kiner, Phil Rizzuto, Enos Slaughter, Bob Feller, Johnny Mize, Lou Boudreau, Bobbie Doerr, John Sain, Vern Stephens, Ken Keltner, Bob Elliott, Johnny Pesky, Ewell Blackwell, Del Ennis, Andy Pafko, Harry Brechen, Joe Gordon, Aaron Robinson, Tommy Holmes, and Joe Louis, and Primo Carnera. They are of course, square cornered and thinner than a regular card. But I can't explain why the backs appear different than what you are reporting.

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04-06-2009, 09:01 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for posting your cards.....and, judging from the backs, your cards appear to be uncirculated ones from the Sports Star Subjects issue. Just as you previously said. All I can say is that these little B/W cards never cease to amaze me. I was under the impression that Festberg's find con- sisted of the SQUARE cards printed on the "inferior" cardboard stock. Back to the drawing board for me....because we still haven't determined the source of the cards that are on thinner stock whose backs are discolored. I still maintain that some where along the line, some one "reprinted" (or reproduced) them from the 24 cards in your set. As, the identical subjects are found with the inferior cardboard (and, none of the other 24 in the original 1947 Bond Bread set). TED Z

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04-06-2009, 10:15 PM

Posted By: David MTed, that theory makes sense. So when do we think the 24 cards I have were made (1949)? It's a shame all of the square cornered cards have been lumped together by the grading companies. I think it was mentioned before that the major grading companies won't grade these, is that correct? Maybe this thread will make them rethink their position on these cards.

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04-07-2009, 05:33 AM

Posted By: boxingcardman1. Where do we fit in the PC sized cards? 2. Who is known in the PC sized cards? 3. Has anyone compiled a checklist of the 2 sided perforated cards? Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-07-2009, 04:36 PM

Posted By: David MAdam, I have some other questions regarding the cards you mentioned, the "Sports Star Subjects". You said they were issued in 4 boxes of 12 each. So I assume that means there are 48 different cards in that issue which would match the original 1947 Bond Bread cards. You mentioned these cards and how they were sold. Did you see them for sell in the store, if so what year? Or did you see the boxes for sell in some auction? It would be great if we were able to figure out the date of issue. I noticed your George Raft card doesn't have the same script used for his name as the baseball and boxing cards. Based on this significant difference, my guess is that your movie star card is not really one of the bread cards. Or if it is, it is from a completely different year. But that's just a guess.

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04-07-2009, 06:04 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe Movie Stars' cards had their names printed.....note my Jimmy Stewart card. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1949cardsrizzutostewart.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> George Raft had close connections to Baseball. As a teenager, he was a bat-boy for the New York Highlanders (circa 1910). He also tried out for semi-pro baseball before becoming a movie star. An avid baseball fan, George Raft would attend every World Series from the late 1920's thru to 1957. Barry Sloate has seen many autographed items (photos, etc.) of Raft with star BB players. TED Z

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04-07-2009, 06:06 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishI have been reading this thread with interest and have now scanned a 1/22/93 SCD article concerning the 24 card "subset". Whether or not the author's comments are all true I cannot say but is does shed some light no matter: <img src="http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/Bond1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/bond2.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/bond3.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-07-2009, 06:47 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for digging up this article. It essentially covers about everything we have mulled over in th 40 posts in this thread. There is one comment in it that confirms my understanding of the Festberg "warehouse find" of the SQUARE cards. The author notes "the square cards are beige backed, while the round cards are stark white". Yet, David M. has one of these sets and the backs of his 24 cards are "stark white" ? ? This is really becoming frustrating, we just cannot arrive at a consistent set of facts regarding these SQUARE cards. TED Z

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04-07-2009, 08:50 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanI currently own a round cornered Joe Louis (illustrated above). I've also had the square cornered ones in the past. The round Louis I own is the only one I've ever found up for sale. The square cards are available all the time. I think we may actually have a situation where the round cards went into bread, the square cards went into boxes, and the find added 3000 cards each to the pop of 24 of the square cards. Here is an image of the cards in the boxes; I guess these would be W571 <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1239159034.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-08-2009, 09:37 AM

Posted By: David MOk, so based on the cards showing through the front of these boxes, the Festberg "find" was of series 3 and series 4 cards. That means the more difficult to find cards are all from series 1 and 2. Thanks for posting the picture of the boxes.

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04-08-2009, 12:57 PM

Posted By: PaulBut why is there a difference in back color between the Festberg find and the ones that were sold in boxes?

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04-08-2009, 01:26 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe set of 48 (SQUARE) cards in the Sports Star Subjects issue are most likely "excess press runs" of cards from the original 1947 Bond Bread set. The 1947 ROUND cards were available in Bond bread from 1947 thru 1948. My guess is that the Sports Star Subjects set was available in 1949 thru the 1950's. In my opinion, the source of the 3000 cards in the Festberg find are anyone's guess....."reprints" or whatever. If their backs are discolored ("beige"....as the article described), then they are definitely not "excess" cards from the original 1947 printing. This has been my contention from the start, and it still stands. Unless someone can otherwise con- vince me. TED Z

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04-09-2009, 11:43 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe pictures for many of the 1947 Bond Bread cards were derived from the Team Photo Packs sold at the souvenir stands at the Stadiums. Any one know if the same printing firm printed the photos and the cards ? <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1947stadpixbbcards.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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04-15-2009, 08:00 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJDRUM asked an excellent question earlier in this thread...... "Is there any way to know whether these cards (1947 Bond Bread) were "out" bf the 1947 Tip Top bread cards?" Jeff.....I've looked into this, and judging from my Tip Top Yankees team sub-set which includes Mel Queen, my best guess is that the Tip Top set was issued in the Spring of '47. Mel Queen was traded to the Pittsburgh in July of '47. I did not collect the Tip Top cards as a kid....However, I think it is safe to say that the Bond and Tip Top sets were issued simultaneously. I highly recommend to Net54er's to view a video (or read) of the events of the 1947 World Series. There were many stars in this exciting 7-game series. Over the years it's been very interesting how average ballplayers have raised the level of their game in World Series play to become the "hero". Johnny Lindell was such a "hero" in the 1947 W. S. Besides his two tremendous diving catches in LF to squelch Dodger rallies....his batting Stats led both teams. 6.........Games (injury kept him out of 7th game) 18.......AB 9.........Hits 7.........RBI .500.....BA .778.....SLA <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1947bbstadpixlindell.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

wastewater

06-08-2009, 06:22 PM

See attached for some movie stars. I thought the back was interesting as I hadn't seen the 46 cards mentioned before like this. The Hess reference looks to be a stamp added after printing.

iggyman

12-30-2009, 08:02 PM

Before I begin, let me state that this is an old thread (from early 2009........I can still remember that year as though it was yesterday....).

This is for prosperity and for Ted Z.... The following eBay item just ended:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230415942970

It was for the complete 24 card '47 Bond Bread imposter cards/set (22 baseball + Joe Louis & Primo Carnera) which were unearthed by Dave Festberg. The seller stated he purchased the set in 1990 from B&J as noted in the SCD article. The card backs were the beige variety not the white version.

I passed on bidding on this item but was surprised to see it only sold for $102 (Nr/Mt set). I have always greatly appreciated everything I have learned (and continue learning) about this set from Ted Z., but at the end of his dissertations it always makes my head hurt. Plus, there is always the possibility that it is in fact a reprinted set. Guess, others feel the same way.

Lovely Day...

Exhibitman

12-31-2009, 12:49 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanI rescued George from a junk box on a dealer's table because of his association with the Jewish mob. Raft ran with a tough crowd as a kid but happened to be talented enough to have a different route out of poverty. He was a friend of several major crime figures, including Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lansky.

He also was a pro boxer under the name Brownie Ranft. He had 17 fights before calling it quits.

tedzan

12-31-2009, 02:40 PM

Here's George Raft (upper rightmost) and 9 of the major Movie Stars in this set (circa 1949).
Incidently, the backs of these cards are white.

George Raft had close connections to Baseball. As a 15-year old, he was a bat-boy for the New York Highlanders (circa 1910).
He also tried out for semi-pro baseball before becoming a movie star. An avid baseball fan, George Raft attended every World
Series from the late 1920's thru to 1957.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1949moviestars10.jpg

TED Z

Robextend

12-31-2009, 02:42 PM

Rita Hayworth....nothing wrong with that!!!!

Pat R

12-08-2013, 09:04 AM

A few weeks ago my best friend from H.S. brought me some of his cards
to take a look at and give him an idea on the value of some of them.

Among them were these cards. I remember him telling me about them
when he got them. His mother purchased them for him through an add
in the NY Times back in the late 80's-early 90's.

I found this old thread while doing some research and I believe they
must have come from the "Festberg" find. Is there any new info on
these, any idea's on the value of them. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Patrick

joeadcock

12-08-2013, 09:14 PM

Pat.....guess you can call this an imposter. I dont recall the name of this set. It has the same front of Aaron Robinson one side(as one of the cards you have) and an actor(recognize the face but dont know actor's name) on other side of the card. Presumably same year.

Leon

12-10-2013, 02:35 PM

Pat.....guess you can call this an imposter. I dont recall the name of this set. It has the same front of Aaron Robinson one side(as one of the cards you have) and an actor(recognize the face but dont know actor's name) on other side of the card. Presumably same year.

Neat cards....have pics on both sides, I have them classified as W571/D305- Bond Bread perforated, but more research is needed. Even in looking at one of the revisions (1967) of the ACC it is difficult to pinpoint their designation....From what I remember W571 was the best I could do :).

http://luckeycards.com/pw571perforated1947holmes.jpg

Sterling Sports Auctions

02-27-2014, 03:01 PM

So is there a conclusion as to the designation of the square borders and are they listed in the Standard Catalog?

tedzan

02-27-2014, 07:10 PM

posted by: ted zanidakisit's my understanding that only 24 cards (22 bb and joe louis & primo carnera) were in the sets that dave festberg sold. is this true for the set you have ? you may be right about the cards in festburg's "find" not being "reprints"; however, illustrated here is the problem i have with the "festburg cards". .................1947 bond bread....................."1949 sports star subjects" <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abb2jansen2stephens.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> .................1947 bond bread.....................card from festburg "find" backs <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bbb2jansen2stephens.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> note the difference in the discolored cardboard of the festburg "find" card furthermore, the two jansen cards and the 1947 bond bread stephens card are printed on thicker cardboard than the square stephens card. Also, there is a higher printing quality (contrast) in two jansen cards and the 1947 bond bread stephens card with respect to the stephens card of the festberg find. 

Lee

Email me and I will discuss this further...... tedzan11@comcast.net

TED Z

theshleps

07-16-2014, 12:54 AM

What do you think? Is it a 1947 or later
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-JACKIE-ROBINSON-PSA-DNA-SIGNED-SIGNATURE-AUTO-AUTOGRAPHED-BOND-BREAD-ROOKIE-/231281988410?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item35d97b133a

tedzan

07-16-2014, 01:46 PM

It looks like a 1947 from the BOND BREAD packages. All four corners appear to have a (partial) bevel. I say "partial" since the corner cuts
are not clean-cut.

I wish the seller would have shown the back of this card....in order for me to be certain that it is an original 1947.

TED Z

Exhibitman

07-16-2014, 01:59 PM

Picked this up recently and it seems to be made by the same production people as the Bond etc. cards and related materials. It is the size of a commemorative postage stamp, blank backed, real photo.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Unc%20Kell%20Stamp.jpg

jasoneggert

07-18-2014, 03:40 PM

What do you think? Is it a 1947 or later
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-JACKIE-ROBINSON-PSA-DNA-SIGNED-SIGNATURE-AUTO-AUTOGRAPHED-BOND-BREAD-ROOKIE-/231281988410?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item35d97b133a

Later

ls7plus

07-18-2014, 06:51 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere is the Walker Cooper card that I noted in the initial post here. It was never included in the original 1947 Bond Bread (ROUND cornered cards) issue. And, this fact tells us that indeed there was a subsequent (SQUARE cornered cards) issue....totally unrelated to the 1947 Bond Bread issue. <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1193714837/last-1195061538/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1193714837/last-1195061538/</a> Another factor telling us that these 2 issues (the 1947 and the "1949") are unrelated....is why are all 48 original cards not available in the SQUARE version ? Only 24 of the BB cards and two of the Boxing cards from the 1947 set are in the SQUARE version. And, added in the SQUARE version was Walker Cooper. I do not claim to be an expert regarding these SQUARE cards. They are a real "mystery" to most in the hobby. And, I do not know of anyone that can solve this mystery. Any new thoughts on this subject are greatly appreciated. TED Z 

When the square-cornered versions came out in the '90's, there were opinions expressed that someone had found the original printing plates, and recenty ran off some more of at least select cards. I have the Mize and Kiner, acquired during that time period. Those do show the characteristic regular dot pattern which is consistent with them having been made from the original plates.

Best,

Larry

Exhibitman

04-09-2015, 10:35 AM

Some more perforated cards, and proof that the Hess Shoes was just a back stamp:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/1947%20Bond%20perforated%205.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/1947%20Bond%20perforated%207.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/1947%20Bond%20perforated%2012.JPG

Elgee says 46 cards of sports, Hollywood and cowboys and we know there are 44 ballplayers, 4 boxers and a bunch of actors potentially available. The ad looks to be 2 cards wide. I suspect there are at least two sheets, maybe more. Leon shows the Holmes with a FB player back, but the Holmes I am getting has actor Van Johnson on the back, and all three of the ad cards have different cowboy fronts. The group I purchased breaks down as follows:

Jackie Robinson/James Cagney
Pee Wee Reese/Western Back
Larry Jansen/Western Back
Harry Brecheen/Western Back
Rex Barney/Western Back
Bruce Edwards/Western Back
Buddy Kerr/Western Back
Roy Rogers/Western Back
Cary Grant/Western Back
Sheldon Jones/Western Back
Willard Marshall/Western Back
Tommy Holmes/Van Johnson
Claudette Colbert/Western Back
Ginger Roberts/Western Back
Gregory Peck/Western Back
Jennifer Jones/Western Back
Katherine Hepburn/Western Back
Lon McCallister/Western Back
Sonja Heine/Western Back
Western Front w/ Three Men/Ad Back
Western Front w/Two Men/Ad Back
Western Front w/One Man/Ad Back

Maybe we can take a shot at a master list?

Harford20

04-09-2015, 11:34 AM

Exhibitman, congrats on the group. I bid fairly heavily on this auction as well.

As far as your master list, I have one card I can add:

Ted Williams Front/Babe Zaharias back (have seen 3 of these, but no other combo with either Ted or Babe)

Dave

Exhibitman

04-09-2015, 05:55 PM

I was able to piece together a partial sheet. Definitely 4 cards across.

CharleyBrown

05-21-2015, 08:21 PM

Can't believe I missed that auction! If you ever decide to sell the Robinson, please let me know.

Amazing lot!

Exhibitman

05-22-2015, 05:53 AM

If I sell Robby it would be an auction because I have no idea how to price one.

Sterling Sports Auctions

06-08-2016, 08:24 AM

I asked this two years ago and going to try again in hope of getting a clear answer.

What is the conclusion to the designation of the square cornered baseball issues? 47 Bond, 47 Homogenizied or something else?

Thanks

Lee

tedzan

06-08-2016, 09:51 AM

Hi Lee

The Square cards were issued in 1948 or 1949 and marketed as "Sports Star Subjects". The proof of this issue date(s) is the inclusion of the Walker Cooper card
as a NY Giant (this subject was not in the original 1947 Bond Bread issue). Furthermore, Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49.

The Sports Star Subjects set of 48 (SQUARE) cards were sold in 4 boxes of 12 cards each.

TED Z
.

Sterling Sports Auctions

06-08-2016, 10:29 AM

Thanks for clearing this up, Ted

Lee

Exhibitman

06-08-2016, 12:18 PM

Has anyone been tracking these issues in terms of the RC nuttiness? Has it spilled into this collecting backwater?

Oh, and here's the Jackie Robinson image as I seem to have killed the one that was posted before:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1947%20Bond%20Bread%20Perforated%20Robinson-Cagney.jpg

tedzan

06-08-2016, 12:26 PM

Lee

I'm still researching this Sports Star Subjects set. I have yet to find any of the 4 packets containing 12 cards each
that these Square cards were sold in.

I've seen (or had) several of the individual cards (including the Walker Cooper card). Here's my Rizzuto and a sample
of the Movie Star issue (circa 1949-1950). I have a near complete set of the Movie Stars.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1949cardsrizzutostewart.jpg

Refer to post #8 in this thread to distinguish the original (1949) Square cards from the "Festberg find" Square reprint
cards with respect to the difference in the color of their backs (white vs. toned).

Looking forward to seeing you at the National.

TED Z
.

khkco4bls

06-08-2016, 01:29 PM

I'm not a card guy, but are those expensive per card

Kenny Cole

06-08-2016, 05:40 PM

Some of my Bond Bread cards

Leon

06-09-2016, 09:06 AM

I'm not a card guy, but are those expensive per card

Generally speaking it's not an expensive set relative to others.

Kenny- great looking cards there!!

GasHouseGang

06-10-2016, 10:31 AM

I believe this photo appeared in the original thread but I think the picture of the cards issued in the boxes disappeared. Here's the photo.

tedzan

06-10-2016, 12:08 PM

David M

Thanks for posting those packets.

They are the 4 packets of the Sports Star Subjects set (Square cards) that I alluded to in post #72 here.

TED Z
.

GasHouseGang

06-10-2016, 02:26 PM

Is there a checklist for each series of the Sports Stars? It says on the front of the boxes that each series contains 12 cards, but I am not sure if they are all baseball or if they are mixed sports.

khkco4bls

06-10-2016, 03:13 PM

That shot of robinson was also used in there picture pack.

Den*nis O*Brien

06-10-2016, 03:47 PM

I have no idea if this is relevant to the good work Ted and others have done but...I noticed that the same image was used in the "Imposter Series" as was used in the '38 Salutation Exhibit. It is clear to me by the brim on Andy's cap. Those boxes were very nice to see!!!

peterose4hof

06-29-2016, 09:18 AM

I just picked up this Ewell Blackwell with square corners (1949 version).

I was surprised that the card is a pretty flimsy paper stock with a semi-gloss back. Is that consistent with the series or is mine some sort of reprint/fantasy card?

http://photos.imageevent.com/allredscards/tobemoved/large/Ewell-Blackwell.jpg

GasHouseGang

06-29-2016, 10:13 AM

According to the SCD article, here's the checklist:
1. Rex Barney
2. Yogi Berra
3. Ewell Blackwell*
4. Lou Boudreau*
5. Ralph Branca
6. Harry Brecheen*
7. Primo Carnera*
8. Marchel Cerdan
9. Dom DiMaggio
10. Joe DiMaggio
11. Bobby Doerr*
12. Bruce Edwards
13. Bob Elliott*
14. Del Ennis*
15. Bob Feller*
16. Carl Furillo
17. Joe Gordon*
18. Cid Gordon
19. Joe Hatten
20. Gil Hodges
21. Tommy Holmes*
22. Larry Jansen
23. Sheldon Jones
24. Eddie Joost
25. Charlie Keller
26. Ken Keltner*
27. Buddy Kerr
28. Ralph Kiner*
29. Jake LaMotta
30. Johnny Lindell
31. Whitey Lockman
32. Joe Louis*
33. Willard Marshall
34. John Mize*
35. Stan Musial*
36. Andy Pafko*
37. Johnny Pesky*
38. Pee Wee Reese
39. Phil Rizzuto*
40. Jackie Robinson*
41. Aaron Robinson*
42. Johnny Sain*
43. Enos Slaughter*
44. Vern Stephens*
45. Birdie Tebbets
46. Bobby Thomson
47. Johnny Vander Meer
48. Ted Williams*

Ewell Blackwell was part of the square corner find, so that appears to be what you have. Not sure about the semi-gloss back, however. The backs are generally just regular paper stock and blank.

tedzan

06-29-2016, 06:49 PM

I just picked up this Ewell Blackwell with square corners (1949 version).

I was surprised that the card is a pretty flimsy paper stock with a semi-gloss back. Is that consistent with the series or is mine some sort of reprint/fantasy card?

http://photos.imageevent.com/allredscards/tobemoved/large/Ewell-Blackwell.jpg

Hey "Bubba"

Can we see a scan of the back of this Blackwell card.

TED Z
.

peterose4hof

06-30-2016, 03:08 PM

Hey "Bubba"

Can we see a scan of the back of this Blackwell card.

TED Z
.

Here 's the back scan.

http://photos.imageevent.com/allredscards/tobemoved/large/Ewell-Blackwell%20Back.jpg

GasHouseGang

06-30-2016, 03:59 PM

Here 's the back scan.

http://photos.imageevent.com/allredscards/tobemoved/large/Ewell-Blackwell%20Back.jpg

Here's what Ted had posted compared to yours. Yours doesn't look glossy to me, but it is a different color. I think yours compares to what is in my set of 24 square corners I picked up years ago.

revlis

07-01-2016, 09:49 AM

I'm new to vintage. Was wondering why this is not considered Jackie Robinson's rookie card? 1947 with rounded corners - this was around before the leaf set, correct?

Exhibitman

07-01-2016, 09:57 AM

It is a RC, but that doesn't make it popular.

tedzan

07-01-2016, 11:41 AM

All six of these 1947 Bond Bread cards can be considered the 1st Major League (rookie) cards issued of these BB players.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1947bb6rookiestars.jpg

However, the powers to be back in the 1970's overlooked these cards in favor of the Bowman and Leaf issues.

TED Z
.

revlis

07-01-2016, 07:05 PM

Thanks for the info. I like the idea of getting a "true" rookie card, might have to pick one of these up even if not as popular.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Leon

07-02-2016, 06:33 AM

It is a RC, but that doesn't make it popular.

+1 ....collectors can be finicky....

orly57

07-02-2016, 07:15 PM

This thread made me do it...

kevinlenane

07-02-2016, 07:43 PM

Here is an authentic rounded/beveled cornered Ted Williams which I have up n the Bay right now with an inexplicably low grade. They are tough on these guys - i was shooting for about double this and had a big mess in my diaper when i got it back in the mail.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182184104094?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/TlkAAOSwMN9XQ5XV/s-l1600.jpg

doolittle1.1.1

07-19-2016, 10:18 AM

Need your help,, cannot send Bond Pictures (22) for verification. Even when I try to send email it says no no.Been at this for 2days and feel like IQ is 40 Minus that is

doolittle1.1.1

07-19-2016, 10:22 AM

It almost looks like these rounded corners come from picture holders in those days. Mine all have what looks like scotch tape angled at the corners just like the picture holders. Your thoughts please... thank you, Douglas

Bliggity

07-19-2016, 11:24 AM

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah316/dmblau/Bond%20Fronts_zpsuyads5x8.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah316/dmblau/Bond%20Backs_zps1brw24yj.jpg

tedzan

07-19-2016, 12:36 PM

It almost looks like these rounded corners come from picture holders in those days. Mine all have what looks like scotch tape angled at the corners just like the picture holders. Your thoughts please... thank you, Douglas

Douglas

I collected these cards back in 1947. I pulled them out of BOND BREAD packages. Their corners were Factory (die cut) rounded.

FYI....I'm reprising my initial post here.

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIt was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams, a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. In the Fall of 1947, we experienced one of the most exciting World Series ever played. 1947 was a tremendous year for BB, and a great start for me in the wonderful life-long hobby of col- lecting BB cards. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set. 1947 Homogenized BOND BREAD wrapper <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bondbreadwrapper.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Many cards in this set are the very 1st (or rookie) cards issued of the players. Shown here are the 1st cards of Yogi Berra, Stan Musial, Jackie Pobinson, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner and Bobby Thomson. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1947bb6rookiestars.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> 

TED Z

doolittle1.1.1

07-19-2016, 08:37 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIt was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams, a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. In the Fall of 1947, we experienced one of the most exciting World Series ever played. 1947 was a tremendous year for BB, and a great start for me in the wonderful life-long hobby of col- lecting BB cards. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set. 1947 Homogenized BOND BREAD wrapper <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bondbreadwrapper.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Many cards in this set are the very 1st (or rookie) cards issued of the players. Shown here are the 1st cards of Yogi Berra, Stan Musial, Jackie Pobinson, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner and Bobby Thomson. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1947bb6rookiestars.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> This set has been the source of much confusion in the hobby for many years. The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages. Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "imposters". Shown here are two cards from the 1949 (unknown) issue which includes 24 of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were included. These cards may have been printed by the same firm that printed the 1947 set. However, their SQUARE corners and their inferior cardboard stock belie the fact that these cards are NOT related to the "1947 Bond Bread" issue. A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this col- section as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49). 1949 (unknown) issue <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1949cardsrizzutostewart.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> A 1947 Bond Bread Team/checklist will follow in the next post here. TED Z I do believe you are correct with 1947 vs 1949. The photo of Rizzuto shows his full signature. My photo only shows part of it which means mine is a smaller photo, because they have been in my posssession since 1947/1949 and the back of at least 20 are white and not yellow. The thickness is thin, compared to cards of that era, therefore, I believe this set is the 1949 version Doolittle1.1.1

Leon

07-21-2016, 03:14 PM

Douglas

I collected these cards back in 1947. I pulled them out of BOND BREAD packages. Their corners were Factory (die cut) rounded.

FYI....I'm reprising my initial post here.

And an informative reprisal thread is always welcome. Most board members didn't collect in 1947. :)

Paul S

07-22-2016, 08:33 AM

And an informative reprisal thread is always welcome. Most board members didn't collect in 1947. :)

Many of us have enjoyed ripping wax, most of us would love to have ripped tobacco and caramel...Ted is the only one I know that has ripped flour.

PowderedH2O

07-22-2016, 09:35 AM

Many of us have enjoyed ripping wax, most of us would love to have ripped tobacco and caramel...Ted is the only one I know that has ripped flour.

Now that's just funny right there... and true...lol

doolittle1.1.1

07-22-2016, 12:53 PM

Please post the names of the Players 2nd set square corners. thank you, Douglas

GasHouseGang

07-22-2016, 01:53 PM

According to the SCD article, here's the checklist:
1. Rex Barney
2. Yogi Berra
3. Ewell Blackwell*
4. Lou Boudreau*
5. Ralph Branca
6. Harry Brecheen*
7. Primo Carnera*
8. Marchel Cerdan
9. Dom DiMaggio
10. Joe DiMaggio
11. Bobby Doerr*
12. Bruce Edwards
13. Bob Elliott*
14. Del Ennis*
15. Bob Feller*
16. Carl Furillo
17. Joe Gordon*
18. Cid Gordon
19. Joe Hatten
20. Gil Hodges
21. Tommy Holmes*
22. Larry Jansen
23. Sheldon Jones
24. Eddie Joost
25. Charlie Keller
26. Ken Keltner*
27. Buddy Kerr
28. Ralph Kiner*
29. Jake LaMotta
30. Johnny Lindell
31. Whitey Lockman
32. Joe Louis*
33. Willard Marshall
34. John Mize*
35. Stan Musial*
36. Andy Pafko*
37. Johnny Pesky*
38. Pee Wee Reese
39. Phil Rizzuto*
40. Jackie Robinson*
41. Aaron Robinson*
42. Johnny Sain*
43. Enos Slaughter*
44. Vern Stephens*
45. Birdie Tebbets
46. Bobby Thomson
47. Johnny Vander Meer
48. Ted Williams*

If I understand what you're asking, which is what players show up in the square corner set, they are marked here with an *.

tedzan

07-22-2016, 06:03 PM

I don't believe this list is correct....Walker Cooper should be on this list.

TED Z

GasHouseGang

07-22-2016, 08:58 PM

I believe you, but he isn't on the SCD list. Do you see someone that shouldn't be on the list?

spec

07-22-2016, 09:19 PM

I don't believe this list is correct....Walker Cooper should be on this list.

TED Z

Could someone post a Bond Bread-size Walker Cooper? It has been my understanding that he only appears in the exhibit-size version of this issue.

GasHouseGang

07-22-2016, 10:00 PM

I don't believe this list is correct....Walker Cooper should be on this list.

TED Z

Ted, your own list in post #7 doesn't include Walker Cooper.

doolittle1.1.1

07-23-2016, 02:18 PM

To stir the pot a bit. I have 22 cards of the square corners, which we all believe are the second set. Help my confusion here please. My Vern Stephens card shows him in a St. Louis Browns uniform and he played there in 47. If this card is a later version, would he not be in a Red Sox Suit.
Also, if I post my 22 cards, which 2 are missing or can I assume 2 from the original set? Douglas

doolittle1.1.1

07-23-2016, 03:04 PM

Following the list, I have cards (12 of them) that belong in the first list, but that cannot be, because they all are square corners, yet they all were purchased in the Late 40's as I am the only owner. 10 of them are correct according to the list. My total cards are 22 Douglas

GasHouseGang

07-23-2016, 03:34 PM

I think you need to show a scan of what you have. So you purchased yours in the 1940's?

doolittle1.1.1

07-23-2016, 04:26 PM

Yes, 1947-48 I believe. happy to post these, but the only way I can is one at a time on the printer, another way is from Smart Phone to my email and then to this site. Not to sharp on computer stuff, so if you advise, I will listen. Thank you, douglas

irv

07-23-2016, 04:44 PM

Yes, 1947-48 I believe. happy to post these, but the only way I can is one at a time on the printer, another way is from Smart Phone to my email and then to this site. Not to sharp on computer stuff, so if you advise, I will listen. Thank you, douglas

I assume your printer doesn't have a scanner?

Another way would be to take a picture, or 2-3, then upload them to your computer then use the "manage attachments" below your new post and upload them to the site.

Not sure the age of your computer and if it has a photo option, but there are many on the internet for free to use if you don't?

You'll have to ask what other's use/think is the best however.
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=picture%20uploading%20sites

Good luck. :)

GasHouseGang

07-23-2016, 05:37 PM

Yes, 1947-48 I believe. happy to post these, but the only way I can is one at a time on the printer, another way is from Smart Phone to my email and then to this site. Not to sharp on computer stuff, so if you advise, I will listen. Thank you, douglas

I think if you could just post a typed list of what you have, that would be informative, you don't have to show every card. If you could just post a picture of one card that isn't supposed to be available with square corners that would show an example of what you have.

doolittle1.1.1

07-23-2016, 06:22 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bondbread1947jdybtwjr.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Listed here are the 44 BB cards in this set by Teams and the 4 Boxers NEW YORK GIANTS ------------------- JOHNNY MIZE SID GORDON LARRY JANSEN SHELDON JONES BUDDY KERR WHITEY LOCKMAN WILLARD MARSHALL BOBBY THOMSON BROOKLYN DODGERS -------------------- JACKIE ROBINSON REX BARNEY RALPH BRANCA BRUCE EDWARDS CARL FURILLO JOE HATTEN GIL HODGES PEE WEE REESE NEW YORK YANKEES -------------------- JOE DiMAGGIO LARRY BERRA JOE GORDON CHARLIE KELLER JOHNNY LINDELL PHIL RIZZUTO AARON ROBINSON BOSTON RED SOX ------------------ TED WILLIAMS DOM DIMAGGIO BOBBY DOERR JOHNNY PESKY CLEVELAND INDIANS --------------------- BOB FELLER LOU BOUDREAU KEN KELTNER BIRDIE TEBBETTS ST LOUIS CARDINALS ---------------------- STAN MUSIAL HARRY BRECHEEN ENOS SLAUGHTER BOSTON BRAVES ----------------- JOHNNY SAIN BOB ELLIOTT TOMMY HOLMES CINCINNATI REDS ------------------- EWELL BLACKWELL JOHNNY VANDERMEER CHICAGO CUBS ------------- ANDY PAFKO PHILADELPHIA ATHLETICS -------------------------- EDDIE JOOST PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES ------------------------- DEL ENNIS PITTSBURGH PIRATES ---------------------- RALPH KINER ST LOUIS BROWNS ------------------- VERN STEPHENS BOXERS -------- PRIMO CARNERA MARCEL CERDAN JAKE LAMOTTA JOE LOUIS TED Z In my set(square corners) is Vern Stephens and 9 others that are listed in the second set but are not really there. So , my question is trying to understand if my squares are such a late issue, would Stephens be wearing a St Louis Brown uniform

doolittle1.1.1

07-23-2016, 06:49 PM

I think if you could just post a typed list of what you have, that would be informative, you don't have to show every card. If you could just post a picture of one card that isn't supposed to be available with square corners that would show an example of what you have.
rex barney ewell blackwell lou boudreau harry brecheen dom d joe d bobby doer bob elliot carl furillo cid gordon tommy holmes larry jansen eddie joost buddy kerr johnny lindel willard marshall pee wee reese phil rizzuto jackie robinson johnny sain bobby thompson vern stephens

doolittle1.1.1

07-24-2016, 06:49 AM

Before I begin, let me state that this is an old thread (from early 2009........I can still remember that year as though it was yesterday....).

This is for prosperity and for Ted Z.... The following eBay item just ended:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230415942970

It was for the complete 24 card '47 Bond Bread imposter cards/set (22 baseball + Joe Louis & Primo Carnera) which were unearthed by Dave Festberg. The seller stated he purchased the set in 1990 from B&J as noted in the SCD article. The card backs were the beige variety not the white version.

I passed on bidding on this item but was surprised to see it only sold for $102 (Nr/Mt set). I have always greatly appreciated everything I have learned (and continue learning) about this set from Ted Z., but at the end of his dissertations it always makes my head hurt. Plus, there is always the possibility that it is in fact a reprinted set. Guess, others feel the same way.

Lovely Day...
I am with you on the head hurting and I just got into this a week ago. My cards truly were found in an old scrapbook I have from around Cleveland Indian World Series time (1948). All my neighborhood was collecting these cards, so I know they are original and not reprinted. My dilemma is why are the same pictures in the first set of 48 in my set of 24. Also, my picture of Vern Stephens is in a St Louis Browns uniform of 1947, and in 48 and later he played for Red Sox. In my eye, when I look at the back of my pics, they look white, considering the age.

Exhibitman

07-24-2016, 07:54 AM

The fact that Stephens appears in a 1947 uniform in a later card is not an anachronism. If he'd been in a Red Sox uni it would disprove an issue date from before the trade.

GasHouseGang

07-24-2016, 03:52 PM

As they say, "A picture is worth a thousand words". Since DiMaggio isn't supposed to be available with square corners, maybe you could take a pic of just that card.

doolittle1.1.1

07-24-2016, 07:22 PM

As they say, "A picture is worth a thousand words". Since DiMaggio isn't supposed to be available with square corners, maybe you could take a pic of just that card.
I posted the Di Maggio and just think, there are 11 more square corners...... this is too much fun,,,, I think that they think, that I am full of it.......The only thing that ruins this whole thing is the 10 year old that scotch taped the corners in the scrapbook... I am still hopeful my In Law can save these corners....

GasHouseGang

07-24-2016, 07:55 PM

I'm sorry, I just now realized that the cards with the tape marks previously posted were yours. Well, maybe the expert on these, who also collected them when they came out, will have an answer.

tedzan

07-26-2016, 03:27 PM

I don't believe this list is correct....Walker Cooper should be on this list.

TED Z

Ted, your own list in post #7 doesn't include Walker Cooper.

My list in Post #7 applies ONLY to the 1947 BOND BREAD cards (Rounded corners) set.

If you go back and read the posts in this thread, you will realize that the Square-cornered set is NOT exactly the same issue.

Sorry, I did not respond to you on this earlier, but I was in Cooperstown these past 6 days.

TED Z
.

GasHouseGang

07-27-2016, 08:49 AM

OK, I think I'm a bit lost again. The list I posted was from the SCD article and was supposed to be the Bond Bread 1947 set, and the cards with an * were in the later find of 24 cards square cornered, which may or may not be reprints. I think the unknown for me, is what cards are in the 1949 square cornered set. Is there a checklist for these? Based on the picture of the boxes there should be 48 "Sports Stars" which may include two boxers. Where the movie stars fit into this hasn't been explained.

doolittle1.1.1

07-27-2016, 09:10 AM

OK, I think I'm a bit lost again. The list I posted was from the SCD article and was supposed to be the Bond Bread 1947 set, and the cards with an * were in the later find of 24 cards square cornered, which may or may not be reprints. I think the unknown for me, is what cards are in the 1949 square cornered set. Is there a checklist for these? Based on the picture of the boxes there should be 48 "Sports Stars" which may include two boxers. Where the movie stars fit into this hasn't been explained.
You are right on the money about being lost I AM LOSTER THAN YOU. Nobody will believe that my set is from 48-49 when another set was made in the 1980's. The only one authentic is me, so far, because I have had them since the 40.s... Is this fun or what

GasHouseGang

08-02-2016, 03:32 PM

OK, I think I'm a bit lost again. The list I posted was from the SCD article and was supposed to be the Bond Bread 1947 set, and the cards with an * were in the later find of 24 cards square cornered, which may or may not be reprints. I think the unknown for me, is what cards are in the 1949 square cornered set. Is there a checklist for these? Based on the picture of the boxes there should be 48 "Sports Stars" which may include two boxers. Where the movie stars fit into this hasn't been explained.

I found this picture I had saved away from the non-sport website. If these were the box for the W673 "Navy Ships", maybe the same company is responsible for the 1949 square cornered "Sports Stars" set, and the "Movie Stars". The box certainly looks the same, or at least similar.

doolittle1.1.1

08-02-2016, 03:47 PM

Hey "Bubba"

Can we see a scan of the back of this Blackwell card.

TED Z
.
My pic is the same as this one with same description of the back being flimsy,.. The fact remains , I have had these cards with square corners since the late 1940's Doug doc

doolittle1.1.1

08-02-2016, 03:53 PM

Hey "Bubba"

Can we see a scan of the back of this Blackwell card.

TED Z
.
What a great find. Who is the smiley face Rex Barney???? Are these for sale?

GasHouseGang

08-02-2016, 04:06 PM

I found this picture I had saved away from the non-sport website. If these were the box for the W673 "Navy Ships", maybe the same company is responsible for the 1949 square cornered "Sports Stars" set, and the "Movie Stars". The box certainly looks the same, or at least similar.

While the box looks like the "Sports Stars", the cards don't look much like the others, so I doubt they are connected. Here are some images of the "Navy Ships and Planes", which is the actual title of the 36 card set.

Harford20

08-03-2016, 08:10 AM

Doug,
The "smiley face" is Gil Hodges.

doolittle1.1.1

08-03-2016, 08:27 AM

Thank you, douglas

danmckee

08-21-2016, 09:22 AM

I have 25 square corner baseball players and 1 boxer that have the same exact white paper backing and not the cream color. These are originals for sure, cards are identical to my clipped corner ones. Dan

vintagetoppsguy

09-01-2016, 10:24 AM

Thank you, Lee, for reviving this thread back in June (Post #70). I am assuming the question was regarding the Musial in your June auction. I won the card and I’ve read through this thread (and found a lot of useful information), but still have some questions if anybody can help.

I am assuming this card was part of the Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects 4 box set that was made by Aarco Playing Cards (Chicago). How do we know for sure the cards were made in ‘48/’49? Why couldn’t they have been made at the same time as the Bond Bread (’47)?

There is one eBay seller that seems to think so…

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-W571-Aarco-Sport-Star-Subjects-Stan-Musial-Rookie-ORIGINAL-2-25-X-3-25-/152077376970?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.M BE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131230161411%26meid%3Dbfc492 c040ec4ee193b05b7d5a2906c4%26pid%3D100012%26rk%3D9 %26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D181978452411&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=fh0Jfv4rPRFGDBDS%252BDIPXTBMVuc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I have a few interesting observations between the one on eBay and the one I purchased from Lee. (1) The card on eBay is cropped a little closer than mine. Look at the left and right borders and you can see more of the image on mine. (2) The name on his is more towards the bottom. The name on mins is a little higher up. (3) The back of his card appears to be more white (could be the scan though) and I thought I read that the white backs were considered reprints?? Is his a reprint? It sure looks like it shows its age (nearly 70 years old).

Is it possible there were multiple print runs and the formatting changed? If ours are both Sports Star Subjects, why the differences?

The one I purchased from Lee
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43384/my-musial-front

The one on eBay
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43379/musial-ebay-front

The back of mine
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43385/my-musial-back

The back of the one on eBay
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43380/musial-ebay-back

Here is a Bond Bread just to compare to. Note that even the Bond Bread is cropped more closely than mine.
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43383/bond-bread-musial

tedzan

09-02-2016, 09:07 AM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-W571-Aarco-Sport-Star-Subjects-Stan-Musial-Rookie-ORIGINAL-2-25-X-3-25-/152077376970?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.M BE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131230161411%26meid%3Dbfc492 c040ec4ee193b05b7d5a2906c4%26pid%3D100012%26rk%3D9 %26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D181978452411&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=fh0Jfv4rPRFGDBDS%252BDIPXTBMVuc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Is it possible there were multiple print runs and the formatting changed? If ours are both Sports Star Subjects, why the differences?

The one I purchased from Lee
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43384/my-musial-front

The one on eBay
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43379/musial-ebay-front

The back of mine
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43385/my-musial-back

The back of the one on eBay
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43380/musial-ebay-back

Here is a Bond Bread just to compare to. Note that even the Bond Bread is cropped more closely than mine.
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/vintagetoppsguy/miscellaneous/43383/bond-bread-musial

David

The Musial card on ebay is an original (circa 1949) issue. Its white back confirms this.

Your Musial card is a reprint (circa ? ? ). Its toned back indicates that this card is not an original Sports Star Subject issued in 1949.

Furthermore, the image on the reprint lacks the contrast of the 1949 issue. And, if you compare the thickness of the cardboard of these two cards,
the 1949 card will feel thicker than the reprint card.

TED Z
.

vintagetoppsguy

09-02-2016, 09:19 AM

Ted, thanks! But if mine is a reprint, it has to be a reprint from the original plate, right? Because mine shows more of the image than the one on eBay (and even the Bond Bread for that matter).

Sterling Sports Auctions

09-02-2016, 09:26 AM

Hi Again,

I have another group of these from another consignor, the backs are very white. From my understanding you believe the white backs to be a reprint. Is there a possibility that another company could have issued these? similar to T206s, T205s, M101-4?

Lee

EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

09-02-2016, 09:38 AM

Could these be Bond Bread Related???

https://sportscardalbum.com/c/1i6n393j.jpg (https://sportscardalbum.com/card/1i6n393j/n-a)

vintagetoppsguy

09-02-2016, 09:59 AM

Hi Again,

I have another group of these from another consignor, the backs are very white. From my understanding you believe the white backs to be a reprint. Is there a possibility that another company could have issued these? similar to T206s, T205s, M101-4?

Lee

From Ted's answer above, he says that the Sport Star Subjects have a white back, so it sounds like the ones you have are probably Sport Star Subjects and mine is something else. I'm just wondering where mine originated from? Since mine shows more of the actual image than the Sport Star or the Bond Bread, mine had to have been made from the original plate, right? Mine also shares a characteristic as some of the Bond Bread in that it isn't cut correctly. On mine, you can see some of the next card on the sheet on right and bottom border. Many of the Bond Bread are this way too. Even though mine isn't a Sport Star, I'm convinced that it was made during the same time, possible by another company as Lee suggests.

tedzan

09-02-2016, 11:12 AM

Hey guys,

As I've said in my 1st post in this thread, I collected the original Bond Bread cards in the Summer of 1947. Here are some of my original cards......

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1947bb6rookiestars.jpg

I have an excellent memory of these cards (as they were the first BB cards I collected as an 8-year old kid). Plus, I'm fortunate to have
all my original cards from my youth.

These Bond Bread (Rounded corners) cards were available from Bond Bread packages to us kids in my neighborhood in 1947 and 1948.

My research indicates that circa 1949 the Square versions of these B/W cards were available. These Square cards were never available
in our neighborhood. Rounded or Square, these 48-card issues were printed on good quality cardboard which has remained WHITE for
almost 70 years.

Circa 1980, David Festberg (hobby dealer) discovered in a North Jersey warehouse a box (or boxes) containing 1000's of B/W (Square
cornered) cards similar to the above cards. However,

1....there were only 24 (of the 48) subjects in this find.

2....these 24 cards were printed on an inferior cardboard stock, as these cards are thinner than the 1947 and 1949 issues.
And, the backs of the cards are "TONED", instead of WHITE.

Furthermore, when you compare the original cards (1947 & 1949) with the cards from Festberg's find, it's quite obvious that the original
cards have a noticeable B/W contrast. Where the Festberg cards' images are somewhat "faded"....indicative of reprints.

Long-time collectors/dealers have arrived at these same observations as I have stated here.

TED Z
.

Pat R

09-02-2016, 12:43 PM

David,

Your Musial looks very similar to one that belongs to a friend of mine.
243845
243846
His mother purchased them for him through an ad in the NY Times back in
the late 80's or early 90's. There are 24 of them and I believe they
are the ones Ted is referring to that came from the "Festberg" find.

His Musial even has similar looking "Scuff" marks on the front as yours.
243847

vintagetoppsguy

09-02-2016, 01:41 PM

Thanks, Ted and Pat. I have no doubt mine is from Festberg discovery, however I do question as to when they were printed. I also contend that they were printed from the original plate. Notice the image on mine and the one Pat showed. You see more of the picture than you do on the Bond Bread or the Sport Star. See the right border, Musial's left foot? You see more of the white sock than you do on the Bond Bread or the Sport Star. Also notice that the bottom border of mine extends further than both of the others. Usually reprints are cropped tighter than the cards they were printed from. Mine is just the opposite. So, I ask this question. Why couldn't mine (the Festberg discovery) have been printed close to the same time that the Bond Bread and Sport Stars were? Maybe they were printed for some purpose and just never got distributed for whatever reason.

tedzan

09-02-2016, 03:52 PM

David......I don't know if you have gone thru this lengthy thread and read the interesting posts in it.

Anyhow, I'm reprising Post #49 here since it pertains to our current discussion......

Before I begin, let me state that this is an old thread (from early 2009........I can still remember that year as though it was yesterday....).

This is for prosperity and for Ted Z.... The following eBay item just ended:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230415942970

It was for the complete 24 card '47 Bond Bread imposter cards/set (22 baseball + Joe Louis & Primo Carnera) which were unearthed by Dave Festberg. The seller stated he purchased the set in 1990 from B&J as noted in the SCD article. The card backs were the beige variety not the white version.

I passed on bidding on this item but was surprised to see it only sold for $102 (Nr/Mt set). I have always greatly appreciated everything I have learned (and continue learning) about this set from Ted Z., but at the end of his dissertations it always makes my head hurt. Plus, there is always the possibility that it is in fact a reprinted set. Guess, others feel the same way.

Lovely Day...

Furthermore, your question as to when these cards (that I have referred to as the "reprinted 24") were printed. I'll respond with these three points.............

1.....If (as you say) these reprints' images appear to be larger than the original 1947 & 1949 cards' images, frankly, I don't see more than a 1/64 of an inch
increase, if at all.

2.....And, any negligible increase could be explained by the fact that these same images were most likely reprinted from the (late 1940's) Exhibit size cards
of this series.
So, perhaps the "reprinted 24" cards (Festberg find) were printed from the Exhibits.

3.....I got back into this hobby in the 1970's. And during the 1970's, I was searching for 1947 Bond Bread cards to upgrade my original set of the 44 BB and
the 4 Boxers.
I never saw any of these "reprinted 24" cards until Festberg revealed his find in the early 1980's.

Therefore, my guess is that these reprints were printed in circa 1980-1981.

TED Z
.

mfil5

09-12-2016, 12:33 AM

Hello everyone, my uncle bought a set of these circa 1988 and we've been wondering for quite some time if these were the actual '47 card set. Alas we now realize that these are most likely not. My question is, are they worth anything and if so, what? Also did anyone else buy from the same people? I've attatched pics of the letter that came with the cards and of the cards themselves. Any info would be much appreciated.

mfil5

09-12-2016, 12:38 AM

EDIT: it seems I can only post pictures one at a time.

tedzan

09-12-2016, 01:09 PM

Hello everyone, my uncle bought a set of these circa 1988 and we've been wondering for quite some time if these were the actual '47 card set. Alas we now realize that these are most likely not. My question is, are they worth anything and if so, what? Also did anyone else buy from the same people? I've attatched pics of the letter that came with the cards and of the cards themselves. Any info would be much appreciated.

mfil5

Your cards on display in Posts #141, 142 & 143 exactly coincide with my list of the 24 cards in the 1980's find by David Festberg.
Furthermore the backs of these cards appear to be "toned" (instead of bright white). Therefore, I would conclude that these cards
are not from the original 1949 issued set.

What are they worth ? If they get graded and the flip identifies them wrongly as "1947 Bond Bread"......it's anyone's guess ? ?

Here is the list of the 24 cards in the Festberg find......

Ewell Blackwell
Lou Boudreau
Harry Brecheen
Primo Carnera
Bobby Doerr
Bob Elliott
Del Ennis
Bob Feller
Joe Gordon
Tommy Holmes
Ken Keltner
Ralph Kiner
Joe Louis
Johnny Mize
Stan Musial
Andy Pafko
Johnny Pesky
Phil Rizzuto
Jackie Robinson
Aaron Robinson
Johnny Sain
Enos Slaughter
Vern Stephens
Ted Williams

TED Z
.

mfil5

09-12-2016, 03:30 PM

Thanks for the response, after doing some digging I found that the guy that my uncle bought them from, Stanley Apfelbaum, was a "controversial" coin dealer before being barred from that and then moved on to sports memorabilia sometime in the 80s. Did anyone else buy from Mr. Apfelbaum's Rookie Card Club in the late 80s? And if so does anyone know if they were legit? The whole story behind these cards is really interesting and I'm just trying to piece all of this together.

Leon

09-14-2016, 02:20 PM

Those pictures of the cards you posted were consolidated into one post. Not sure why it didn't work for you...

It's too bad but there are thousands of stories we hear which are similar to this. Many of the stories are contrived but there are a lot of folks who have been duped and just don't know it yet (generally speaking).

btw, great info right there Ted re: Festberg stuff!!

Thanks for the response, after doing some digging I found that the guy that my uncle bought them from, Stanley Apfelbaum, was a "controversial" coin dealer before being barred from that and then moved on to sports memorabilia sometime in the 80s. Did anyone else buy from Mr. Apfelbaum's Rookie Card Club in the late 80s? And if so does anyone know if they were legit? The whole story behind these cards is really interesting and I'm just trying to piece all of this together.

tjenkins

09-14-2016, 02:26 PM

Awesome post. Learned a lot!

Gobucsmagic74

04-19-2017, 08:37 PM

Anyone happen to know when the 13 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson cards were issued relative to the original 48 card Bond Bread set with rounded/die cut corners?

vintagerookies51

04-19-2017, 10:54 PM

Anyone happen to know when the 13 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson cards were issued relative to the original 48 card Bond Bread set with rounded/die cut corners?

Take a look at this thread- goes into great detail
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171169

NiceDocter

04-19-2017, 11:16 PM

Have read this thread today with interest. I remember the cards being for sale back in the late 70s in an ad in the Trader Speaks but passed on them as I had a feeling they were NOT originals at the time. Interestingly, I bought about 40 or so 8 x 10 black and white poster-like inserts(?) of the same players and poses at the Saturday Flea market where back in the day you could still make some cool finds.... still have them buried in a box somewhere, I remember Ted Williams, Joe Louis, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Phil Rizzuto, Stan Musial, Bob Feller and a few others.... they were on a soft paper looked to be from the 40s or 50s..... same poses and signatures..... any info on these? Blank backed .... no manufacturer anywhere. They do have borders on them unlike a lot of the cards Ive seen.

Gobucsmagic74

04-20-2017, 12:30 AM

Take a look at this thread- goes into great detail
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171169

Great read...thanks for the link! Still trying to determine which card was released first though, the portrait with facsimile auto promo card (white borders) that is part of the Jackie set or the die cut/rounded corner portrait that was part of the regular issued 48 card set? Has this been established? And if so, which came first?

CharleyBrown

04-20-2017, 06:06 AM

Great read...thanks for the link! Still trying to determine which card was released first though, the portrait with facsimile auto promo card (white borders) that is part of the Jackie set or the die cut/rounded corner portrait that was part of the regular issued 48 card set? Has this been established? And if so, which came first?

The white border auto promo card was first distributed in June 1947 in NYC (and I believe outside of NYC, specifically Baltimore and DC - but I will confirm that in a few weeks once my schedule frees up and I have time to go through my last bit of research material).

While I am not sure an exact release date for either can be pinned down, Ted Z will likely be able to confirm whether or not the die-cut / rounded corners set of 44 was available prior to June 1947.

It should also be noted that, in addition to both the white facs. auto and the die cut set of 44 card, Jackie did have another card come out in 1947 - the Old Gold Kneeling in Dugout card. That card, however, was distributed in September, 1947.

Gobucsmagic74

04-20-2017, 08:36 AM

The white border auto promo card was first distributed in June 1947 in NYC (and I believe outside of NYC, specifically Baltimore and DC - but I will confirm that in a few weeks once my schedule frees up and I have time to go through my last bit of research material).

While I am not sure an exact release date for either can be pinned down, Ted Z will likely be able to confirm whether or not the die-cut / rounded corners set of 44 was available prior to June 1947.

It should also be noted that, in addition to both the white facs. auto and the die cut set of 44 card, Jackie did have another card come out in 1947 - the Old Gold Kneeling in Dugout card. That card, however, was distributed in September, 1947.

Thanks Shaun! I'm anxiously awaiting input from Ted (or anyone for that matter) regarding his knowledge of the release of these two cards. Just trying to establish which was his absolute first card, if that is even possible.

tedzan

04-20-2017, 09:27 AM

Hi Dan

I recall being in school in 1947 when us kids were comparing the BOND BREAD regular issue (48) cards. So, that timeframe could have been in the
Spring of 1947 (or the Fall of 1947).

As I have mentioned, the Jackie Robinson cards were never marketed in my town (Hillside, NJ); therefore, I cannot provide a timeline for this issue.

TED Z
.

CharleyBrown

04-20-2017, 09:37 AM

Dan,

It might be worth exploring some old newspapers / publications from 1947 to determine whether it was the fall or spring of '47.

I do know that many of the '47 BB set of 44 pictures came from team photo packs from 1947, so it might be worth exploring when those were made available by the teams. I would believe that the cards were distributed after the team photo packs were, since the photo pack images appear to be the source of the BB photos.

Gobucsmagic74

04-20-2017, 09:42 AM

Hi Dan

I recall being in school in 1947 when us kids were comparing the BOND BREAD regular issue (48) cards. So, that timeframe could have been in the
Spring of 1947 (or the Fall of 1947).

As I have mentioned, the Jackie Robinson cards were never marketed in my town (Hillside, NJ); therefore, I cannot provide a timeline for this issue.

TED Z
.

I can't believe you cant remember for sure Ted, it was only 70 years ago! :D So unless someone recalls or has evidence that these cards were issued prior to June, it sounds like maybe the only way to confirm which came first would be to determine the exact date that Jackie signed on with Bond Bread. If it was early in the year it would at least leave the window open for the regular issued set of 48 cards being released in Spring of 1947 (which might make sense with spring training and a new season approaching), whereas, if he signed on closer to mid-year it would exclude the possibility of the release of the 48 card set in the Spring of '47 (unless they were issued at different times throughout the season), and lend support to the white-bordered Bond Bread Promo card being the first issued card (in June).

Gobucsmagic74

04-20-2017, 09:44 AM

Dan,

It might be worth exploring some old newspapers / publications from 1947 to determine whether it was the fall or spring of '47.

I do know that many of the '47 BB set of 44 pictures came from team photo packs from 1947, so it might be worth exploring when those were made available by the teams. I would believe that the cards were distributed after the team photo packs were, since the photo pack images appear to be the source of the BB photos.

Good idea! I will look into that and update you if I discover anything worthwhile.

tedzan

04-20-2017, 10:09 AM

Hey guys,

I have the 1947 NEW YORK YANKEES team photo pack; and when I get home I'll check it out. My point here is that Joe Gordon
is pictured in a Yankees uniform in the 48 card set.
However, he was traded for Allie Reynolds to the Indians in Oct 1946.

Therefore, this may imply that this set was issued early in 1947.

NEW YORK YANKEES
--------------------
JOE DiMAGGIO
LARRY BERRA
JOE GORDON
CHARLIE KELLER
JOHNNY LINDELL
PHIL RIZZUTO
AARON ROBINSON

TED Z
.

Harford20

04-20-2017, 10:49 AM

Along the lines of Ted's thinking, I have always looked at George Birdie Tebbetts as the "swing factor". He appears in his catcher gear, but I believe is wearing his Detroit uniform underneath (as the cursive D sticks out). Birdie was traded by the Detroit Tigers to the Boston Red Sox for Hal Wagner on May 20, 1947. This adds some credence to the "early 1947" release of the 48-card set.

Dave

Exhibitman

04-20-2017, 12:58 PM

Have read this thread today with interest. I remember the cards being for sale back in the late 70s in an ad in the Trader Speaks but passed on them as I had a feeling they were NOT originals at the time. Interestingly, I bought about 40 or so 8 x 10 black and white poster-like inserts(?) of the same players and poses at the Saturday Flea market where back in the day you could still make some cool finds.... still have them buried in a box somewhere, I remember Ted Williams, Joe Louis, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Phil Rizzuto, Stan Musial, Bob Feller and a few others.... they were on a soft paper looked to be from the 40s or 50s..... same poses and signatures..... any info on these? Blank backed .... no manufacturer anywhere. They do have borders on them unlike a lot of the cards Ive seen.

They are from a 1940s multisport pack. Here are a few:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/boxingpremiums/websize/Picture%20Pack%20Carnera.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/boxingpremiums/websize/Picture%20Pack%20Cerdan.jpg

This Graziano is not one of the bread cards but he was a major personality in the late 1940s:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/boxingpremiums/websize/Picture%20Pack%20Graziano.jpg

I've also had FB players Johnny Lujack and Doc Blanchard, and Bob Feller.

NiceDocter

04-20-2017, 11:51 PM

YES thank you ExhibitMan those are the ones! Now that you mention, I seem to remember a few football as well.... maybe Glenn Davis? I will post a list of what I have when I dig em out! Thanks again for posting.

botn

05-05-2017, 10:12 PM

Hi Ted,

Not sure if this is the thread http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/thread/1350453657/last-1351291718/A.+J.+Wildman+Navy+Ships+set where you got that picture of the "Navy Ships"box. The post by Troy Kirk shows a box that contains movie star cards with the clipped/rounded corners.

You suggested in this thread the corners were clipped/rounded on the baseball issue for inserting with the bread so would you conclude that these movie stars cards may have been distributed the same way and would that make these a 1947 issue as well?

Thanks,
Greg

tedzan

05-06-2017, 12:39 PM

Hi Ted,

........ The post by Troy Kirk shows a box that contains movie star cards with the clipped/rounded corners.

You suggested in this thread the corners were clipped/rounded on the baseball issue for inserting with the bread so would you conclude that these movie stars cards may have been distributed the same way and would that make these a 1947 issue as well?

Thanks,
Greg

Hi Greg

I don't recall saying the cards of the Movie Stars issue had "rounded corners". The 12-card box (with Lucille Ball) shown that you are alluding to contains square-cornered cards.
The window of this box has beveled corners (not the cards in it). Here are some of my Movie Stars cards. My research indicates that these cards were issued circa 1949-1950.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1949moviestars10.jpg

TED Z
.

botn

05-06-2017, 01:52 PM

Hi Ted,
That is my point. The link I included in my post to you contained a post by Troy who has these movie star cards in box and the cards have rounded/clipped corners. The movie star cards you showed do not.

Here is a picture of a friend's boxed sets. These cards all have clipped/rounded corners. In fact he listed the singles on ebay. Here is a link to one of the cards that came out of those boxes. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Judy-Garland-1950s-Screen-Star-Subjects-Film-Star-Card-nrmnt-/332183622826?hash=item4d57afd4aa:g:S~4AAOSwdI9Y8Tw g
Thanks,
Greg

tedzan

05-06-2017, 04:20 PM

Greg

I have to tell you this....I'm somewhat suspicious of these Movie Stars cards. Here is the seller's comments..........

" I will be breaking down a full 48 card high grade set ..this set is hard to find in any condition let alone in such exceptional shape.

This is the only set i've ever had of these cards and i've only seen a few singles pop up here and there.

At the end of the card listings i'll be listing the original 4 colored boxes in separate auctions...don't miss out on those ever rarer boxes.

These cards were issued in the late 1940s or early 1950s by A.J. Wildman & Son Titled "Screen Star Subjects"

card measures; 21/4 x 3 7/16 " with blank backs...the backs are clean unless specified.

These cards are seem very similar to the Bond Bread cards made of sports cards which were made in 1947 and fetch a pretty penny.

Please examine scans and ask questions...i will point out any flaws not seen on the scan.

After some discussion in the hobby it appears these may in fact be Bond Bread cards.

They are the same size,card stock,shape as the Baseball cards issued in 1947 which also were issued in 12 card boxes. "

I don't know of anyone who pulled Movie Star cards out of Bond Bread loaf packages in 1947. Furthermore, the beveled corners of his
Movie Stars are unlike those of the original 1947 BB cards (whose corners were factory die cut). And, it absolutely does NOT make any
sense (if these cards were marketed in the 12-card packs) for them to have beveled corners.

Something does not jive here. Unless they were hand trimmed to resemble the 1947 issue, so he (or someone) could jack-up their price.

Incidentally, the 48 square cornered BB cards (circa 1949) were marketed by "Sports Star Subjects" in those four 12-card packs.

TED Z
.

botn

05-06-2017, 06:11 PM

Greg

I have to tell you this....I'm somewhat suspicious of these Movie Stars cards. Here is the seller's comments..........

" I will be breaking down a full 48 card high grade set ..this set is hard to find in any condition let alone in such exceptional shape.

This is the only set i've ever had of these cards and i've only seen a few singles pop up here and there.

At the end of the card listings i'll be listing the original 4 colored boxes in separate auctions...don't miss out on those ever rarer boxes.

These cards were issued in the late 1940s or early 1950s by A.J. Wildman & Son Titled "Screen Star Subjects"

card measures; 21/4 x 3 7/16 " with blank backs...the backs are clean unless specified.

These cards are seem very similar to the Bond Bread cards made of sports cards which were made in 1947 and fetch a pretty penny.

Please examine scans and ask questions...i will point out any flaws not seen on the scan.

After some discussion in the hobby it appears these may in fact be Bond Bread cards.

They are the same size,card stock,shape as the Baseball cards issued in 1947 which also were issued in 12 card boxes. "

I don't know of anyone who pulled Movie Star cards out of Bond Bread loaf packages in 1947. Furthermore, the beveled corners of his
Movie Stars are unlike those of the original 1947 BB cards (whose corners were factory die cut). And, it absolutely does NOT make any
sense (if these cards were marketed in the 12-card packs) for them to have beveled corners.

Something does not jive here. Unless they were hand trimmed to resemble the 1947 issue, so he (or someone) could jack-up their price.

Incidentally, the 48 square cornered BB cards (circa 1949) were marketed by "Sports Star Subjects" in those four 12-card packs.

TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

I bought a partial set of the movie star cards with the rounded corners. They are factory cuts. There are 3 non sports guys who have cards or sets with the rounded corners and in all cases those cards did come from those boxes. I will have to compare the cuts on the movie stars to the baseball cards as I have both. They appeared exactly the same to me when I first looked at them that I never gave the corners another look.

Thanks,
Greg

JamesGallo

05-08-2017, 11:53 AM

Ok so I had asked about these cards a while back mine are exhibit sized but have a cardstock cardboard backing. Not white or beige and pretty thick with what I would call a semi gloss.

http://www.thetoyheaven.com/images/items/baseballcards/exhibits.jpg

http://www.thetoyheaven.com/images/items/baseballcards/bondbread.jpg

This is a list of the cards I have.

Here are the 17 common cards
(3)* Ewell Blackwell
(4)* Lou Boudreau
(6)* Harry Brecheen
(9)* Bobbie Doerr (Bobby)
(11)* Bob Elliott
(12)* Del Ennis
(13)* Bob Feller
(16)* Joe Gordon
(19)* Tommy Holmes
(24)* Ken Keltner
(26)* Ralph Kiner
(30)* Johnny Mize
(33)* Johnny Pesky
(36)* Aaron Robinson
(38)* John Sain
(39)* Enos Slaughter
(40)* Vern Stephens

Then 7 more uncommon cards
(20) Larry Janson (Jansen)
(21) Sheldon Jones
(22) Edwin Joost
(27) John Lindell
(28) Whitey Lockman
(41) George Tebbetts
(43) Johnny Van Der Meer (VanderMeer)

I also have the Walker Cooper that isn't listed on old cardboard.

James G

Exhibitman

05-08-2017, 12:44 PM

You've got a ways to go for the set.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1947%20Bond%20Bread%20Exhibit%20Williams.jpg

(I never get tired of that one...)

No one knows much about the issue, despite all the sharp card researchers here. Best guess is it was the same art licensed to someone other than the bread folks. Like the perforated cards from Elgee

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1947%20Bond%20Bread%20Perforated%20Robinson-Cagney.jpg

(never get tired of that one either)

Jack Webster

11-02-2017, 12:08 PM

Images don't show anymore, unless you pay Photobucket $399.00

tedzan

11-02-2017, 01:22 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIt was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams, a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. In the Fall of 1947, we experienced one of the most exciting World Series ever played. 1947 was a tremendous year for BB, and a great start for me in the wonderful life-long hobby of col- lecting BB cards. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set. 1947 Homogenized BOND BREAD wrapper <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/bondbreadwrapper.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Many cards in this set are the very 1st (or rookie) cards issued of the players. Shown here are the 1st cards of Yogi Berra, Stan Musial, Jackie Pobinson, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner and Bobby Thomson. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1947bb6rookiestars.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> This set has been the source of much confusion in the hobby for many years. The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages. Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "imposters". Shown here are two cards from the 1949 (unknown) issue which includes 24 of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were included. These cards may have been printed by the same firm that printed the 1947 set. However, their SQUARE corners and their inferior cardboard stock belie the fact that these cards are NOT related to the "1947 Bond Bread" issue. A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this col- lection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49). 1949 (unknown) issue <img src="http:///albums/tt113/zanted86/1949cardsrizzutostewart.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> A 1947 Bond Bread Team/checklist will follow in the next post here. TED Z 

Like magic, my 1st post images have re-appeared. I'm in the process of gradually transferring my images to another system.

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Jack Webster

11-02-2017, 08:43 PM

Ted-Are all the Jackie Robinson cards round cornered? I've only seen one card (portrait) with round corners, all the rest have square.

HasselhoffsCheeseburger

11-03-2017, 09:21 AM

I've got a nice SGC 80 Berra to share but I guess I'm missing a security token so I can't upload the image. But it looks great. I'm doing an interpretative dance right now to describe it so you can all picture it in your heads.

tedzan

11-03-2017, 09:50 AM

Ted-Are all the Jackie Robinson cards round cornered? I've only seen one card (portrait) with round corners, all the rest have square.

Jack

The 1947 BOND BREAD Jackie Robinson series (13-cards) were not issued in Bond Bread packages; and therefore, they are all Square-cornered.

These cards were my very first BB cards which I collected as a very young kid in 1947......pulled out of BOND BREAD packages.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1947bb6rookiestars.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

11-03-2017, 09:56 AM

Question... I have the rounded corner Jackie that is mint but came back a SGC A due to it be 1/64th of a inch too small. Does that even make sense?

tedzan

11-07-2017, 06:17 PM

Question... I have the rounded corner Jackie that is mint but came back a SGC A due to it be 1/64th of a inch too small. Does that even make sense?

Stephen

I just shuffled thru my 1947 BOND BREAD set (48 cards)....and, the variation in size between some of these cards is as much as 1/16th of an inch.

My advice to you is to wait a couple of months, then crack the card out of its holder and re-submit it to SGC (or PSA). There's a high likelihood that
you'll get it back with a numerical grade.

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

dclarkraiders

11-07-2017, 06:38 PM

Hodges and Furillo

HasselhoffsCheeseburger

11-13-2017, 08:42 AM

https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.websitetoolbox.com/1237/3565496

tim

01-24-2018, 10:58 AM

Scottsdale Cards has a boxed set of Screen Star Subjects for sale, suggesting that the rounded-corner cards were available in these boxes.
--Tim

Gobucsmagic74

01-24-2018, 11:19 AM

That's discouraging. The rounded corners was the only way I knew of to differentiate the Bond Breads from the Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects

Exhibitman

07-19-2019, 12:59 PM

Last night's Heritage had this card:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/saleholding/websize/Jackie%205.jpg

The starting bid was $1500, which I thought was strong and I figured maybe it hits $3K with vig. It sold for $8,700. The total pop on these cards is two in any grade and it is definitely a rare card, but I'm still shocked at how expensive it was.

Ct94122

07-21-2019, 09:05 AM

Just got these back from SGC and thought I would post. I appreciate the information provided about this set going back 10 years or more on this thread. I also have a bunch of the Hollywood versions of cards ( Jimmy Stewart, Alan Ladd, etc). They have rounded corners but I cannot find as much information on the star cards as the baseball. I appreciate the net54 community and the wealth of knowledge in this forum community.

Ct94122

07-21-2019, 09:28 AM

Trying to figure out photos.

eremin2000

07-21-2019, 11:05 AM

Trying to figure out photos.

Through the miracle of modern technology and communication, here are CT's photos! :D

tedzan

11-18-2019, 01:10 PM

Daryl

The two Jackie Robinson cards in your picture should not have been graded "A" by SGC. These mis-graded JRobby cards
tell us that SGC is not really educated enough regarding these cards to grade them properly.

In 1947, I pulled a number of these 1947 rounded corner cards from BOND BREAD packages which had "square" corners
simply because the factory did not provide sufficient pressure on the die-cut machinery to shape that corner. The proof of
this is the die-cut impression on that card's "square" corner.

There are at least 4 (if not more) such mis-cut cards in my complete set of 48 cards.

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

topcat61

11-19-2019, 10:14 AM

Tip Top and Bond Bread were issued by the same company -Ward Baking, whose parent company was General Baking when these 2 sets were issued in 1947.

Tip Top only issued cards for the cities that had teams -for example, Tip Top contained only cards of the Braves and Red Sox while New York were only issued Yankees, Giants and Dodgers, so collectors would see any other team.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Bond Bread cards were issued in states and cities that had no teams. Just a wild guess.

tedzan

11-19-2019, 11:23 AM

Tip Top and Bond Bread were issued by the same company -Ward Baking, whose parent company was General Baking when these 2 sets were issued in 1947.

Tip Top only issued cards for the cities that had teams -for example, Tip Top contained only cards of the Braves and Red Sox while New York were only issued Yankees, Giants and Dodgers, so collectors would see any other team.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Bond Bread cards were issued in states and cities that had no teams. Just a wild guess.

Ryan

Both 1947 BOND BREAD and TIP TOP cards were issued in states and cities which had Major League teams playing BB.

I don't understand this last statement of yours. It does not make any sense.

I collected these BOND BREAD cards as a very young kid in the Summer/Fall of 1947. We lived in NJ (less than a 1/2 hour away from NYC).
My cousins who lived in NYC collected these same cards.

The TIP TOP Set consists of 163 subjects which represent 11 teams in the Major Leagues.

The BOND BREAD set consists of 44 ballplayers....here is a team checklist:

NEW YORK GIANTS
-------------------
JOHNNY MIZE
SID GORDON
LARRY JANSEN
SHELDON JONES
BUDDY KERR
WHITEY LOCKMAN
WILLARD MARSHALL
BOBBY THOMSON

BROOKLYN DODGERS
--------------------
JACKIE ROBINSON
REX BARNEY
RALPH BRANCA
BRUCE EDWARDS
CARL FURILLO
JOE HATTEN
GIL HODGES
PEE WEE REESE

NEW YORK YANKEES
--------------------
JOE DiMAGGIO
LARRY BERRA
JOE GORDON
CHARLIE KELLER
JOHNNY LINDELL
PHIL RIZZUTO
AARON ROBINSON

BOSTON RED SOX
------------------
TED WILLIAMS
DOM DIMAGGIO
BOBBY DOERR
JOHNNY PESKY

CLEVELAND INDIANS
---------------------
BOB FELLER
LOU BOUDREAU
KEN KELTNER
BIRDIE TEBBETTS

ST LOUIS CARDINALS
----------------------
STAN MUSIAL
HARRY BRECHEEN
ENOS SLAUGHTER

BOSTON BRAVES
-----------------
JOHNNY SAIN
BOB ELLIOTT
TOMMY HOLMES

CINCINNATI REDS
-------------------
EWELL BLACKWELL
JOHNNY VANDERMEER

CHICAGO CUBS
-------------
ANDY PAFKO

PHILADELPHIA ATHLETICS
--------------------------
EDDIE JOOST

PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES
-------------------------
DEL ENNIS

PITTSBURGH PIRATES
----------------------
RALPH KINER

ST LOUIS BROWNS
-------------------
VERN STEPHENS

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

topcat61

11-19-2019, 11:35 AM

Well, I did say I'd go out on a limb :)

tedzan

04-08-2020, 08:49 PM

Mistaken post.

Aquarian Sports Cards

04-09-2020, 05:23 AM

My favorite Bond Bread Card Does this enlighten or confuse?

https://birminghamauctioneersbid.com/images_items/item_3591_1_10141.jpg

https://birminghamauctioneersbid.com/images_items/item_3591_2_10142.jpg

tedzan

04-09-2020, 06:26 AM

Hi Scott

Nothing unusual....check-out my Joe DiMaggio card here....same effect. The factory simply did not punch thru with their die-cut machine on those two corners.

A close look at your "square" corners shows an imprint of the die-cut. Same is true for my DiMaggio card.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1947stadpixbbcards.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Aquarian Sports Cards

04-09-2020, 06:44 AM

I noticed the impression from the missed cut, just thought I'd have some fun. I used to work in an ad agency that had it's own in-house print shop so I've seen some weird stuff and agree completely with your assessment. I also find it interesting how the curves aren't consistent. from shorter curves closer to the corner to curves that are slightly squared off, a lot of interesting things going on. Also I've never seen missed corner cuts on the same side, always seems to be opposite corners.

Hope you and yours are well and safe. See you...

...eventually!

abctoo

05-04-2020, 12:51 PM

I'm new to net54baseball, but have carefully read all of the posts in this thread (which has been ongoing since 2008). Unfortunately, several posted scans have been lost over time from the problems with image hosting websites.

One picture of importance to me may have been in Post #4 (from 2008), a picture of the Warren Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set. Whatever the scan was in Post #4 no longer appears and the weblink that shows up in its place doesn't work. If the scan was the Warren Cooper card, could you post it again? If it wasn't the Cooper card, would someone kindly post a scan of the Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set?

Second, which player that appeared in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set was replaced in the "Sports Star Subjects" set by the Warren Cooper card?

Thanks for your help. Mike

abctoo

05-04-2020, 11:15 PM

See attached for some movie stars. I thought the back was interesting as I hadn't seen the 46 cards mentioned before like this. The Hess reference looks to be a stamp added after printing.

In Post #47, two scans of combinations of cards including champion golfer "'Babe" Didrikson Zaharias were shown. The second scan included the backs of two cards side-by-side. Together those two backs indicate a set of 46 cards (including sports cards). The back pictured at right has the name "HESS SHOES" stamped at its top. The left pictured back has what appears to be the printed name of a company (the manufacturer perhaps?) and some other words at its lower left. Unfortunately, I cannot read what they say from the scan I am viewing. Does anyone know what is printed there? Thanks, Mike

phikappapsi

05-06-2020, 01:52 PM

what a fun thread to see make its way to the top after all these years - my addition.

tedzan

05-06-2020, 04:02 PM

I'm new to net54baseball, but have carefully read all of the posts in this thread (which has been ongoing since 2008). Unfortunately, several posted scans have been lost over time from the problems with image hosting websites.

One picture of importance to me may have been in Post #4 (from 2008), a picture of the Warren Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set. Whatever the scan was in Post #4 no longer appears and the weblink that shows up in its place doesn't work. If the scan was the Warren Cooper card, could you post it again? If it wasn't the Cooper card, would someone kindly post a scan of the Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set?

Second, which player that appeared in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set was replaced in the "Sports Star Subjects" set by the Warren Cooper card?

Thanks for your help. Mike

Welcome to the club, Mike Fried

I do not have a Walker Cooper card to show you from the Sports Star Subjects set. However, I do have the 1949 NY Giants Team Photo Pack (25 photos),
which were issued at the Polo Grounds. Shown here is Walker Cooper from this Photo Pack set. The exact image is in the Sports Star Subjects card set.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1949NYGiantsPhotoPackCooper.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

abctoo

05-07-2020, 01:45 AM

TED Z: There is no dispute that all of the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread cards existing today still have their original white backs (no matter how dirty the backs may have become) and 4 rounded corners, except for those like the examples posted in this thread where the die cut did not go all the way through.

Let me digress a little. In 1947, the Remar Baking Company put out its Sunbeam Bread set for the Oakland Oaks of my home town. Records show that in 1936, Remar was baking 40,000 loafs of bread per day. Though I cannot find records as to the number of loafs Remar baked post-war, it is not unreasonable to presume that number had significantly increased by 1947.

I do not have information on how many loafs of Homogenized Bond Bread were baked daily, but it is not unreasonable to assume the number was 50,000 to 100,000 or more loafs each day. Assuming 100,000 loafs per day, even if the cards were printed in sheets of 48 (an issue I will address in a subsequent post), that's a need to print 2,000 sheets just to satisfy one day's demand for inserts. Ted has said the cards were distributed from 1947 into 1948. That's a lot of days, and this was done for months. In just one week alone (assuming they did not bake on Sundays), 600,000 cards or more were inserted.

I have begun been doing extensive research not only on the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, but on the "Sports Star Subjects" set, the Festberg remainders, various other sets that have been called "Bond Bread" sets (including the "three-sided perforated" set, the "cowboy" backed set and the larger sized Exhibits), as well as the Team Photo Pack sets sold in the ball parks and others (even the R364 Blue Tints because they were mentioned in this thread).

I will soon post extensive details identifying the company that was the source of the pictures for these sets, which will show the obvious printer. We all know, on the surface, the 1947 Team Photo Packs appear to be the source of the pictures used in many of these sets. They are not. They are only the same pictures coming from the same source. The difference between the Team Photo Packs and the cards of these various sets were printed gives us a clue. [In fact, it was the Babe Zaharias card posted in this thread with "Hess Shoe" rubber stamped backs of cards that led me to hours of research and the identification.] A close look with a magnifying glass at the same cards of the same player (or boxer) from one set to another shows the cards of that player all have the same screen dot pattern. [On the Exhibits, the dot pattern is just in a larger size.]

As to the special Jackie Robinson set, another thread on net54 baseball has provided convincing evidence that Bond Bread distributed the first card of that set in 1947, including by going into black neighborhoods and giving that card away along with two slides of Bond Bread to promote the product. The rest of the special Jackie Robinson set was distributed one card at a time from 1947 through 1949. Hopefully, that discovery has changed people's perspectives on what are Robinson's rookie cards. It is a tough pill to swallow when a card you think is a rookie card no longer is. Fortunately, those Jackie Robinson cards still retain their scarcity.

As to the "Sports Star Subjects" set, which is not a 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, both here in net54ball and elsewhere, many have dated the set to 1949 because that was the earliest year any advertisement offering the set has been found.

Ted, the work you have done on T206s is masterful! From what you have described in just your net54ball postings alone to develop the different advertising back sets clearly shows that few, if any, collectors have the knowledge and ability to even come close.

But with all due respect, I have a friendly disagreement with you about whether there is a Walker Cooper card in the "Sports Star Subjects" set. One of the 48 players would have had to be left out so that Cooper could come in. All of my records and research indicate that all 48 original players and boxers appeared in the "Sports Star Subjects" set. I would like to see an actual Walker Cooper card from the set.

As to the Festberg remainder cards, others have claimed they are 1980's reprints made when they were first offered to the public. Below are two scans of my examination under ultra-violet light. This is important because by 1950 paper manufacturers were adding brighteners to the papermaking process because both pictures and text print more clearing on brightened paperstock. Under ultra-violet light, brighteners phosphoresce and/or fluoresce while paperstock without brighteners remains dull. A Festberg card was placed over a strip of brighten paper. Both scans below show the strip of paper reacting to the ultra-violet light while the Festberg remainder card did not. That places the Festberg remainder cards to being made no later than 1950.

I take the story about the finding of the Festberg remainder cards at face value. That story indicates they were unissued cards. They should not be described as cards released to the public. They should always be referred to as remainders. You'll note, I did not say which set they were remainders of. Keep an open mind. My soon to be posted discussion (it may take a few posts) about the photograph sources and printers of these set should help clear that up.

http://i.imgur.com/jUPtoju.jpg?1

http://i.0imgur.com/cTfdjFl.jpg?1

P.S. I add this note in memory of my fellow collector, Ken Yee. I remember going to a show with him decades ago. He took me to a dealer, pulled out a Mark Maguire highly graded PSA rookie card and sold to the dealer for $50, about one-sixth of the going price at the time. I protested: "Why didn't you sell it me? Everybody knows it's a valuable card." He explained that over 500,000 of the same card had already been graded by the various grading companies. He said, they don't care and know exactly what they are doing, making money by getting everybody to believe they provide a valuable service.

And that leads me to TED Z's favorite "Bond Bread" card that gets posted from time to time.

This past week, I looked at the population reports for 1947 cards at PSA's website. For those who do not know, PSA has graded only one card it called a “1947 Bond Bread" card, a PSA 7 Ted Williams. Apparently, there was some controversy, because after grading that one card, PSA now says it no longer grades “1947 Bond Bread” cards. I've never seen the back of that cards, so I can't determine what it is.

There are also Exhibits cards with the identical pictures as the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, but the pictures were printed in the larger Exhibits size. Though these Exhibits are not Bond Bread cards, both PSA, SCG and I believe BGS continue to grade them as “1947 Bond Bread Exhibits." PSA alone as graded some 305 of these "1947 Bond Bread Exhibits." The same player pictures have been found on three-sided perforated cards with pictures of Westerns stars or other subjects printed on the back. Though not Homogenized Bond Bread cards, several grading companies grade these three sized-perforated cards as “1947 Bond Bread Perforated Dual-Sized.” PSA has graded 28 of them.

pcoz

05-07-2020, 07:44 AM

Nice cards guys!

Exhibitman

05-07-2020, 12:55 PM

Looking forward to your posts, Michael.

My understanding is that the miscellaneous formats of cards originated with Aarco and was then licensed.

The "exhibit" cards are not and have never been understood by Exhibit collectors to be Exhibit cards for one overriding reason: they don't fit into the machines for vending. How they were sold is conjectural as far as I know.

The perforated, dual side cards appear to have been made by Elgee Products, likely as a licensee of Aarco, then sold to various retailers to stamp and use as premiums for the kiddies, hence the Hess Shoes stamped cards.

abctoo

05-07-2020, 02:46 PM

Due to an excessive amount of blank lines appearing the text of this post, it has been deleted to save space in this thread. This post has been reposted without all of that blank (white) space in the next thread, Post #198.

abctoo

05-07-2020, 03:24 PM

Sorry there was a systems gliche in my last post of less than an hour ago. Below it is corrected without the long white space and other errors. As to the other members' responses about the sources of the pictures, their manufacturers and the processses involved, you are getting closer. It's detailed and I hope to have a response posted very soon.

Nice cards guys!

A response about "Babe Ruth" and a note about seeing the reactions of ultra-violet (UV) light on the paperstock of a card to determine its vintage.

BE CAREFUL ABOUT USING UV LIGHT! It is part of normal sunlight but our eyes do not see it. Our bodies though sure can feel the sunburn UV light can cause. We can wear UV light shielding sunglasses, but don't stare directly at the sun. UV light can be dangerous.

Today, UV light sources are readily available and around us in many products. For example, lightbulbs generating more intense UV light than in sunlight are bought by many households to periodically sanitize away the bacteria and viruses that can normally accumulate including the bad "bugs" we do not want around. All of those sanitizing UV bulbs come with cautions not to be around the half to an hour or so while the light is on as the UV light can impact our bodies and to be especially careful not to look directly at the bulb when it is shining as that can damage your eyes. Eyes are not built to see UV wavelengths. All we see are the wavelengths normally visible to us that these bulbs simultaneously generate. It is the reaction to the UV light that is important, even though we cannot see the UV light itself.

UV light bulbs that specifically generate only short-wave or long-wave UV light (without the wavelengths of other colors) can be obtained. Post offices use UV light sealed inside some automated mail processing machines to read the chemicals it has had printed on first class stamps (and some others). These chemicals are invisible to us under normal light but will react to UV light by "glowing" in various colors that the machines can read. Newer US stamps react to certain wavelengths of shortwave UV light, while the Canadian and British stamps react to longwave UV light. You have seen a similar effect if you have ever gone into a "dark" room at some exhibition where UV light was shining on rocks or minerals. They sure glow, don't they.

Why does it seem like I have been rambling with all of the above information? Actually, the information is provided to specifically address the authenticity of the Babe Ruth card shown in the previous post.

First, the card is in a card holder. UV light has to directly shine on the thing you want to react to it or you get no reaction. Even a thin T-shirt usually protects covered skin from sunburn. The plastic in PSA's holder would block the UV from reaching the card so there is no possibility of a reaction occurring. Even a simple card sleeve will block out UV light. Anything between the UV light source and the object will block out the UV light and thus remove the possibility of a reaction occurring.

If grading services would now start to shine UV light through their holders as the test for previously graded cards, that would no test at all. The ability of a paper reaction to UV light has been block by the holder. No reaction can occur even if one possibly could on direct contact with UV light. A preliminary UV light test for the age of paper is that newer paper will react to the UV light while vintage paper will not react. Perhaps, grading services will perform the UV light test in the future by shining the light through the holder and see no reaction. Thus they can claim to have "proved" the paperstock of the card in the unopened holder was vintage as there was no reaction to UV light at all. What would be the value of such a claim when no UV light had actually shined on the card? Keeping this Babe Ruth card in it PSA holder provides a tremendous example of the quality of grading company expertise.

I am no expert on Babe Ruth's autograph. If someone wanted my opinion on whether a Babe Ruth autograph was genuine or not, the first thing I would want to do is see if thing the purported autograph was on was something that Babe Ruth could have actually signed. I've been around long enough to know that vintage Babe Ruth cards are high enough in price and demand that they have been modified, reproduced and faked extensively, perhaps during Babe Ruth's time, but certainly thereafter.

A slight digression: In the 1980s, my son and I set up at a small card show at the Scottish Rites Temple in Oakland where Mickey Mantle had come to sign autographs to help raise funds for that financially troubled local chapter. I had a Topps Mantle rookie that was terribly beat up with damaged corners, numerous creases and a number "7" almost 1 inch high strongly impressed by pencil on the front. Back then, no one would have paid $5 for it. Most grading companies would have certainly graded it "A" for authentic, but I would have considered myself very fortunate if it received a grade of "1" (the lowest condition grade). Before the show, my son said he wanted to have Mickey autograph the card as that would give it some value. When we arrived to setup at the show, I told the person in charge what we wanted and paid the $10 fee for the autograph. I ultimately received the autographed card for my son. (How I did is a long story for another time as the show promoter forgot to have Mantle sign it while he was there.) In the past ten years, my son was offered over $750 for the ungraded card and was smart enough to sell it to confirm he was justified in his actions 25 years earlier. Looking at the extremes, is a Babe Ruth card worth 10 cents or 10 million dollars?

Actually shining a UV light on the Babe Ruth card outside its holder in a room with the normal lights off will show whether the card contains "brighteners" or not. No brighteners, no glow - - the initial sign of vintage paperstock. [That still does not prove the autograph authentic.] If a glow, the card was probably printed on paper made more recently than 1950. That analysis of the UV light results works most of the time and at least gives you a starting point. However, if vintage paper has been kept in direct contact with newer paper containing brighteners, in some instances some of those brighteners can transfer to the vintage paper. The biggest problem is when someone tries to clean a card, especially using some form of soap. Many cleaning products contain "brighteners" just as the boxes of Tide, All and other detergents tell you. Experiencing the difference in uniformity and splotchiness of such "glows" will help determine if that has occurred. At least the UV test is a good starting point to see if the paper was available at the time its autographer was alive.

A further digression: I recently sold a lot of graded 8 and 9 cards of rookies from the middle 1980's. The ideas highly promoted by various grading companies back then to get people use their services included: first, grading will make a card more valuable, and second, grading provides proof of authenticity. Back then, most grading services charged between $6 and $20 to grade a card (some also required membership). A look today at PSA's price guide on-line for PSA 8 and PSA 9 rookie cards from the middle 1980's shows most of these graded cards retail at prices lower than the cost of originally having them graded. Ungraded, perhaps a few of those rookies would sell today for a couple of dollars.

I am not suggesting the owner of the pictured graded and authenticated card labeled Babe Ruth take the card out of its holder for a UV light test, but until the grading card services are held to task financially (like by a court judgment) on the promises they made about the value of their services and the value that grading adds to a card, little will change.

Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, Oakland, California, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

JeremyW

05-07-2020, 04:30 PM

He copyrighted it.

rdwyer

05-07-2020, 04:57 PM

Too bad there's no date on it.

tim

05-07-2020, 10:23 PM

Thanks to all for keeping this thread alive! I love these sets too.

From my armchair interweb research, it seems to me that the Bond Bread cards and the Sport Star Subject cards are round-cornered and identical, but I am keeping an open mind.

And just for clarification, the only time the Walker Cooper card gets lumped in with these sets is as part of the oversized "Exhibit" run.

--Tim

tim

05-07-2020, 11:22 PM

From eBay

abctoo

05-10-2020, 05:53 AM

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

Part One - Introduction

Since Ted Zanidakis made the original post in the net54baseball.com thread entitled “1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?” over ten years ago on April 4, 2009, it has highly discussed the 48 card 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread package insert card set and many other cards and team photos with similar or identical pictures, or which are otherwise related. The thread contains pictures of some of these other cards. Many of these sets contain potential first year cards (rookie cards) of the player pictured. After the era these sets were issued, 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread insert cards and most of the related cards and photos have been lost and are no longer common. Since its inception over a decade ago, the thread has had participation from all over the collecting universe. Even those actively engaged in buying and selling cards have asked questions or otherwise participated. Attribution is important because today. All of the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread insert cards have a much higher order of magnitude in volue than the original cost of the loaf of bread each came in. So do the “impostor” sets.

Net54baseball.com has other threads that have addressed the Homogenized Bond Bread set of Jackie Robinson cards. One such thread has provided not only pictures of the known cards in the set, but authentic documentation to conclusive establish that what was once was thought to been a set of all Jackie Robinson rookie cards was actually a set of cards issued one card at a time by Homogenized Bond Bread from 1947 through 1949. The first card was issued during the summer of 1947 with the other cards issued at separate times during those three years. Though the cards from 1948 and 1949 are not Robinson rookie cards, they remain quite rare.

By the late 1980s-early 1990s, hunting for rookie cards had become a national passtime, perhaps in the minds of many supplanting baseball itself. You could buy a pack of cards from most any card set issued in the 1980s, grade any rookie card found inside, and if you received a high enough grade the rookie card could be worth $20, $50, $100 or more. Collectors did not consider that the number of card manufacturers had increased 50 fold from the early 1980s to 1990, with the quantities of actual cards printed increasing many times more. Card manufacturers were loading up their new sets with more and more cards of the most unproven rookies to the exclusion of well established players. People were paying big money for rookie cards. Many were promoting putting such graded rookie cards away as investments for various retirement accounts. It rarely mattered if a new rookie card was printed as a “limited” edition of 100 or was a regular issue printed that had been printed in quantities of up to 500,000 or more. Grading suddenly made it valuable. Buyers failed to recognized that the value of graded rookie cards issued in the 1980s of popular players was not based on the number of cards actually graded, but based on the sentiment they had for the player.

By the 1990s, the tremendous increase in the volume of cards made by the ever increasing pool of card manufacturers, put into the market place more cards than could be sold. Retailers like Walgrens and Kresge's had volumes of boxes of cards left over unsold at the end of baseball seasons. Wholesalers like Costo and Price Club did not sell out. People who wanted to cash out of their valuable 1980s graded rookie cards found too many others trying to do the same thing. Hobby dealers buying direct from the manufacturer found on delivery of their orders that others were already discounting the product by up to 50% of what they had paid (sometimes 6 months in advance) to the manufacturer. The price of graded new rookie cards collapsed. The card market crashed.

In 2000, I asked SCG to grade four cards from the Festberg find. The grading label on the first three cards (Ted Williams, Joe Louis and Stan Musial) identify the cards as “1947 Homogenized Bond” cards. The fourth (Jackie Robinson) was returned to me with an indication the size of the card was too narrow. Scans are provided. The Robinson card was a little narrower than the other 3 cards SCG had graded. In fact, the Robinson card was the narrowest of all cards in that 24 card set. All of the cards in that 24 card set had slight variations in dimensions from each other. Duplicate cards of the same player from the Festberg find also vary slightly in dimensions from each other. Those variation in height and width among the cards of the Festberg find helps explain why the cards are toned and less thick than the normal cards in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread insert set and the “Sports Star Subjects” set. What these differences mean will be discussed in the posts of the next parts of my discussion.

http://i.imgur.com/GFaXe5c.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/GFaXe5c)

http://i.imgur.com/OjvoFbf.jpg

Among the good things that came from the increase in activity in cards in the 1980s is first, many new collectors entered the hobby. While much of that increasing card activity may have been generated by the profit cards could generate, the increased public awareness led to searches for and the findings of many old and forgotten cards across the country. Supply and demand is a better determinant of the scarcity of vintage cards and than sentiment. Sentiment, though, is still an important factor. You can ask most anyone whether they would like to have a 1952 Topps “rookie” card of Mickey Mantle or one of Sal Yvars. Virtually all would say, “Mickey Mantle.” With the follow-up question, “Do you know who Sal Yvars is?,” the response is invariably, “Who's he?” Try asking the average Joe whether he would want a tobacco card of Ruth or Wagner.

Sentiment was an important factor in the issuance of the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts. The parent company of Homogenized Bond Bread and Tip Top Bread capitalized on the sentiment of aficionados of baseball to attract them to select those bread brands over other ones. The ultimate customer only sees the tip of the iceberg. Most have more knowledge about the bread than about what it took in research, planning, development, printing and insertion of the cards into the bread packages. The source of the pictures used on the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread insert cards, the reasons why those pictures are the same as pictures in Team Photo Packs and on cards that did not come as inserts in bread packages, the printing of these items, the dating of these sets and more will appear in my posts of the next parts of this discussion. Thank you for reading.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

tim

05-13-2020, 10:21 PM

Here's a recently completed ebay auction:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-Bond-Bread-Complete-set-of-Beveled-Corners-with-the-4-Original-Packets-/133404358664?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=PAfmYMo8SMl6KcrNnVEnjohCip0%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc
All 48 cards (round-cornered) plus all four Sport Star Subject boxes. These boxes do not show up very often.
--Tim

Gobucsmagic74

05-14-2020, 05:53 AM

I thought the “Homogenized Bread” cards had cropped corners and the “Sport Star Subjects” had square corners? I find this contradictory to previous research and discovery. I believe the offering on eBay are “Bond Bread/Homogenized Bread” cards with Sport Star Subject boxes, from which the accompanying cards never actually came from. That or someone has manually clipped the corners themselves

tim

05-14-2020, 08:14 AM

Every time I have seen the boxes and cards come up at auction together, whether it be the Sport Star Subjects or the movie star Screen Star Subjects, the cards have been round-cornered. However, I have only seen the boxes and cards come up together approximately four times in the past 15 years, so that is not a huge sample size.

One other thing to consider is that these boxes hold 12 cards each. 4 boxes times 12 cards equals 48 cards which is the number of round-cornered cards. It doesn't make sense for the 24 square-bordered cards to have gone into four different boxes -- boxes labeled as Series 1 through 4.
--Tim

Gobucsmagic74

05-14-2020, 08:37 AM

I defer to Ted Zanidakis' opening post and the examples he posted. Take a look at the example he shows as an original "Bond Bread/Homogenized Bread" Jackie Robinson and note the subtle differences in the cropping of the corners and the image between a Bond Bread and a "Sports Star Subject". The first example (with white background) is an exemplar posted by Ted. The second is from the ebay lot. The difference is clear and evident. The Sports Star Subjects Jackie has cropped corners which are much more "square" than the Bond Bread exemplar. Also much more of the "Dodgers" can be seen in the Bond Bread card, even when factoring in the off-set/miscut. These are 100% not the same cards from the same set, regardless of whether a third party grading company mistakenly labels them as such.

tim

05-14-2020, 08:51 AM

The round-cornered cards have huge variation when it comes to the cutting of the corners. Both Jackies look good to me and would not look out of place in an SGC or Beckett slab.
--Tim

Gobucsmagic74

05-14-2020, 08:53 AM

The round-cornered cards have huge variation when it come to the cutting of the corners. Both Jackies look good to me and would not look out of place in an SGC or Beckett slab.
--Tim

I'm not saying they can't be slabbed. I'm saying they're not from the same set. Corners are clearly different as is the image. and how much of "Dodgers" can be seen in the first and not the second. Its not even debatable

tedzan

05-14-2020, 08:55 AM

Hi Dan

What strikes me the most is not the difference in the form of the corner cuts, but the difference in the pictures of the two JRobby cards you have posted.

There is a noticeable difference in the contrast of the pictures. The bottom card is lacking the B/W contrast typical of an original 1947 BOND BREAD card.

Do you know what the back of the bottom JRobby card looks like ?

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Gobucsmagic74

05-14-2020, 09:02 AM

Hi Dan

What strikes me the most is not the difference in the form of the corner cuts, but the difference in the pictures of the two JRobby cards you have posted.

There is a noticeable difference in the contrast of the pictures. The bottom card is lacking the B/W contrast typical of an original 1947 BOND BREAD card.

Do you know what the back of the bottom JRobby card looks like ?

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Hi Ted. Thanks for your help and extensive research on these cards. I agree with you on the contrast also, but I wasn't sure if image quality or lighting might have accounted for that. You can see considerably more of Dodgers in the Bond Bread than the Sports Star Subjects. I think when you factor in the difference in corners, what you actually see in the image, and potentially the contrast...it becomes clear and evident that although similar, they are not from the same set.

I do not know what the back of the Robinson looks like but would be interested in seeing it.

tedzan

05-14-2020, 10:03 AM

Hi Ted. Thanks for your help and extensive research on these cards. I agree with you on the contrast also, but I wasn't sure if image quality or lighting might have accounted for that. You can see considerably more of Dodgers in the Bond Bread than the Sports Star Subjects. I think when you factor in the difference in corners, what you actually see in the image, and potentially the contrast...it becomes clear and evident that although similar, they are not from the same set.

I do not know what the back of the Robinson looks like but would be interested in seeing it.

Hi Dan

I would be very interested in seeing what the backs of both of these Jackie Robinson cards look like ?

As you know, the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24 cards) from
the "Festberg find" have toned backs. If the bottom Robinson in your scan has a toned back (as I suspect)
it has been faked to look like an original 1947 BOND BREAD card by someone who rounded it's corners.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/bondabkcompare.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

GasHouseGang

05-14-2020, 10:33 AM

Ted, here are the pictures from the listing on Ebay. The first photo is the fronts of the card page with Jackie Robinson and the second photo is the backs of the cards on that page.

By the way, he listed these as 1947 Bond Bread cards. The final price realized was $4545. And they listed the 48 cards included as:
(1) Rex Barney
(2) Yogi Berra
(3) Ewell Blackwell
(4) Lou Boudreau
(5) Ralph Branca
(6) Harry Brecheen
(7) Dom DiMaggio
(8) Joe Dimaggio
(9) Bobbie Doerr (Bobby)
(10) Bruce Edwards
(11) Bob Elliott
(12) Del Ennis
(13) Bob Feller
(14) Carl Furillo
(15) Cid Gordon (Sid)
(16) Joe Gordon
(17) Joe Hatten
(18) Gill Hodges
(19) Tommy Holmes
(20) Larry Janson (Jansen)
(21) Sheldon Jones
(22) Edwin Joost
(23) Charlie Keller
(24) Ken Keltner
(25) Buddy Kerr
(26) Ralph Kiner
(27) John Lindell
(28) Whitey Lockman
(29) Willard Marshall
(30) Johnny Mize
(31) Stan Musial
(32) Andy Pafko
(33) Johnny Pesky
(34) Pee Wee Reese
(35) Phil Rizzuto
(36) Aaron Robinson
(37) Jackie Robinson
(38) John Sain
(39) Enow Slaughter
(40) Vern Stephens
(41) George Tebbetts
(42) Bob Thomson
(43) Johnny Van Der Meer (VanderMeer)
(44) Ted Williams
Boxers also Found in Set
(45) Primo Carnera
(46) Marcel Cerdan
(47) Jake LaMotta
(48) Joe Louis

Gobucsmagic74

05-14-2020, 10:45 AM

Ted, here are the pictures from the listing on Ebay. The first photo is the fronts of the card page with Jackie Robinson and the second photo is the backs of the cards on that page.

By the way, he listed these as 1947 Bond Bread cards. The final price realized was $4545. And they listed the 48 cards included as:
(1) Rex Barney
(2) Yogi Berra
(3) Ewell Blackwell
(4) Lou Boudreau
(5) Ralph Branca
(6) Harry Brecheen
(7) Dom DiMaggio
(8) Joe Dimaggio
(9) Bobbie Doerr (Bobby)
(10) Bruce Edwards
(11) Bob Elliott
(12) Del Ennis
(13) Bob Feller
(14) Carl Furillo
(15) Cid Gordon (Sid)
(16) Joe Gordon
(17) Joe Hatten
(18) Gill Hodges
(19) Tommy Holmes
(20) Larry Janson (Jansen)
(21) Sheldon Jones
(22) Edwin Joost
(23) Charlie Keller
(24) Ken Keltner
(25) Buddy Kerr
(26) Ralph Kiner
(27) John Lindell
(28) Whitey Lockman
(29) Willard Marshall
(30) Johnny Mize
(31) Stan Musial
(32) Andy Pafko
(33) Johnny Pesky
(34) Pee Wee Reese
(35) Phil Rizzuto
(36) Aaron Robinson
(37) Jackie Robinson
(38) John Sain
(39) Enow Slaughter
(40) Vern Stephens
(41) George Tebbetts
(42) Bob Thomson
(43) Johnny Van Der Meer (VanderMeer)
(44) Ted Williams
Boxers also Found in Set
(45) Primo Carnera
(46) Marcel Cerdan
(47) Jake LaMotta
(48) Joe Louis

Well, they can't be both Bond Breads and Sports Star Subjects unless there was a surplus of Bond Breads that were re-released as Sports Star Subjects, which could be a possibility I suppose. My issue, and perhaps misunderstanding, was that Sports Star Subjects had square corners (never rounded) and Bond Bread/Homogenized Bread had cropped/rounded corners (never square). I always assumed grading company error if there was confusion in this regard. Interestingly, I've never seen either versions of these cards labeled as "Sports Star Subjects". Both square and round get labeled as Bond/Homogenized Bread, IMO incorrectly when square cornered.

tedzan

05-14-2020, 10:47 AM

Ted, here are the pictures from the listing on Ebay. The first photo is the fronts of the card page with Jackie Robinson and the second photo is the backs of the cards on that page.

By the way, he listed these as 1947 Bond Bread cards. The final price realized was $4545. And they listed the 48 cards included as:
(1) Rex Barney
(2) Yogi Berra
(3) Ewell Blackwell
(4) Lou Boudreau
(5) Ralph Branca
(6) Harry Brecheen
(7) Dom DiMaggio
(8) Joe Dimaggio
(9) Bobbie Doerr (Bobby)
(10) Bruce Edwards
(11) Bob Elliott
(12) Del Ennis
(13) Bob Feller
(14) Carl Furillo
(15) Cid Gordon (Sid)
(16) Joe Gordon
(17) Joe Hatten
(18) Gill Hodges
(19) Tommy Holmes
(20) Larry Janson (Jansen)
(21) Sheldon Jones
(22) Edwin Joost
(23) Charlie Keller
(24) Ken Keltner
(25) Buddy Kerr
(26) Ralph Kiner
(27) John Lindell
(28) Whitey Lockman
(29) Willard Marshall
(30) Johnny Mize
(31) Stan Musial
(32) Andy Pafko
(33) Johnny Pesky
(34) Pee Wee Reese
(35) Phil Rizzuto
(36) Aaron Robinson
(37) Jackie Robinson
(38) John Sain
(39) Enow Slaughter
(40) Vern Stephens
(41) George Tebbetts
(42) Bob Thomson
(43) Johnny Van Der Meer (VanderMeer)
(44) Ted Williams
Boxers also Found in Set
(45) Primo Carnera
(46) Marcel Cerdan
(47) Jake LaMotta
(48) Joe Louis

Hi Dave

These are real thing. They compare exactly with my original set of cards, which I collected in 1947. And, I still have.

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

GasHouseGang

05-14-2020, 10:50 AM

I thought we should post the pictures from that Ebay listing before they disappear. I already posted a picture above of the back of the first page, so I'm not posting the backs of all the others. I am showing the picture of the back of the boxes.

Gobucsmagic74

05-14-2020, 10:57 AM

Hi Dave

These are real thing. They compare exactly with my original set of cards, which I collected in 1947. And, I still have.

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

So they would not have originated from the Sports Star Subjects boxes accompanying them in the listing unless they were re-issuing Bond Breads in the "SSS" boxes later. Where does that leave the square cornered versions? I think SGC has some explaining to do

Gobucsmagic74

05-14-2020, 11:03 AM

In other words, what the hell is this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-bond-bread-jackie-robinson-Baseball-Rookie/233558929461?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item3661327035:g:k6YAAOSwG21elWov&enc=AQAEAAACYIQvEcHUrT7nmUC3yY5qbPyaBN1nJEDYW8Myyp sJPgXKprB7XQ6kzQrRwmk40BQLKPg4gL3hjqZPtBY9dgLbq1TE L31yD7ozeHHTL39UO3AwexTkHae4gmzP60Hl51CAt3PY9cX4HA ncjclquR1Nj1seX4Chm8ZJMq%2BUKdCnVNbTruXRx8zsbqqGTQ xCfu0IDt22GVad%2BM3TjBeBF72gTj87pCyJhRZXEzDsQKdDnD JubxfgLMqkZPiN%2BI6xrh8Kl%2FbPK0u14wN1u7map%2F%2Fp RJ8vPru54RZfkR9EUKBI91POKJIUHGhs57C8wxWN86HXH8w2j1 Qc82ZcrIlw4p1M%2FK9M0iJXDXBkagBgwEJg1aP4BubsLAuyfo MOXJSwHlj1cpg0%2Fh4Epfot87vcKN6%2F7Ud9iMLldrpSFsX8 tL%2FhJGhYY1yf1G%2F%2FaPnTP9r43dP2M6Tiot9JYWIYeDk1 agHtYCWo3livPut0PS%2FEYBwo6YUmOAXhhSBDm8pW8LHIvXtx jMnljbjSwPXFCPUjkYsOrtNeu7WJv7qde6kjrF2FgLL5xaBDo2 8WXfApsM9d7qOR%2BZbW41JLIDN5hohwob9zzsT1rRELcnJdB9 R%2F2ogx3qDA7OnAbm%2B7nhTqvjBST11OH5MfcOqVPzH%2FO9 tJ1tMul3Vwa%2BEz2mv3QpLbAFN82iItYNPb1HjcZF20W2jBOX 7SlMO0r2Pd3zlGtIJVri7jardiBwEJJA3IHW1UNmhKrrQCeSlb lR5dpJrRiUmxk98xDyxNZ7oLL6M0htNGOeFbd8BMNkIFdiZ98p A9LWEu59gr&checksum=233558929461cba62b5450b945858d37c57b6da6e 6df

GasHouseGang

05-14-2020, 03:20 PM

Dan,
Well I guess that's the $64 question we've been trying to answer since 2009.

Here's a quick summary of what I think we've figured out so far:

If the card you are examining has square corners it's NOT a Bond Bread card. Is it vintage? Maybe.

If the card has round corners is it definitely a Bond Bread card? No. The Screen Star Subjects (movie star) cards came in those thin boxes and have rounded corners. Do the Sports Star Series cards have round corners? We aren't sure, but the latest cards auctioned off suggest they might since this mystery set had what appeared to be the Bond Bread cards, but also the four Sport Star Series boxes. However, no one has been able to say for sure.

Where do the cards from the Festberg find fit into all of this? No one knows exactly, but they are not Bond Bread cards.

Did I miss anything?

abctoo

05-16-2020, 11:59 PM

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

PART TWO – Like and Similar Pictures on the Different Card Sets

Post #48 (June 8, 2009) of the net54baseball.com thread, “1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?,” shows the fronts of 12 square cornered cards. Eleven of these cards are pictures of either a movie star or cowboy(s), with the last, the sole sports card pictured, of golf and other sports champion Babe Zaharias. Also shown are two different card backs, each with printed words and parts of words, that when appropriately placed side-by-side (as was done in the post) display a full text reading across the two cards in 4 lines: “46 / TRADING CARDS / ASSORTED SUBJECTS / SPORTS – HOLLYWOOD – COWBOYS.” The right card back is rubber stamped “HESS SHOES.” The left back has no rubber stamping. The left card back has printed in small type near its bottom, an illegible name which this discussion and subsequent post will explain. Along the same line of text as the small printed name on the left card back, the right card back has printed the abbreviation “No.” followed by a not discernible 4 digit number. Though HESS SHOES is still a large shoe manufacturing company and had many stores scattered around the country at the time, the rubber stamping of “HESS SHOES” appears not dissimilar from rubber stamps not too frequently found on the blank backs of cards from many sets of the 1930s and 1940s. In those cases, the rubber stamp was applied to piggyback onto a larger card release of others as promotion of the rubber stampers' personal interests. For example, the name of an individual service station can be infrequently found rubber stamped on the back of a card from a general card issue of one gasoline brand or another.

The key that led me to identifying the source of the pictures printed on all of these card sets, as well as the photographs in the Team Photo Packs sold at the time in ballparks, was the similarity of the picture and design of the Babe Zaharias card to many of the cards in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread insert set, cards of other sets, and the glossy photos in Team Photo Sets. Unfortunately, of yet I have been unable to locate any images of the other sports cards in the 46 Trading Card set identified in Post #48.

I searched the internet for Babe Zaharias pictures and found that by 1947 this multi-sport champion had already been a sports news feature for more than 15 years.

BABE ZAHARIAS

Mildred Ella “Babe” Didrikson Zaharias: (1911-1956) excelled in golf, basketball, baseball and track and field. Her her first job from High School (she dropped out) was with the Employers' Casualty Insurance of Dallas, Texas, and though designated a “secretary,” she was solely employed to play basketball as amateur on the company's “industrial team.” She led it to win the AAU Basketball Championship in 1931. At the 1932 Los Angeles Olympics, she three top medals in Track and Field - 2 gold medals (80-meter hurdles and javelin) and 1 silver (high jump). After the 1932 Olympics, she performed on the vaudeville circuit and traveled playing basketball including with Babe Dikrikson's All-American basketball team and the bearded House of David (commune).

On March 20, 1934, Didrikson pitched one inning in a major league baseball spring training exhibition game for the Philadelphia Athletics against the Brooklyn Dodgers. She gave up one walk and no hits. Two days later, on March 22, 1934, Didrikson pitched the first inning of a major league baseball exhibition game for the St. Louis Cardinals against the Boston Red Sox. It was reported that "Under tutelage of Burleigh Grimes, Dizzy Dean, and others she has learned to stand on the rubber, wind up like a big leaguer and throw a rather fair curve." The Red Sox scored three runs against Didrikson in the inning before she got Boston third baseman Bucky Walters to fly out to future Hall of Famer Joe Medwick in left field to end the inning. Didrikson was relieved at the start of the second inning by Cardinal pitcher Bill Hallahan. 400 fans were in attendance. Three days later, on March 25, 1934, she played for the New Orleans Pelicans against the Cleveland Indians, pitching two scoreless innings and lining out in her only plate appearance. Didrikson is still recognized as the world record holder for the farthest baseball throw by a woman. She also participated in multi-day straight pool matches.

By 1935, Didrikson began to play golf, a latecomer to the sport in which she became best known. Shortly thereafter, she was denied amateur status, and so, in January 1938, she competed in the Los Angeles Open, a PGA (Professional Golfers' Association) tournament. No other woman had competed against men in this tournament until Annika Sörenstam, Suzy Whaley, Michelle Wie and Brittany Lincicome almost six decades later. She shot 81 and 84, and missed the cut. In the tournament, she was teamed with George Zaharias, whom she married eleven months later. Babe Didrikson Zaharias became America's first female golf celebrity and the leading player of the 1940s and early 1950s. In order to regain amateur status in the sport, she could compete in no other sports for three years. She gained back her amateur status in 1942. In 1945, she had participated in three more PGA Tour events, missing the second cut of the first of them, and making the cut of the other two. As of 2018, she remains the only woman to have achieved this. Zaharias won the 1946 U.S. Women's Amateur Golf Championship. On June 13, 1947, she became the first American to win the British Ladies Amateur Championship, and that year (1947) won the Women's Western Opens.

Formally turning professional in 1947, Didrikson dominated the Women's Professional Golf Association and later the Ladies Professional Golf Association, of which she was a founding member. Zaharias had her greatest year in 1950 when she completed the Grand Slam of the three women's majors of the day: the U.S. Open, the Titleholders Championship, and the Women's Western Open, a feat that made her the leader on the money list that year. Also that year, she reached 10 wins faster than any other LPGA golfer, doing so in one year and 20 days, a record that still stands. She was the leading money-winner again in 1951, and in 1952 took another major with a Titleholders victory, but cancer prevented her from playing a full schedule in 1952–53. This did not stop her from becoming the fastest player to reach 20 wins (two years and four months). In remission, she continued to win, but reoccurrance of the cancer in 1955 led to her death in 1956.

ZAHARIAS PHOTO ON CARD

Of the numerous pictures and newspaper clipping photographs I viewed, the posed picture of Zaharias shown on the card in Post #48 is the best photograph of her to appear during the over 25 years she had been a multi-sport champion before her death. I located that posed Babe Zaharias picture on the website of the Smithsonian Institute. The picture is also in the New York Public Library's collection. The glossy photograph comes in 8” x 10” and 8” x 12½” (the extra 2½” is a blank, white space extension from one of the the short sides of the photo). Glossy photos can be found without Babe's name imprinted and printed in the same typeface as on the card in Post #48. Reprints are being offered on eBay and elsewhere for around $20.00 each.

The Smithsonian describes the picture as: (1) Title: Mildred 'Babe' Didrickson Zaharias, full-length portrait, facing front, swinging golf club, (2) Date Created/Published: 1947, and (3) Notes: Acme Photo, New York World-Telegraph and Sun Newspapers Photograph Collection No. 806457. The Smithsonian's New York World-Telegraph and Sun Newspapers Collection contains 1,000,000 photographs and negatives and was acquired in the middle to late 1950s after those publications went defunct.

In Post #199, member Jeremy W caught the copyright notice placed at the bottom of my May 7, 2020 Post #198. The following quote from the Smithsonian's website related to the 1947 ACME photo of Babe Zaharias clarifies a reason why many vintage cards have defied full identification. As the world's biggest collector of things, the Smithsonian says:

“Publication and other forms of distribution: May be restricted. The ACME archives was bought by CORBIS, which controlled the copying of ACME images physically housed in its archives in New York City. In 2016, CORBIS was, in turn, sold to Visual China Group (VCG), which arranged to have Getty Images be the exclusive distributor of CORBIS images outside of China.

“Neither VCG nor Getty Images controls the copying of ACME images housed in the Library of Congress. However, any copyright held by ACME that is still current would now be owned by VCG, administered by Getty Images. Getty Images can be contacted at: http://gettyimages.com/customer-support

“In an attempt to determine if ACME registered any copyrights and if those copyrights were renewed, Specialists in the Prints and Photographs Division of the Library of Congress searched the Copyright Office files. It was found that only a few images were registered for copyright and those copyrights were not renewed. However, the Library’s legal office has advised the Division that photographs published with proper copyright notices 95 years ago or less up until 1963 may be protected if the copyright was properly renewed, while works published after 1963 and unpublished photographs in the collection may be protected even if they were not registered with the Copyright Office.”

“Reproduction (photocopying, hand-held camera copying, photoduplication and other forms of copying allowed by "fair use") . . ..” The New York Public Library's website has a similar notice about ACME.

The 1947 Babe Zaharias picture appeared in the Decca Battery advertisement in the August 12, 1950 edition of “Saturday Evening Post.” That year (1950) was Babe Zaharias' best year, with the triple crown of women's golf added to her extensive record of victories.

http://i.imgur.com/6pOQB0C.jpg?1

A highly cropped version of the 1947 Babe Zaharias picture is on the 1990 Sports Illustrated for Kids, Series 1 Card #211.

Much more about the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread 48 card bread package insert set and other sets with like and similar pictures will be posted shortly. Those discussions will not only explain what ACME is, but why some pictures on cards are darker than others and why others may appear more deteriorated. We are organizing the extensive amount of information obtained into a logical order and other additional information about the manufacturers, publishers and years of issue will be presented. “We” is the editorial “we.”

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

abctoo

05-17-2020, 03:13 AM

Ted, here are the pictures from the listing on Ebay. The first photo is the fronts of the card page with Jackie Robinson and the second photo is the backs of the cards on that page.

By the way, he listed these as 1947 Bond Bread cards. The final price realized was $4545.

In response to Posts #213 through #217 about the Sport Star four box set sold on eBay, the pictures of three of the boxes show a small indicia near the opposite edge of the backs from the printed "No. 600." One of those indicias is inverted from the other two. In the picture of the fourth box, the indicia is covered by another part of that box. While the indicia shown in the scans appear to be Chinese or Japanese, they are not. They are merely the product of a low resolution scan of a poorly printed label. From those images, it appears that the indicia might read: "ANPS / 1947©". Can someone provide a clear picture of the indicia or confirm what it says?

Ted, your initial response to Post #213 is not a lapse of memory. You previously indicated that you never had a "Sport Star Subjects" set, a set issued with a different purpose than the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread insert set. In the more than 60 years from these sets being issued and the start of this thread, many articles, pictures, and inaccurate listings of the cards in these sets and similar ones, have appeared. Most misdescribe the cards and sets as "Bond Bread." Those lists often erroneously included a card that could not have been issued in 1947 for numerous reasons. For example, the player was in a uniform of or identified as being a member of a team he did not join until after 1947. You, like many others, were led to believe what others thought was the year of issue of the "Sport Sar Subjects" set based on misinformation about it. There is no question about your memory of receiving cards inserted into Bond Bread packages. We are fortunate, you have kept alive the fervor of all of those who collected them back then. We are also quite fortunate that you have consistently attempted to correct the "industry" portion of the card collecting hobby to protect collectors from their abuses.

The poor guy who had built a collection of the 12 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson giveaways suffered a paper loss in value when many of those cards turned out not to be rookie cards, but rather issued in 1948 and 1949. All of those cards are still more scarce than the bread package insert cards. With the "Sport Star Subjects" set being dated to 1947, that means it contains many cards that were previously unrecognized as "rookie" cards, including a Jackie Robinson one.

In a future post in this thread, I will explain why the rounded corners of some of the cards in the "Sport Star Subjects" appear to be cut the same as those on some of the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread insert cards. I will also explain why some of the cards in Bond Bread insert set have different cut rounded corners than cards of the same player in that same Bond Bread insert card set. Likewise, the "Sport Star Subjects" set has corner variations. That, and explaining the pictures and printing is taking time to put together, but it will be posted.

Thanks, Mike

abctoo

05-18-2020, 12:29 PM

Today, in searching for more information on Bond Bread cards, I found being offered on eBay the following item described as a 1947 counter top tent display. The sign says there was "bubble gum" along with the cards in bread packages. Can anyone explain this?

http://i.imgur.com/ajwrgZw.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/u7Z8afZ.jpg?1

Exhibitman

05-18-2020, 02:22 PM

Michael, I read through your two lengthy posts and maybe I am having a case of the Mondays, but I didn't see any information about the cards. Can you recap, in a sentence who you think made the various cards that didn't come in the bread packages?

JeremyW

05-18-2020, 03:13 PM

Michael, I read through your two lengthy posts and maybe I am having a case of the Mondays, but I didn't see any information about the cards. Can you recap, in a sentence who you think made the various cards that didn't come in the bread packages?

I hear that. I thought maybe it was only me.

abctoo

05-18-2020, 06:13 PM

I appreciate that many may want just a quick name to label their cards by. But just thowing out a name is how the problem started over 50 years ago . . . everything became a "Bond Bread" card. It's taken over ten years for this thread to reach this point and still no real agreement on just what the various sets are.

For example, the perforated cards are not just perforated on 3 sides but also on two and four sides. I am reconstructing sheets to see if the baseball player side of those cards was printed in the same format as the Bond Bread package insert cards and the Sport Star Subject sets. To one who only collects baseball cards, the popularity of calling one of those cards by the player name and saying it has Cowboy or some other back may seem sufficient. But look at the three sided perforated card bearing the player signature that reads "Cid Gordon." To merely call it a perforated Gordon Card with a Cowboy back would be both a collecting error and financial mistake. The "Cowboy" pictured on the back is Gene Autry. There are more collectors of entertainment cards who avidly seek obscure cards of Gene Autry than baseball card collectors who can tell you who Sid Gordon is.

Some others of these "Cowboy" or "Westerns" backed perforated cards, contain stills of key scenes from some of the most popular movies of the day. At least one has printed in very small type the movie title and the names of the actors along with their key phrase from that scene, which, like "As may the force be with you" did from "Star Wars" entered into the spoken language of popular culture of the time. We either know what these cards are, or are merely holding them to pass off for profit.

I believe that without the background information being provided, the questions about these sets will continue long after the currently remaining facts about them are lost.

I was just mailed a card from a set I can find no record of. It has the same player picture as that player is pictured in the sets of the Bond Bread package inserts, Sport Star Subjects, Exhibits, and others. Like you, I too want to figure out what it is that I have. When it arrives, I will post pictures.

Thank you for understanding,

Mike

abctoo

05-18-2020, 06:58 PM

P.S. I need your help. Can anybody provide the actual wording of the printed small type not clearly shown in the pictures in Post #48 near the bottom of the left of the two backs pictured (not the back rubbered-stamped "Hess Shoes"). It appears to me to say something like: "A-N PICTURES SERVICE." Also in Post #216, the pictures of the backs of three of the four Sport Star Subjects set boxes show an illegible two line indicia which to me might read as "ANPS / 1947©." Can anyone provide what either of these two say? If you can post a high resolution scan of either, that would be better.

Thanks again,

Mike

GasHouseGang

05-18-2020, 08:14 PM

P.S. I need your help. Can anybody provide the actual wording of the printed small type not clearly shown in the pictures in Post #48 near the bottom of the left of the two backs pictured (not the back rubbered-stamped "Hess Shoes"). It appears to me to say something like: "A-N PICTURES SERVICE." Also in Post #216, the pictures of the backs of three of the four Sport Star Subjects set boxes show an illegible two line indicia which to me might read as "ANPS / 1947©." Can anyone provide what either of these two say? If you can post a high resolution scan of either, that would be better.

Thanks again,

Mike

I took the pictures from the Ebay listing, and blew them up, also turned them upside down to see if that helped decipher what is written. I'm not sure what it says. Maybe someone else can read it.

abctoo

05-19-2020, 03:22 AM

Thanks, David. I could see no better when I tried to blow up those box pictures. Perhaps, someone out there who has a box or other picture of the indicia would help us out by posting a scan? David, the Sport Star Subjects set box issues are not new to you. For example, in Posts #123 and #126 of 08-02-2016, you pictured a similar box for the "Navy Ships" set, that set and promotional material of it. Those pictures clearly show the box and promotional item are inscribed with the name of A.J. Wildman & Son of New York. It would have been easy to let it go at that. Your posts also explained why that was not the solution to identifying the Sport Star Subjects set.

I am a collector, but not just a collector of baseball cards. My analysis of what the box indicia say comes from when I was a teenager in the 1960s starting to build a postal history collection including 19th Century congressional free franking covers. I am just now in the process of selling that collection off. That meant I had to learn how to decipher many a scrawled hand- written signature that on its face appeared unreadable. I still cannot get them all, even though complete alphabetical lists and chronological lists of each two year session of Congress are readily available. Just like many of the sets and their cards lumped together under the "Bond Bread" label, we have pictures of some and descriptions of others, but that is insufficient to even adequately describe that we can hold in our hands or even see.

The next post in this thread of my articles on Bond Bread and associated sets will identify the copyright holder of the sports pictures shown in the many of those sets, and how that company not only had the facilities to reproduce 7,000 to 10,000 glossy photographs from a single negative in a day, but handled 100s, if not 1,000s of negatives daily, routinely distributing box loads of prints by train, truck and other methods. The attribution of the Team Photo Packs sold in ballparks will be made to that company based on the empirical evidence gathered, even though none of us saw what happened and we have no contracts or invoices identifying anything.

The 1948 Bowman set includes a cropped version of at least one of the pictures used in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread package insert set. That's 1948 Bowman #43 Bruce Edwards. Does the counter-top sign I posted yesterday which indicates each large loaf Bond Bread package would have both a Bond Bread card and bubble gum inside mean that the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread package insert set should considered the rookie set of the Bowman Company? Even if it were the same gum as Bowman's, I don't think so. But anyone out there can help in identifying the sets by posting any information or comments they might have about the question of whether there was bubble gum inside the Bond Bread packages.

Thank you very much,

Mike

tedzan

05-19-2020, 07:58 AM

Mike

The source for the images in the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards (issued Summer 1947)….1947 TIP TOP BREAD, subsequent
similar cards (issued circa 1949), 1948 and 1949 BOWMAN cards, etc. are from the Major League (and Minor League) Stadium
issued Team Photo packs (examples shown here).
I have traced the source of these Photos to the Harry M. Stevens Publishing Co., who produced the Major (and Minor) League
Yearbooks since the early 1920's.

Some examples of the 1947 and 1948 Team Photo packs...…

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1947stadpixbbcards.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1947bbstadpixlindell.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1948pixdobypaige_1.jpg

Harry M. Stevens Publishing Co.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1923WorldSeriesProgram25x.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

abctoo

05-19-2020, 11:20 AM

Ted, you're are sure going in the right direction and know your stuff. In 1923, ACME Newspictures Service was founded to take over much of the Scripps' newspaper chain and syndicate's collection, processing and distribution of the newsphoto side of the business. What ACME does and how they got there is a longer story. The impact of ACME was glossed over in the discussions in other net54 ball threads about which cards of the Bond Bread Jackie Robinson special set are rookie cards. Those threads used the caption on ACME's photo pictured on one of those cards to establish it could not have been issued before 1949. For use in this thread, I am including here from one of those threads the photos of the card, the front of the ACME photo and its back which provided the details. Unfortunately, those pictures were posted before photobucket starting overprinting pictures and now have that overprint. If anyone can post them without photobucket's overprint, many of us reading this thread, as well as those engaged in the other threads, would be much appreciative. Thanks, Mike

http://i.imgur.com/okxvybi.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/RbKRGPE.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/gQXDMpt.jpg?1

abctoo

05-20-2020, 12:40 AM

Here's some information from Wikipedia about Harry M. Stevens, the publisher of the scorecard shown two post above:

"Harry Mozley Stevens {AKA Hotdog man} (14 June 1855 – 3 May 1934) was a food concessionaire from England who has been variously attributed as the inventor of the hot dog, but has nevertheless been credited with being America's foremost ballpark concessionaire. In 1887 he founded Harry M Stevens Inc., a stadium concessions company which was based in Cranbury, New Jersey until it was acquired by Aramark on December 12, 1994. Harry Stevens was born in London in 1855 but had connections to Litchurch in Derby, England. He emigrated to Niles, Ohio in the 1880s.

"On arrival in the States, he became obsessed with baseball and quickly made his mark by designing and selling the sport's first scorecard - a design still in use to this day. By 1900, Stevens had secured contracts to supply refreshments at several Major League ballparks across the US. He also began to sell scorecards to fans with the phrase: "You can't tell the players without a scorecard."

"Stevens is credited with telling the story that at the home opener of the New York Giants on a cold April day in 1901 there was limited demand for ice cream. He decided to sell German sausages known as 'dachshund sausages.' When the staff ran out of the wax paper on which the sausages were traditionally served Stevens had one of his employees purchase some buns and had the staff place the hot dogs in the buns, creating what became known today as the hot dog. A cartoonist, recording the event, was reputed to have been unable to spell dachshund, so wrote hot dogs instead. The family has since acquired the original cartoon and has preserved it."

Before the company was sold in 1994, if any one of us walked up to any big league ballpark in the country, a hawker would try to sell us one of Stevens' scorecards. If we bought any food from a concessionaire, we bought food from the Stevens Company. Like the Coca-Cola and Cracker Jacks Stevens sold, the company did not make the Team Photo Packs. Think about it. If the 48 card Bond Bread set was based on Team Photo Packs, where did the four pictures of the boxers come from? Something to think about.

abctoo

05-27-2020, 11:07 PM

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part One (Working)

The “1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ? “ title of the net54ball thread started in 2009 by Ted Zanidakas got right to the point. At that time, numerous cards with pictures similar to the 48 cards of the 1947-48 Homogenized Bond Bread package insert card set had been misidentified as belonging to that set. The size of these other cards did not matter, nor did questions about whether they had rounded or square corners, nor did the fact that some had printed or rubber-stamped text or pictures on the back, nor did the thickness or toning of the paperstock on which they were printed. Now after a dozen years, we find that the convenience to the card marketplace for an easy identifications of can have value has fully distorted proper attribution of many of these cards. Many of them, including the cards of 1947-48 Homogenized Bond Bread package insert set, come from sets that are quite scarce, if not downright rare.

The purpose of this Appendix is not to put names on these sets. That will be done in the body of this article as its parts are posted. Rather, this Appendix is an attempt to identify all of the issues that have been attributed in someway or another as a “1947 Bond Bread “ card or set. YOUR HELP IS NEEDED! Whether you agree or disagree with what is written in this appendix, please participate by posting in the thread your comments, criticisms and especially scans of any cards not already pictured that come from any set that could be misdescribed as “Bond Bread.” You will be helping us all. Even just the posting of a scan of one of these missing cards adds to the pool of knowledge. While the quantities issued of some of these various sets may be high, few cards have survived. Please, if you can just post any picture of one of these cards (front and back) by itself, you will create a record so that others years from now won't have to start all over again when perhaps the specific card you have is no longer available.

The magnitude of the 1947-1948 Homogenized Bond Bread package insert issue demonstrates that General Baking with its Bond Bread (first baked in 1915) product promotion was no new comer to advertising. How many cards were issued can be be derived from a pre-War Bond Bread blotter promotion, which included the following blotter:

https://i.imgur.com/TvC9f9M.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VYIC7WY.jpg?1

A million loafs of bread baked daily by 1940. If all loafs had one of the 48 cards of the 1947-48 Homogenized Bond Bread packet insert card, that's 1,000,000 cards used each day. At least, thirty million a month could have been inserted from about April 1947 into perhaps March 1948, with the promotion increasing the month volume of Bond Bread sales. That could be over a billion cards! Where they are? We do not know. Very few have turned up in over 70 years. Most of the known cards that can be accurately attributed are in the hands of those who took them out of the bread packages. When WWII started, the Bond Bread blotter promotion was shifted to picturing Navy Airplanes, a theme that was carried over into its then ongoing matchbook issues. Post-War, the blotter program shifted to picturing “Modern Miracles” and related topics. The 1947-1948 Homogenized Bond Bread package insert set appears to have been its next major promotion. What it did between 1948 and 1950 is not fully clear. We do know that beginning in 1947 Bond Bread began giving away the 12-13 (or more?) cards of its special Jackie Robinson set and that promotion continued to at least 1949. The Jackie Robinson 1947-48 Homogenized Bond Bread packet insert card would have been issued in 1947 to capitalize on the other Jackie Robinson giveaways and would be missed if not immediately available to fans. In 1950-1951 Bond Bread sponsored Hopalong Cassidy on the radio and issued 2x3 inch Hopalong Cassidy cards, one to each bread package like it had done with its 48 sports card set in 1947-48. Note that the bread package seal pictures Hopalong Cassidy. Over 30 bread package seals were issue, each with an individual number starting with the number "1."

https://i.imgur.com/mm1Mvvj.jpg?1

To not overload an individual post, this Appendix is being split into parts, and will continue with the posting of Part Two.

Please respond with anything you might want to say or show. Such contributions will be welcomed by all of us. Posting pictures is even better.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

phikappapsi

05-28-2020, 05:56 AM

Michael - fun to see you diving in. Can I ask a simpleton's question?

Why are you attempting to (or perhaps successfully) copyrighting message board posts? I cannot for the life of me envision a scenario where someone is going to attempt to steal your intellectual property for their own gain, on a relatively obscure 70+ year old bread/baseball crossover set.

feels a bit unnecessary. especially since most of the info you've provided has been aggregated from already publicly available documents. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work/effort you're putting in, but we all have google (and Ted) to tell us this information.

abctoo

05-28-2020, 09:05 AM

In the late 1960s, I acquired a lot of ancient holed cast coins of Korea from the estate of the grandchildren of a missionary who brought them back to the United States in the late 1870s. I spent over two years researching and identifying more than 3,700 hundred different ones. Only about 10% of them were known from the period of the several centuries they covered. I even make detailed drawings. Besides my extensive independent research, many collectors provided invaluable information and incite on the subject. I had thought we all understood that the work was soon to be published for benefit of us all, with the contributors receiving free copies of the final product. At the request of Edgar Mandel of Coral Gables, Florida, who claimed to have some significant information, I sent a near final working draft. In response, he published it as its author and offered it for sale at a high price. None of us, not even I, received a free copy for our contributions.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

abctoo

05-28-2020, 09:32 PM

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part Two (Working)

1. The 48 card set (44 baseball players and 4 boxers) inserted in 1947-1948 into Homogenized Bond Bread packages.

Characteristics:

1. Printed on one side
2. White Paper Stock
3. Corners
a. Some with very crudely cut/die cut rounded corners
b. Most with distinctive die cutting, but not of the quality of playing cards

The confusion with look-a-likes and the lack of ability on the part of most people and grading services makes it quite often impossible to tell one apart from another. True Bond Bread cards are actually quite scarce if not rare. If I was one who actually took a card out of a Bond Bread package or obtained it from someone I knew conclusively actually did, then I would take a small card-size piece of paper, give it a heading of “DECLARATION,” and put in the following text: “I, [name] declare under penalty of perjury that I [or if appropriate insert the following phrase: “acquired this card from [name] who”] personally obtained the attached card from a package of Homogenized Bond Bread.,” then date and sign. I would keep the declaration with the card.

http://i.imgur.com/pPNpzVv.jpg?2

2. 1947 Team Photo Packs.

Before and after WWII, real photographs of members of individual baseball teams were available from several sources in a variety of sizes, such 5” x 7”, 6½” x 9” and 8” x 10”, and usually were sold at ballparks, by mail, on some news-stands and in some variety stores. The envelope containing a team set could vary by publisher, and different team sets from the same publisher could vary in the number of photographs from 8 to 31. Most of the team photo packs had printed on the outside of the envelope containing them at least an identification of the team by its name or team logo. Some were dated, but most were not. It was not an uncommon practice to not change a previous year's team photo set if all of the players pictured in the prior year still remained on the team. That was especially true during the early post-WWII years of 1946, 1947 and 1948. Publishers of these sets could be the team itself, the maker of the Team Photo Packs sold by ballpark concessioneer Harry M. Stevens, or others.

The printing and developing of the large quantity of photographs needed to supply the demand was no small task. The volume of photograph needed meant that the printing and developing would have begun long before the new baseball season started. Large photographic printing companies had machines that could print 10,000 glossy real photos from a single negative within an 8 hour day. A single team set containing 25 photographs could require the equivalent of twenty-five 8-hour workdays to produce. Of course, these companies had many more than just one machine to process negatives. Such machines ran 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (except when down for maintenance), to recoup their high purchase prices. Sets of more popular teams sold in larger quantities than those of other teams. To be ready for a new season, the quantities of sets made for an individual team could depend on how many of the previous year's sets had sold or still remained. That was determined long before the new season started, with new printings in a sufficient supply to last throughout the season. The timing can lead to interesting mix-ups in Team Photo Packs. For example, a portrait of Joe Gordon in a Cleveland Indians uniform was included in the 1947 Indians Team Photo Pack, and he does not appear in the 1947 Yankees Team Photo Pack – the pack of the team he actually played for in 1947. The Bond Bread insert set and look-a-likes show Joe Gordon in an action shot in a Yankees uniform, and not his portrait in an Indians uniform.

http://i.imgur.com/omRVEfn.jpg?1

Similarly, the following pictures are from the 1947 Team Photo Packs sold by Harry M. Stevens in ballparks. The Bond Bread insert set and look-a-likes show actions shots instead. Below are such examples of the portrait type photographs in the initial printing of the player's respective team photograph sets sold in the ballparks – Bob Feller (Indians), Ken Keltner (Indians) and Gil Hodges (Dodgers).

http://i.imgur.com/JaZervd.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/JaZervd)

A Duke Snider “rookie” is not in the Bond Bread set, but is in the Dodgers Team Photo Pack. He earned a tryout with the Brooklyn Dodgers during their Spring training in 1947. Snider played his first game with the Dodgers (and in the Major Leagues) on April 17, 1947, the second day of the season. In early July, he was sent down to the St. Paul Saints, but returned to the Dodgers at the end of the season in time to play against the New York Yankees in the 1947 World Series. In all, in 1947 he played 39 Major League games during the regular season. Timing is everything with production and distribution of products related to baseball. Snider's absence from the Bond Bread insert set could suggest the 1947 Dodgers Team Photo Sets were produced before Spring training without him, or were reprinted during the season because the existing supply did not meet the demand.

Very few, if any of the glossy photos from the Team Photo Packs ever get misdescribed as “Bond Bread” photos. Yet, much of the discussion about the source of the photos used on the Bond Bread cards and their look-a-likes can only compound the public's confusion about what is what. I've seen complete, individual Team Photo Sets from 1946 through 1950 on the internet at prices from $50 to $250 or more, with some hipping certain individual players for more.

We can all help clarify the Team Photo Pack issues. If anyone has a Team Photo Pack from 1946 through 1948 of any of the teams of players appearing on the “Bond Bread” insert set, please confirm that the picture in the individual teams set is or is not the same as that on the Bond Bread insert card. My limited access to such sets has led me to only the following identifications. I have used the word, “pix” to mean picture.

NEW YORK GIANTS
-------------------
JOHNNY MIZE (pix in the 1948 Giants Team Photo Pack)
SID GORDON (not yet determined)
LARRY JANSEN (pix in 1948 Team Photo Pack)
SHELDON JONES (pix in 1948 Team Photo Pack)
BUDDY KERR (pix in 1948 Team Photo Pack)
WHITEY LOCKMAN (pix in the Giants 1948 Team Photo Pack)
WILLARD MARSHALL (not yet determined)
BOBBY THOMSON (pix in the Giants 1948 Team Photo Pack)

Note: the Walker Cooper pix (not part of Bond Bread set) but discussed in this thread is in the 1948 Team Photo Pack

BROOKLYN DODGERS
--------------------
JACKIE ROBINSON (pix in 1947 Dodgers Team Photo Pack)
REX BARNEY (Not in the 1947 Team Photo Pack)
RALPH BRANCA (pix in 1947 Team Photo Pack)
BRUCE EDWARDS (not yet determined)
CARL FURILLO (pix in 1947 Dodgers Tetam Photo Pack)
JOE HATTEN (pix in 1947 Dodgers Team Photo Pack)
GIL HODGES (card is different picture than 1947 Dodgers Team Photo Pack)
PEE WEE REESE (pix in 1947 Dodgers Team Photo Pack)

NEW YORK YANKEES
--------------------
JOE DiMAGGIO (same as Team Photo Pack)
LARRY BERRA (same as Team Photo Pack)
JOE GORDON (NOT IN Yankees Team Photo Pack, but in Indians uniform in 1947 Indians Team Photo Pack, he was traded by the Indians to the Yankees Oct. 11, 1946 for Allie Reynolds)
CHARLIE KELLER (same as Team Photo Pack)
JOHNNY LINDELL (same as Team Photo Pack)
PHIL RIZZUTO (same as Team Photo Pack)
AARON ROBINSON (unknown pix included in Team Photo Pack)

BOSTON RED SOX
------------------
TED WILLIAMS 1947-47 Red Sox Team Photo Pack has portrait of Williams, not action shot as Bond Bread card)
DOM DIMAGGIO (1947-47 Red Sox Team Photo Pack has portrait of Dom DiMaggio , not action shot as Bond Bread card)
BOBBY DOERR (1947-47 Red Sox Team Photo Pack has portrait of Doerr, not action shot as Bond Bread card)
JOHNNY PESKY

CLEVELAND INDIANS
---------------------
BOB FELLER (The 1947 Indians Team Photo Pack has a portrait of Bob Feller, not an action shot like the Bond Bread set)
LOU BOUDREAU (1948 Indians Team Pack has portrait of Boudeau, Feller and Keltner, not action shots)
KEN KELTNER (The 1947 Indians Team Photo Pack has a portrait of Ken Keltner, not an action shot like the Bond Bread set)
GEORGE (BIRDIE') TEBBETTS (not yet determined)

ST LOUIS CARDINALS
----------------------
STAN MUSIAL (not yet determined)
HARRY BRECHEEN (not yet determined)
ENOS SLAUGHTER (not yet determined)

BOSTON BRAVES
-----------------
JOHNNY SAIN (not yet determined)
BOB ELLIOTT (not yet determined)
TOMMY HOLMES (not yet determined)

CINCINNATI REDS
-------------------
EWELL BLACKWELL (not yet determined)
JOHNNY VANDERMEER (not yet determined)

CHICAGO CUBS
-------------
ANDY PAFKO (not yet determined)

PHILADELPHIA ATHLETICS
--------------------------
EDDIE JOOST (not yet determined)

PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES
-------------------------
DEL ENNIS (not yet determined)

PITTSBURGH PIRATES
----------------------
RALPH KINER (not yet determined)

ST LOUIS BROWNS
-------------------
VERN STEPHENS (not yet determined)

Let's put an end to the serious “Bond Bread” debacle. Your contributions can help prevent collectors from being misled and paying too much for a mislabeled item, and can increase the value of other cards that have been cast aside as merely “Bond Bread” ones. Today, I saw on the internet a card called “Ted Williams Card From Bond Bread,” which is pictured below. [Ted said to “show us your cards.”] If I even said its the wrong picture, would I be saying too much?

http://i.imgur.com/90KsJ4e.jpg?1

To not overload an individual post, this Appendix is being split into parts, and will continue with the posting of Part Three.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

Scott Janzen

05-29-2020, 07:50 PM

Hello all, and thanks to the administrators for letting me in. Although I have used OldCardboard.com and PreWarCards.com extensively these past few months, I only discovered this site yesterday after doing a Google search for "Bond Bread Baseball Cards". I'm thrilled to have read this insightful discussion and thank Ted for opening the thread with his experience and insight and Michael (ABCToo) for his great research.

I did not collect many pre-war cards until this year; but now I love all of the great old issues, especially these and Exhibits cards with all of there wonderful black and white photographic images. In buying some cards on Ebay I have done research on PSA, the grading site. It seemed obvious that there is confusion about the Homogenized Bond Bread issue and classification/origin. This group has opened my eyes to what reality is. I agree with most of the analysis of what is, and what isn't a Bond Bread card.

Ok, newbies first comment and/or question about the actual post: While I agree that many of these cards are infacto Rookie Cards of many of the ballplayers of the era, is it possible that this fact has been ignored because Bond Bread was not widely distributed throughout the USA in that era? It seems it may have been more of a regional bread and card distribution in the east coast areas (where admittedly most of the ball clubs existed in the 1940's). Please correct my assumption if this is inaccurate. Thanks

abctoo

05-30-2020, 06:41 AM

Hello all, and thanks to the administrators for letting me in. Although I have used OldCardboard.com and PreWarCards.com extensively these past few months, I only discovered this site yesterday after doing a Google search for "Bond Bread Baseball Cards". I'm thrilled to have read this insightful discussion and thank Ted for opening the thread with his experience and insight and Michael (ABCToo) for his great research.

I did not collect many pre-war cards until this year; but now I love all of the great old issues, especially these and Exhibits cards with all of there wonderful black and white photographic images. In buying some cards on Ebay I have done research on PSA, the grading site. It seemed obvious that there is confusion about the Homogenized Bond Bread issue and classification/origin. This group has opened my eyes to what reality is. I agree with most of the analysis of what is, and what isn't a Bond Bread card.

Ok, newbies first comment and/or question about the actual post: While I agree that many of these cards are infacto Rookie Cards of many of the ballplayers of the era, is it possible that this fact has been ignored because Bond Bread was not widely distributed throughout the USA in that era? It seems it may have been more of a regional bread and card distribution in the east coast areas (where admittedly most of the ball clubs existed in the 1940's). Please correct my assumption if this is inaccurate. Thanks

Welcome Scott,

I much appreciate your post. To me, the Bond Bread insert set is a regional issue. I grew up in the Oakland area of California. In the late 1940s and into the 1950s, the three Big Leagues for me were the Pacific Coast League, the National League and the American League. We had no MBL until 1958, when two "regional" teams moved from New York, one to San Francisco and the other to Los Angeles.

Today, the 1946-1950 Oakland Oaks bread sets are listed in many catalogs "Remar Bread Oakland Oaks." By 1947, the name on the bread packages changed from the baking company's name of "Remar" to their brand name, "Sunbeam." Being so young then, I had never heard of "Remar Bread," only of "Sunbeam Bread." To go to an extreme, you could ask why the "Bond Bread" and "Tip Top Bread" sets are not called the "General Baking" sets after the name of their baking company.

Scott, I hope I'm not rambling too much, but you are right in raising the issue of what is a "rookie" card.

In the 1980s as the "rookie" card hype and demand rapidly increased, many started or returned to card collecting because they could find quantities of current cards and sell them at outrageous prices. In new cards issues, manufacturers even began to replace journeymen players with untried rookies and special "inserts." It was even debated whether the Mark Maguire Olympics baseball card from the 1984 Topps baseball set was his "rookie" card because he did not play in the Major Leagues until later. Desipte the tens of thousands of a single card being graded, Wow! -- the demand and prices just grew, with "rookie" cards and special inserts still a main selling factor of new sets today.

Well, if you can get that kind of money for a common card, what about the "rookie" cards of retired players, especially those in the Hall of Fame? But these weren't that easy to find as those few who had been collecting for years before had found out. Without an adequate supply to meet the hyped-up demand for "rookie" cards, what did they do? First, they dropped the idea that a "rookie" card had to be issued the first year a player played professional baseball (those playing in the minor leagues also get paid). Such cards just did not exist for too many players. Then, they sidestepped the idea that a "rookie" had to be the actual first card a player appeared on. No adequate supply of regionally issued cards existed to touch the "rookie" card demand for old players.

Well, what are often considered as "the major" companies had had wide scale distribution of cards with sets including these players. And, obviously while not available in the quantities of "rookie" cards of the 1980s, "rookie" cards could be found and sold to meet demand. The Jackie Robinson 1948 Leaf baseball card fit the requirement. Though this card is not from his first year playing in the Major Leagues (1947 was his Major League rookie year) and was issued a year after his 1947 Bond Bread insert card and some of his other Bond Bread giveaways, in the parlance of the trade, the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson card is his "rookie card."

Scott, again thank you for your post. Keep them coming. I took to heart what you said. You've helped me understand just how easily a label can be put on something that has different meanings to different people. That's one of the problems in distinguishing Bond Bread package insert and giveaway cards from the many others erroneously labeled as "Bond Bread" cards. In the future, I will attempt to not label cards merely as "rookie" cards, but will identify them as either: (1) issued during the player's first year playing professional baseball, (2) first year playing in the Major Leagues, (3) first card issued of player, or (4) first card issued by set manufacturer. That's a lot more words than saying "rookie" card, but at least it won't be so ambiguous that somebody could think we're talking about something.

Mike

tedzan

05-30-2020, 10:22 AM

Well, what are often considered as "the major" companies had had wide scale distribution of cards with sets including these players. And, obviously while not available in the quantities of "rookie" cards of the 1980s, "rookie" cards could be found and sold to meet demand. The Jackie Robinson 1948 Leaf baseball card fit the requirement. Though this card is not from his first year playing in the Major Leagues (1947 was his Major League rookie year) and was issued a year after his 1947 Bond Bread insert card and some of his other Bond Bread giveaways, in the parlance of the trade, the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson card is his "rookie card."
Mike

Mike
The 1949 LEAF set is NOT a "1948 Leaf" issue. LEAF issued a Boxing set, Football set, and Pirates set in 1948. I collected all these cards as a very young fellow back then.

The 98 subjects in the 1949 LEAF set were issued in two Series. The first 49 cards were issued in early Spring 1949. The 2nd Series of 49 cards were issued circa July - Aug 1949.
Furthermore, this 2nd Series of cards were regionally limited to distribution only in the Boston area, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio (and perhaps the St. Louis area). I published an 8-page
article on this set in the OLD CARDBOARD magazine (Issue #9). Check-it-out.
So, please get your facts straight regarding these LEAF sets.

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

abctoo

05-30-2020, 01:05 PM

Mike
The 1949 LEAF set is NOT a "1948 Leaf" issue. LEAF issued a Boxing set, Football set, and Pirates set in 1948. I collected all these cards as a very young fellow back then.

The 98 subjects in the 1949 LEAF set were issued in two Series. The first 49 cards were issued in early Spring 1949. The 2nd Series of 49 cards were issued circa July - Aug 1949.
Furthermore, this 2nd Series of cards were regionally limited to distribution only in the Boston area, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio (and perhaps the St. Louis area). I published an 8-page
article on this set in the OLD CARDBOARD magazine (Issue #9). Check-it-out.
So, please get your facts straight regarding these LEAF sets.

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Ted, you are absolutely correct. I make no excuses and should have been more careful. I did exactly what my response to Scott said should not be done.

I had intended to post a picture of what many call the "rookie" card of Jackie Robinson but nodded off. When I woke up, I did a bing search for a "Jackie Robinson rookie card" to get a picture and found Old Sports Cards blog article entitled “Jackie Robinson Baseball Cards: The Ultimate Collectors Guide” at
https://www.oldsportscards.com/jackie-robinson-baseball-cards/ . Old Sports Cards said: "1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson Rookie Card / Estimated PSA 8 Value: $45,000 / There is only one true rookie card for Jackie Robinson, and that is the iconic 1948 Leaf." Still in a daze, I adjusted my post and submitted it without taking time to even add a picture.

Ted, after I read your post, I retraced my steps to understand what I had done. One of the next items in the search was a direct link to the PSA company's website: https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/baseball-cards/1948-leaf/jackie-robinson-79/21593/ That webpage said: “This is the only true rookie card of baseball's first African-American representative and hero to all,” and showed the following picture.

https://i.imgur.com/vLtvRIi.png?1

We both know the Leaf card was issued in 1949, not 1948. As I put in my response to Scott above, the use of a "rookie" label to identify a card is extremely misleading, and often used not merely inaccurately, but for profit. Even if someone thought that a true "rookie" card could only be one that was issued by a gum manufacturer (like Topps, Bowman or Leaf), the 1948 Swell Sports Thrills #3 Jackie Robinson would predate the 1949 Leaf card.

Ted, if you could post a direct link to your OLDCARDBOARD article, I think many would appreciate it. I appreciate you keeping me straight.

Thanks, Mike

Scott Janzen

05-30-2020, 01:34 PM

I didn't want to misdirect the theme of this thread into another debate ...lol, but as it relates to the Bond Bread issue, I saw an Ebay listing this week that i thought was rather profound. It was for a 1947 Bond Bread Stan Musial (I believe) and the listing called it his "Pre-Rookie" card.

BTW...another "round corner" lot of Bond Bread, with a nice Jackie Robinson, sold for $899 this morning. With the Bond issue I have also seen several card grading companies lately that I have never heard of prior to digging into the sales of this issue.

Since many here seem to have the experience and expertise on the Bond Bread issue, have any of you actually contacted any of the card grading to clarify the issue? Unfortunately there are so many existing graded cards that likely was mis-labeled previously it would likely be a huge embarrassment to them and their so-called expertise. Again historical usage will likely prevail, unlike poor Pluto which was demoted from Planetary status, despite decades of public "knowledge". Sorry for the ramble

phikappapsi

05-30-2020, 01:53 PM

to that end; we can all agree that THIS is Robinson's real rookie card, not the yellow background Leaf issue - despite the premium and notoriety of the Leaf card.

abctoo

05-30-2020, 02:13 PM

to that end; we can all agree that THIS is Robinson's real rookie card, not the yellow background Leaf issue - despite the premium and notoriety of the Leaf card.

Joe, you're beating me to my next post. From the scan, we cannot tell if the card was a Bond Bread package insert card or from the "Sport Star Subjects" set. Some in this thread have said they purchased the "Sport Star Subjects" set in 1947, while others say it was issued in 1949. One thing is certain. The individual cards taken out of Bond Bread packages were handled by more people than cards in the "Sports Star Subjects" set and generally should show more signs of wear. We should not assume that just because a card has a white back and rounded corners that it came from a Bond Bread package.

abctoo

05-30-2020, 02:18 PM

I didn't want to misdirect the theme of this thread into another debate ...lol, but as it relates to the Bond Bread issue, I saw an Ebay listing this week that i thought was rather profound. It was for a 1947 Bond Bread Stan Musial (I believe) and the listing called it his "Pre-Rookie" card.

BTW...another "round corner" lot of Bond Bread, with a nice Jackie Robinson, sold for $899 this morning. With the Bond issue I have also seen several card grading companies lately that I have never heard of prior to digging into the sales of this issue.

Since many here seem to have the experience and expertise on the Bond Bread issue, have any of you actually contacted any of the card grading to clarify the issue? Unfortunately there are so many existing graded cards that likely was mis-labeled previously it would likely be a huge embarrassment to them and their so-called expertise. Again historical usage will likely prevail, unlike poor Pluto which was demoted from Planetary status, despite decades of public "knowledge". Sorry for the ramble

These companies make no distinction between Bond Bread issues and the cards in the "Sport Star Subjects" set. What people are buying may not be what they think it is.

abctoo

06-01-2020, 06:04 AM

. . ..
Ted, if you could post a direct link to your OLDCARDBOARD article, I think many would appreciate it.

Ted, if you do not have a direct internet link to your article on the 1949 Leaf issue, are you able to scan that article and post it here? This thread is read and quoted by many. Get your message out. While OLD CARDBOARD website is popular, its magazine is obscure and not read by many. I'd hate to see someone make another $45,000 mistake in accepting PSA's definition that the only true Jackie Robinson rookie card is the 1948 1949 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson card.

Thanks, Mike

tedzan

06-01-2020, 08:19 AM

Mike
You can contact Lyman Hardeman at Old Cardboard and he will send you a copy of Issue #9, which has my article on the 1949 LEAF set.

Also, click on my 1949 LEAF thread here on Net54 (121 interesting Posts).... https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=222952&highlight=1949+LEAF

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/large/OldCardboardnum9cover.jpg

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

abctoo

06-07-2020, 04:53 AM

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part Three (Working)

1. The 48 card set (44 baseball players and 4 boxers) inserted in 1947-1948 into Homogenized Bond Bread packages
[continued]

Characteristics {continued]:

3 Corners
a. Some with very crudely cut/die cut rounded corners (not to be confused with cards altered to make them appear as Bond Bread cards)
b. Most with distinctive die cutting, but not of the quality of playing cards

4. Size

The next scan is an example of the significant variation in the width of the Homogenized Bond Bread package insert cards. The scan after that shows that while the height of these insert cards does vary, the height variation is not as significant as with the width. The pictures are merely examples and not inclusive of all dimensional variations.

http://i.imgur.com/3UUGkNz.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/fc3oMQg.jpg?1

5. Die Cutting

The die-cutting of the corners of the Bond Bread package insert cards was done by the same manufacturer that die-cut the card corners and boxes (packages) for the “Sport Star Subjects”, the “Screen Star Subjects”, and the boxes of the W673 “Navy Ships” sets. The “Navy Ships” set is mentioned in Posts #123 (box picture) and #126 (cards in set) above. The manufacturer was not the playing card company AARCO as some have suggested. Rather, it was a bigger company founded in the Nineteenth Century that used the same die-cutting for the packages of its myriad of products sold worldwide. The die-cutting process, that company's capabilities, and involvement will be explained in the main body of the text of this article. I do not understand what the difficulty has been in identifying the manufacturer. Some of its baseball products have been listed in a variety of catalogs including the 1960 ACC.

6. Printing

Each player card was printed from several lead mold die cuts, which were replaced as each wore out. All of the die cuts used for an individual player were made from the same original screened print. Cards printed from a newly molded die cut are virtually identical. As the image on the lead mold wore down during the printing process, each individual cut would begin to show its own distinctive wear that progressively increased with its particular defeats becoming more pronounced as the printing continued until the die cut was replaced. Then everything would look “new” again, until that new cut began to wear down.

With a potential of 1,000,000 cards inserted every day into a Bond Bread package, if all 48 cards were printed at the same time rather than in series of 12 so as to leave the customers with something new to find later on, that means 20,000 of each player card would be printed for just one day's bread supply. It would take up to 4 lead molded cuts per player to print just one day's supply. If they were printed in series of 12 cards in units of 4 per sheet, then four times the amount of die cuts, or up to 12 cuts would be used to print the cards needed for just a day's supply of bread. Not enough of these cards can now be found to determine which die cut printed which individual card. However, if a defect is visible on one card and it shows up progressively worse on another card, it is not unreasonable to conclude both were printed from the same cut. With these cards, the degree of visible wear is not a sign of a reprint. Rather, wear is only indicative of where in the life of the die cut a card was printed. Again, each die cut for an individual player started out virtually identical because they were made from the same halftone print or die cast (mold).

This analysis may go against the grain of many, but one cannot expect a single printing plate was used to produce the 30,000,000 cards needed each month? The cards are not of a high quality of printing and not dissimilar to the printing techniques of a newspaper. The die cuts were locked together to create a printing plate, with individual cuts replaced as they wore.

Other types of printing defects can include “white spots” and streaks caused by a fleck of paper from the paperstock (or some other foreign material) temporarily lodging on the die cut. The spot would remain until it was dislodged by incoming paperstock, the plate, or more often by a printer whose functions included routinely wiping the plates to remove such “spots.” Cards with such “spots” can vary vastly, with spots appearing anyplace. If the stray material had lodged on a focal point of a picture, it would appear more predominate. Spots can often be exaggerated when printed from a degenerated die cut as the image being transferred may already lack the “fresh” appearance and may transfer more ink than a newly molded one.

Condition:

a. Bond Bread package insert cards were individually handled – in the factory putting them into the packages, transporting them and shelving the loaves of bread in the store. The customer took a loaf from a shelf, moved it to the cash register along with other purchases, and it was probably bagged or boxed, then transported home. There were no card sleeves around when the package was opened. Rather a card taken out of the package, and probably passed around for all to see. If you were lucky enough to have an empty cigar box or some similar container, you might have keep your cards inside. Of course, these along with other things were handed to your friends and family to see. Unless you had access to someone who could use more than one loaf at a time, each single card was a specialty by itself and properly shared with all. If there was no interest in it, it was thrown away. I know of no Homogenized Bond Bread package insert card that is pristine. Rather they are used cards, mostly not in a high grade, but of high scarcity because of what most people do with old or worn out things.

b. Contrarily, the same cards from the “Sport Star Subjects” set are found in higher grades. They came packaged, and the container could be used to “protect the cards from the normal wear and tear that Bond Bread package inserts suffered. Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as “Bond Bread” cards in a grade of “Ex” or better apparently come from the “Sport Star Subjects” set, not Bond Bread packages.

c. Bond Bread is not fancy bread and contains little fat or other ingredients that would stain a card (such as a glaze, chocolate or grease might do).

2. 1947 Team Photo Packs [continued] :

Some of the boxers and some of the action shots of baseball players in the Bond Bread package insert set and other sets were discussed elsewhere in October 2014 in net54baseball.com's thread, “1947 Bond Bread Exhibits, started by member Is7plus. There member Exhibitman posted the following 8x10 inch glossy photo of the Marcel Cerdan picture of the type appearing in the Bond Bread package insert set and on other cards.

http://i.imgur.com/yOtEClL.jpg?1

Exhibitman noted that he had “a couple dozen boxers . . . with the same font and sharing the images with some sets.” Cerdan's picture had written on it in ink, “DECEASED.” Cerdan was killed in an airplane crash on October 28, 1949 on his way to visit his friend, French singer Édith Piaf, before entering training camp for his rematch with Jake LaMotta for the middleweight championship.

Exhibitman also posted in that thread what he described as “Bob Feller from a multisport picture pack [printed, around 7 x 9]” followed by a picture of Feller which is a more complete version of the cropped Bond Bread Feller picture. Below in this appendix will be more details about such printed pictures, which are often mistakenly called “Bond Bread Premiums (6½x9 inches)” and sometimes sized at 6½x8½ inches.

Anyone who can post a scan of either the Photo Pack that contained 8x10 inch boxing cards or the multisport picture pack of the 6½-7 x 8½-9 inch printed sheets, please do so. It would help us all.

Regarding the other Bond Bread Set (the Special Jackie Robinson giveaway issue), below are scans of another ACME original photo used in that set.

http://i.imgur.com/MquGpGm.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/Vreg4Sd.jpg?1

3. A Numbered Card

About three weeks ago, I found on the internet the card shown in the scans below. Its offering merely provided a picture of the front of the card with the description: “1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Bobby Bobbie Doerr Card.” As you can see, the card is printed with the number “SH145” in the lower right front corner. It has the complete picture of Bobby Doerr that was cropped in the Bond Bread set. When it arrived, it measured 3x5 inches. Does anyone have any similarly numbered cards of any player or sport? Perhaps a list of cards in the set? Could you post scans or identify any other cards? Thanks, Mike

http://i.imgur.com/GBHyvKX.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/mSmOaaF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wT0JzcA.jpg?1

Watch for the next posting of this article.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

griffon512

06-07-2020, 10:30 AM

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

cardinalcollector

06-07-2020, 11:58 AM

The SH45 card of Bobby Doerr is a 1975 Sport Hobbyist collectors issue. They have been cataloged in the SCD catalog.

abctoo

06-07-2020, 03:34 PM

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

"Most cards with white-backs and rounded corners attributed as 'Bond Bread' cards in a grade of 'Ex' or better apparently come from the 'Sport Star Subjects' set, not Bond Bread packages."

The Bond Bread package insert cards and the Sport Star Subjects set were not issued on the same date. Right now, the market place and particularly those hyping their cards for sale and card grading services do not distinguish between them. That has caused the all of these cards to be attributed to Bond Bread. Without a distinction between the two issues, the current market price for these cards is inaccurately derived from what people think Bond Bread insert cards are worth even though they may be unwittingly buying cards from the Sport Star Subjects set. Higher or lower, each set has to find its own value in an honest marketplace based on what it is and not rumor, misdescription or the hyperbole of sellers and grading card services.

As stated in Appendix A - Part One (Working) above: "The purpose of this Appendix is not to put names on these sets. That will be done in the body of this article as its parts are posted. Rather, this Appendix is an attempt to identify all of the issues that have been attributed in someway or another as a “1947 Bond Bread “ card or set."

Appendix A - Part Three (Working), to which you responded, provided a brief description of the repeated use of initially identical molded lead die cuts derived from the same master halftone print to produce the large quantities of an individual player's cards over time and how such cuts became flawed, wore down during the printing process and were replaced. That process will be fully explained in the main text.

Part Three of this Appendix, also briefly identified the problems with attributing the voluminous quantities printed of a player's card to an individual die-cut. Details about the printing were left to the main text. The Sport Star Subject cards were printed in much smaller quantities than the Bond Bread cards. By best estimate those printings were in quantities equivalent to about one or two days supply of cards that would be needed for cards to be inserted in Bond Bread packages. [Added note: The equivalent of about 20,000 sets makes up one day's supply of bread package inserts or only about 4-5 die cuts per player per day.]

The specific wear and other flaws on the small quantity of die cuts used in the printing of the Sport Star Subjects sets can be identified so that some distinction can be made between the two sets. Otherwise, all of the cards look the same. You and anyone else can help by posting scans of cards that came from Sport Star Subjects boxes. Such detail cannot be a one person project, but must be a collaborative effort. Together, we can get to an end of this.

Griffon512, Thanks for your post,

Mike

abctoo

06-07-2020, 11:44 PM

The 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread inserts and Cards and Photos from the era with like and similar pictures.

APPENDIX A – Part Four (Working)

4. “Sport Star Subjects” 48 card set, issued in a series of 4 boxes of 12 different cards each.

Characteristics:

1. printed on one side

2. White Paper Stock, of the same low quality as the Bond Bread cards

3. Corners

a. Square, or
b. Rounded, with the same distinctive die-cut of most of the Bond Bread insert cards.

4. Size

a. The rounded cornered cards are the same size as the Bond Bread insert cards with the same distinctive die-cutting.

5. Printing

a. As with the Bond Bread insert cards, a player's picture was printed on white paperstock from molded lead die-cuts engraved from the same half-tone picture. The sharpness of the original picture molded in each lead die-cut degraded a little bit each time its raised parts transferred ink to the paper. When sufficiently deteriorated, a die-cut was replaced with another one, virtually identical to the one being replaced, except with its image not yet worn down. With hundreds of die-cuts used to print the tremendous quantity of Bond Bread cards, the insufficient supply of such cards now makes it virtually impossible to identify any particular Bond Bread insert card to a particular die-cut.

However, with only a limited number of die-cuts used to print the Sport Star Subjects set, its die-cuts can be identified from the individual wear and other printing defects shown that occurred during its printing process. High resolution scans of cards that can be assured to have come from Sport Star Subject set boxes could be compared to unidentified cards to see if the Sport Star Subjects defects are present. If yes, then the card comes from a Sport Star Subject set. Of course, such method would not be 100% accurate because the first cards printed from a new die-cut would not have the pronounced progressive printing defects of those printed later from the same die-cut.

Anyone who can provide high resolutions scans of the fronts of any Sport Star Subjects card (not Bond Bread card) are welcomed to post them here so the comparison can begin. Perhaps, a master list of Sport Star Subjects cards will evolve that will eliminate the confusion between the two sets.

6. Packages (Boxes?)

a. Four Packages of 12 cards each, the entire set issued in separate series

i. Series 1 – Green
ii. Series 2 – Red
iii. Series 3 – Brown
iv. Series 4 – Blue

b. The boxes and the cards were die-cut by the same company that die-cut the Bond Bread package insert cards.

c. The back of the package

i. Top right back of each package is printed with “No. 600” regardless of series.

http://i.imgur.com/gpNVpsw.jpg?1

ii. Initially, all of the backs of boxes I had seen were of the variety shown above. At first glance, it appeared to be a printing error as what was printed near the top left was not clearly readable. Many of us attempted to “translate” the unintelligible text. All of the boxes of the Screen Star Subjects set I had seen at that time also had the same imprinting – some gibberish with “No. 600,” the same number as the Sport Star Subjects set. Subsequently, I located a Screen Star Subjects set which made clear what the gibberish was.

http://i.imgur.com/VdWfELC.jpg?2

It was an intentional obscuring of the text “W.S. / N.Y.” shown in the scan above. The question now becomes whether the Sport Star Subjects set was likewise initially printed with the “W.S. / N.Y.” imprint or whether it started out in a package already containing the obliterated text. Anyone who can produce a scan of the front and back of a Sports Star Subjects package with the “W.S. / N.Y.” imprint is requested to do so. Right now, we can only assume the Sports Star Subjects set package was printed from artwork with the readable indicia shown on some of Screen Star Subjects packages already obliterated.

The back of the Series 2 package of the W673 Navy Ships / Airplanes set of 36 cards shown in Posts #123 and #126 above is inscribed, “A.J. WIlDMAN & SON. NEW YORK 11. N.Y.. NADE IN U.S.A., No. 1841”.

Caution: Do not attempt to draw premature conclusions from what you know about the date of issue of the Navy Ships / Airplanes set to establish a date for either the Sport Star Subjects or the Screen Star Subjects sets. It's a bit more complicated than that and will be explained in the main text.

d. Which sports cards were in which Box?

i. Few boxes have survived intact. Most of those were opened one, two or more at the time. The same cards were not necessarily returned to the box from which they came. Many collectors sorted them by team or in alphabetical order. Sheet reconstruction may help resolve the issue.

More to come.

Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521