Relative rarity of Cobb SOV 460 to BL 460, DRUM, LENOX, UZIT ? [Archive]

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03-03-2009, 07:12 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe T206 red Cobb is found with as many as 25 different backs (including the 1910 COUPON). This SOVEREIGN 460 Cobb has to be one of the toughest of all of them. Because, after almost 4 years of searching for this card to complete my all-SOVEREIGN set, I finally acquired it. And, in my 32 years of collecting BB cards, I know of only 4 of these Cobb cards. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbsov460.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> This Cobb is very, very RARE. It may very well be more scarce than the Cobb with the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco back. There are only 14 of the Ty Cobb backs known. There are only 4 of these SOVEREIGN 460 Cobb cards, that I am aware of. Let's get some POP report data on this card. I'm curious as to how many more than four have been confirmed ? This was a PSA graded card when I got it....and, since it is now in my collection, I have freed it from its plastic capsule. Mr. Cobb can now breath again <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> I appreciate any further responses regarding this particular Cobb. Also, how rare is this Red Cobb with respect to it's Broad Leaf 460, Drum, Lenox and Uzit versions ? T-Rex TED

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03-03-2009, 07:41 PM

Posted By: robert aHi Ted, Seems to me all Sovereign 460 cards are tough. I looked back on all 900+ T206 cards I've had and only two are there. Gandil and Tinker Bat On. How many Sovereign 460 cards do you have in your set? Rob

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03-03-2009, 09:19 PM

Posted By: barry arnoldcongratulations,Ted! I'm glad you were able to obtain the Cobb 460 Sov. after searching so long. It certainly is a rarity. I do think Robert is correct in underscoring the scarcity of the Sov.460 as i only have a couple out of my 520 different 206s---reminds me a bit of the scarcity of EPDGs that we discovered some 4+ years ago. I don't think this scarcity of the Sov. 460 matches the rarity of the Cobb 460 sov., however. great work! best, barry

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03-03-2009, 09:48 PM

Posted By: mark s.on finally acquiring the cobb, AND completing your sovereign 460 subset! did i have anything to do with motivating your search, and subsequent success? (that last ebay "460" listing sure disappeared in a hurry!) you recently mentioned TWO that you were aware of... have you uncovered two MORE (including yours)? since neither psa nor sgc specifically designates the series, we will have to rely upon board members for a more accurate pop report... any more sightings of this combination that ted is not already aware of?

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03-04-2009, 02:30 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks guys....the 46 (of 48) cards in the 460-only Series are sort of tough to find with Sovereign 460 backs. However, the 6 super-prints are the real tough ones and this Cobb is absolutely the toughest. ROBERT.....I think there are 404 different cards in my complete Sovereign set. And, when you add the 460 versions of the 6 super-prints, it totals 410 cards. There are a lot of No Prints in the 350 Series and of course no Southern Leaguers. I will post the exact numbers with respect to the 150-360-460 series in my next post later today, if you are interested. MARK.....One more Cobb was brought to my attention, recently. And, thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. I know of one Net54 member that has one of these Cobb's. Perhaps, a few more will res- pond with their Sovereign 460 Cobb's. Hey guys and gals show or tell us of your Red Cobb's ? Thanks again, TED Z

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03-04-2009, 06:30 AM

Posted By: JBCongrats...........

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03-04-2009, 06:37 AM

Posted By: Jim Riverasovereign 460s I currantly own 1.George Bell-follow through 2.Al Bridwell-Cap 3.Howie Camnitz-hands above 4.Hal Chase-trophy 5.Larry Doyle-portrait 6.Russ Ford 7.Harry Howell-hands at waist 8.Tom Needham 9.Billy Payne 10.Lee Tannehill 11.Zack Wheat 12.Rube Marquard-pitch

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03-04-2009, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI'm still waiting for the POP report on this SOVEREIGN 460 card. I realize it will virtually be impossible to obtain this info from PSA....but, SGC should have this data. Usually you guys are quick to report the POP data on any given card....what seems to be the problem on this one ? T-Rex TED

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03-04-2009, 01:10 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThese are the 52 Subjects that are found with the SOVEREIGN 460 back...... 460-only Series (46 cards) Abbaticcio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (follow thru) Bergen (catching) Bescher (arms in air) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Camnitz (arm at side) Camnitz (hands over head) Chance (bat) Chase (Trophy) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Doyle (portrait) Duffy Ford Frill Gandil Geyer Herzog (Boston) Howell (hand at waist) Hummel Lake (ball in hand) Latham Marquard (throwing) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove) Merkle (throwing) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Needham Oldring (bat) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schaefer (Washington) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Schulte (back view) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (follow thru) Tinker (bat on) Wheat Wiltse (portrait-cap) And, the 6 super-prints...... Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Evers (bat-yellow sky) Mathewson (dark cap) NO PRINTS...... Kleinow (Boston) Smith (Boston & Chicago) TED Z

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03-04-2009, 01:30 PM

Posted By: RedNeither PSA or SGC breaks it down to the series. PSA shows 12 that have been labeled Sovereign. There are more that would be in holders simply labeled T206 with no mention on the type of bat. How many with 460 would not be known without finding the remaining 11.

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03-04-2009, 02:00 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisSGC dates the T206's by year....a "460" backed T206 is labelled "1911" TED Z

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03-04-2009, 02:20 PM

Posted By: mark s.ted- here is the information from sgc's pop report... T206 1911 Baseball TY COBB Sovereign Cigarettes: one (10) and one (50)... total of TWO!

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03-04-2009, 06:00 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou're the man...... I know of the SGC 50 card.....so, that makes it only 5 known Sovereign 460 Cobb's. Let's see if we can get any responses regarding this Cobb from the Net54 audience. As I have said, it is very rare and I do not expect too many responses. However, if you have this Cobb....show or tells us about it ? I'm saying this Cobb is as scarce (if not more scarce) than the Ty Cobb back card ! Prove me wrong ? ? Thanks, TED Z

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03-04-2009, 06:54 PM

Posted By: RichardTed - there are a lot of Cobb Red Portraits that are as scarce or scarcer than the Cobb back.

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03-05-2009, 12:06 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisRICHARD Very good point....and, let's see here how this SOVEREIGN 460 Cobb compares wih it's BROAD LEAF 460, or DRUM, or LENOX, or UZIT versions ? So far, we have accounted for 5 red Cobb's with the Sovereign 460 back. Let's start with the POP reports of the Red Cobb with...... BROAD LEAF 460 DRUM LENOX UZIT Note....since the Red Cobb is one of the 6 super-prints it is not found with the American Beauty 460 back, and I don't think it exists with the Red HINDU back. Net54er's, let's have your inputs on what could turn out to be a very interesting survey ? Thanks Richard for making this point, TED Z

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03-05-2009, 04:49 AM

Posted By: Marc S.and sales, haven't we seen one BL 460, two Drums and three Uzits?

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03-05-2009, 05:07 AM

Posted By: Donavon ArabieTed, I can say with certainty that the Cobb Red Portrait with a Red Hindu back does indeed exist.

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03-05-2009, 05:15 AM

Posted By: leonDonavon is correct. A Red Portrait Red Hindu Cobby will be in the next REA auction. It is the only known one, from my understanding.

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03-05-2009, 05:23 AM

Posted By: Jim RiveraThis really isn't a rule but I kinda follow this. T206s are so plentiful, if you can account for 5 of a certain front/back combo, there are probably at least that many more that you don't know about and probably never will. Example -I thought I had the only known Overall/Uzit and when I got to view a hobby veterans collection he had the same combo. Also I have only seen one Slagle / Tolstoi and he also had that combo. So you can guarantee there are more out there than you can account for.

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03-05-2009, 07:33 AM

Posted By: Eric PughTed, awesome card - congrats. Not to split hairs, but you state there are 14 cobb/cobb cards; Mastro and i believe REA both claim 12 is the known number. Are you sure about that 14? I think the recognized known number is actually 12.

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03-05-2009, 08:06 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisCorrect me if my recollection is off....but, the original find of the Ty Cobb back cards was 12. Then, I heard that a 13th card had surfaced. And, the 14th card is Senator Russell's T-card collection that is on display at the Univ. of Georgia. This Ty Cobb card was discovered in his original collection....he collected these cards as a teenager in 1910-1911. TED Z

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03-05-2009, 08:43 AM

Posted By: JimBThere were six known Ty Cobb backs when Rob Lifson made his famous find of five more in 1997. One additional copy was found a few years later (I believe in Kentucky, but could be wrong in my memory of the location), bringing the total to 12. When Nagy's example came to market, some people started counting it as the 13th, but I can't imagine it was not counted by Rob among the six known back in 1997. Obviously Nagy and his collection would have been well-known in the hobby. So if the Russell copy was also not one of the pre-1997 six known, then the total would be 13. JimB

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03-05-2009, 09:03 AM

Posted By: Scott B.t206 museum lists Sov 460 rarer than Hindu, AB 460 but not as rare as CB, BF 350 etc. 1. Old Mill (Southern League - Double Overprints) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY 2. Old Mill (Southern League - Overprint) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY 3. Ty Cobb - Factory 33 - District 4 - State NC 4. Old Mill (Brown) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA 5. Broad Leaf - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA 6. Lenox (Brown) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY 7. Drum - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA 8. Uzit - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY 9. Hindu (Red) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY 10. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC 11. Blank Back 12. Lenox (Black) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY 13. Broad Leaf - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA 14. Carolina Brights - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA 15. Sovereign - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA 16. Hindu (Brown) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY 17. American Beauty - Series 460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC 18. Cycle - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA

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03-05-2009, 09:08 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for correcting me guys regarding the red HINDU red Cobb. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I stated to the contrary. At least I was correct in that same statement, that the Red Cobb (and the other 5 super-prints) were never printed with American Beauty 460 backs. TED Z

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03-05-2009, 09:12 AM

Posted By: mark s.are there any known red cobb BLANK BACKS?

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03-05-2009, 09:17 AM

Posted By: RichardCertainly these are all rarer than Cobb back: BROAD LEAF 460 DRUM BROWN LENOX UZIT RED HINDU If you want to go outside of the T206 mix for other Red Portrait Cobbs, then these are additions to the list: VICTORY RED CROSS

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03-05-2009, 09:30 AM

Posted By: Donavon ArabieLeon, That makes two Red Hindu back Cobbs. I do not know of the one coming up in REA's auction. I do, however, know of another which is owned by a friend. It has a minor spot of paper loss on the back (about half the size of a pencil eraser), but is otherwise in excellent condition. He refuses to send it in for grading, but I can vouch for it's authenticity. It was pulled from a scrapbook out of the New Orleans area back in the early 80's. I managed to get a T206 Tinker & a T213 McQuiilan-Pittsburgh from the scrapbook that after soaking were both graded PSA 4's. I hope this helps with the count. As mentioned previously, I'm sure there are more out there that we may never know about.

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03-05-2009, 09:53 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIf I understand your post....you are accounting for 4 red HINDU red Cobb's....is that correct ? TED Z

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03-05-2009, 09:53 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe T206 museum list is pretty accurate in ranking the 46 cards in the 460-only Series. However, that ranking does not reflect the 6 super-prints with Sovereign 460 backs. These 6 super-prints are in a class apart from the 460-only cards. In putting together my all-Sovereign set, I can tell you for a fact, that these 6 super-prints are much tougher than the T206 museum ranking indicates. Here's my ongoing ranking of these 6 cards with Sovereign 460 backs: Red Cobb..............Super tough Evers (yellow)........Extremely tough Chance (yellow).....very tough Chase (blue)..........very tough Chase (dark cap)....tough Matty (dark cap)....tough TED Z

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03-05-2009, 11:39 AM

Posted By: Donavon ArabieTed, No. I can only account for one. However, as Leon pointed out, there is another coming up for auction with REA. So...that makes two.

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03-05-2009, 12:04 PM

Posted By: robert aI know some of you will disagree, but I think there's something strange about comparing individual front/back combinations to the cobb/cobb back. As everyone knows, the cobb/cobb back is so sought after that every known copy has been brought to the forefront of the hobby. I'm sure if the sovereign 460 version was under the same microscope we'd see a LOT more of them. I don't think it matters how many are graded. Most of the heavy back collectors that I communicate with don't grade their T206 cards. The Cobb back is only found on a dozen or so cards altogether. It diminishes the true scarcity of those cards to compare them to one back that is found with several fronts. I agree that it is fun to compare the different backs, but T206 has silently confused many with the different series on some of the backs. Remember the thread a few years ago on SWEET CAP 350-460 SERIES 25? They're really tough and I'd love to see how many Red Cobb people have with that back. But, nobody really cares about that back. It's not a different color or design. Rob

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03-05-2009, 12:05 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe Russell collection Ty Cobb back card is apart from any of the recent finds. It was in his collection from "day one" (when he acquired as a teenager in 1910-1911). And, regarding Frank Nagy's card. I don't think his Ty Cobb card is from any recent finds. Some one here might prove me wrong on this; but, I think Frank acquired his a long time ago. I purchased many vintage cards from Frank in the 1981-1994 era. We corresponded a lot during those years; and, I was amazed at the extent of his collection and his know- ledge of vintage sportscards. So, I'm not sure I understand how you came up with 13 cards ? This might sound as nit-picking; but, my count is 12 + Frank's card + Russell's card = 14 Best regards, TED Z

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03-05-2009, 12:07 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisOK, for any Net54er's interested on expanding their T206 Cobb collections....I am displaying here all the possible SOVEREIGN backs that the four Cobb's are found with. Any other SOVEREIGN backs on these Cobb's are either repros or absolute FAKES. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcobbportsovbks.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/cobbsov350.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcobbatonsov150350.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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03-05-2009, 12:08 PM

Posted By: RedFactory 42 Piedmont 460 would be a big jump in difficulty level too.

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03-05-2009, 01:10 PM

Posted By: JimBTed, My point is that if the Nagy example is not a new find (which I think we both agree it is not), then it was counted by Rob Lifson in 1997 when his find of 5 brought the total known to 11. There has been one additional example found since then (bringing the total known to 12). Then there is the Russell copy which may be newly known/accounted for in the the hobby in recent years, bringing the total to 13. Counting the Nagy example on top of the six known in 1997 before the REA find would constitute double counting it since I believe his example was already counted among the six known. That is the only way to get to 14 IMHO. JimB

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03-05-2009, 03:16 PM

Posted By: Scott B. Does anyone has the scan of the Russell Cobb back? I remember I read somewhere someone has at least 11 images of Cobb back in his image library. Would that be easier to track down the number of Cobb back by scans rather than tracking down by names (e.g. Nagy's Cobb, Russell's Cobb etc) A side question, if Red Cobb with Sov 460 backs are rarer than Red Cobb with Cobb back, will anyone here willing to pay $60k for a Red Cobb with Sov 460 back???

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03-05-2009, 04:53 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJIM B I talked with Rob Lifson earlier today, and here is his accounting of the number of Ty Cobb back cards. Initially there were 6 cards in the 1st find. Then Rob was offered 5 more which brought it 11 cards. Then the same person he got these 5 from came up with another one to make it 12 cards. Rob confirmed what we thought regarding Frank Nagy's Cobb.....that it was independently acquired many years ago.....bringing the total to 13 cards. So, when we add Russell's card, the present total is 14 cards. SCOTT B I don't understand what the problem is with identifying these Ty Cobb cards by the person who collected them ? Furthermore, it adds a human touch and a certain provenance to the card. What does a scan really tell us about a card (other than it's visuals). Besides, scans have been known to be gimmicked-up to create a false impression. Your are kidding about this....aren't you ? " if Red Cobb with Sov 460 backs are rarer than Red Cobb with Cobb back, will anyone here willing to pay $60k for a Red Cobb with Sov 460 back??? " TED Z

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03-05-2009, 05:15 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldGo get 'em, Ted... Rarity does not equal selling price or value. Any N173 is less plentiful than a Wagner T206. Same for any T200 Premium. But the Wagner will sell for more. For me, the Cobb w/ Cobb back isn't a T206, the front's different... The Cobb w/ Cobb back is definitely a desirable card. Seems the T206 Cobb red portrait with Sov 460 back is less plentiful than the Cobb w/ Cobb back cards, whatever they are. So to me, it seems likely that the most difficult back of a T206 Cobb is the red portrait Sov 460.

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03-05-2009, 05:29 PM

Posted By: Marc S.I have never heard much of the Senator's collection. How is it that he seemingly stumbled upon all of the tough cards from T-206...Cobb/Cobb, Doyle Nat'l, etc. Doesn't it just seem odd, as such a comprehensive collection of rarities is relatively unparalleled from those collections that were put together 80-90 years ago? Marc

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03-05-2009, 06:14 PM

Posted By: Eric Pughregarding market pricing: heck, the shiny new 1 of 1's are rarer than the cobb/cobb back, but that does not change the fact that one is a museum piece and the other is well, not a museum piece. i also get the feeling the next cobb/cobb that comes to auction will sell for a record price (50k+ for a "1", 100k+ for a "2"), and the one after that will set a new record, and then after that a new record, etc etc etc., similar to the recent Wagner price records year in and year out (proportionately speaking). Just my opinion of course, but i think the museum pieces will not be affected one iota by this depression we are entering. Problem with the cobb/cobb pricing is that it's possible that not ONE comes to the market this year (unlike every other major card it seems including Wagner).

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03-05-2009, 07:04 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI have researched into Senator Russell's collection, and it's actually not so unusual that he happened to have the Joe Doyle error card and the Ty Cobb back card. I was fortunate in that I bought a bunch of Russell's duplicate T206's several years ago. His Great-Granddau- ghter was selling them. What struck me about these T206's was that they were all Piedmont 350's. It turns out that Russell was an avid BB fan and a smoker as a teenager in 1910 when he collected most of his vast collection of Tobacco cards. Early in 1910 the 350 Series of T206's was available in the Piedmont cigarette packs. We know that the Doyle error card was inserted in a few of the very early Piedmont packs in 1910. So, the probability of Russell getting this card was really not that unusual. Now, for the Ty Cobb back card......Russell grew up in a little farming town just northwest of Atlanta. It has recently come to our attention that the Ty Cobb (pipe) Smoking Tobacco was reported in several newspapers in 1910. So, here again, the timing and the region were perfect for Russell to have acquired this card in his youth. Russell's T206 (near complete) set consists of 497 cards. No Magie, or Plank, or Wagner. Simply because these cards were issued in 1909 (before he started collecting). His collection also consists of many T210 (Old Mill) cards that were popular down South in 1910. Hope this explanation helps you....you can see this collection at the Univ. Georgia. TED Z

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03-05-2009, 07:07 PM

Posted By: JimBSo why if Frank Nagy's Cobb back was acquired many years ago did Rob not count it among known examples in 1997 when he reported the total (including the find of 5) at 11? JimB

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03-05-2009, 08:51 PM

Posted By: Richard"So to me, it seems likely that the most difficult back of a T206 Cobb is the red portrait Sov 460." No, Frank. The red portrait Cobb Sovereign 460 may be rarer than a "Ty Cobb" back, but all of these are rarer than a Sovereign 460: BROAD LEAF 460 DRUM BROWN LENOX UZIT RED HINDU VICTORY RED CROSS

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03-05-2009, 08:55 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldRichard, I understand your point and the problem with what I posted up there. But neither Victory nor Red Cross are white border T206 tobacco cards. So what you have is a bit lacking, too...

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03-05-2009, 09:08 PM

Posted By: RichardSorry, you are right. Just cut and pasted from an above post. If we were discussing all red portrait Ty Cobb cards in general, however, they would clearly make the list.

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03-06-2009, 01:03 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisDon't forget the 1910 COUPON card of Cobb's red portrait. Otherwise, referred to as a T213-1....but now, the secret is out....it really is a white border T206 card <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> TED Z

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03-06-2009, 06:19 AM

Posted By: RichardTed - I don't think that the type 1 Coupon has a population, graded and ungraded, anywhere near that of Cobb back. As in many multiples higher. It should not be included in the rarity discussion above, imho.

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03-06-2009, 07:44 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWhat does "population" have to do with anything ? This card should be included in this mix...... The Red Cobb portrait is the "signature" picture card of the American Lithographic Co. They printed this image on 25 different American Tobacco Co. (ATC) advertising backs of the T206 series. And, subsequently, in the following ATC issues...... Coupon Type 2 Coupon Type 3 Red Cross Victory <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/1910couponcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Did I leave out any other ATC issues that this image appears in ? TED Z

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03-06-2009, 09:30 AM

Posted By: dstudebaPopulation, as in the number of cards, has everything to do with rarity which is this whole discussion. I agree with the posters above who say that there are probably many of these cards that we don't know about. I will add that there are probably Red Cobb Sovereign owners who aren't aware that they have this rarity. If I had one I wouldn't know the difference, whereas if I had a Cobb back I would know.

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03-06-2009, 09:32 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanIs the red cobb portrait available in t215 pirate?

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03-06-2009, 10:09 AM

Posted By: RichardPeter - I do not believe any T215 Pirate Cobb has been found to date, although many have speculated that it could exist. Ted - I do not quite understand your question about what "population" has to do with anything. As Dan said, population is everything. You are trying to verify if any more than 4 Sov 460s exist. There is discussion if there are 12, 13 or 14 Ty Cobb backed cards that exist. This is all about population and rarity. We are not talking about graded population. Just population. That is the whole point of your thread. As for T213s, I do not believe any of the 3 issues should be considered in this rarity discussion (single digit population). Clearly Type 1 is the toughest of the 3 series, but I have owned 2 examples myself. They are not in the ballpark.

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03-06-2009, 10:53 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisA couple of posts above you responded to my inclusion of the 1910 COUPON Cobb to this discussion with...... "Ted - I don't think that the type 1 Coupon has a population, graded and ungraded, anywhere near that of Cobb back." Hey guys, I was specifically referring to this comment, not the general use of the word "population" as applied to BB cards. You have taken what I said out of context....perhaps, you clicked onto the "Bottom of page" link and didn't read the prior posts. In any event, Richard you've owned two COUPON Type 1 Cobb's; and, I know of two more. So, we have accoun- ted for at least 4 such Cobb's. Is that a "population", or what ? TED Z

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03-06-2009, 11:07 AM

Posted By: dstudebaI read all of the posts in this thread, I do not believe I took anything out of context.

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03-06-2009, 11:19 AM

Posted By: RichardTed - I reread all of the posts as well and don't quite see how I took you out of context. I have seen probably close to a dozen Type 1 Coupon Red Port Cobbs over the last 4-5 years. I do not believe that this puts this issue in the ballpark of the other really tough Red Port Cobb backs that we are discussing.

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03-06-2009, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI was not referring to you with that comment. We've had some good discussions on this forum over the years....do not mistake my argumentative comments with you in this thread. I guess I am one of those, who firmly believe that the 1910 COUPON (type 1) issue get's no respect as an integral part of the T206 set. My research indicates that it is the 16th basic T-brand printed by American Litho. This scan illustrates this fact better than any words can...... <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/at206quintuplicatedesign.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> The T206 Subjects on the front of these 5 backs were printed and issued in the Summer of 1910 (first American Beauty) thru to the Fall of 1910. DRUM might have been late in 1910. Best regards to you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> TED Z

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03-06-2009, 12:15 PM

Posted By: JimBTed, You must mean the 17th brand, right? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif"> JimB

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03-06-2009, 01:07 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou wouldn't be alluding to this guy....would you ? <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/acobbtycobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bcobbtycobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Hey guy, now we know he's circa 1910....could be....or should be the 17th T-brand <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> T-Rex TED

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03-06-2009, 01:16 PM

Posted By: leonNice T213-1 Coupon you showed. Jefferson would be proud of you!!

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03-06-2009, 02:04 PM

Posted By: Donavon ArabieSince there are so many Type 1 Coupon Cobb Red Portraits, anyone know of a decent one for sell? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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03-06-2009, 02:19 PM

Posted By: RichardTed - No worries. We do have some good passionate discussions. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> You will find no argument from me about the T213-1 being part of the T206 set. At the end of the day, what is included and not included under the T206 umbrella matters most to only T206 collectors. It also has a huge impact on valuation, as a "rarity" under the T206 umbrella is simply a rarity when compared to the rest of the mostly mass produced issue. Take any of those rarities out from under the umbrella and their rarity disappears and their valuation along with it. However, the argument could work the other way as well. If you were to break out your Sovereign 460 subset from under the T206 umbrella and give it its own independent ACC number, then maybe your Cobb Red Port would not get lost in the "just another back" shuffle and get the respect it deserves, along with the valuation is deserves as well.

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03-06-2009, 03:54 PM

Posted By: robert aRichard, The Coupon type 1 is under the T206 umbrella. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> I would say that the T213 type 1 Cobb is very difficult to find. I'm not sure where I was when you saw a dozen type 1 cobbs over the past few years?? Sure they weren't the same few cards selling over and over? I think you're exaggerating! By the way, where do you find all these cards? Anyways, I think Ted made his point well. The T206 Cobb Red with Sovereign 460 back is a lot harder than we thought. Again, I'd be willing to bet that the Sweet Cap 350-460 fact. 25 Ty Cobb Red Portrait is VERY uncommon too, but nobody cares. It's not sexy enough. Good conversation guys! It's nice to hear banter about cards. Rob

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03-06-2009, 06:05 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI don't do POP reports, but I do my own surveys. Check-out this Red Cobb survey, I think it will confirm what you just said regarding the Sweet Cap 460/25 card...... T206 Cobb (red portrait) 14....OLD MILL 35....PIEDMONT 350 42....POLAR BEAR 5.....SOVEREIGN 350 10....SWEET CAP 350 12....PIEDMONT 460/25 1.....PIEDMONT 460/42 1.....SOVEREIGN 460 2.....SWEET CAP 460/25 8.....SWEET CAP 460/30 5.....ALL OTHER BACKS TED Z

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03-06-2009, 06:35 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI started this thread speaking about having completed my all-SOVEREIGN set. If anyone here wants to try this adventure, I have done all the "heavy ground work". So, sit back and go for it. You don't need the "Big Six" or the 48 Southern Leaguers. Here's the break-down of the cards you will need in each series...... # of cards....SERIES 151..............150 (no Lundgren, Magie, Plank, Wagner & Jennings has a Sov 350 back) 204..............350 (66 No Prints) ..46..............460 [no Kleinow (Boston) or Smith (Boston & Chi)] ...6..............460 (6 super-prints) ---- 407 total Enjoy the challenge, it is probably the most affordable of the major T-brand sub-sets. TED Z

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03-06-2009, 06:37 PM

Posted By: Donavon ArabieThe following are excerpts of the only T213-1 Cobb Red Portrait that I have seen for auction in the last 10 years (REA-2006). I do not believe it to be as "populated" as some have stated. I have actively been searching for one for years now. "We believe that the T213-1 of Ty Cobb is just as rare (or possibly even rarer) than the legendary T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb Tobacco back. The Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back card, of course, is one of card collecting's most famous and valuable tobacco cards, while the T213-1 Cobb is a little known and somewhat exotic rarity. The similarities of the T213-1 Coupon Cigarettes of Ty Cobb to its T206 counterpart, however, are great, and a reasonable case can also be made that the T213-1 Coupon set can lay far better claim to being a part of the T206 series than the legendary Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back card." "Over the years Robert Edward Auctions has handled the sale of eight of the approximately twelve known examples of T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb Back cards. This is the first example of the T213-1 Ty Cobb card that we can recall ever offering." Again...if you know of one for sale or trade, please email me.

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03-06-2009, 09:13 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldSo where does all of this leave us??? A Cobb red portrait T206 Sov 460 is a difficult card to locate. It is found less often than a T206 card with a BL 460, Drum, Lenox or Uzit back (that being any T206 with that particular back). It is found more often than a Cobb red portrait with a BL 460, Drum, Lenox or Uzit back. Red Cross, Victory, Ty Cobb, and Coupon are not generally accepted T206 backs, they are backs for cards belonging elsewhere. (I understand some folks think the Ty Cobb back belongs in T206, I don't, the cards have glossy fronts, inconsistent with T206s. And I think Mr. Burdick had sound reasons for separating Coupons off to themselves, what Jefferson Burdick has put asunder, let no collector reunite.) And it is quite interesting to contemplate the timeline of when American Litho printed (and when tobacco companies distributed) red portrait Cobb cards across all of the brands.

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03-07-2009, 07:53 AM

Posted By: AnonymousDOUBLE POST

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03-07-2009, 07:54 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThis last statement of your's is an excellent one, and worthy of a response...... "And it is quite interesting to contemplate the timeline of when American Litho printed (and when tobacco companies distributed) red portrait Cobb cards across all of the brands." Here goes, and I hope Scot Reader chimes in here....if my timeline is off-base. This timeline applies to the Red portrait Cobb. ......................350-only Series............................................ .....460 extension of 350 Series Winter 1909......Spring 1910......Summer 1910............Fall 1910........Winter 1910/Spring 1911 Piedmont Sweet Cap........Sovereign.......American Beauty........Broad Leaf..............Sovereign 460 EPDG..................Old Mill...............Cycle...................Coupon. ...............Piedmont 460 .............................................Ty Cobb back............Drum...................Sweet Cap 460 ..............................................Pola r Bear..........................................Leno x, Uzit ...............................................Tol stoi..............Carolina Brights...........Red Hindu .................................................. .................................................. .Broad Leaf 460 Hope this provides you a realistic timeline.....it may be subject to minor adjustment, TED Z

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03-07-2009, 08:12 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldGreat, Ted. Now please add to that chronology the Victory, Red Cross, and Ty Cobb backed red portrait Cobb cards. Make it a chronology of American Litho Cobb red portrait cards. I see you sneaked Coupon in there in the fall of 1910, I'd have thought winter, but would not have included it in a T206 only listing. I'm thinking Victory is winter 1910, Red Cross winter 1910, and Ty Cobb back spring of 1911 (because it seems a bit of an 'afterthought' card, slick front and all).

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03-07-2009, 08:17 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanThanks to all. What I'd love to see is a spreadsheet breaking down T206 by backs so a collector could see every possible back front combo and decide perhaps on doing a brand set on that basis. And FWIW, T213-1 sure looks like a T206 back, but couldn't it also be a result of laziness on the part of the designers ("Hey, that old design looks fine; let's just reuse it.")? Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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03-07-2009, 08:25 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNote that I have included the Ty Cobb backed card in the Summer of 1910. I based this date on the recent find of newspaper clippings announcing the Ty Cobb (pipe) Smoking Tobacco (dated mid-1910). TED Z

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03-07-2009, 08:30 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldI now see that... So where would you put Victory and Red Cross backed Cobb red portrait cards?

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03-07-2009, 08:54 AM

Posted By: RichardTed - That is fantastic information. All of this should be hard documented. Seriously.

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03-07-2009, 09:33 AM

Posted By: mark s.sir ted- wow... yet another sample of your exquisite work! thank you for sharing this with us. i am curious why you placed polar bear as late (summer '10) in the sequence as you did... if pb red cobbs are amongst the MOST common, wouldn't it be logical that they were originally distributed at approximately the same time (fall '09) as the other most common examples (p 350 & sc 350)?

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03-07-2009, 01:46 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI place the initial POLAR BEAR release sometime between May to June of 1910. And, the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) are the determining factors for this. Neither NY variations are found with POLAR BEAR backs. But, we know that both St. Louis variations only exist with POLAR BEAR backs. Both Demmitt and O'Hara started the 1910 season with their respective St. Louis teams. By May 1910, both were sent down to the Eastern (AAA) League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to his hometown team, Toronto. Due to their Minor League re-assignment, these two St Louis variation cards were short- printed by American Litho.....and, that is why these two T206 Subjects are big $$$$. TED Z

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03-07-2009, 07:03 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisPer your request, I have added the T215 Red Cross (Type 1) red Cobb to this Timeline. The T215 (Type 2), the T213 (Type 2 & 3) and the Victory (T214) red Cobb's were issued beyond the scope of this Timeline (1912-1915). This timeline applies to the Red portrait Cobb. ......................350-only Series............................................ .....460 extension of 350 Series Winter 1909......Spring 1910......Summer 1910............Fall 1910........Winter 1910/Spring 1911 Piedmont EPDG................Sovereign.......American Beauty........Broad Leaf..............Sovereign 460 Sweet Cap..........Old Mill...............Cycle...................Coupon. ...............Piedmont 460 .............................................Ty Cobb back............Drum...................Sweet Cap 460 ..............................................Pola r Bear..........................................Leno x, Uzit ...............................................Tol stoi..............Carolina Brights...........Red Hindu .................................................. .................................................. .Broad Leaf 460 .................................................. .................................................. .Red Cross (Type 1) I dated the Red Cross (Type 1) in very late 1910 to early 1911 because many of the Subjects in this set are also in the T206 350/460 Series. TED Z

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03-08-2009, 02:59 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisDid I leave out any other Red Cobb Tobacco issues on this Timeline ? You've got me doing "overtime" homework here.....anyhow, it's a labor of love <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Perhaps, I'll expand this timeline further into 1911 to include more of the 460 Series T-backs. TED Z

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03-08-2009, 03:09 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldThank you, Ted!! I think that it would be enlightening to carry the timeline on into 1912... add Victory, and the other later type cards of Coupon and Red Cross if they used the Cobb red portrait. What you said up there, or somewhere, about Cobb's red portrait being the most used card image is significant, I think. FW And have a big time at the show next week!! Hope you sell piles of stuff, so Brinks has to escort you home.

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03-09-2009, 11:21 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisResponding to your comment...... "What you said up there, or somewhere, about Cobb's red portrait being the most used card image is significant, I think." I think you are alluding to my dubbing of the Red Cobb portrait as American Lithographic's "signature picture"..... in their baseball card Tobacco issues. And, indeed it is.....he Red Cobb is all over the place. I count 24 different T-backs just in the T206 issue. Then we have the COUPON, the Red Cross, and the Victory issues. And, of course the Ty Cobb (pipe) Smoking Tobacco card. Any more out there ? Yes, even the some of the Caramel Co. issues depict this red portrait Cobb. The Williams Caramel (E103) comes to my mind. TED Z