Chief Bender Cabinet Card? [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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02-26-2009, 04:58 PM

Posted By: phil garryI would like to ask for everyone's input in determining if the below cabinet card indeed pictures Chief Bender. I haved also included the ebay listing where I picked this card up from so that you can view the seller's description. <img src="http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/bcbgcbrcb/CBender.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Seller: the714gallery( 1265) Feedback: 100 % Positive Member: since Nov-07-03 in United States See detailed feedback Ask seller a question Add to Favorite Sellers View seller's other items: Store | List Visit seller's Store: The714Gallery Contact the seller instantly Buy safely 1. Check the seller's reputation Score: 1265 | 100% Positive See detailed feedback 2. Check how you're protected Description Item Specifics - Sports Trading Cards Original/Reprint: Original Card Attributes: -- Product: Single Sport: Baseball-MLB Professionally Graded: No Year/Season: 1900 Card Manufacturer: -- The714Gallery Visit my eBay Store:The714Gallery Add to Favorite Stores | Sign up for Store newsletter Chief Bender Cabinet Card Original c.1900 Pre Rookie This 5 1/4" X 6 1/2" card is of a 17 year old Chief Bender and an unknown catcher circa 1901 playing for the Carlisle Indian Industrial School team, just 2 years before he signed to play with Connie Mack's Philadelphia Athletics. Came from an original private collection which featured all Indian heritage players from the 1800's and early 1900's. The earliest image of Chief Bender (Charles Albert Bender) to exist and an extremely rare image - which is stronger than our scan with the original cabinet backing in superb condition with no tears or markings. With large populations of Bender tobacco cards available for $2,500 to $5,000 and up, we believe this item be much more rare and an item for the true collector - and have priced the item accordingly - we rate this item a strong 5+. We guarantee this item to be 100% original - so buy with confidence. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bender Bio After graduating from Carlisle Indian Industrial School, Bender went on to a stellar career as a starting pitcher from 1903 to 1917, primarily with Connie Mack's Philadelphia Athletics (though with stints at the end of his career with the Baltimore Terrapins of the short-lived Federal League, the Philadelphia Phillies, and the Chicago White Sox). Over his career, his win-loss record was 212-127, for a .625 winning percentage (a category in which he would lead the American League in three seasons). His talent was even more noticeable in the high-pressure environment of the World Series: in five trips to the championship series, he managed six wins and a 2.44 ERA. In the 1911 Series, he pitched three complete games, which set the record for most complete games pitched in a six-game series. He also threw a no-hitter in 1910. Bender was voted into the Hall of Fame in 1953, less than one year before his death. In 1981, Lawrence Ritter and Donald Honig included him in their book The 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All Time. __________________________________________________ ____________________________ PAYPAL AND CREDIT CARDS ACCEPTED FOR THIS AUCTION. BID WITH CONFIDENCE AS WE HAVE OVER 2000+ POSITIVE EBAY RATINGS. Payment due at auction close. edited out some spaces

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02-26-2009, 05:11 PM

Posted By: Bobby Bindersorry

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02-26-2009, 05:32 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaDoes not look like Bender to me...and the guy in your photo is wearing a jersey for an "Athletic Club"...not something I've ever seen for the Carlisle School.

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02-26-2009, 05:40 PM

Posted By: barrysloatePhil- I've been staring at this photo for a little while now, and I am having trouble finding any resemblance to Bender. I hate these descriptions that identify a player with such certainty, when in fact there is such a strong possibility it is wrong.

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02-26-2009, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCheck the ears. This is not Chief Bender.

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02-26-2009, 06:02 PM

Posted By: sporteqIMO .. he sells some suspicious items. He currently has a 1915 Babe Ruth pitching photo .. AS you know, it has the AP logo on the photo which indicates it`s from 1935 when AP wire started putting logs in photos. He states the photo is from 1915 era not good!! I think them Cooperstown Archive photos look kinda scary too .. i don`t believe there period photo as he claims. Not saying he`s a bad seller .. he might not just be aware of the items history etc.

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02-26-2009, 06:07 PM

Posted By: George HCYou just got punk'd!

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02-27-2009, 10:06 AM

Posted By: bmarloweAs noted above - always check the ears. If the photo is clear enough, this is absolutely the best way to check indentity. - This cannot possibly be Bender.

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02-27-2009, 10:42 AM

Posted By: Mark TYou paid a lot for the photo...since the seller claimed many times in the description it is Bender then you have the right to a refund.

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02-27-2009, 10:55 AM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIf it's not the person it's represented to to be, it's a fake. The definition of fake isn't dependent on seller's intent, just that representation of the item is majorly different from what what the item really is. Some fakery can be intentional, some can be innocent. That an item is majorly misidentified is justification enough for return/refund. The definition of forgery, on the other hand, involves intent, made with the intent to deceive. This is why, when in doubt of the seller's intent and knowledge, you publicly call a fake a fake, not a forgery. Duly note that a fake isn't defined just by what it is, but by what it is versus what it's labeled as. If you label a T206 reprint a T206 reprint it's not a fake. The true identity and label match. It's when you label the same card as an original that it's a fake. Also note that fake applies to when the identify is majorly misidentified, a crisis in identity. If a 1915 Ty Cobb Photo is called 1913, or a 1971 Topps is called a 1971 Topps but misgraded, those don't fall into the fake category. The identification of these two items was largely and essentially accurate, but some details were off. Though in the case of the 1971 Topps, the off detail may be justify for refund.

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02-27-2009, 11:05 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThe ears are the fingerprints of facial recognition...no two ears are alike. In this case the ears of Bender and the ears of the fellow pictured above couldn't be more different. Phil I hope you haven't paid for the photo yet...and if you have, you have a clear case to get a full refund here. The burden is on this seller to prove that it is Bender and he does nothing of the sort with his description. He must show some proof that it's Bender. ...personally I'd like to hear an explanation why the guy is wearing an Athletic Club uniform and he says it's a photo of Bender in his Carlisle School uniform. I took a look at his other auctions and some of his titles and descriptions are quite dubious.

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02-27-2009, 12:19 PM

Posted By: bmarloweDan could not more correct. I wrote an article that covered this in the 2008 SABR National Pastime as well as a column early last year for the SABR Pictorial History Committee (pardon the shameless self promotion).

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02-27-2009, 12:31 PM

Posted By: leonYou can set up your avatar in the account information on yourself. There is a tab that says "personal photo" and that is where you do it. best regards

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02-27-2009, 01:39 PM

Posted By: David AtkatzMaybe the catcher is Bender. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif">

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02-27-2009, 02:24 PM

Posted By: dennismaybe the seller used this e91 to id the picture as bender. <a href="http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l239/dcc1/?action=view&current=chbender09_p3.jpg" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l239/dcc1/chbender09_p3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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02-27-2009, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Phil GarryThanks for all of your input, everyone. I did pay for the item already via paypal using my credit card and have already e-mailed the seller asking for a full refund. If they do not provide one, I will do a chargeback through my credit card company and/or paypal.

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02-27-2009, 03:12 PM

Posted By: JudgeDred2Wow, Phil I sure hope you can recoup. I read all the comments - great stuff. Dennis.... hahahahahaha... that made my day...!

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02-27-2009, 08:49 PM

Posted By: Bill Cornell<img src="http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1979/211/26/555865904/n555865904_1395909_4785.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Now, that is Chief Bender with a bat.

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02-27-2009, 09:47 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe funny thing is the guy in the cabinet has a resemblance to Home Run Baker.

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02-28-2009, 05:37 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanMy question is how do you buy this photo when the guy in the photo does not even resemble Chief Bender? There are so many photos of Bender on the web for you to compare to. I understand Dan's point with the ears but the guy's face does not even compare to Bender's features. Also it is interesting that he is holding the bat with a Ty Cobb like split grip.

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02-28-2009, 06:10 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieI don't have 18 year old eyes so cut me some slack right off the bat but I think this cabinet does resemeble Bender a bitI can't see enough details in the ear to use that as a determination. The seller states this is a young 17 year old bender.. I certainly am not expert enough to say 'NO WAY IN HELL'. I got a big 24 inch monitor so PLEASE tell me my eyes are NOT that bad.. <img height="14" alt="happy.gif" src="/images/happy.gif" width="14"> The seller also states this cabinet came from a private collection, perhaps you can gain more info from the original collector..I can see the resemblence.. tell me i'm not going blind.. <img height="14" alt="happy.gif" src="/images/happy.gif" width="14"><img alt="bender.jpg" src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1235830524.JPG"> marty

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02-28-2009, 06:37 AM

Posted By: leonIt looks like Bender to me...

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02-28-2009, 06:45 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldI've just looked at Marty's 4 person photo... and I've not checked other photos, but it looks like Bender on the left, Joss standing in the middle, Waddell seated in the middle... who's to the right?? Anyone else think that's Joss and Waddell?? Ear experts? I've come back to edit this after the identification was posted below, to say that Plank is what I intended, not Joss. I knew that wasn't Joss. Those are Mr. Mack's players... And I wouldn't have identified Coakley.

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02-28-2009, 06:46 AM

Posted By: Mark LIt's hard to say. Are the initials on the uni supposed to show that he is playing for the Carlisle Indian Academy? Perhaps the Indian Academe de Carlisle? Lacking some further evidence, I am a skeptic. Marty, nice photo! Who is the guy on the right? Andy Coakley?

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02-28-2009, 06:48 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanNow that is Chief Bender or a sunt double. Also the gentleman standing in the middle looks alot like Eddie Plank, my guess is that it is Eddie Plank.

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02-28-2009, 06:52 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieTo claify, the 4 person photo is not mine. It's just one I found on Google Images. The photo is of the 1905 Philadelphia A's pitching staff; Bender, Plank, Waddell and Coakley. It's the earliest photo of Chief Bender I could find and using it as a refernce to Phil's cabinet photo, I think there is a resemblence.. at least it does to me! <img height="14" alt="happy.gif" src="/images/happy.gif" width="14"> marty

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02-28-2009, 06:54 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanMarty...is the man standing in the middle Eddie Plank?

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02-28-2009, 06:54 AM

Posted By: JDRUMI'm with Marshall, that's Plank in the middle with Bender and Waddell. No id on the fourth.

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02-28-2009, 06:59 AM

Posted By: barrysloateUnquestionably Bender, Waddell, and Plank, with the guy on the right in fact Coakley. Could someone put the cabinet card next to the oval photo for comparison. My opinion is it is two different people.

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02-28-2009, 07:00 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelviePer the Philadelphiaathletics.org web site;<img alt="bender.jpg" src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1235830524.JPG"> From bottom to Center: Rube Waddell, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, and Andy Coakley.marty

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02-28-2009, 07:08 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI knew it had to be Plank. What a great photo.

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02-28-2009, 07:19 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanThe guy in the cabinet photo does not even look indian to me so no way it is Chief Bender. By the way he is holding the bat my guess is he was not a pitcher either.

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02-28-2009, 07:23 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieThe best I could do;<img alt="CBender.jpg" src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1235834600.JPG"> I think it could go either way.marty

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02-28-2009, 07:34 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanThe guy in the cabinet photo has a different ear. It looks like the bottom of his ear is actually attached to the side of his head where Chief Bender's ear is cleary different. I would not want that cabinet card hoping it would turn out to be chief Bender. Marty....i am wondering if someone spiked your coffee this morning (-:

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02-28-2009, 07:40 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIt's only a very slight resemblance, and almost certainly two different people. This kind of careless photo identification, where the owner hopes he has struck gold by finding a famous player, has been going on as long as I can remember.

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02-28-2009, 07:41 AM

Posted By: Phil GarryFurther research has uncovered that Bender spent some time in 1902 playing for a semi-pro Harrisburg Athletic Club team. From there, he was signed by Connie Mack's A's and began his Major League career with them the following year, 1903.

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02-28-2009, 07:52 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanOk boys the Mirage in Vegas now has the odds board up. 1-1 it is not Bender 100-1 it is Bender.

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02-28-2009, 08:01 AM

Posted By: Mark LI think you've definitely got a photo of someone who might be Chief Bender.

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02-28-2009, 08:08 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMarshall- I'll take the 1 to 1.

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02-28-2009, 08:10 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeNo way Bender, maybe a chief though <img src="" alt="<span">www.danmckee.com/pictures/types001.jpg>

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02-28-2009, 08:12 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieMarshall, if someone had spiked my coffee I could probably see better! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">I know what you mean about the ears but I just can't see his ear clearly enough in the cabinet photo to say for sure. The mouth is really freaky to me... lots of folks can have similar mouths so that's probably not a big deal but its almost an identical type of frown. It's probably not Bender, but I wouldn't bet 100-1. perhaps 5-1. marty

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02-28-2009, 09:31 AM

Posted By: bmarloweThis discussion is a good example of religion vs science. It doesn't matter if he resemble Bender or not. It isn't Bender because the ears don't match. There is substantial scinetific literature on this issue. This is used in criminal investigation and other areas of security,including intelligence. If the cabinet card was a shot of a 7-11 robbery from a security camera - if they charged Bender, the case would not even get to court. I understand Marty's problem with clearly seeing the ears - I will try to post some images that show this as clearly as possible. Marshall has it dead on the money. If anyone wants to read some published articles on this with respect to old baseball photos - email me.

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02-28-2009, 09:38 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanWell Barry you were the only taker at 1-1 and the Mirage is ready to give you your prize. A all expenses paid trip to the nearest Chuck E Cheese. I am suprised though that anyone could buy this card thinking it is Chief Bender, my photograph collectors would rip that cabinet card to shreads if i tried to sell it as Bender. Photography buyers are very keen in regards to likeness of the person. This cabinet card was not even close. I still say the guy is not even Indian. I have to admit that i love the split grip on the bat. Just the way he is standing i am going to say he was a outfielder. What would be fantastic is if we could find more about the team and actually the guy, kind of like our own Network 54 CSI case. Solve the mystery man who was sold as Chief Bender.

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02-28-2009, 10:14 AM

Posted By: S GrossI don't know .......... the guy in the catchers mask, he kinda' looks like Bender (although ears are unclear).

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02-28-2009, 11:23 AM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe problem with religion in photo identification is the bidders have to belong to the same religion. One thing to remember is that in you high school you probably had someone who resembled someone famous. If you go through five thousand tintypes and a give thousand cabinet cards, you will come across nobodies who resemble famous people. One detail that sticks out to me is how does the seller account with that the letters on the jersey don't align with a Carlisle Indian School identification. It's like saying a photo shows Red Grange in college, when they jersey says UM (Grange went to University of Illinois, for those who don't know).

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02-28-2009, 01:31 PM

Posted By: CoreyRSh.anusConclusion: almost certainly not Bender Moral to the Story (based on many years of experience): unless the photo ID absolutely, positively, conclusively, definitively screams out it is the guy you are hoping it is (in which case without further compelling corroborating evidence you probably would have at best a 50% shot it is that guy), you're wasting your time going further without that other compelling corroborating evidence/provenance. In the case at hand, the photo ID IMO doesn't match up and there is no other compelling corroborating evidence/provenance. Sorry.

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03-01-2009, 09:02 AM

Posted By: sporteq.... the update on this!?! Hope you got your money back .. also curious as to what the seller had to say!! best of luck, al

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03-01-2009, 09:21 AM

Posted By: Phil GarryAn employee from the seller's company promised a response by Monday morning (tomorrow). I'll let everyone know what happens. Thanks again for the input everybody!

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03-01-2009, 11:31 AM

Posted By: Richard L.Visiting from the non-sport forum side, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Does this draw any red flags? First link the714gallery sold this item and the second link the714gallery purchased the item. Original seller b-e-collectibles, clearly states "affordable alternative" and "replicated". But when the714gallery sold the ring, no mention of this! <a href="http://tinyurl.com/csb2gt" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/csb2gt</a> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ddm279" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/ddm279</a>

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03-01-2009, 11:45 AM

Posted By: dennisthey also have some fake 206's at outrageous prices. edited to add their return policy: All Sales Are Final And All Items Are Sold As Is

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03-01-2009, 02:17 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWOW! Good luck getting your money back Phil.

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03-01-2009, 04:10 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanWhoaaaaa....someone paid 1700 for that ring. Whoever bought that is not going to be able to walk for weeks after that deal.

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03-01-2009, 05:42 PM

Posted By: dennis.......or at least walk with a limp

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03-03-2009, 03:55 PM

Posted By: fkwThe only thing that makes it look like Bender is the hat, similar to the A's hats of the early 1900s. The batter looks caucasian and the ears are not even close.

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03-04-2009, 12:37 PM

Posted By: LeeGiven the position of the head in the cabinet, there is no proper way to make a call using the ears. The chin, nose and eyes are a dead on for an early Bender I own, and even one of his early cards is awfully close. I have many a rookie or pre-rookie photo of various players that have striking differences - look at the Ruth rookie card versus a 1933 Goudey of Ruth and unless we all knew Ruth the way we do, there is very little similarity. Having said that, maybe the seller will give you your money back as they appear to have a great history and a lot of happy feedback customers. Let us know how it turns out.

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03-04-2009, 12:48 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaUh Lee....your email address leads straight to the 714 Gallery's website. How about YOU tell us how it's going to turn out.

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03-04-2009, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Anthony S.I'm pretty sure that just made my day, Dan.

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03-04-2009, 12:55 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf Dan is correct- and I assume he is- that is pretty low.

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03-04-2009, 12:55 PM

Posted By: leontechnicalities technicalities....

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03-04-2009, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaLee's email address is info@cornerstonearchives.com check out the website: <a href="http://www.cornerstonearchives.com" target="_new">http://www.cornerstonearchives.com</a>/ I'm posting this in case Lee decides to edit this info.

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03-04-2009, 01:01 PM

Posted By: bmarlowe>>>Given the position of the head in the cabinet, there is no proper way to make a call using the ears.... Lee - you have no idea what you are talking about. All you need is an actual Bender from a similar angle. Anyway - when Phil returns it you can buy it....uh wait a minute. When Phil returns it you'll already have it.

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03-04-2009, 01:15 PM

Posted By: RedFrom Jan 06 Sporting life, in pdf and you can zoom in. Mentions athletic club. Doesn't look like him based on Sporting Life picture. <a href="http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1906/VOL_46_NO_19/SL4619005.pdf" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1906/VOL_46_NO_19/SL4619005.pdf</a>

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03-04-2009, 01:39 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayHow do you connect Cornerstone to 714 Gallery or am I missing something?

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03-04-2009, 01:48 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWow...it looks like Lee is the webmaster for the cornerstone site as well. He has removed the "714 Gallery" from the cornerstone website. Check out this cached shot of his website: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/c95g8g" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/c95g8g</a>

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03-04-2009, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Anthony S.<img src="http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q82/boboinnes/weasel.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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03-04-2009, 02:03 PM

Posted By: bmarloweAnthony - those ears look more like those of the real Bender than do the ears in the cabinet photo.

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03-04-2009, 02:06 PM

Posted By: JohnnyHNo it is Bender, as in bender over and take it........

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03-04-2009, 02:06 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaPre-rookie photograph of Don Mossi. $899 shipped. Paypal preferred. <img src="http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2007/shah_rach/AfricanElephant111.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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03-04-2009, 02:10 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanGreat work Dan on your research. Bmarlowe if you think those ears even remotely belong to Bender then you need to take up a new hobby, you are probably friends with Lee i suspect so maybe you want to buy the "Ears" Bender wannabe cabinet card off the poor guy who got hammered.

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03-04-2009, 02:11 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanDan....now that is F*&ing killing me. Bro you are hilarious.

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03-04-2009, 02:12 PM

Posted By: Anthony S.Agreed. That was pure brilliance.

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03-04-2009, 02:16 PM

Posted By: Steve Murray Here's to Dan! <img src="http://popforum.net/images/smiles/icon_kneeldown.gif" alt="[linked image]">

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03-04-2009, 02:19 PM

Posted By: bmarloweMarshall - I don't know what the hell you're talking about, obviously you haven't read my posts on this thread. Do you know what you're talking about?

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03-04-2009, 02:21 PM

Posted By: bmarloweMossi is pre-war - so he doesn't belong here - but it is hilarious, though your posted pic looks more like Mike Mitchell to me anyway. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1236205291.JPG" alt="[linked image]">

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03-04-2009, 03:30 PM

Posted By: ClintDan, are you sure you photo is earlier than mine? Here's Mossi with the 1951 Wichita Indians. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Clint <img src="http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z186/ksfarmboy/other%20images/don.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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03-04-2009, 03:40 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanSorry BMarlowe. I thought you were with Lee.

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03-04-2009, 03:45 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI did notice you posted this earlier Bmarlowe "As noted above - always check the ears. If the photo is clear enough, this is absolutely the best way to check indentity. - This cannot possibly be Bender. No big deal the cabinet is def not Bender and the dealer is probably related to Bernie Madoff.

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03-04-2009, 04:06 PM

Posted By: bmarloweMarshall - no problem - let's be friends.

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03-04-2009, 04:14 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanBmarlowe.....my fault for not checking out your previous posts. I just look at the ears on the cabinet card and they to me look much different than Bender's. I still say also that the guy in the cabinet card is not even Indian. He stands like a englishmen waiting for a sword fight.

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03-07-2009, 11:51 AM

Posted By: Phil GarryI would like to thank everyone for their input as the seller has refunded my money on the cabinet card.

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03-07-2009, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThat's great news Phil. Glad to hear it.

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03-08-2009, 01:36 PM

Posted By: Anonymous... glad to here... best of luck!!

Matt

06-16-2009, 06:43 AM

and now this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-HONUS-WAGNER-D322-TIP-TOP-BREAD-CARD-PIRATES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a10Q7c66Q3 a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a2Q7c294 Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem518a63fb fdQQitemZ350214159357QQptZUSQ5fSMQ5fSportsQ5fCards QQsalenotsupported

but, hey! 100% feedback on 1355 transactions can't be wrong...

bcbgcbrcb

06-16-2009, 12:09 PM

Matt:

Wow!!! Those are the sharpest corners I've ever seen on a "Tip Top Bread" card. Might be worth grading, could receive a PSA 10.................