Bud Selig thinking of reinstating Aaron as HR king [Archive]

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02-12-2009, 10:07 AM

Posted By: AlJust heard that Selig is so disgusted with the steroid issue that he is considering making Hank Aaron's HR record the official MLB record again. Anyone have more info?

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02-12-2009, 10:10 AM

Posted By: leonNow there's a good debate. I have no other info and mixed feelings. On one hand I think it's great but on the other, if he does that, doesn't that open Pandora's box?

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02-12-2009, 10:12 AM

Posted By: D. BerginSelig should put an asterisk next to his reign as MLB Commissioner.

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02-12-2009, 10:14 AM

Posted By: jay woltSelig turned a blind eye towards all the juicing since the game was doing well at the cash register. Now he's disgusted since all the heat is on.

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02-12-2009, 10:14 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIf that's the case then Bonds cedes the single season record to McGwire, who is also a cheater, therefore Roger Maris is once again the single season home run champ! This could get pretty interesting.

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02-12-2009, 10:18 AM

Posted By: JimBI agree with Jay's sentiments. Selig should be banned from baseball. What a hypocrite! JimB

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02-12-2009, 10:18 AM

Posted By: DougIf they do that where does the line get drawn? Are they going to give Ty Cobb the all time hit record back because Pete Rose is banned for life from baseball? Are they going to remove the pitching records of players that admitted to scuffing/doctoring the ball? It think it would just cause a huge mess.

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02-12-2009, 10:19 AM

Posted By: PhilThe worst part of all this is that Selig made $14.5 million last year as Commissioner......I believe only 2 baseball players had an annual salary higher than him. And what has he done to earn that $$ ?

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02-12-2009, 10:19 AM

Posted By: quanselig should've taken PED's...worst.idea.ever.

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02-12-2009, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Bob PomillaHave to agree with the direction Leon and Barry are going with this. Would the all-time home run record be the only one affected? Wouldn't a lot of other people have legitimate gripes as to being steroid-cheated out of records? The line gets drawn where?

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02-12-2009, 10:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThats a great idea! I hope he goes through with it and eliminates all the records by those who have done so much to damage the game. Now he's earning his $17mm salary!

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02-12-2009, 10:31 AM

Posted By: Dave HornishSo I guess Selig has investigated and verified every record holder from the so called pre-Steroid era never doped or did anything illegal and deserves to have the unvarnished, untainted title? Puh-lease.

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02-12-2009, 10:33 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBob- it does open up a can of worms regarding all-time records. For every home run hit, there is one given up. Do you take home runs away from Bonds's total? And if you do, can the pitcher who gave one up also have it stricken from his record. Boy, what a mess!

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02-12-2009, 10:36 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSteroid usage during ones career is shaping up as a disqualifier for the Hall of Fame and it should be a disqualifier from holding any records as well.

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02-12-2009, 10:48 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieI think it just makes big mess, messier.There is already an understood asteric beside Bonds, McGwire and Sosa's names in the record books. You either pull and Commissioner Landis and ban 'em from baseball for life or you simple allow baseball historians to decide their fate. You don't need to put an asteric in the record books besides Bonds name, its already there! marty

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02-12-2009, 10:54 AM

Posted By: CatSelig's a moron. All he has done is assure that he will stay in the public eye, which will not be kind to him.

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02-12-2009, 10:57 AM

Posted By: Erick LewinTalk about pandoras box... Think about this: If he was to do this, shouldn't he have to void the results/ outcome of every single one of Bonds games, as well as any other known steroid user? People only think of the personal records and accomplishments. But, outcomes of every single game for every team for the past 15-20 years may have been skewed by a hit that someone got while useing PED's. Or a strikout that some juiced up closer got to end a game against a clean hitter.... Every single team has had and I'm sure still has at least a few people using PEDS. Here's the kicker....They still don't test for HGH! For all we know maybe 60-80% of guys in MLB are using HGH, or some similar complex, or new cutting edge undetectable substances. It is my belief that we have now entered the "Steroid AGE". No longer should we refer to the "steroid era" as a thing of the past that we are emerging from. I'm sad to say that I think there are always going to be some cheaters and that the drug technology will always be a few steps ahead of the testing technologies. As for Selig: Selig is a clown making ridiculous money. He's nothing more than a puppet for the owners and the media. He never opened his mouth when business was good. Baseball people should get together, out this guy and hire a new commisioner. Also, restructure the commisioner office and give the newcomer actual power, and hire someone with firm convictions other than money. Just as they did with Landis back in the day. E. Lewin

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02-12-2009, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Steve FFrank Wakefield, You're right... It was insensitive. This is a bit less harsh and sadly, less relevant <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1234468027.JPG" alt="[linked image]">

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02-12-2009, 11:09 AM

Posted By: MVSNYC"I think it just makes big mess, messier. There is already an understood asteric beside Bonds, McGwire and Sosa's names in the record books." ...Agreed.

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02-12-2009, 11:14 AM

Posted By: Frank Wakefield1- That's unfair to the Rainman and to Dustin Hoffman. 2- Double asterisk the whole damn mess... Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, and Selig. I'd love to be Commissioner. The game would return to being America's game, the fan's game. Idiot owners could pay as much as they want out in salaries, but we'd have ticket price caps, and concession price caps. (Where's that Miller High Life guy from the commercials? I'd have him as an Assistant to the Commissioner!) We'd have a bit more of revenue sharing to balance out the franchises. We'd go back to a minute between innings. Games would return to two hours and fifteen to thirty minutes. Media control of who plays when would vanish. All odd WS games would be day games... do something to help B.A.T. to take care of the old guys, and then we'd fix the Hall. I'd do the job for 1% of what Selig gets. Oh, and did I mention the passes that would be waiting at the turnstiles for Net54 folks?

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02-12-2009, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.I'm sure this would be a completely objective decision on Bud's part, and would have nothing to do with the fact that he is close friends with and idolizes Henry Aaron. Interesting quote from sports columnist, Bruce Jenkins, who is no Bonds fan, back in 2006: "Meanwhile, labels of fanciful innocence are attached to every edge-seeking player from, say, the mid-'50s through the mid-'80s. I can't tell you how many times I've heard retired players mention Willie Mays or Henry Aaron in amphetamine conversations not as a criticism or indictment, but as a perfectly casual, almost affectionate reminder of the fact nearly everyone wanted (and still wants) a little pick-me-up. I visited too many clubhouses to be bothered in the slightest by such talk; "speed" has long been an integral part of the game. Just wondering, though: As we put a dunce cap on McGwire as he comes up for election with the sainted Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken, do we really know for sure neither of those two icons ever took a little something to enhance performance?

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02-12-2009, 11:35 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCspeaking of Willie, does anyone remember the Bob Costas interview a few months back with Mays & Aaron? towards the end of the interview, Willie carried on a bit about asking the doctor for "something" to keep his enegry up during his playing days, he said he had no idea what they were giving him, but he took it...intersting. who really knows the truth on any of these guys (Gwynn & Ripken included)...who really knows?

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02-12-2009, 11:38 AM

Posted By: J LevineI love taking things one step further...Aaron is not HR king. Give that title to Josh Gibson. If he is going to get rid of the steroid users, why not stop there...how about the segregation of baseball? Joshua

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02-12-2009, 12:47 PM

Posted By: Red"speaking of Willie, does anyone remember the Bob Costas interview a few months back with Mays & Aaron? towards the end of the interview, Willie carried on a bit about asking the doctor for "something" to keep his enegry up during his playing days, he said he had no idea what they were giving him, but he took it...intersting. who really knows the truth on any of these guys (Gwynn & Ripken included)...who really knows?" I guess it all depends on what the rules were for such things at the time they took the substance. There had to be steroid use prior to their use being an issue.

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02-12-2009, 01:47 PM

Posted By: JDRUMThe asterisk is already there, Bud just can't see it. Like all the steroid abuse that has been going on under his reign. What an overpaid tool.

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02-12-2009, 01:52 PM

Posted By: Fred CSelig must have done something positive during his tenure as commissioner. Can anybody think of anything? I think he's got to go down as the George Bush of baseball commissioners.

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02-12-2009, 02:01 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCnot that i'm a huge Bud supporter, but i think some of you have forgotten the good things that have happended on his watch... <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Selig" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Selig</a>

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02-12-2009, 02:09 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI hate the steroid guys but it's just not realistic to wipe away the stats as it just becomes too much of a slippery slope. That being said, keeping them out of the HOF would suit me just fine.

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02-12-2009, 02:24 PM

Posted By: John H.Much as I despise all of this steroid nonsense and the idiot players involved, Bud can't expunge the records that have been set. That would be the ultimate in craziness. As the last post said, you just have to keep the losers out of Cooperstown. That's the ultimate punishment. The record book has become a joke and it's on Selig's watch. It's a tragedy that the game whose historical numbers mean more than any other sport's now includes meaningless records in many key categories.

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02-12-2009, 02:53 PM

Posted By: JerryHe's Ugly too!

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02-12-2009, 02:55 PM

Posted By: howardAn asterisk would be meaningless to me and many others as well. No matter what the "official" record books say, I, like millions of other fans, am capable of deciding to my own satisfaction who is the legitimate holder of any particular record or title. It's true in every sport. For example, despite what the record books say I know that Roy Jones, Jr. earned a gold medal in boxing in the '88 Olympics; I know that the USA beat the USSR in the gold medal basketball game in '72 and I know that Mark Gastineau holds the single season sack record because Brett Farve gifted a fake sack to Michael Strahan in 2001. While I believe that the steroid aided stats should stand I still regard Hank Aaron as the HR King until he is supplanted by some clean kid several decades down the line.

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02-12-2009, 03:55 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishEven without the who took what argument, it's asinine since all baseball stats have to "prove out"; Each year balances when all the stats are added up. You cannot change that fact no matter how many asterisks you put in there.

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02-12-2009, 04:10 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanTalk about a bunch of nonsense in regards to the whole matter. Everyone knows that Ty Cobb,Mickey Mantle, Michael Jordan,Joe Namath,Magic Johnson and so on were all off the charts in one way or another. Mantle was a total booze hound and womanizer and gambled constantly, Ty Cobb was even worse! Jordan gambled so much that he was suspended from hoops and then took up base-ball for a couple of years. Magic has the aids virus because he obviously had no respect for his wife. I'm tired of folks bashing today's ballplayers and yet say nothing about the older players. Does anyone think for a second that Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth would not have enhanced their game if they could have? Baseball has turned into this wimpy finger pointing game where if a player does anything wrong on or off the field instantly folks start screaming off with his head. The best player to ever play the game was a notorious gambler, a known racist, womanizer and abuser of women, but if you find his T206 with his name on the back it will be fought after as if he were god himself.

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02-12-2009, 04:13 PM

Posted By: keywayDid he say anything about giving the single season Home Run record back to Maris? If you do one you must do the other. It's sad that we will never know who should be deserving amoung the current players. What a mess baseball is in. Frank

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02-12-2009, 04:15 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanFrank...you said "What a mess baseball is in". Baseball is just a extension of this country. What a mess this country is in.

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02-12-2009, 04:37 PM

Posted By: keywayJust read where Selig says that A_Rod has shamed the game. I wonder what the hell he thinks he has done. Moron.

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02-12-2009, 05:02 PM

Posted By: John K You can simply remove the stats of Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Alex and restore the truth to the Home Run records. This is not quantum mechanics; if the stats don't "prove out" it will not mean that baseball will disappear into a black hole and into another dimension. Just because one can't eradicate all the evils of the game, doesn't mean one can't put things right with baseball's most hallowed ground. Aaron is the all-time record holder and Maris/Ruth hold the legitimate records for the single season (162/154) and they should be recognized as such by MLB.

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02-12-2009, 05:07 PM

Posted By: dennisWhat a mess baseball is in". Baseball is just a extension of this country. What a mess this country is in. gotta add......what a mess the whole world is in

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02-12-2009, 05:16 PM

Posted By: DonThis is an easy one to solve. Ban all proven PED users. Then make the decision that all banned players will not appear in MLB official records and are also ineligible for The Hall. Sorry Pete. If you get reinstated, then your records and eligibility are reinstated. Baseball has zero credibility until it deals decisively with this issue, just as Landis had to deal decisively with the gambling issue. Sorry Buck. And the official MLB record holders are: Aaron 755 Maris 61 Cobb 4189

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02-12-2009, 05:16 PM

Posted By: Mark LAs has been mentioned on other threads, steroids and HGH introduce a whole new dimension of cheating. I see no reason why MLB should not officially say that it regards Maris's and Aaron's records as more legitimate than those of Bonds. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference, but it does accord with what most sensible people think.

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02-12-2009, 05:36 PM

Posted By: JimmyNow, that is a very good idea, with all the bad news in baseball This would get some attention Thanks for the post Jimmy

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02-12-2009, 05:52 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Selig doesnt have to do anything because people who want to believe one record is right will believe it already no matter what he or anyone else says. I don't credit Nolan Ryan with the single season strikeout record but baseball does. All you have to do is look in the baseball encyclopedia and you will see it is wrong. I really don't care what they say just like I don't believe the Hall of Fame voting is right and the players that are in it are the best. I talked to a friend the other day about Bonds being the all-time home run king and I said to him,if youre crediting the steroids for Bonds hitting a unknown certain amount of homers then you also have to credit them for the insane walk totals he received and add those homers onto his total at a rate of at least one every 18 AB's he lost. Then you have to realize with no steroids allegations he would've definitely played last year,maybe the Giants maybe as a DH. If he was closing in on the all-time home run record when you add in those totals then he would obviously play this year and how would you know when he would stop playing if he was close? Those same steroids that youre claiming helped him home run total,also hurt his AB's total and his years played total,two big ways a person hits homeruns. Basically until you can find a way to figure out how many home runs he lost as opposed to how many he gained you have no clue how many he would've hit clean. You know baseball colluded to limit him to 762 despite the fact he would've made every team better last year and this year,and maybe further,thats the only thing youre certain about. If you really want to point fingers during his 73 home run season,point to his armor pad on his elbow that allowed him to crowd the plate and the ridiculously small strike zone the umpires gave him all year,if he didnt swing it wasnt a strike and that year he only swung at good pitches. I don't think people really understand what he did that year,he had no fear of being backed off the plate and he had probably the best pitch selection I've ever seen,coupled with a strike zone the size of a notebook. You give anyone that much respect and that much discipline for an entire season and they will do damage. Steroids didnt give him that body armor,small strike zone and amazing patience. As far as Aaron,give me proof that he never did a thing wrong when he had ways to get better that werent legal at the time as well,steroids and uppers arent a new thing. This guy set a career high in homers at the age of 37,hit 40 homeruns at the age of 39 and went downhill pretty quick after setting the record,one of the most revered records in sports. You dont think he possibly couldve looked for help as he got older and neared the record and once he reached it he was satisfied and able to play by the books and come back to earth.Name another guy who hit a career high in homers that late in his career and still hit 40 homers afterwards...Barry Bonds come to mind? Anyone else...nope,and supposedly Bonds only did it with help. To say youre 100% certain on anyone is only a happy thought because you cant be proven wrong without any tests that say otherwise. In closing,if for some reason you read this far,read the first paragraph again and believe whatever you want to believe,a book that has facts that are obviously wrong,can't tell you what's right,just ask Matt Kilroy.

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02-12-2009, 06:31 PM

Posted By: marty qto me it's very simple, if you can ban pete rose for life, then ban all the cheats for life and any record breaking feat is now null and void, but that list needs to come out, the other 103 players, not fair to the innocent ones, above anyother baseball is a numbers game, keep those numbers sacred. im my mind roger maris is still the single season holder and hank aaron is the all-time holder, someone should interview the maris family now and ask how they feel, i betcha they feel alot differently than 1998 i"ll tell you that....if you have proof of a cheater you cannot hold a major leauge record of any kind. period !!! And the official MLB record holders are: Aaron 755 Maris 61 Cobb 4189 i don't agree with cobb, rose did not take any ped's. just my 2 cents..he was a gambler not a steroid cheat. but the rules say he should be banned, and so should they...

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02-12-2009, 09:55 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI think we should move it back to Gavvy Cravath.

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02-12-2009, 11:08 PM

Posted By: Fred CHR ascension order, beginning in 1872 - 1872 - 1879 Lip Pike (20) 1880 - 1881 Charley Jones (23) 1882 - 1882 Jim O'Rourke (24) 1883 - 1884 Charley Jones (40) 1885 - 1886 Harry Stovey (57) 1887 - 1888 Dan Brouthers (74) 1889 - 1894 Harry Stovey (122) 1895 - 1920 Roger Connor (138) 1921 - 1973 Babe Ruth (714) 1974 - 2006 Hank Aaron (755) 2007 - 2008 Barry Bonds (762)* I just don't see the astersiks because regardless whether or not a player was juiced, they actually hit the HR or drove in a run, scored a run, struck someon out regardless of their PED usage. In some ways I think they should release all 100+ players that failed the test but maybe MLB sees it as something that would really hurt baseball. What happens if we find someone like Griffery Jr (or someone else so revered) ends up on that list. Do we really want to know this? 500HR Club Members that are on the all juiced team: McGwire Palmiero Bonds A-Fraud Sosa There are 24 members (Sheffield is at 499) of the 500HR club. Over twenty percent (that we know of have been juiced). Other possibilities include (players from this era): Griffey Jr Manny Thome Thomas If the above 4 + Sheffield make the list then that would mean that 40% of the club would have been juiced. That's a lot of asterisks just for HRs. What about pitchers? There's Clemens...

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02-13-2009, 05:45 AM

Posted By: Bobby I.Again, totally disgusted as stated previously but just happened to notice something yesterday that you might find interesting. In the history of baseball there have been only 15 instances where a player has hit 100 HRS in a consecutive 2 year period. A-Roid appears on that list twice and can anyone guess the period? What a surprise 2001-2002 and 2002-2003. Others of note: Sosa 3 times, McGwire twice, Ruth twice, Griffey twice, Bonds 3 times, Foxx once, and a few otheres. Point being virtually 70% of this stat was generated within the past 10 years, if someone fails to draw the corollary that steriods increase power production they are as blind as Selig. Proven and admitted PED users have to have all career stats removed from the record books, period no discussion. If a few users have been able to sidestep discovery then so be it but you have to take a stand. Just look at that list all but Ruth, Griffey and Foxx should be eliminted.

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02-13-2009, 06:18 AM

Posted By: Erick LewinIf Selig ever tried to ban certain stats of PED users, why wouldn't he have to go back through all eras and ban other cheating players stats. PED's are just one form of cheating. Throughout baseballs history there have been players cheating and looking to find an edge in any way they can. From spitballs, scuffed balls, pine tar, juiced balls, sharpened spikes!,corked bats etc...The list is endless. For some reason people tend to talk about these forms of cheating with just a wink or a nod, and don't think it's as severe of a form of cheating. Why not? Maybe a corked bat with a clean player provides the same amount of extra force to a hit ball as a non-corked bat with a juiced player? Why do these old timers get a pass on all the methods they came up with to cheat the game? The old time players used whatever were the best methods of cheating for their generation as players today are doing now. Does anyone honestly believe that no old time legendary players wouldn't have usded steroids or ther PED's if given the opportunity. I believe there shouldn't be any asterisks or erasing of records from the books, because of all the problems that arise with the idea. There will always be an unwritten known asterisk with certain guys. For me personally, I will just look as this era by itself and realize I can't compare the numbers to older generation ballplayers. I will look at this generation by itself and just look at who was the best of this time-period. Because, that's all we can do. We can't compare these guys to past generations. And, To anyone who thinks that 103 list should come out: Even if it does, it's only the tip of the iceberg. That's just who got caught in one year, for one ANNOUNCED drug test that the players knew was coming. If the true list of everyone ever came out, it would truly be shocking and completlely devastating. There is no way to ever be certain that anyone from the past 15-20 years or more have been clean. Sorry for the long-windedness. E. Lewin

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02-13-2009, 06:33 AM

Posted By: D. C. MarkelAs someone who used to read a lot of Bill James and passionately studied Sabermetrics, I feel the whole concept of Home Run King is way overblown and should be ignored. If you look at the all-time list of Slugging Percentage Leaders, which is a better indication of hitting for power based on the number of at-bats, the statistics may be surprising, (except for Ruth of course) - especially when you see where Mantle, Mays and Aaron rank: 1. B Ruth .690 2. T Williams .634 3. L Gehrig .632 4. J Foxx .609 5. B Bonds .607 6. H Greenberg .605 7. M Ramirez* .593 8. M McGwire .588 9. J DiMaggio .579 10. A Rodriguez* .578 11. R Hornsby .577 12. V Guerrero* .575 13. T Helton* .574 14. L Walker .565 15. A Belle .564 16. J Mize .562 17. J Gonzalez* .561 18. J Thome* .560 19. S Musial .559 21. M Mantle .557 21. W Mays .557 22. H Aaron .555 22. F Thomas* .555 24. C Jones* .548 24. R Kiner .548 In short, MLB needs to just downplay HR King and make a big push to hype the idea of "Slugging King".

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02-13-2009, 06:42 AM

Posted By: Don"And the official MLB record holders are: Aaron 755 Maris 61 Cobb 4189 i don't agree with cobb, rose did not take any ped's. just my 2 cents..he was a gambler not a steroid cheat. but the rules say he should be banned, and so should they..." The point I was making is that anyone banned has their stats removed from MLB records. I realize that might not be quite the same issue for someone like Pete Rose, but it would be an objective solution to the problem. Hence my "sorry Pete" comment because since he's banned, his records must be removed also.

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02-13-2009, 06:52 AM

Posted By: Vintage CloutWhere do we draw the line in the sand? I am certainly no fan of Bonds, Clemens, McGuire, etc. but you CANNOT simply erase records from the book with "white out"! Keep in mind that of approximately 750 Major League players, you can bet that "at least" 500 or 2/3 are taking performance enhancing drugs and it is NOT because these players want to set records...there is simply too much money involved not to. Therefore, a significant number of pitchers are included in this group which enhances THEIR performance and quite possibly leveling the playing field. I was speaking with an ex-minor league pitcher a few months ago and was informed that taking "HGH" over several months will instanly add 3 - 5 miles per hour on the average professional level fastball! It is certainly got out of hand and Selig did absolutely NOTHING all along to "push" for more testing and severe punishments......now he wants to be a hero.....give me a break! Unfortunately, I think it is going to get worse and I truely worry about the future of our National Pastime. Regards, VC P.S. - Kudos to players like Jeter, Maddux and Griffey (especially Griffey who needed HGH in the twilight of his career more than anybody but refused to compromise his integrity!) who continue to be PERFECT representations of everything our National Pastime should stand for!

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02-13-2009, 07:30 AM

Posted By: JohnnyHHow can one deny that Pete Rose is not the hit king ? What he did on the field had nothing to with his ban from the hall of fame for his gambling. I truly believe after he is dead he will be elected into the hall of fame. If not, his record will remain and if removed, then Ty Cobb should be banned, and Cap Anson should be removed along with many others. If Ty Cobb did the things he did today that he did back then he would be in jail and kicked out of baseball forever. And all this talk about what a mess the world is in today, when hasn't it been ? Nothing is new, nothing is different, just advancement in technology.

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02-13-2009, 07:38 AM

Posted By: John K JohnnyH, you are completely correct on Rose. DC, thanks for the list of the Sluggers. Nice looking list; just remove the steroid guys. Foxx and Greenberg underrated. Nice to see the best two position players of all time on top of this list.

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02-13-2009, 07:43 AM

Posted By: DonSome of you are missing my point. In order to have an objective standard to deal with the PED issue, ban anyone who is a proven PED user. Declare that anyone banned will not have their stats as part of MLB official records and ineligible for the HOF. Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe etc. would be caught in the banned net and have their stats removed as well. Unfortunate? Maybe, but there has to be an objective way to deal with the PED issue and clean up MLB records. This was just my suggestion on how to do that. The easy way to fix Rose/Jackson etc. would be to reinstate them. And who knows, maybe in the hindsight of history, people like McGwire/Sosa/Bonds would be reinstated as well and have their records count (I hope not though). Personally, I don't see how anyone who was banned should have their stats count anyway. That should be part of the price you pay for doing something so egregious that you get banned from MLB. If all these PED users thought they might get banned, and subsequently have their stats not recognized by MLB, it would take away a major incentive for using PED's.

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02-13-2009, 07:46 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI agree that Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. His actions took place after his playing career was over. What goes on behind closed doors of many athletes is no different than any other person. A majority of this world puts on the old i'm heading to work face which is smile,be polite,say the right things,kiss ass, act socially and politically correct. Once the person returns home then it is a whole new ballgame. I once spoke to Rose in Florida and told him that there are more fans who appreciated what he brought to the game when he played than the finger pointers keeping him out of the Hall. He touched the lives of millions of kids with the head first aggressive diving style and hustle so i say Go Pete Go.

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02-13-2009, 07:58 AM

Posted By: CyMaybe the lawyers can chime in on this. What if Selig decries that Aaron is the home run king, that Bonds' home runs were tainted and were not the "real thing"? Would that allow all of the Giants season ticket holders, and, I guess any ticket buyer, to sue major league baseball for the price of their tickets because they received an inferior product? If MLB didn't give the paying fans the true baseball that was stated, I would think that as a paying customer, I could demand my money back for every one of those years! Cy

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02-13-2009, 08:02 AM

Posted By: Vintage CloutI believe the major issue with Rose is that he "denied" gambling instead of being 100% humble and apologetic. This country has a forgiving nature but Rose's complete denial in the face of 100% guilt destroyed him! Case in point....how come nobody badmouths Any Pettite....because he agreed to using performance drugs to assist in various healing issues (whether it was for injury we may never know for sure!), but the fact remains that he said YES to using HGH. Clemens was a complete liar, making a sham of the whole process, embarassing himself in public and THAT is what the baseball community will remember. This is one reason that I believe Joe Jackson should be included in the Hall.....he eventually admitted to taking money and was ashamed for his guilt. Our nation is built on most criminals (except for "murder 1" of course)eventually being released from prison and provided a chance for a clean slate which is why we must ask this question.....what gives baseball (merely men playing a kid's game)the right to be more important than life itself...give me a break! VC

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02-13-2009, 08:45 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanWho cares about Andy Pettite? His situation was totally different than that of Pete Rose. So what if Rose lied about his gambling. I do believe there was a former President that lied about a certain use of a cigar. He was not impeached and his records remain intact.

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02-13-2009, 08:49 AM

Posted By: Jim VB"He was not impeached " He, most certainly, was impeached.

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02-13-2009, 09:01 AM

Posted By: AnonymousYou are missing the point. You will ALWAYS have a better chance when you "come clean" instead of hiding the garbage that incriminates you. Petitte, Rose, etc....who cares about the name...the public isn't stupid and is tired of being deceived regarding any issue. I can remember Tom Seaver in a rouge interview standing up at a podium asking the American public to forgive Pete Rose for his wrong doings. Unfortunately, in the face of denial there could NEVER be forgiveness. Marshall, I myself believe Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for his accomplishments. If Rose and Jackson are out, then Cobb and Speaker should have also been banned for their gambling exploits (I believe Landis was afraid to nail those two legends to the wall due to the 1919 scandal, figuring it would be the final nail in the coffin and destroy the game forever). Bottom line is I am just trying to make light of how millions of others may feel. Regards, VC

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02-13-2009, 09:13 AM

Posted By: Fred CDon, The only problem with not allowing proven PED users stats to count in the MLB records books is that it only addresses those that were caught. Those that weren't caught will get away with it. Who would make a good baseball commissioner today? What about Bernie Madoff? One more thing, everybody wants to blame Selig for this whole thing. What about the players unions? What about the owners? I think it would be hard to convince people that the unions and owners had no knowledge of what was going on. Sure, Selig was the commissioner but how many times have you heard in the news that a player or owner called Selig and expressed their concern about the "possible" use of PEDs by MLB players?

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02-13-2009, 09:19 AM

Posted By: DonTrue, you might not catch them all but that's no reason not to punish the ones you do catch. One option is to test them all, every year. This would be another confidence builder in cleaning up the game. I'm not sure who might make a good comissioner, I'd have to think about it. But, I think it should be someone not connected with MLB.

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02-14-2009, 06:04 AM

Posted By: Bob ManningColin Powell George Will Condoleeza Rice Jim Rice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The Jersey Devil Dick Cheney Mr. Hyde Rod Blagojevich

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02-14-2009, 06:16 AM

Posted By: AlRe: Slick Willy, aka Bill Clnton... A simple Google of "Bill Clinton impeachment" will find you with enough reading material to last well into next week. That you could post "he was not impeached" is beyond laughable. Perhaps you'd like to recant your statement.

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02-14-2009, 10:17 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanLMAO.....i know he was impeached but only in the trial sense. He was not officially impeached and removed from office like other former presidents.

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02-14-2009, 10:26 AM

Posted By: GlennOh, where to start?

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02-14-2009, 10:56 AM

Posted By: Don"LMAO.....i know he was impeached but only in the trial sense. He was not officially impeached and removed from office like other former presidents." You definately brought the noise with that statement.

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02-14-2009, 11:10 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanWhen i stated he was not impeached from office what i should have said is that he was not removed from office because of the impeachment.

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02-14-2009, 11:18 AM

Posted By: Jim VB"He was not officially impeached and removed from office like other former presidents." I may have mentioned this before, as have several other posters, but you couldn't be more WRONG, on several issues. 1. Clinton WAS impeached. Period. December 19, 1998. Officially, unofficially, any other way you can think of it. Impeachment is brought by the House of Representatives. It is the act of being charged with wrongdoing. (Comparable to an indictment in a criminal case.) Nothing more. When a President is impeached, the actual trial is held by the Senate. There was an impeachment. There was a trial. (It was on TV. You may have missed it.) He was acquitted by the Senate. 2. He was the second President to be impeached. The first was Andrew Johnson. He was impeached by political rivals of his own party who thought he was being too soft on the South, during the Reconstruction, following the Civil War. He was also acquitted. (This one wasn't on TV.) 3. No other President of the US has ever been impeached and/or "removed from office." I know. You're thinking of Nixon. He wasn't impeached. He wasn't removed from office. He resigned before any of that could happen.

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02-14-2009, 11:50 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanJim....you do crack me up bro. There is a 8% discount card at Border's books for your superior knowledge on Impeachment. Clinton was Aquitted and not removed from office. However you want to shake it down the man was off the charts and was not removed.

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02-14-2009, 03:48 PM

Posted By: keywayPete Rose was a wise guy. He was a wise guy all if his career. He thought he was all of baseball and could do no wrong. He BET ON BASEBALL as the manager of a team. He is a bum and should NEVER be let in the hall of fame. Frank

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02-14-2009, 10:13 PM

Posted By: J LevineI nominate our collecting friend, Keith O. as the next commish... Just once, I would love Marshall, to say, "I am sorry, I was wrong." Just once... Joshua

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02-15-2009, 05:19 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanLevine....just once i would like it if you stop whining. You remind me of like a 2nd grade English teacher. Ok little Billy come up in front of the class and say you are sorry for talking about what Mr.Clinton did with that cigar.

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02-15-2009, 05:38 AM

Posted By: Jim VBAah! 2nd Grade! The three best years of your life! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-15-2009, 07:26 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanJim Vb.... you remind of this joke i once heard in regards to three flies. These three flies were in the pasture eating cow **** and they ate the whole pile. The three flies were so full that they could not fly, the oldest fly said to the other two i am going to crawl up that pitchfork and flap my wings as fast as i can and then start flying, he crawled up the pitchfork got to the handle and jumped off flapping as fast as he could and he got about ten feet out and nosedived splat to his death. The other fly looked at the youngest and said well he was to old but i bet i can make it so watch me crawl up that pitchfork and fly away, he crawled up the pitchfork and got to the handle and wooosh off he flew, about 25 feet he took a nosedive and splat he died. The youngest fly looked and thought well he almost made it and i am the youngest so i think if i flap real fast i can make it. He crawled up the pitchfork and got to the handle and woosh off he went, about 35 feet later he nosedived and crashed to his death. The moral of the story Jim Vb is that when you are full of **** do not fly off the handle.