Auction Houses-Going, Going..Gone? [Archive]

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02-09-2009, 05:38 AM

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind The Final Gavel For the past 15 years phone, internet and live auctions have been the lifeblood of our hobby. Whilst there are no hard statistics available, our best guess is that 85% of all baseball cards valued at $2000 or greater sold during the past five years have been auctioned by one of fifteen (15) different auction houses. There is no need to post that list. And there have certainly been a handful private sales and a number of E Bay transactions. As best as we can tell for a catalog auction the time period between the consignment closing date and the payment time is around 100 days. In some cases it is a much longer period of time, and for a few smaller auctions the period may be as short as 75 days. We are now in an economic crisis of untold proportions. Key note speakers at a recent Wharton Private Equity crisis said there was a one in three chance of a full blown depression (banks collapses and 15%+ unemployment). Cash is king and credit is extremely difficult to obtain (several NYSE companies are paying 15% interest on their bonds). Distrust, uncertainty and panic are ever present across each and every facet of our economy. In plain English people are scared, distrusting and don't know what to do or where to turn. We predict that by late Spring of this year, all consignors will demand at least a 50% upfront payment. Major consignors will ask auction houses to personally guarantee payment. Whilst we know of no auction house that is on the verge of closing, we predict that at least three of the hobbys top fifteen (15) auction houses will close their doors in 2009. And we predict some consignors will not be paid (at least for a very, very long time) for their consignments. We wonder how this will affect the overall baseball card market. With tougher terms, more economic uncertainty and a lack of transparency only those auction houses with access to large amounts of ready cash will survive. Look for more private transactions at lower levels. We welcome your comments. Thanks for your time Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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02-09-2009, 05:52 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce- at what point does a severe recession become a depression? Is there a precise definition of what constitutes a depression?

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02-09-2009, 05:58 AM

Posted By: leonHi Bruce I might agree with your first paragraph. Your 2nd one about payment times might be close though for some small ones I think the time between consignment and payment to consignor is a bit less. I also agree we are in a very bad financial crisis as which most of us have not seen before. I do think people will know where to turn though. I think they will use ingenuity to come out of the financial mess....one by one. I pretty much completely disagree with your paragraph about 50% up front payment for consignments. I just don't think that will happen. I also don't think 3 of the top auction houses will close. Maybe one, maybe none. Personally, I doubt any of them will close. I do agree that some consignors could have to wait to get paid by some auction houses. I know of one auction house that pays within 2 weeks of auction close <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">. I don't think this financial mess will affect the hobby anymore than the fact that there is less discrecionary funds to spend nowadays.....Not a bad thread to get some juices flowing. I prefer to be cautiously optimistic though. take care

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02-09-2009, 05:59 AM

Posted By: randat the end of the day, IMO, Ebay is the best result for a seller. # 1 reason, seller can set his own price at a BIN or Best Offer Sale. depending on the card the deal could happen within hours of the listing, if the seller wants a higher amount then he can afford to wait till the right amount comes along. if a major auction can take approx 100+ days to deliver payment from consignment origin, then that card can sit on ebay for 100 days. if the owner of the sgc 40 wagner had a better idea about ebay instead of phillip wiess auctions, he could have listed the card at $1,200,000 or best offer, then would have probably sold the card for $1 Million and made more money on it. the high buyers premiums are biting heavily into the price of the lots, not for the buyers, for the sellers.

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02-09-2009, 06:00 AM

Posted By: Rob D.My prediction: A few new "Wanted to buy" posts by The Group on the B/S/T within the next 24 to 36 hours.

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02-09-2009, 06:12 AM

Posted By: Doug"At the end of the day, IMO, Ebay is the best result for a seller" I would agree. Usually anything I list sells within a day or two unless I'm actually trying to hold out for top dollar and in that case I can afford to wait or just hold on to the item.

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02-09-2009, 06:25 AM

Posted By: Ted ShermanA recession is when your neighbor loses his job, a depression is when you lose yours

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02-09-2009, 06:26 AM

Posted By: AlanRand - Josh Evans & Doug Allen both said (at last years National) that the big buyers in the hobby don't want to fool with eBay. They want a nice catalog that they can read (say, while they're in the bathroom <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">) that has all these rare & high end cards for auction.

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02-09-2009, 06:26 AM

Posted By: Joe D.Barry, Yes... there is a generally accepted specific / measurable definition of 'recession' and 'depression' recession: a decline in GDP for two or more consecutive quarters. depression: a decline in real GDP that exceeds 10% or one that lasts more than three years. (from The Economist

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02-09-2009, 06:30 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellAnother great post Bruce. If I was a seller of high end cards today I don't think I would risk sending them to an auction house. Just yesterday I got an offer to buy a 19th century rare psa 8 with the offer to make a bid and the last price one sold at was $12,000(I think its a pop 3). Would be interesting for the hobby if this happened--more sold directly and perhaps at shows. Jim

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02-09-2009, 06:37 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanBruce....we are in a different era now so throw out the full blown depression talk. The problem right now is most folks are preaching doom and gloom so how can folks feel any confidence? America was on a roll bigtime but just like at a craps table when a hot hand holds the dice when the 7 finally hits there is a ton of money on the table and lost. My personal opinion is there is just to much competition in all aspects of business so only the strong will survie. In my area there are 20 Ford dealerships within a 40 mile driving distance. Are you kidding me? It is no wonder the automobile industry is in trouble. There is also 7 pizza shops in my town which is ridiculous. The point i am trying to make is their are to many baseball card auction houses. Here is a prime example of how to use common sense and research and take control of a situation and not rely on others during this economic downswing. I recently graded 48 cello pack pulled American Beauties that i found months ago, even though i was successful sending some of my tobacco cards to a major auction house i decided now is not the time to have other folks responsible for selling or paying me anything. I researched the Beauties and found Robert Edwards auction sold 7 PSA 9's for 2,000 and a couple of those cards were the first ever 9's found. I listed three PSA 8's on E-bay and the prices are 430.00 330.00 150.00, i also sold two PSA 8's offline 350.00 and 325.00. So on 5 cards by selling the cards myself the total is 1580.00 and i never had to worry about getting paid or dealing with drama. I'm quite sure that if i sent those cards to a major auction house there is no way they would have pulled that. Alot of folks do not even try to buy cards from Mastro's or any of the big boys because they just wait for cards to hit E-bay and most of the time that is where they end up. America is the land of the free and if you work hard success is right around the corner but folks have to become smarter in understanding competition in business. A friend of mine called me a month ago and asked me what i thought about building a storage shed unit in my area and i almost lost it, there are 10 facilites in my town already which is to many so i asked him if he did any due diligence to understand the demographics or market he was trying to reach. His reply was no but i have to put money somewhere and storage shed units are a safe bet. My advice to him was buy silver because it is going to go up and at the time it was 10.93 currently it is at 13.03 and will continue to rise. Silver will be at 30.00 a ounce by 2010 book it. People need to start thinking outside the box and become more creative in their investing instead of just opening restaurants,car dealerships,coffe shops, buying real estate, and so on. While businesses continue to close down like Circuit City and others it should be a example of what not to do and that their is to much competition to make any serious money. The baseball card auction houses are next and when some of them fold up shop it is to be expected because of the amount of them.

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02-09-2009, 06:41 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThanks Joe...and I like Ted's definition, too.

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02-09-2009, 06:55 AM

Posted By: AlanA recession is when a card you want goes too high for your budget, a depression is when the card you're selling goes lower than you thought. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="sad.gif">

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02-09-2009, 10:32 AM

Posted By: jay woltI don't see why any auction house would close its doors due to the economy. They retain a % of the final sale from the buyer and often from the consignor. So even if a card lot sells below their estimated value, they still get a % of sales even though the consignor can lose his shirt. So they still have positive $$$ rolling in.

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02-09-2009, 10:47 AM

Posted By: PhilEven though they have money coming in, you have to remember that they have to pay for staff salaries, advertising/marketing their auctions, they have fixed costs (i.e. rent, etc.), and they have to pay for catalogs and or websites. With probably overall consignments down in a down economy and overall hammer prices probably a little down (plus some items not even getting opening bids), some auction houses are probably having a hard time breaking even right now.

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02-09-2009, 10:49 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzWell, Jay, according to The Group, prospective consignors will want a big chunk of their money upfront. And, of course, the auction house can't afford to pony up all that dough. So, no upfront money, no consignments, no auction house. The only way out of this disaster is to sell your cards now, for cash (although at a steep discount), to you-know-who.

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02-09-2009, 11:02 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJay, They would have expenses associated with putting on the auction though--especially Mastro. With all this talk about depression, prices for graded cards do not seem to be dropping--pre-war and post war. I understand T206 psa 8s have delined but that has been going on for over a year. The prices for high grade post war vintage if anything are strengthening in here--at least for the 48-69 sets I am tring to complete. Jim

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02-09-2009, 11:32 AM

Posted By: JimB"Is their a precise definition of what constitutes a depression?" Barry, I expected more from you. What is up with "their" when it should be "there"? JimB <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-09-2009, 11:38 AM

Posted By: barrysloateEgad- thanks Jim. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> It's called posting too early in the morning and not proofreading. I will fix it pronto.

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02-09-2009, 11:43 AM

Posted By: davidcyclebackObviously there is only one thing that can be done in this deep depression. Everyone give their cards to Bruce and he will dispose of them for you. There's a possible upcoming report from the FDA that Pre-War cards (especially those valued at $2,000 and above) were made with arsenic-laced ink. Again, before your cards become illegal, the best thing is to give them to Bruce. He's licensed to dispose of poisonous baseball cards. There's also a report of the undead possibly rising to reclaim their rare back T206s and uncatalogued N172s by spring, but the details on this are sketchy at this moment.

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02-09-2009, 12:48 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta<img src="http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/features/health/theskinny/blog/debbie_downer.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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02-09-2009, 01:36 PM

Posted By: peter ullmanIt looks like Brian Cataquet is getting in on the action...I mean auction! BCB ventures will be opening for business with their inaugural auction in March. What recession/depression?

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02-09-2009, 01:38 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWhere is Bruce? He made a provocative post, then headed out on vacation.

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02-09-2009, 01:44 PM

Posted By: Jim VB"Where is Bruce? He made a provocative post, then headed out on vacation." This was a rhetorical question. Right?

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02-09-2009, 01:59 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBasically...Bruce has a habit of not following up his posts, and I think he should. You put out a topic, you stick around to discuss it.

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02-09-2009, 02:35 PM

Posted By: BobBottom line continues to be buy cards you like, not that you want to invest in for speculation purposes. If the monetary value of cards disappear, you still have a collection you love.

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02-09-2009, 05:09 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWatch out below--I don't know if we are all ready for this but Bruce says "his next post will turn the hobby upside down". Just in time for the Philadelphia show. Sure this will create a lot of buzz. Bruce --are you releasing this bombshell before this weekends show? Anxiously, Jim

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02-09-2009, 05:42 PM

Posted By: JasonDrama? With my cardboard? Can't wait!

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02-09-2009, 06:23 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanHere is a quote i found interesting in Bruce's post-In plain English people are scared, distrusting and don't know what to do or where to turn. No matter what the economy i find this to be how a majority of people are. It really is just nature at it's best. Try petting a bird sometime. The bombshell he will drop i hope will be fact and not some hearsay rumor that has no merit.

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02-09-2009, 07:47 PM

Posted By: Joe B.OT - but who are the several NYSE listed companies paying 15% coupons on their bonds? That's not true at all. The yield you can earn by purchasing a bond at a discount in a secondary market is totally different than the coupon a company pays to issue debt. Only the sketchiest of companies have coupons around 10% (sure they are NYSE listed but that's a pretty low bar) and none pay 15%.

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02-10-2009, 06:14 PM

Posted By: Scott FandangoBruce, is your point a few auction houses will close? That is no big news, and surely wont affect the hobby... There are too many now, and the buyers premiums have gone too high... Sure when all was fine and dandy they could get away with a fee close to 20%....Maybe they overexpanded "in the hey days" and a shake out needs to occur.... In this economy, there will be less money to go around and therefore less stores (auction houses) are needed.... Bruce spices up a simple thing to make it more dramatic...

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02-10-2009, 06:45 PM

Posted By: AlanThey better not start charging for their catalogs. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-10-2009, 07:02 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanTo me it is pathetic that auction houses charge 20% to the buyer and then either 10 or 20% to the consignor. That means that the auction house makes 40% of what the item is worth. Reminds me a little of the mafia mindset. To grab a digital camera and write a description of a card to then post it online is not that difficult nor is it worth 20%. I recieved a phone call from a auction house dealing with antiques that will only charge 5% if i want to sell any art that i currently own, now that is more like it.

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02-10-2009, 07:17 PM

Posted By: jay woltMany auction houses adjust their sellers premium to just 5% or zero %. The better the lots the better % you receive. Edited to add, as example Leon & Scott offer 0% fees on lots over $500 and 5% on lots under $500 for their auctions.

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02-10-2009, 07:19 PM

Posted By: Scot This is creative destruction at work. The best auction houses will thrive and the worst will die. The capitalist system does not work unless poorly run businesses are allowed to fail--a precept that unfortunately has fallen out of favor in Washington in the last six months or so.

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02-10-2009, 07:31 PM

Posted By: Joe D."The capitalist system does not work unless poorly run businesses are allowed to fail" very well said. agree 100%

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02-10-2009, 08:53 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanYou can run a business poorly or manage it perfectly, what does that have to do with overcharging? Believe me if you think major auction houses that charge a 20 to 28% buyer premium along with any type of seller % are going to make it even if run brilliantly then watch and see what happens. Greed is the demise to business so here is two words for you BERNIE MADOFF.

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02-10-2009, 09:19 PM

Posted By: CatIt looks like the system may very well be shaking out the overcharging of the buyers premium. From a distance, it looks like Mastro raised their overhead and started charging more for their services to cover large overhead costs. They tried to get into other service lines (art) that didn't seem to be their primary area of expertise which undoubtedly cost money to enter. Card buyers and consigners turned away in enough numbers that it caused cash flow problems. The investors said no additions to the line of credit. Now, we just have to see what the next steps are. They will likely adjust or suffer a death of their business. It does not look like their business model can support their high overhead costs. The system works.

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02-10-2009, 09:38 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellI'm curious to see where we are a year from now. There are too many auction houses and too little inventory for consignment fees to go up, but the practice of annual increases in buyers premiums is at an end. The squeeze is on auctioneers. In a recession, stuff stops selling unless sellers are really motivated, usually for unfortunate reasons. The hobby isn't going to croak, it's just going to slow down a lot as people dash for the sidelines. Agree fully with Cat that the system works. In buyers' favor, this time around. Bill

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02-10-2009, 10:30 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackWhen the economy was humming along, I thought there were too many auction houses. I assumed a one or two or more would drop out some day. Some times it seemed there was a new auction starting every other three minutes-- and all fighting over a fine amount of quality stuff.

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02-11-2009, 03:14 AM

Posted By: Bruce DorskindWe have watched as the Board has commented on this thread Here are our observations: 1. The Auction Houses, with a few notable exceptions, are too thinly capitalized. If a major Auction House collapses- as we predicted months ago, the affect will spread across the Hobby. Most of the Auction Houses have less than $1 million in free capital. Most are dependent on funding from one or two people. One should not auction major material without a "deep dive" review of the Auction House's books. With three exceptions we would only consign high-end items if the owners of the Auction House personally guaranteed payment.Transparency and security will becomemajor factors for those auction houses attempting to secure major collections. 2. We believe that the US Economic Crisis is in a very early stage. We do not believe that our politicians and the infusion of a trillion dollars of cash will solve this country's current problems. We are likely to face the most serious crisis in over 120 years. Only luck and a significant external event (war?) will boost the economy during the next five years. We predicted a 7500 Stock Market on this Board in March of 2008. We now predict a 6000 stock market by September, 15% unemployment and a number major changes in the US Government. 3. On a personal basis we are collectors. Not investors, Not Dealers. Unlike most of America, we don't spend above our means. We seek the same cards for our collection regardless of the state of the Economy. Whilst we consistently attempt to secure buying opportunities, we turn down 95% of what we are offered because it does not meet our condition standards and/or it is not what we collect. For example, we have no interest mid-grade rare T 206 backs at any price. We will look for opportunities- but only for the items on America's Toughest Want List Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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02-11-2009, 03:43 AM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanI think that auction houses need to update their payment methods. Most do not accept PayPal or credit cards. With ebay the auction closes, I pay with PayPal 2 minutes after the auction closes, the item is mailed the next day and I have it in my hands within a couple of days. I know up front what the shipping charges will be. When I win an auction lot I generally wait 2 or 3 or 4 days for an email with the total charges. Then I mail a check. Then I wait for the check to clear. Then I wait for the company to ship the item. Generally the shipping charges are too high. I recently bought a $19 photo and the auction house shipped it Fed EX and charged me another $19. They could have put it in the mail for two bucks. Why ship by Fed Ex when I have already waited two weeks for this item? In my opinion the auction houses should do the following: 1. List shipping charges up front or offer free shipping as a part of the buyers premium. 2. Have enough staff on hand to send out the invoices within 24 hours. 3. Accept PayPal and credit cards. Rick

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02-11-2009, 04:29 AM

Posted By: barrysloateRick- I think a good part of the reason that auction houses don't accept credit cards is that almost all have an "all sales are final" policy. With a credit card payment, any buyer can receive an item, decide he doesn't like it, and have the credit card company stand behind his right to return it. Unfortunately, auctions cannot be conducted on an approval basis. Most consignors submit their material months in advance of the auction close, and don't want to find out that they are getting their stuff back after all that time.

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02-11-2009, 04:41 AM

Posted By: rand3. On a personal basis we are collectors. Not investors, Not Dealers. Unlike most of America, we don't spend above our means. We seek the same cards for our collection regardless of the state of the Economy. Whilst we consistently attempt to secure buying opportunities, we turn down 95% of what we are offered because it does not meet our condition standards and/or it is not what we collect. For example, we have no interest mid-grade rare T 206 backs at any price. We will look for opportunities- but only for the items on America's Toughest Want List ***your post up to this was insightful and a good read. # 3 ... is an annoying read

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02-11-2009, 05:56 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanBruce....where is this earth shattering news you promised? The predictions you are making in regards to the economy have been predicted by alot of analysists so this is not news to anyone following the current economic situation. Tell us somthing positive or make a prediction about a winner. Believe me buy silver with both hands because it will be at 30.00 by 2010 no matter what happens to the economy.

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02-11-2009, 06:20 AM

Posted By: leonActually I think Bruce is right. I think there will be some fairly big news coming out very soon (days) about some happenings in our hobby. It's too early to say exactly what it will entail. I think the hobby will be just fine though. As predominantly a collector I am fine with whatever happens. I love collecting and enjoy my cards.....I think the auction business will do fine too (though I am very biased). The strong and financially sound will survive.....

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02-11-2009, 06:24 AM

Posted By: jay woltRick - I agree with your post. Shipping is usually too high and due to no acceptance of credit cards it takes weeks from payment to receiving your lots instead of days. Case in point. On Monday I was alerted by Email that I won a lot in Heritage. I then viewed their online invoice and they accepted credit cards, Paypal & Echecks as options. I paid via an Echeck. On Tuesday I was alerted that my lot was shipped w/ USPS tracking #, and it should be in my PO Box tomorrow. They are radical in the way they do business in the auction world.

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02-11-2009, 06:46 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittThey are unparalleled in the way they have their systems set up. It's seamless and offers SO many ways to pay. The days of just check payment should be gone. Just the way it is............

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02-11-2009, 06:49 AM

Posted By: Robert KlevensI hope to receive my Mastro consignment check this week from the December 18th auction. I won an item in the HA.com auction last year and paid with Paypal, it was great. I run a small online auction and I accept credit cards and Paypal with no problems.

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02-11-2009, 06:58 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRobert, it's only been about two months. I'm sure once Mastro gets done using your money to pay for their current auction expenses they'll get around to paying you.

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02-11-2009, 07:51 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinThis economic situation is hitting some new card dealers/stores as well From the CU Boards < I finally spoke with **** just a few minutes ago, they are out of business. I was told they got upside down on their lines of credit and can't recover. I was also told that if you recently sent a check for payment those will be returned, and that he said that he has been on the phone with paypal trying to resolve the chargebacks. I asked if he would be refunding the credit card payments (which is how I paid), and he told me there was also a problem with the bank so that probably would not happen and that I should just file a chargeback with my credit card company. And from an article about long-time hobby veteran's Bob Brill's store closing < For Brill, cash flow became an insurmountable issue in September when he received a letter from his credit card company saying the $20,000 limit on his card had been cut in half. He already owed the company $9,500 >> Rich

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02-11-2009, 07:55 AM

Posted By: randJeff, correct me if i'm wrong. but isnt the definition of a ponzi scheme taking money from new investors and paying off old ones? i know its a bit more detailed than that BUT it has its similarities. i wonder how this will affect the rest of their auctions this year? a friend of mine is still owed $900, he WON'T be sending them anymore material.

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02-11-2009, 08:03 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanMany of my clients have seen their lines cut or completely closed and others have had banks renege on financing that was negotiated and nearly in place. It is starting to kill smaller businesses. I've had one client scrap a planned additional location due to financing issues and another just get reamed by the bank on a refinance. As far as auctioneers, the reason they do not accept electronic payments are twofold: (1) Just like many ebayers who hate paypal, they don't want to risk a chargeback and (3) simple greed: if they require paper payments, they can keep the cash as a float for however long they like and the consignors have virtually no recourse (as Jeff notes above, it is in effect a free short term line of credit for the auctioneer), and they save the credit card processors' fees. When you are scrapping for every percentage point of BP and commission, that structure is big in your planning... Heritage is a pleasure to deal with in terms of payment; I guess at their size they don't worry about the credit card processing fees. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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02-11-2009, 08:06 AM

Posted By: Jim VBAll auction house business is built on trust. Consignors trust that lots they send in will be cared for, represented well in the auction, and, after the auction ends, payment will be timely. Buyers trust that lots will be accurately described, and when they send in payment, merchandise will be shipped safely, and in a timely manner. If that trust begins to erode, for whatever reason, that particular house faces serious problems. The biggest houses can survive a little longer because of a broader customer base, but even they will suffer soon enough. For all Bruce's doom & gloom, he's mostly correct on this one. Why would anyone send a consignment to an auction house with a sliding reputation?

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02-11-2009, 08:38 AM

Posted By: NYHighlanderFanNow this is what I call a good topic...I'm glad I'm a collector and not really a seller!!

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02-11-2009, 09:33 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzHere we go! A bit more doom and gloom. ("Only a war can save our asses now.") And then: "We will look for opportunities- but only for the items on America's Toughest Want List" Come one, come all. Step right up, ladies and gents. I'm sure y'all have "opportunities" to offer. Better hurry.

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02-11-2009, 10:17 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanThis is an interesting topic, on point for once, and I'd like not to see it degenerate and get locked. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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02-11-2009, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Rob D.Ditto. Please.

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02-11-2009, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaSo if Mastro falls off the map who takes up the slack? Is there already too much saturation in the hobby that one less house won't even be noticed?

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02-11-2009, 11:44 AM

Posted By: JohnnyHThis is a very interesting topic. I don't really think the economy can be blamed for any houses going under, bad business and poor customer service sounds like the the real culprit. One thing I think this says is that maybe the hobby is not growing. It only takes 2 people who want a card to make a great sale. If someone has a bad experience and wont deal with a particular house or seller the results can end up catastrophic in the terms of final price. I don't think that the economy has that big of an effect on the average collector, but wonder how age factors in this equation as many bigtime collectors are near retirement or retired and some may have just lost a huge chunk of their nest egg and cards may have to take a backseat. I do think some major collections will be sold due to layoffs and property and business failures but many buyers will be waiting with the cash. It seems like true collectors are being replaced by card daytraders with no real regards to the hobby and it is slowly taking a toll. On a side note, silver may go to 30.00 soon but wont last if it does and it also weighs a ton......

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02-11-2009, 11:55 AM

Posted By: Rob D.Brockelman & Luckey Auctions open for business in mid 2008. Rumors of the demise of Mastro Auctions peak in early 2009. Coincidence? I think not.

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02-11-2009, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Scott Mt. JoyI already felt there were too many and I dont think 1-3 failing even if they are the biggest will make any difference on the market. I honestly think houses like REA, Sloate, B & L and a few others are in a great position to expand if any do fail. They have done what the others have not and that is I trust them. In the long run- good companies prosper, bad companies fail.

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02-11-2009, 12:21 PM

Posted By: David Atkatz"In the long run- good companies prosper, bad companies fail." Would that the world were that simple.

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02-11-2009, 12:29 PM

Posted By: barrysloateScott- appreciate the support but right now I am on hiatus, and not sure when or if I will do another.

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02-11-2009, 02:15 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanJim Vb you stated.....All auction house business is built on trust. Consignors trust that lots they send in will be cared for, represented well in the auction, and, after the auction ends, payment will be timely. Dude are you serious? Anyone that goes to high end auctions or are around high end auction houses know that what they are built on is generally DEATH. When folks die or are sometimes near death then the estate has to be settled,some estates contain rare art,baseball cards,furniture,silver,glass,jewelry and it generally goes to auction. Most folks also know that the attorneys are in bed with auctioneers and kick certain estates to different auction houses based on compensation through percentages which is under the table. While all auction houses do generally mix in consignments along with estate goods most consignors know that finding a trustworthy auctioneer is impossible. I get phone calls from certain auctioneers requesting goods when they know that my consignment will enhance their estate sale and i just crack up when they say okay up for sale is this wonderful sterling silver tea set that was found packed away in the attic, ahhhhh it was not in the attic folks. The only reason i do not get F'ed with is because once when a local auctioneeer tried to burn down a vase i put in the sale i walked up and grabbed it from the runner and threw it against the back wall before it got to the buyer he was in bed with LMFAO. I'm not proud of the incident but word got around so no one has tried to burn me since and folks no longer go to his auction house and his business has damn near folded up. America was built on free enterprise so only the strong will survive so i say let the games begin. If you want your business to be successful then start thinking outside the box and start providing special incentives for folks like here is a idea. If i currently owned a auction house then here is what i would do as a special offer. I would pick out a Hall of Famer that everyone respected and say anyone bidding in this auction that wins a lot gets their name placed on a ticket, the more lots you win the more tickets go into the hat. When the auction is over then i would pull out a ticket and the winner would recieve a free graded rookie card of the hall of famer,not a low grade either and also a signed ball and bat from the Hall of Famer. Treat customers with appreciation and give them bonuses and then check your ROI the following year.

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02-11-2009, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Rob D.<img src="http://lifestylescribe.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/tv-white-noise.gif" alt="[linked image]">

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02-11-2009, 02:31 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI like to offer my bidders a deluxe Domino's Pizza with two free toppings of their choice. For consignors I may even throw in a tasty beverage to go with it.

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02-11-2009, 02:46 PM

Posted By: Jim VB"Dude are you serious?" Totally. "...what they are built on is generally DEATH." Very few consignors, and almost NONE of this board's readers, are dead. Living consignors often have trust in the auction house they choose. The mere act of packaging up your cards, sending them somewhere and then waiting months for your money, implies trust. "...i walked up and grabbed it from the runner and threw it against the back wall before it got to the buyer he was in bed with..." Great story. Wish I'd been there. I can see how it relates to... Oh wait... It actually has nothing to do with auction houses doing business through catalogs and the internet. Great story, anyway. "If you want your business to be successful...(followed by line after line of an infantile marketing idea.)" I seriously doubt anyone would bid harder and higher on the off chance that they MIGHT win an autographed item. This is the gambler in you talking, not the collector. On a side note, you would be taken more seriously if you were able to communicate inside the norms of the English language concerning grammar, usage, spelling, and punctuation. I'm not talking about the occasional typo. Everyone makes those (even Barry had a "there/their" yesterday.) I'm talking about line after line that is almost indecipherable.

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02-11-2009, 02:48 PM

Posted By: leonIf Mastro is having issues I don't think B and L Auctions is doing it. I think it could be the packing tape. And what the hell is your blinking magic-looking thingy?

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02-11-2009, 03:01 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI know Jim...I was mortified. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Marshall does seem to have a bizarre story for almost every occasion. I don't know how one person can pack so much excitement into a day.

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02-11-2009, 03:06 PM

Posted By: JDRUMYou've got to get up real early!

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02-11-2009, 03:07 PM

Posted By: Jim VBBarry, It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-11-2009, 03:08 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaRob, it's not too late to pick up one of those digital converter boxes.

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02-11-2009, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Jim VB"You've got to get up real early!" Jeff, I think Barry gets up plenty early. I think it's more likely you have to stay up later.

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02-11-2009, 03:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloateUp at 5:30, breakfast at 5:45. Seven days a week.

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02-11-2009, 03:52 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittthe NOIZ level is not high enough here, that's what Marshall's here for...... I would venture to say that no more than 5-10% of any given large Mastronet or REA auction is due to DEATH. If even that much. Yeah....there's the occasional player's holdings or a hobby icon selling off after death but the VAST (repeat VAST) majority is dudes like all of us consigning to these auction houses along with dealers consigning. If you've ever been to the National, you will always see Bill Mastro and the minions out chatting up all the dealers trying to get them to put items--specific items--into their auction. It's not like your run of the mill estate sale that you schlep out to on a Saturday morning--those ARE due to DEATH quite frequently. Anyway....it'll be interesting to see what shakes out over the next few weeks and months.......

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02-11-2009, 04:25 PM

Posted By: marshall barkman Auction houses are built on greed and the ability to talk and sell to whoever is front of them. Whether a consignor or estate rep the auction house has to sell them on why to use their service. I am not lumping in the smaller auction houses where the owners do not use the auction house as it's only way to make a living. I do apologize for my english and typing skills lol.

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02-11-2009, 04:25 PM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyRob, thanks for bringing the [white] noise!! -Rhett

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02-11-2009, 04:32 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanWell Barry there is not much to say other than the things i say are true and i'm just not the diplomatic politically correct guy. Instead of contacting my attorney or confronting a auctioneer and claim he tried to pool my vase, i would rather stand up walk to the front and grab the vase off the tray from the runner and fire it into the back wall basically saying now you can have the vase you bunch of SOB's.

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02-11-2009, 04:37 PM

Posted By: John"I like to offer my bidders a deluxe Domino's Pizza with two free toppings of their choice. For consignors I may even throw in a tasty beverage to go with it." Can I duplicate toppings Barry??? If so when is the next auction? Also I think all of us have won a few lots in the last auction any chance for retroactive goodies..not a whole pie but perhaps cheesy bread or something?

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02-11-2009, 04:40 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanWell gents i gotta roll. Mookie's Brother is live tonight in the 8th race at Charlestown Race Track and is ready to fire. If he shakes loose on the engine then head to the window.

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02-11-2009, 04:59 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthI do apologize for my english and typing skills lol. You have far more to apologize for than that. But it's all good!

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02-11-2009, 05:12 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI hear you Marshall...I prefer to bring on the PEACE and QUIET!!!

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02-11-2009, 05:15 PM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieBarry,You are the yin and Marshall is the yang.Both vitally important! marty

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02-11-2009, 05:18 PM

Posted By: MikeGot my Mastro Catalog in the mail today ( 15 cents postage due). Anybody else have their's delivered with inadequate postage ?

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02-11-2009, 05:56 PM

Posted By: AndrewA recession is when you're waiting for a consignment check from an October auction and the auction house has the balls to send you their latest catalog. A deepening recession is when said auction house does not return your phone calls or emails regarding the aforementioned scenario. "Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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02-11-2009, 08:44 PM

Posted By: marshall barkman2nd by a nose 5.40 3.00 Mookie ran his eyeballs out!

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02-11-2009, 09:14 PM

Posted By: mark s.gotta say marshall, that 9-2 on the "lone f" was a gift! unfortunate that he got caught on the wire by the post-time favorite... did you cash any exotic tix as savers?

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02-12-2009, 01:48 AM

Posted By: Sean Cbut if it arrives with postage due, it's getting refused. Don't they normally ship them FedEx? I know the big ones usually arrive that way.

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02-12-2009, 05:23 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI pounded the horse 200 across the board and the horse was 8 to 1 and immediatly went to 5 to 1 (lol). Also i had a 50 dollar exacta because i played a 50 dollar exacta box 2/3,7 and i had a 10 dollar tri box 2,3,7 which is all i could see in the race.

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02-12-2009, 06:11 AM

Posted By: MikeI am curious as to the state of mind of those who will be bidding on the upcoming Mastro auction. I personally would have a hard time sending my money, for lots that have been won, to a company that has all of these rumours swirling around. Is there some kind of safeguard for this type of scenario in the U.S.? Regards, Mike in Canada

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02-12-2009, 06:14 AM

Posted By: leonI am sure I will be bidding in the auction. There is at least one or two cards I have my eye on. IF there is some kind of financial situation I don't think buying a card from them is going to pose an issue. They have the card, you send money if you win, they send the card. Best regards

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02-12-2009, 06:28 AM

Posted By: AlanHere's the answer with bidding in auction houses: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=202o_JS7E04&feature=related" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=202o_JS7E04&feature=related</a>

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02-12-2009, 06:34 AM

Posted By: MattWould one of the lawyers (or someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn) please check over Mastro's terms and clarify what happens if a bidder should win a lot, send in his money and then Mastro goes under? Is there risk of the card being seized or would it definitely be delivered to the winning bidder? <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/mwieder" rel="nofollow">My Trade/Sale Page</a>

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02-12-2009, 07:03 AM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthI think this is simply a situation of applying common sense. If a company is going out of business or you suspect they are why would you go into a transaction where you might have to rely on a lawyer to resolve the situation? If the risk is that great but the company has goods that you want, it would make sense to walk into their place of business and exchange payment for the goods. No offense to the lawyers but even they will tell you that having to hire them to make you whole comes with a cost, sometimes greater than what you might be owed. Greg

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02-12-2009, 11:21 AM

Posted By: RedI guess you have to be careful with any business that you entrust with your money or merchandise. To add to the panic and hysteria, what happens to the money and stuff in your bank when they go under. Hopefully these guys will still be around to help you with some newly printed cash, <a href="http://www.fdic.gov/deposit/Deposits/insured/index.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.fdic.gov/deposit/Deposits/insured/index.html</a> But what about the stuff in your safe-deposit boxes. Empty out your safe-deposit boxes and send it all to an auction house now. Empty out your bank accounts and start buying everything in sight with an auction house now. It's the only way to save the auction houses and the baseball card economy.

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02-12-2009, 01:28 PM

Posted By: NickMlet Coaches' Corner be one of the auctioneers that goes under.

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02-12-2009, 02:26 PM

Posted By: JoannGreg is dead on with saying that if you think you might need a lawyer to complete a transaction with an auction house, then it should be dead before it starts. I had this great professor for my Sales and Negotiable Instruments class - kind of an old-timer. He always always said "Plaintiffs are losers". Every week. "Plaintiffs are losers." His reasoning was that plaintiffs have to bring the argument, usually has burdens of proof, etc etc. But most of all, he said plaintiffs are losers because if a plaintiff is a plaintiff, it means he got himself into a bad deal and needs a lawyer and possible court action to fix it. Just the fact that he got himself into a situation that needed a lawyer to get him out makes him a loser because of the extra costs he will incur to resolve it. I'm not sure if the lawyers here would agree with that, but it always made me smile when he said it. J

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02-12-2009, 03:41 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI am suprised at how many folks want to bid on items at Mastro's next auction after all the drama. Would you kiss a girl with a cold sore?

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02-12-2009, 03:51 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSo should we assume that with all the people not bidding in the auction, there will be bargains galore?

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02-12-2009, 04:08 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI suppose it depends on how much shill bidding goes on.

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02-12-2009, 04:11 PM

Posted By: Eric BWould one of the lawyers (or someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn) please check over Mastro's terms and clarify what happens if a bidder should win a lot, send in his money and then Mastro goes under? Is there risk of the card being seized or would it definitely be delivered to the winning bidder? That's a good question Matt. If you were to pay for a service, and the company goes under, you are out the money. But if you pay for an item, then you have Title to that item.....except that so does the Consigner if he hasn't been paid. But I bet the Consigner has better legal recourse since he is the Owner UNTIL he gets paid (definition of to consign). So Barry, I'm not so sure it's a bargain. I wouldn't bid unless I could work out a in-person switch of payment and item. Even then, if the company goes under, and the cash doesn't get to the Consigner, you will have to return the item. There was an article recently about folks buying used cars from Dealers who never paid off the loan from the trade-in. The courts took the car from the buyer and they were out the money since the Dealer had gone bankrupt - the lienholder (similar to consigner in this case) had all the rights. I think I just answered Matt's question. The buyer would be out the cash AND even if he was to receive the goods, he would have to return it and file a non-secured claim. So it may be safe to consign to an Auction House, but not to buy. But who would consign to a Auction House with no buyers? Mastronet is Dead unless they can post collateral to a 3rd party.

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02-12-2009, 04:13 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanBelieve me if they can possibly find a way to schill items they will continue to fire away.

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02-12-2009, 04:31 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI can assure you if there are potential bargains still out there on the last night, people will be bidding. It's kind of a risk/reward scenario: I might lose my money, but I could also get a really good deal.

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02-12-2009, 04:32 PM

Posted By: leonSounds like I will be getting some great deals...

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02-12-2009, 04:33 PM

Posted By: randhere is my thought. mastro is owned by a private equity company. this company may have taken some huge hits with the stock market and banking situation. Mastro is a cash cow and they could be draining the accounts and telling mastro officers to figure it out. it may be or become a ponzi scheme. so it may be out of doug's hands somewhat. i am sure the officers of the company are paid very well, the building they reside in is not cheap, and perhaps Mastro's credit line was greatly reduced. so, maybe this has some truth to it????

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02-12-2009, 04:54 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWhoever said buy it and pick it up is onto something. If you have doubts and you know somweone who lives nead Chicago, Los Angeles or Denver the ask them to pick it up and send it to you.

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02-12-2009, 05:15 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWouldn't you think if someone from Mastro is reading this thread, they would come on the board and assure everybody they can bid with confidence?

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02-12-2009, 05:21 PM

Posted By: Rob D.If I were a consignor to Mastro's current auction and saw this thread, I'd be strongly suggesting to them that they step up and publicly offer some assurances. On a related note, I was wondering today what the over/under will be on the number of lots withdrawn.

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02-12-2009, 05:38 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI would have at least expected to be firmly chastised by Doug on the board by now. That always did wonders to shake my strongly-held beliefs about Mastro. Ok, maybe not.

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02-12-2009, 05:53 PM

Posted By: AlanWill they still have their annual summer auction on that Friday night during the National ?

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02-12-2009, 05:56 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Alan, that might be a little like asking, as water continues to flood the Titanic, whether there still will be a captain's dinner on the last night of the cruise.

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02-12-2009, 06:10 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI am still waiting for the earth shattering hobby bomb the dorskind group is about to drop.

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02-12-2009, 06:10 PM

Posted By: JamieI'm going after the Latrell Sprewell game-worn jersey, so everyone please lay off that one;) Remember, he's got a family to feed... I'm not sure Mastro would take this thread very seriously. It is just out of control speculation, and I seriously doubt that anything will go wrong. It almost borders on slander since it's not really based on fact or truth, just rampant speculation.

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02-12-2009, 06:43 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDamnit, now I'm going to get sued. Sheesh.

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02-12-2009, 07:40 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI'll probably be banned. Wheww it's killing me.

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02-12-2009, 07:44 PM

Posted By: Jim VB"Damnit, now I'm going to get sued. Sheesh." Jeff, Don't you worry about a thing. There are lots of lawyers on this board to protect you. Also, I went to the same high school as Judge Jeanine. Didn't know her as she's a few years older, but I bet I could get her to help you out. Maybe you'd get on her show! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-13-2009, 09:11 AM

Posted By: Josh SiegelI have been hearing some buzz about a Chicago area auction house laying off staff this week. Has anyone else heard this in the past couple of days. I have heard that 15-17 people were involved. Why can't Coaches Corner be the one to go out?

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02-13-2009, 10:51 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanBid? Not bid? Consign? Not consign? I like the folks at Mastro and don't want to see anything bad happen but the stuff I've read is not filling me with that warm confident feeling. If they're late with their checks, that's the end of it for me as a consignor. They've always f****d with their consignors by delaying payment to the end of their 45 day period but to be late on payments as I've heard is the case lately, I would consider a further consignment to them to be a "cheat me once shame on you, cheat me twice, shame on me" situation. As far as those who have stuff there or have items won and paid but not yet received (as will be the case in a few weeks), I'd file a UCC-1 in Illinois to perfect a security interest in the items. That way if they file for bankruptcy at least you should recover the items expeditiously. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc