The enigmatic T206 350/460 series....theory, checklist & backs [Archive]

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01-30-2009, 01:49 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisContinuing from the 150 & 350 Series T206 threads, here are some thoughts on the 350/460 Series cards. This series of 61 cards....31% of which are HOFers (19).....has always been somewhat of an enigma. These cards were printed with more different T-backs (15-25) than any other series of cards in the T206 set. The Red Cobb leads the pack with as many 25 various backs. Initially, the 350 Series was issued as a group of 270 cards by the Spring of 1910. This is evident, in that a complete Sovereign set does not have a "350/460" series. But it does suggest the start of a 350/460 series in that the 6 super-prints were printed with Sovereign 350 and with the Sovereign 460 backs. These 6 Sub- jects are the only 350/460 cards in the Sovereign set. Subsequently, American Lithograph selected 55 more cards from the 270 cards in the 350 series and exten- ded them into the 460 series press runs. Thus, these 55 cards were printed with Piedmont 460 Factory 25 and 42....and, Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 25 and 42. Note, none of these 55 cards are found with "Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 N.Y." backs. These cards were printed with this back; however, never issued since that New York Factory ceased production in 1911 due to the impending ATC break-up. Instead, these Fac- tory 30 backs were overprinted with a scroll & "Factory 42 N.C." as Sweet Cap. production was transferred to the L&M plant in Durham, NC. By extending these 55 cards into the 460 series, they were also inserted into the following 10 cigarette brand packs from late 1910 to early 1911...... American Beauty 460 Broad Leaf 460 Cycle 460 Lenox Piedmont 460/42 Red Hindu Sweet Cap 460/25 Sweet Cap 460/42 overprint Sweet Cap 460/42 Uzit Shown here are 9 of the 19 HOFers in 350/460 Series...... <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a350460majorhofers8.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/cobbsov350.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Checklist......61 cards Ames (hands above head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Chance (yellow potrait).......super-print Chase (blue portrait)..........super-print Chase (dark cap)...............super-print Cobb (red portrait).............super-print Cobb (bat off) Conroy (bat) Davis (A's) Crawford (bat) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding) Evers (bat-yellow sky).........super-print Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Joss (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) Mathewson (dark cap).........super-print McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands/knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (bat) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Tinker (bat off) Wagner (bat on right) White (pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Willis (throwing) Wiltse (throwing) CYoung (glove) Scans of all the backs that are available in this Series will be shown in the next post on this thread. The front/back permutations in this series are mind-boggling....all questions regarding this complex 350/460 Series are welcomed ? TED Z

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01-30-2009, 02:26 PM

Posted By: TimTed, Isn't Buck Herzog Boston National part of this set?

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01-30-2009, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHerzog (Boston) is in the 460-only Series. I will follow this thread with that series next week, TED Z

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01-30-2009, 02:38 PM

Posted By: TimI misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.

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01-30-2009, 03:36 PM

Posted By: Jim RiveraThere is a real weird rule breaker with Nichols bat. It has the no frame 350 AB which means it should belong on this 350/460 list but there is no 460 Nichols bat. All cards on this list (350/460) that were printed with 350 AB have no frame. I know you know the reason why Ted Z. You explain these rules and reasons way better than me.

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01-30-2009, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJIM R As you said, the Simon Nicholls (batting) card is a rule breaker. Referring to the 350 thread, Simon Nicholls (bat) is on the 350 list. Although this card doesn't have a FRAME design with its American Beauty 350 back....as is possible on all the 213 Subjects in the 350 Series. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abt206nichollsbat.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Here is my theory as to why this is.....this Nicholls card was designed to be in the 350/460 Series. As, all 55 cards in this series were printed with the American Beauty 350 (No FRAME) back. However, Nicholls Major League career abruptly ended April 25th 1910, when he was traded to Cleveland. He refused to play there; and, went back to his farm in Maryland. Jack Dunn, Mgr. of Baltimore (Eastern Lge.) contacted Nicholls and he continued his baseball career playing and scouting for Jack Dunn. Therefore, having been designed for the 350/460 series, the Nicholls card was never exten- ded into the 460 series. So, since Nicholls is not found with a 460 back, this card has been classified as a 350 Series card. But, I'm convinced that this card was the 56th card intended for the 350/460 Series. TED Z

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01-30-2009, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisShown here are 12 of the 24 possible backs that the 350/460 Series cards can be found with. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/array12backs350460.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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01-30-2009, 07:02 PM

Posted By: Jim RiveraI think you have forgot more than I will ever know. Your posts are truly great reading. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I knew the part about Nicholls refusing to play after the trade but not about scoting and playing for Dunn. You know how I like the history of the Baltimore team and Jack Dunn. One more fact to add-his name is spelled 2 different ways on each 206 card. One l and 2 ls and I have no clue why. This does happen more than a few times in the set. JR

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01-30-2009, 07:04 PM

Posted By: Bob ManningTed: Will you please scan and post a Piedmont 460 back? I have over 600 T206s and have never seen one. Thanks. Bob

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01-31-2009, 12:26 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisMy understanding is that the double-L spelling is correct. The T206 designers spelled his name correctly in his 1st series card and then they misspelled his name in the 2nd series card. Here is the link to a really nice write-up on Simon Nicholls from SABR...... <a href="http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=15&pid=10382" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=15&pid=10382</a> Best regards, TED Z

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01-31-2009, 03:20 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieAlways fun to read your post Ted.. thanks again.When are you gonna put all your research to pen (print)? Marty

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01-31-2009, 05:00 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere you go guy....the very rare PIEDMONT 460 "Factory 42, 4th Dist., N.C." back. The blue printing is lighter on this back than the normal Factory 25 backs. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bp46042-1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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01-31-2009, 07:29 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere are the other HOFers in the 350/460 Series...... <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a350460minorhofers9.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Whoops....I think I left one out. This scan and the 1st scan do not total 19 HOFers ? Who can guess the 19th HOFer ? ? TED Z

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01-31-2009, 07:35 AM

Posted By: Jim RiveraTinker bat on is the missing HOFer.

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01-31-2009, 09:07 AM

Posted By: Bob ManningTed; Thanks. I'd about concluded it was shorthand for 350-460. Like this: <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1233421471.GIF" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1233421491.GIF" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1233421511.GIF" alt="[linked image]"> Thanks again. Bob

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01-31-2009, 10:41 AM

Posted By: DonI was looking at the "Super Set" thread plus these 150/350/350-460 threads and I'm not sure I follow the math. Specifically piedmont. Super set says there are 462 subjects with the piedmont 350 back. That obviously would have to include 150/350 and 350/460 subjects as well as SLers. Looking at these threads though, I didn't come up with 462 but probably didn't add them correctly either. What's the breakdown for piedmont 350 backs as far as numbers in each series: 150/350, 350 only, 350/460, and SL? Thanks,

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01-31-2009, 01:55 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere is the math....to arrive at a maximum of 459 possible PIEDMONT 350 backs: 141....of the 156 cards in the 150/350 Series (-Magie, -Plank, -Wagner, -12 "150-only" cards) 270....all of the cards in the 350 and 350/460 Series .48....the 48 Southern Leaguers ---- 459 TED Z

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01-31-2009, 02:02 PM

Posted By: DonThanks Ted. I enjoy your research posts. Keep 'em coming.

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01-31-2009, 05:50 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe term "6 super-prints" has been noted several times in this thread. For those unfamiliar with these T206 cards....they are the most available cards in the T206 set. And, can be found with as many as 24 different T-backs...... <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a6superprints.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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01-31-2009, 07:06 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNope, it's not that Tinker....he is in the 460-only Series. Anyhow, Tinker is already represented with his "bat off shoulder" pose in this 350/460 series. Try again ? TED Z

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01-31-2009, 07:24 PM

Posted By: J Hull<img src="http://jimonym.com/Griffith.jpg" alt="Griffith.jpg">

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01-31-2009, 07:41 PM

Posted By: Jim RiveraMy Tinker bat on is Lenox but I thought it was avalible with 350 backs. So my next guess would be Griffith bat.

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01-31-2009, 07:44 PM

Posted By: Jim RiveraWhen I was doing my research Mr. Hull beat me to it.

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02-01-2009, 06:39 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisGriffith (bat) is the 19th HOFer in the 350/460 Series. Jamie, Thanks for posting your scan of him. I forgot to post mine in the last array of 9 Hofer's. TED Z

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02-01-2009, 08:18 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisVery IMPORTANT to note here. The following 7 backs are additional ONLY to the six Super-Print cards. These backs are NEVER found with the other 55 cards in the 350/460 Series. The Sweet Caporal back is a Factory 30, NY. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abblcocycbsovsc430.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> The T206 Super-Prints (very appropriately coined by Scot Reader). <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a6superprints.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> With the exception of the American Beauty 350 (no frame) and American Beauty 460 (no frame), the 10 other backs in this array are common to all 55 cards in the 350/460 Series and the 6 super-prints. The American Beauty 350 (with frame) back was printed on the 6 super-prints. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/array12backs350460.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Here, I have displayed the tougher 18 of the 24 different backs found in the 350/460 Series cards. For the sake of completeness, in a following post the remaining backs will be shown. P.S.....I included that 1910 COUPON back just to "bug" Leon.....but, you know what guys and gals, actually the 6 super-prints are also in this COUPON set....these 6 images are all over the place <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> TED Z

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02-02-2009, 01:05 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere is one more very tough 350/460 Series back...... Lee Behrens is our guy here, as I believe he has a near complete CYCLE 460 sub-set. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/cycle460donlinbk.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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02-03-2009, 12:31 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe following T-backs complete the list of all possible backs available on the cards in the 350/460 Series...... BROAD LEAF 460 OLD MILL PIEDMONT 350 Fac. 25 PIEDMONT 460 Fac. 25 SWEET CAP 350 Fac. 25 SWEET CAP 350 Fac. 30 SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 25 SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 42 In summary, as illustrated in the above posted scans, a grand total of 21 different backs are possible on the 55 regular cards in the 350/460 Series. Furthermore, a grand total of 25 different backs are possible on the 6 super-print cards in the 350/460 Series. Finally, let's consider the extremely rare BROAD LEAF 460 back. Approximately 50% of the cards in the 350/460 Series can be found with the BL 460 back. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/broadleaf460back.jpg" alt="[linked image]">" Here are the confirmed BL 460 cards...... Baker M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Cobb (red portrait)....................super-print Cobb (bat off) Davis (A's) Dougherty (arms in air) Downey (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Evers (Chicago-bat)...................super-print Griffith (bat) Johnson (pitching Joss (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Mathewson (dark cap)................super-print McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hds/knees) Reulbach (glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (fielding) Stahl (glove) Street (catching) Sweeney (New York) Willis (throwing) CYoung (glove) If anyone has any new inputs to add to this BROAD LEAF 460 list, please post it here ? We are always looking for more of these rare gems. TED Z

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02-05-2009, 12:06 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisConsolidated BROAD LEAF 460 info into above post. TED Z

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02-05-2009, 04:33 AM

Posted By: TimTed- Are there confirmed lists for the 460 series for other backs like the BL460 you posted above? Uzit, Lenox, Cycle 460, etc? Sorry if I'm jumping ahead. I'm working on Herzog (Boston) and wondering if I'm chasing a few ghosts.

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02-05-2009, 07:32 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTIM The Herzog (Boston) card is in the 460-only Series; and, there is a very low probability that it was printed on a BROAD LEAF 460 back. Check out....my 460-only thread were I note that the only BROAD LEAF 460 card that has been confirmed is Kleinow (Boston). And, a possible Schaefer (Washington) card exists with the BL 460 back. Anyhow, Herzog has been confirmed with the following backs...... CYCLE 460 EPDG OLD MILL PIEDMONT 460 Fac. 25 POLAR BEAR SOVEREIGN 460 SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 25 SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 30 SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 42 SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 42 (overprint) TOLSTOI Also, there could be a LENOX and a UZIT. TED Z

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02-06-2009, 05:06 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe very rare DRUM backs can be found on the following 350/460 Subjects (39 cards) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Burch (fielding) Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Cobb (bat off) Crawford (bat) Doolan (bat) Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Wash-fielding) Evers (bat-yellow sky) Griffith (bat) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (glove at chest) Jordan (bat) Konetchy (glove low) Lake (St Louis-no ball) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) Mathewson (dark cap) McQuillan (bat) Murphy (bat) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Seymour (throwing) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (New York) Wagner (bat/right shoulder) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) Any new inputs to add to this list are greatly appreciated. TED Z

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02-10-2009, 09:49 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisOnly one card remains unconfirmed.....Tinker (bat off shoulder) Ames (hands above head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Chance (yellow potrait).......super-print Chase (blue portrait)..........super-print Chase (dark cap)...............super-print Cobb (red portrait).............super-print Cobb (bat off) Conroy (bat) Davis (A's) Crawford (bat) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding) Evers (bat-yellow sky).........super-print Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Joss (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) Mathewson (dark cap).........super-print McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands/knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (bat) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Wagner (bat on right) White (pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Willis (throwing) Wiltse (throwing) CYoung (glove) TED Z

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02-11-2009, 12:38 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisOK.....54 of the 55 cards in the 350/460 Series have been confirmed, let's see if we can find this 55th card with this rare back. T-Rex TED