should dealers disclose paper loss, writing and water damage? [Archive]

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01-30-2009, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Eric S.I recently purchased a card through a reputable website that gave a grading and a front view of the card. The site listed the back as being a SC350 but did not give an image. When I got it in the mail discovered it had substantial back damage. Should a supposed reputable dealer disclose that there is paper loss on a card or are they only responsible to tell you it is graded "pr"? I feel that paper loss, writing and water damage are items that should be disclosed, regardless of the grading. Thoughts?

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01-30-2009, 06:15 PM

Posted By: Tim SandersTo me it really depends - nothing gets my goat more than when a dealer lists a card as VG (prices it that way) and in the same breath lists paper loss and/or writing. If he however lists it poor to fair expect the worst and be happy if there is no paper loss. The only time I would be concerned is in the example of a tough back- why sell a Carolina Brights back if the back is shredded and that's not disclosed- in other words don't sell for the premium if that's where it's messed up!

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01-30-2009, 06:34 PM

Posted By: AnonymousIn answer to question: Yes.

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01-30-2009, 06:35 PM

Posted By: Fred CEric, Many dealers don't offer a return on "graded" cards because they feel that the number on the label should be indicative of the condition of the card. With grading be "subjective" (and the subjectivity could change from day to day, mood to mood, and/or grader to grader) I would never rely on a number on a label. If I'm really interested in a card I'd ask for full scans (front/back) and a written description. Would I be disappointed if I received a card without disclosure of damage that wasn't shown? Yes.

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01-30-2009, 06:41 PM

Posted By: Eric BIn this case, probably not. A poor card clearly can have back paper loss. You probably should have asked first before bidding, if that matters to you. I always provide a supersized front and back scan. So everything is out in the open.

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01-30-2009, 07:09 PM

Posted By: joeWhen grading just started I did not worry about the backs, but now I will show a scan of the back and describe any problems. Yes. Joe Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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01-30-2009, 07:19 PM

Posted By: SteveRegardless of what grade a card was given all severe flaws should be noted. They include, writing, stains and paper loss. Severe OC reverses should be notes as well. Steve Edited to add: Not only dealers but all sellers should be held to this practice.

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01-31-2009, 06:07 AM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}Is there a way to remove water spots? Rob

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01-31-2009, 06:30 AM

Posted By: Jeff KI recently bought an fairly expensive PSA 6 card that turned out to have print loss on the back. Would have been nice if the seller mentioned it. Would also have been nice if PSA didn't put EX/MT grades on cards with print loss....so I'm equally disappointed with the seller and with PSA. Won't make the same mistake again...

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01-31-2009, 06:41 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldRobert, Water spots can be addressed with some cards, depends on the cards. T222 Fatima's NO!!! T206's yes, soak in a glass of water for a few hours, then gently blot. Allow it to air dry for 10 to 15 minutes, then press it between paper, several sheets folded, stack up some books on it. Change the paper after a bit. Some cards will soak, some won't. Water spots will go away, some other spots won't.

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01-31-2009, 06:47 AM

Posted By: StevePrint loss? Are you saying that the printing was not complete? If so, I could see a card still receive a grade of 6 if it was net graded down from a higher grade because of the print loss. With that said I'd also appreciate a seller that would show the defect or describe it. Steve

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01-31-2009, 07:41 AM

Posted By: leonAlways give BIG scans of front and back and ALWAYS mention any issues that can't be seen from a scan. My motto " no surprises ".....so the answer is an emphatic "YES".....everything should be disclosed. As far as if a card has been bumped up or not, I am on the fence. If the grade went from a 30 to a 40, I am not sure that, in itself, needs to be disclosed....regards

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01-31-2009, 07:43 AM

Posted By: RedIf you're at all picky about what kind of defects are on a card that make up the grade then ask questions and get additional pictures before you buy the card. If it's not important enough to you to obtain this info before you buy then why should the seller bother wasting time describing things that are usually clearly seen in the picture they have up. No picture of the back? Then ask for one. Don't waste your time and their time by not asking for a picture of the back and then returning the card because it has something on the back that you don't like. I'd much rather look at a picture to see for myself rather than rely on an owner's ability to see and describe all the problems on a card they're selling. If you're buying without pictures and relying only on how somebody else grades the card then unhappy purchases will be as common as they were pre-internet and pre-grading.

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01-31-2009, 07:58 AM

Posted By: dennisshould dealers disclose paper loss, writing and water damage? yes,and add creases too if they do not they are deliberately hiding these defects in order to make more $$$ on the sale.

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01-31-2009, 09:20 AM

Posted By: Mark LutzI think that paper loss, punch holes, and writing should be disclosed along with the grade. These very serious defects really have to be mentioned if the description is going to be complete. If the dealer doesn't mention them, the seller should always be able to return the card.

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01-31-2009, 09:21 AM

Posted By: SteveRed the problem with your logic is simply many times a buyer can't see every defect from a scan. A seller should be honest enough to describe any serious flaws. With that said yes I agree with you buyers should ask more questions too. I'm not of the opinion that a seller should note that a card was bumped. Steve

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01-31-2009, 09:55 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanIf there are clear scans of both sides of the card, there is no need to say what can be seen from the images. I would even go so far as to say that even a slabbed card with that sort of damage should have it specified or shown. It isn't enough for me to simply say "1" without showing the back, if back damage is the problem. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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01-31-2009, 04:53 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldYes. And they should be willing to give full refunds.

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01-31-2009, 04:59 PM

Posted By: Jeff KJust to clarify, the PSA 6 mentioned earlier had print loss on the back from a scrape or paper pull. Back damage. Also, the seller did not include a scan of the back of the card. If the seller had included a scan of the back, and I missed the damage, then I would have had only myself to blame. Anyway, I'm sure most of the collectors on this board have been down this road. You buy a card, it's a good card, you like the card, you just overpaid for it because you had too much confidence in a particular seller or a particular grading company.

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01-31-2009, 05:37 PM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}This is the card I am talking about. Do you think the stain can come out? Rob PS I know this is not a perwar card but I figured since we were talking about removing water spots I would ask.<img alt="b3e7_1-1.jpg picture by RBalke2617" src="http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t199/RBalke2617/b3e7_1-1.jpg?t=1233452159">

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02-09-2009, 02:21 PM

Posted By: NickMbut if the card is raw and the seller calls it poor, I would specifically ask about any flaw I consider disqualifying. The seller isn't overgrading the card. It's poor.