Wow ! the cost of finding out values, Is It Wasted $$ [Archive]

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02-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldPersonally, NO, not worth it. Spend $180 on a T206 HOFer, ungraded. Then, in a few years, you'll be much happier that you bought the card, instead of subscribing to something ethereal. And there's not that much shilling, but a bit. So watch eBay auctions, and the traditional auctions, be one of the underbidders a few times on whatever it is that interests you, then you'll get a feel for what the market prices are. I am in favor of spending the dollars every year, or every other year, for the Standard Catalog, that is a fine publication.

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02-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Posted By: ErikV Waste of money? I dunno. I use them. Simply put these services provide consumers additional information to make an educated and sound decision as to the current market value of an item. Granted, some of these services are better than others. I'm one who believes in doing my homework and gathering as much information before I make any purchase - especially for an occasional large purchase! ErikV

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02-01-2009, 12:26 PM

Posted By: SteveI also don't need or use VCP. Is it $ wasted? Not for many that do use it I suppose. Steve

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02-01-2009, 12:30 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesit is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it !

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02-01-2009, 12:33 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackHow much you pay depends on how others price it. Competing bidders, or lack thereof, and their ideas of value have direct effect on the amount you write on the check. Further, people's 'willing to pay' numbers are derived, in part, from the sales and auctions prices they have observed. Even a collector who is conscious of willing to pay more or less than the going rate is conscious of the going rate.

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02-01-2009, 12:33 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI don't subscribe to VCP, but the free sections are very useful to me. I'm not so much interested in the value of a card as I'll determine myself how much I want to pay for something. I prefer cards to be ungraded anyway, but I like that I can go to VCP just to see if something exists or to pull up a list of available cards for a certain player. I do see how it can be a valuable tool for collectors of graded cards and flippers/dealers.

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02-01-2009, 12:46 PM

Posted By: Steve DawsonI can't speak to the value of VCP since I don't subscribe to it, but as far as PSA goes, you get six free submissions with your annual fee, and this year, they gave all members a coffee table-sized book "Collecting Sports Legends". All-in-all, at least in my opinion, you get your money back and then some with PSA. Steve

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02-01-2009, 01:09 PM

Posted By: leonI guess for all transperancy I should say that Bobby (VCP) is an advertiser. I think most folks know that anyway, though his banner is only on the BST side of things. My last statement about ONLY relying on a guide is what I meant to say....however, I would be remiss if I didn't also say that I feel, a great majority of prices, are accurate. My comment was meant more so that people will keep their eyes open, no matter what. If you do much collecting, or buying and selling, then VCP will pay for itself multiple times over the course of a year. It has saved me much more than that....best regards

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02-01-2009, 01:26 PM

Posted By: Rob D.And there's not that much shilling, but a bit. Frank, How do you know this is true? Thanks.

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02-01-2009, 01:32 PM

Posted By: AlI think this issue revolves around what you collect, how much you pay for cards and how much information are you willing to pay for. I believe VCP gives me plenty of bang for buck. In addition to looking up cards, I have created several "want" lists, which, when a card comes up at a bunch of different places, I get an email telling me about it. This saves a TON of searching. Additionally, I can create my own collection list, which shows me trends in sales patterns to give me a general idea of market conditions. VCP is really the way to go for me. SMR is really a useless rag. True, when you re-up you get 6 free submssions, this assumes you are a raw collector, otherwise you'd have to be a crack-out and submit person to get value from the freebies. I've not gotten the coffee table book, but I understand it is very well done. I think the SMR values stated over and over AD NAUSEUM, year after year after year, are simply not valid. Try as I might to bring this to the highest person in PSA, it has done no good, nada, zip, zero. It is sad to read how they tout about "scouring" sales, auctions, blah, blah, but I see almost little change in the set I am primarily interested in, which is the 55 Topps baseball set. Year after weary year, the SMR has shown card #3, Art Fowler in a PSA 8 to have a value of $80, GL finding one for less than a grand. This is just one example in the set, there are many others. With VCP, I believe there are two levels of membership, Gold and Silver. I only go for the Silver option. While VCP is not the be all, end all to information, what is available in VCP is clearly light-years ahead of the rather dubious, if not down right useless data found in SMR. One would think they would really improve in this area, but I've seen almost no viable changes to their publication in a long time.

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02-01-2009, 01:32 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRob, you're going to get sued. Shilling? Are you kidding me? Of course not. Especailly not on the raw cards. As for VCP, I figure it probably saves me about 10K a year. Granted certain of the prices are inaccurate due to shill bidding creating a false prior sales price, but still, it is very helpful. Like when I see a card on BST for x price and go to VCP and see that it has been sold twice in the past couple years for 15% less -- and I know not to pay the asking price and instead wait for the inevitable price decreases in 5 hours and then again in 10 hours.

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02-01-2009, 01:36 PM

Posted By: JimBVCP has saved me $1000s of dollars on both the buying and selling end. It is an invaluable resource. It is susceptible to the various flaws present in ebay and other auctions, but in general it is an incredibly valuable resource. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED. JimB

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02-01-2009, 01:38 PM

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind We think Vintage Card Prices is an invaluable tool, and one we would view as a bargain at twice the price. Nearly all of the items that we buy are from auctions and/or on E Bay. Vintage Card Prices has saved us thousands of dollars when negotiating with BIN Sellers. Whilst we do not purchase a large number of cards, the average of price of the cards we purchased in 2008 exceeded $850 and more than half the cards purchased cost more than $2000. A 10% savings on one card more than pays for the price of subscription. We have long-recognized that knowledge is power. We are certain that VCP has provided us with a competitive advantage or at very least provides us with knowledge equal to our competitors. If you are going to seriously collect rare baseball cards in top condition Vintage Card Prices is essential. Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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02-01-2009, 01:47 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Wow, I couldn't see Bobby's lips moving at all.

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02-01-2009, 01:52 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldRob, you ask how I KNOW... I don't know, I believe. And if you don't, then I can't assemble sufficient proof so you'll know. Even if some guy admits to bidding on his card once because he was afraid it would sell too low, that would be a belief thing, do you believe he's truthful. Only way you'd KNOW is for you to do it yourself and remember it. For me, I've seen a few auctions on eBay that seemed a bit screwy to me, some I found myself, some that folks here have posted about. I don't think all or most or half of old baseball card eBay auctions have a shill. But I also don't think that none of them ever have had a shill. How could you believe that it has never happened?? Any proof for that??

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02-01-2009, 01:57 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Take a deep breath, big fella. And there's not that much shilling, but a bit. You didn't post that you thought this. You posted it as a statement of fact. I simply asked how you know such as fact. You've now made clear that it was your opinion. Thanks for clarifying that everything you believe/think is not necessarily a fact.

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02-01-2009, 03:13 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldWhat is the deal, Rob??? There is shilling. Sounds like you want there to be some declaration that there isn't. This reminds me of someone who doesn't believe in alcohol or in drinking... I'm here to tell you that alcohol and drinking exists. And so does shilling. I think it. I know it as well as I can. What about you? Do you think it exists? Do you know it does, or know it doesn't??? Take two big, deep breaths and answer, please sir.

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02-01-2009, 03:22 PM

Posted By: TimSpeaking from experience: VCP is a great service for the new collector to vintage cards. Granted the current subscription price is almost twice what it was when I first signed up, however I still feel the amount of research time it saves and the money I save with the information through the course of the year, it is well worth the money. As mentioned before the "Want List" feature is great. That added insurance to keep me from possibly missing a once a year card I really want is worth the money.

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02-01-2009, 03:37 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Frank, I apologize. I did a poor job of making clear what I was asking so you could understand. You stated in the form of a fact, And there's not that much shilling, but a bit. I simply asked -- at least I thought it was a simple question -- how you could know such a fact (again, because you didn't post this as your opinion but rather as a fact. Sorry to be redundant, just trying to be clear). It turns out that you mistakenly posted your opinion as a fact. You did a fine job acknowledging that when I asked. Thank you. As to whether I think there is shilling: It's not really relevant to what I asked you, and if you've ever read -- and understood -- previous posts on the topic of shilling, you would know that I think it's a serious problem in our hobby. Note that I'm giving an opinion and not trying to pass it off as a fact. As to your alcohol reference, that's something else not relevant to this post. I can understand, however, why you want to change the direction of the conversation.

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02-01-2009, 04:35 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldBS Rob... just BS... I asked you in the 4:52 post, and you didn't answer in your responding 4:57 post. You had to be asked twice, and when you finally half-answer you say it isn't relevant. And the alcohol / drinking wasn't subject changing... WHAT do you KNOW, what do you think??? I think we still have folks up on the International Space Station. At 5:33 local time I was in my back yard to see it, my kids think I'm nutz for going out in the twilight to see the ISS or the Space Shuttle... I didn't see it this evening. Don't know why. I'll look again at 7:07, its next local pass. I'll be out looking even if the Super Bowl is at an exciting moment. I think it is still up there, I don't KNOW. I think that the light I'll see to the NW at 23 degrees above the horizon will be the ISS.... I think I'm 54 years old, I don't think my Mom, the hospital folks, and vital statistics have played games with my birth date... but I don't KNOW. So I know I'm 54, and think I'm 54, but may well not KNOW it. There's shilling. And I don't understand why you're so fired up about whatever it is you're upset about. What is the deal??? Please explain or cease fussing about it. After all, everything posted up here is what we think or really believe.

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02-01-2009, 04:44 PM

Posted By: Rob D.I think I'll "cease fussing," podna, lest to provoke any more rants like the above. But, honestly, thank you for clarifying that your statement "And there's not that much shilling, but a bit" was only your opinion and not a fact. There is a difference. Really.

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02-01-2009, 04:50 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellVCP--Could not live without it. If you collect a large number of sets, it becomes an invaluable tool. Best thing for the vintage card collector in years. For PSA their card values not of much use but the pops are--the pop info alone makes it a critical tool...and if you don't subscribe to the SMR you might miss some great articles abbout a New Jersey collector. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-01-2009, 05:01 PM

Posted By: TimI've been following this post and I find your brow beating of Frank over his post absurd. It was obvious he wasn't stating fact, but rather his opinion and you want to call him out when it wasn't even relevant to the discussion at hand. There is already an air to this board that keeps many from posting, if you're going to begin policing peoples intent to their posts and putting everyoneo under the microscope it won't help to broaden this boards particiaption.

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02-01-2009, 05:04 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldRand asked 2 questions... 1- is the service worth it? 2- what about shilling, are the prices real? Now I don't see back up there where anyone, not even the Bruces, proclaimed that their answers were fact based, or opinion. Seems like most folks took a stab at question 1, and a pass on question 2. Rob, you said "I apologize", but after reading and rereading the rest it sure seems (opinion) that it was not sincere. And you didn't answer either of Rand's questions. Finally, you are mistaken if you really thought I misunderstood your question. What I don't understand is what your hangup is about the existence of shilling. If someone who's sold a few cards on eBay has told me that he got a friend to bid on one of his baseball card lots once, I've still got to believe him I can't know for certain. So what if someone KNOWS, to your definition, that shilling has occurred, what then? And why didn't you answer any of Rand's questions? Why did everyone else only answer question 1, and not 2??

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02-01-2009, 05:10 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellAre the prices real? In the vast majority of the cases-well over 99% they are real. Very occasionally there are shill bids--does not change value of what Bobby offers. If you know the pop and the smr, should be able to approximate fair value.

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02-01-2009, 05:11 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldDuck, Jim, Rob leads with his right, mean left hook to follow.

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02-01-2009, 05:28 PM

Posted By: Robert DixonTo me it is. As a new collector, I think VCP has saved me from getting ripped off more than once. Besides, the site is just fun to browse through. On another note: I agree with Tim. I come to this site every day, and it gets a little frustrating seeing some of you old timers textually assault each other.

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02-01-2009, 05:35 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Tim, Actually, the extent to which shilling exists is very relevant to Rand's questions. Whether you think that -- pick a number -- 10 percent, 20 percent, 30 percent or more of eBay and other auctions are shilled would greatly impact how valuable you think a service that reports those results really is. To me, Frank's statement "And there's not that much shilling, but a bit" was presented as a statement of fact. My first post simply asked how he could know that. I thought it was a pretty innocent question. You read Frank's statement as being his opinion. I didn't. If it had been a minor point, I probably wouldn't have asked for him to clarify. But given that it is very germane to the original post, I thought it important to point out the difference between fact and opinion. I will make a point not to question any of Frank's subsequent posts. < Note to self: If Frank says it, it must be true. >>

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02-01-2009, 05:40 PM

Posted By: TimEdited as I was combining two of Franks post.

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02-01-2009, 05:47 PM

Posted By: TimRob D. From reading Franks post do you really think he felt that what he was stating was undeniable fact? Or do you think he was just stating his opinion? You're question may have seemed innocent enough to yourself, but simply asking it was accusitory in nature. And again I'll say it wasn't neccessary. There are so many gray areas in vintage collecting that if we begin to take everyone to task for each statement without a disclaimer of opinion versus fact this board will dry up to nothing.

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02-01-2009, 06:00 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell10, 20, 30--how about one one hundredth of 1%--this is an opinion--it could be two one hundredths of one percent.

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02-01-2009, 06:34 PM

Posted By: MIkeUPersonal opinion is that VCP is worth every single penny. Even if you only buy $500 to $1,000 worth of cards a year, it is likely going to save you the price of admission. As for SMR pricing, IMHO, it is worthless. Now if you get value from the articles (cool New Jersey Collectors) and the free grading, then there is value. However, if you are buying a membership only or primarily for the price guide, then save yourself the money.

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02-01-2009, 06:41 PM

Posted By: Rob D.And there's not that much shilling, but a bit. Frank, How do you know this is true? Thanks. Tim, If this question is accusitory (sic), then you're right: This board will dry up to nothing.

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02-01-2009, 07:02 PM

Posted By: TimReally Rob, you think that Frank saying that there is some shilling but not a lot is some declaration of fact about the exact amount of shilling in the hobby? You could have asked... Frank you stated that you think only a small amount of bids are shilled thus effecting pricing websites, What percentage of bids would you say are shilled and how do they effect overall published pricing? Frank you stated that you think some bids are shilled, do you have any proof that only a few are or that not all are shilled? Regardless of how you ask the question however, you attacked Frank on a side point to anything he was really trying to say which is a cheap shot in my opinion. If you hadn't focused on his statement no one else would have ever given it any more thought.

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02-01-2009, 07:14 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Tim, First my question was accusitory (sic.) Then, I "attacked" Frank. I think I'll bow out now before you file a manslaughter charge. Take care.

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02-01-2009, 07:27 PM

Posted By: TimNow youre just being silly. You hide behind the guise that your question was just to clarify and not an incrimination of Frank. You base your arguments on specific words and give no weight to the substance. You try to hide behind your meekness when it just comes across as smugness. Do I need to clarify anything about my fact or opinion with that last sentence?

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02-01-2009, 08:04 PM

Posted By: Scott Fandangonot knowing the past sale figures of a card you are about to buy is not too wise.... you have to have a basis to start from, you cant say "yeah i like the card so i will spend $500"... what if the card has only sold for $300 the past three sales, but you didnt know that because they were 4 months ago....now you payed $200 more than you should have.... VCP is invaluable as a frequent buyer of cards...it also gives you the date so you can gauge how often they come up... As people have pointed out, not all sales are legit, and not all sales show up on VCP...however that does not negate the sales that are shown... its usually good to throw out the high sale and the low sale anyway when trying to judge the value of a card.... I incorporate the Standard Catalog, VCP and SMR and i feel they are all important tools when purchasing graded cards... to not use all the tools at your disposable certainly will cost you more in the long haul than $160....

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02-01-2009, 08:09 PM

Posted By: randRob D, Rand here, i re-read your posts in this thread, i didnt read an opinion from you about my topic. if you have thoughts on either question please articulate them. if not, kindly refrain from highjacking the topic. personally, i do not know how much shilling goes on, i mentioned it as it is a legitimate part of the equation.

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02-01-2009, 08:16 PM

Posted By: AlI wonder how diluted the pop report has become. If we are to make the fair assumption that "x" number of cards from almost any collection are crack-outs, or will become crack-outs, how is PSA to know how to handle pop data? To be more clear...a person cracks out a card, this card exists as a PSA 7, but the owner thinks it could bump to a PSA 8. The card gets cracked out and is submitted raw. If the card becomes graded as a PSA 7, there are now TWO PSA 7s of that card. If the card gets graded as a PSA 8, the original PSA 7 still exists, and the pop of the 8s has just increased by one. This is an issue only when a PSA tag is cracked and sumbitted to PSA, if it's an SGC to a PSA tag, then there is no issue with the increase in the pop report regardless of the grade. In essence, the card has become cloned. I have not a remote clue how PSA could solve this "problem". If cards are submitted for the half-point consideration, then I'm sure the original grade of the submitted card is reduced by PSA graders (or whomever in PSA), and the .5 is increased. As for shilling, I got dizzy reading that stuff...caveat emptor.

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02-01-2009, 08:27 PM

Posted By: JimBOf course there is shill bidding. How pervasive it is, is mere conjecture. Due to shilling there are some false numbers on VCP. If you have a sense of the sellers, you get to know which ones are trustworthy. Just yesterday I was going through some recent sales on T206 HOFs. There was one seller reporting #s at about 30-40% higher than anybody else on virtually every card he sold. I just disregarded all of his sales and made a note not to bid in his auctions. VCP can help combat falling prey to shillers in this way as well. One has to learn how to use the information intelligently. JimB

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02-01-2009, 08:46 PM

Posted By: CLAUDEI believe you can now get a 24 hour pass to VCP for $3.99. -Claude

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02-01-2009, 09:47 PM

Posted By: Mark LThe pop reports have limited use. It is revealing if it says that only a couple of cards have been graded. Otherwise, it is something of a guess. The pop reports won't be definitive until the grading companies post a scan of each card that is graded and encapsulated, so that we can identify those cards that have been resubmitted ad infinitum. Of course, this is not likely to happen. In the end, the prices realized may be more informative.

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02-02-2009, 05:05 AM

Posted By: JasonI think it would be a great tool for type card collectors or high end cards of popular sets. Its not just the past prices but you can also get an idea of how often cards come up for auction. That said, I don't subscribe to the service but I only collect T205's in specific grades and I know what they cost. Of course, I have taken advantage of the one day subscription (nice touch btw) to get a look at a couple values of cards when I'm unsure.

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02-02-2009, 05:28 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanI must say Rob D that for someone that contantly seeks out opinion or exploits other people's opinion that you really have none . Bro you should go into politics. As for schill bidding everyone knows it does exist and VCP can be misleading. The best way to figure out expensive cards is the pop report because if some of the top five set builders can use the card in a upgrade then watch out because the fireworks will fly. Their is nothing wasted about finding out values of cards if the information is available. It truly comes down to how much you spend. If you spend five figures a year on cards or more then you would be foolish not to have all the necessary information in order to buy correctly. By the way is Larry Fitzgerald a monster or what? That dude can ball baby.

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02-02-2009, 05:42 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanIt isn't a "for sale" listing. I don't know how many times that has to be said before people get it. If the card is scarce, no guide is going to peg a price on it and you will have to pay what the seller is willing to take for the card. VCP's value is directly related to the number of cards available from any given issue. If you are collecting a set that has lots and lots of cards selling regularly, it is useful. If not, it isn't since there either won't be any pricing information (no sales) or the information will be very spotty. SMR is worthless. People on 'ludes should not price cards. It goes from mailbox to trash can inside of ten minutes. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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02-02-2009, 05:53 AM

Posted By: Martin NealI always donate my SMR to the local card shop. Occasionally, I will read what Joe says for the heck of it. It's only worth is the advertising revenue it brings to Psa.

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02-02-2009, 09:56 AM

Posted By: BobAl is spot on in his post that SMRs are worthless because of the number of re-submissions, cracking outs and submitting to a different grading service, etc. I also think Bob P's comment about what a card is worth to you is also apt. Remember the 1911-1912 Zeenut fever that swept through here about a year ago? Now that 4-5 collectors (myself included) obtained the cards they needed the prices have leveled off and with a decreasing demand, prices have returned to normal. Yet if you took the SMRs and also the prices obtained for the last 12 months, you would be disappointed in today's prices if you were a seller and very happy as a buyer...

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02-03-2009, 06:10 AM

Posted By: Scott Fandangowhat does SMR have to do with POP reports and resubmits? they are 2 different things entirely... first POP reports are not useless , althought they may not be 100% accurate... for instance, a pop report will accurately show how many of the highest grade exists.....it will also give you the MAXIMUM number of graded examples, another good barometer... also, the few amount of crackouts and crossovers is very small relative to the entire population, so just because you may have a redundant card (graded twice from a crackout) it doesnt nullify ALL the information... also, if anything, the PSA POP reports are way more useful than SGC because SGC doesnt differentiate variations (which is a huge error i believe on their part) SGC POP report is VERY USELESS for E90-1 specifically..how can you not label the 3 different keeler cards COME ON SGC GET WITH IT! lastly, anyone who argues $99 is not worth it for PSA membership is not too swift....you are basically prepaying for 6 submissions and they give you online access to POP reports (which i believe is useful) and they give you a magazine subscription that is at least worth $20 yearly fee. and is good light reading for lunch break...

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02-03-2009, 06:20 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldLet slow, damn near stationary, me address two aspects of what you have there, Scott F. First, a pop report DOES NOT "accurately show how many of the highest grade exists." It would show how many times they've graded a card at that high grade. Some of the ones they've graded could have been resubmitted or cracked out and left that way. The other matter is that I value $99 MUCH more than I would PSA membership. So I'm not too swift. Absolutely stuck in the mud, mire, and muck. But I think that was known by some... After all, I could buy a worn T206 HOFer for $99, much more fun to have than PSA membership. And for that $99 membership, to get 6 submissions a fellow would pay postage just one way, or both ways??? So to get the 6 submissions it would actually cost more than $99??

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02-03-2009, 06:22 AM

Posted By: marshall barkmanThe SMR can be misleading on pre-war cards at times but there is no doubt that it is a useful tool when trying to gauge cards and their value. If you can buy any card at 40% of SMR then you have made a great buy. Generally cards sell for 50 to 75% of SMR unless it is a rare low pop card. I use the SMR every night when looking at cards. All info is speculative so the card is really worth what someone is willing to pay.

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02-03-2009, 06:56 AM

Posted By: Scott Fandangowhy would someone crack out and resubmit a card THAT IS HIGHEST GRADED? wouldnt happen...they may submit for a bump, but if it is bumped, the pop report is adjusted...

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02-03-2009, 07:19 AM

Posted By: SteveI think Tbob meant to say pop reports and not smr. Also, the pop report can be wrong even for 'highest graded' unless that card is a 10. Some series have highest graded and the card is a 5, so in that case a card could have been resubmitted trying to get it in a 6 holder. With all that said it still has some useful information, just like VCP does. Steve

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02-03-2009, 09:44 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldReasons why... owner doesn't like slabbed cards crack out to cross over crack out to get even higher grade crack out to put in 15 pocket sleeves crack out for ease of storage, a set of 520 T206s take up about as much space as 6 slabbed T206s And if none of those possibilities are acceptable, if a 'highest graded' slab were to burn in a fire or be lost to a hurricane, then you'd still have the situation where the report doesn't accurately reflect what's extant, but rather what they've graded.

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02-03-2009, 12:31 PM

Posted By: Scott Mt. JoyVCP is well worth the fees to me, I used the past auctions daily. I also have my entire graded collection entered into the My Collection section. That lets me track current sales values of my collection broken up by my own groups, to me its like tracking my stock/401k accounts. I dont even check SMR, I just dont find it useful. I do use the pop report a lot and find it valuable (its not perfect as has been mentioned). I have purchased raw cards many times based on those pop reports.

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02-03-2009, 02:31 PM

Posted By: MikeI would like the opinions as to why the SMR prices are worthless. Are they too low or too high ? Are certain grades way off etc. ? Please list why . Thanks Mike

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02-03-2009, 02:46 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIn some cases they are too high, and in others too low. On occasion, they are about right. They don't seem to reflect the market, but instead have been determined using some kind of formula or guesstimate.

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02-03-2009, 04:48 PM

Posted By: Paul GruborI signed up at the 2007 Cleveland National and use the site all the time. I have my graded card collection on the site and just love it! I feel the fee is very fair. It also helps me decide which cards to send to psa. Say I'm looking at nm/mt 1972's and an 8 recently sold for $6.00. Well thats a card that is not worth grading but if an 8 sells for $40.00 well thats a different story. I honestly would pay $300.00 per year for this super site!

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02-03-2009, 05:03 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthVCP is relevant and necessary.

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02-03-2009, 07:01 PM

Posted By: Scott Mt. JoyOk here are two examples of VCP and SMR using a set that has lots of sales, 1962 Topps- The toughest common in the set #323 Don Landrum (yes used to show the extreme) VCP Pricing of 5+ sales average- PSA 6- $3 PSA 7- $49 PSA 8- $1,151 SMR Values- PSA 6- $6 PSA 7- $10 PSA 8- $26 Second example card #5 Sandy Koufax VCP Ave- PSA 6- $72 PSA 7- $121 PSA 8- $897 SMR Values- PSA 6- $100 PSA 7- $195 PSA 8- $950 The way I look at the Koufax is that if I didnt have the VCP info I might pay $195 for a PSA 7 from a BIN when I could just wait and get one in the $120-130 auction range and save $65, more than saving enough to offset the monthly cost of VCP. One other thing to consider, many sets are not listed in the SMR. I collect exhibits and none of the 1921-1938 sets are listed and the 1939 and 1947-66 sets are so undervalued I would pay their prices right now for all the cards I need for my set. I would feel like I got the bargin of the century. From the sound of it you might just try the one day sub so you can get an idea if it would be worthwhile to you or not. **Edited for spelling doh** and some spaces

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02-04-2009, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Ken McMillanfor me not worth it. However, It would be valuable for a high volume buyer but then used only as a guideline. In the end, a card will sell for what the market will bear at the time. Also there is a lag from publishing to current so information may not be accurate. Kmac

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02-04-2009, 09:02 AM

Posted By: Bobby Binder"Also there is a lag from publishing to current so information may not be accurate." Ken: what are you talking about? The results from eBay posts within minutes after an auction ends. All other auction houses within 24 hours. How much faster to you expect?

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02-04-2009, 10:37 AM

Posted By: Ken McMillanBobby, I'm not criticizing your service because I think it great. My point is along the following lines: If you are buying stocks in the stock market and reading The Wall Street Journal the next day, does that information reflect what is happening with a stock that you are thinking about buying that day? Not necessarily. It could be a good indicator but things can happen in the market that would make the stock go up or down. Now I realized that baseball cards are not stocks and are usually not as volatile as stocks, but information can change. Your service should be used as a guideline for those that choose to purchase it. That is all I am saying. Kmac

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02-04-2009, 10:53 AM

Posted By: macboubeIt is easily one of the top two tools (along with Pop Report) in the evaluation of value process. Bobby, from one Santa Monican to another....keep up the good work!

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02-04-2009, 11:00 AM

Posted By: Ted Sherman"I could buy a worn T206 HOFer for $99," Go ahead, and I will check VCP and buy 2 t206 hof'er PSA 3 for 99, while you bought the equilvelant of a PSA 1. Bet you dont believe in sniping auctions either. SHEESH If you just buy raw cards VCP is not worth it.

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02-04-2009, 11:03 AM

Posted By: randi cannot afford $179 a year. if i could i would sign up for it. i was a member when they started i think it was $99 then. how many members are signed up to VCP. would be interesting to know, kinda like how many card collectors are actively out there?

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02-04-2009, 11:46 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellI am a subscriber to VCP plus the pop data from PSA. I think that while most do not look too closely at the SMR(myself included) the pop data is invaluable if you are a vintage card buyer. The relationship between price and pop is indisputable and low pop cards 2-3 years ago are still by and large the low pop cards of today. Jim

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02-04-2009, 01:54 PM

Posted By: ScottDangoyou said "Reasons why... owner doesn't like slabbed cards crack out to cross over crack out to get even higher grade crack out to put in 15 pocket sleeves crack out for ease of storage, a set of 520 T206s take up about as much space as 6 slabbed T206s " i think all those are not legitmate reasons to CRACKOUT... 1. if you dont like slabbed cards, your not gonna own the highest grade and crack it out...you may crack out a lower graded, not the highest... 2. why crack out a highest grade and risk a lower grade...people who have the highest grade will RESUBMIT, NOT CRACK OUT.. 3. again, nobody is goona crack the highest graded card (most valubale ) and place them raw in a pocket sleeve... IF anyone has done this, they like throwing money away.... HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRACKING AND RESUBMITTING...you have to understand WHEN each wouldhappen.... Frank, you seem like a smart fella, not sure why your not grasping this...

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02-04-2009, 02:43 PM

Posted By: AlI think the fact that you cannot afford the VCP membership at the Gold or Silver level kinda puts things into perspective. I do not wish to appear snobbish or elitist, but perhaps the lowest level of VCP membership may be the one for you. I own the 13th best 55 Topps set in the Registry (Teddy Ballgame)...no brag, just fact. I'm getting closer and closer to having $40k tied up in those 206 pieces of cardboard, and VCP has been an invaluable tool to me to assist in my decision making of bid prices. I reup for the Silver membership (soon I think)...but the point is, VCP provides current market conditions and as time passes they amass a fairly recent history of sales. Not only that, but they present data in a high-average-low selling prices from a host of sources beyond eBay. Additionally, they provide a graph of sales trends for each card. I too cannot afford every card that comes along, unless I go into debt and pull out my Master Card. I buy when I have the money to do so, but if I wanted, I could pull out the plastic, I just choose not to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps we are at different levels in terms of collecting. Perhaps the cost of what I collect may seem exhorbitant to you, but it's all relative, really. Collect what makes you happy and what you will enjoy having. I do from time to time collect raw and have three binders of Red Sox player cards. In addition to being able to afford this, that or the other, it's really a personal choice on what you want to collect. As for shilling, it exists, kinda like rain, it comes and goes. The shilling aspect of our collecting efforts should not impact your decision whether or not to bid on a card. I have been collecting the 55 Topps set for about 4 years, I kinda know the set ice cold, however, I do my research via pop report and VCP sales of what I think I want or need, come up with a price I can live with, win or lose I stick to my guns...shilling has not a scintilla of impact on my decisions. I DO NOT use SMR, it is simply out of sync with reality. I recently bid on a 55 Topps Monte Irvin PSA 8, one of the toughest cards in the 55T set. I bid $2,156.01 and came in second, missed it by $10, but then again I don't know what the top bidder's high bid was. Perhaps there will be another time for me. Again, point is, pick a price you can live with, snipe that sucker and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield. GL in your collecting efforts. Louis Pasteur once said "Chance favors the prepared mind". Translation to me is do your research from all available sources, and to me VCP is about as good as it gets. No other website will give you the current market place data that VCP will provide you.

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02-04-2009, 02:56 PM

Posted By: barrysloateForget Louis Pasteur, I much prefer "sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield." Now that is profound!

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02-04-2009, 04:47 PM

Posted By: randhello Al, thank you for the well thought out post. i did not take your initial statement the wrong way. i will give you a cliff note version of my background. for those that know me a bit better.. i was an avid 33 goudey collector. i built the set twice, with a 106. i had a set worth well over $60k and sold it, i am an sgc guy, and had many 1/1 high grade cards. built up again and sold another. my business went down the drain (construction house flipping in Florida) when the housing market crashed. long story short.. when i was involved heavily with my 33 goudeys, i didnt need alot of help once i understood the nuances of the set. it took me 18 months to really grasp the cards and availability. after that experience, any set i have taken on i learn quickly about it. i dont feel i need to spend $179 or $99 (psa) to get a grip on pricing. yes, VCP offers a great deal of professional information and i do feel it is worth the money IF you want to utilize all the bells and whistles. i'd rather buy cards with the fees, especially since they are recurring fees every year. my financial situation is not what is was. i do still collect, i have a pretty nice 1934 Sky Bird Set (Non Sports)and high grade 1936 Goudey R322 group. so all in all, i respect VCP, take SMR to the boys room to look at the pix, and fully UNDERSTAND the value of pop reports and all major auction site final sales

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02-04-2009, 05:04 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldScott... All of what you said is why you'd not crack a "highest graded" slabbed card. For me, I have no reverence for slabbed cards, much less 'highest graded' cards, and it would be no big deal for me to bust one out if I had one. Most of the graded cards I've bought I've busted out. A few aren't out yet... I knew a kid, now an adult. He asked to see my cards years ago. I showed him old cards. His oldest card was from the 1970s... I gave him a couple of T206s. And as years went by, I'd send him an old card or two on his birthday, high school graduation, and the like. One card I recall giving him was a Reulbach with glove, I recall it because I find Ed Reulbach's history interesting, and I have a bunch of that card. Anyway, a few years ago he and his family lost their home in one of those southern California fires. All the cards burned. My point, floods, hurricanes and the like have wiped out some cards. The reports don't accurately reflect what is currently out there, but may well reflect what they've graded. It isn't just semantics, it is reality. If you don't want to accept that you were mistaken, that's ok, but doesn't change reality. After a couple of years of busting cards I started saving the slips. I haven't kept them all, but most. I like them, they're proof to me that the reports are off.

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02-04-2009, 05:20 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellThe pop reports are off due to floods and hurricanes? I can understand an occasional breakout or a crossover to SGC but floods and hurricanes? Frank, they are not perfect but trust me on this as I buy a lot of graded cards in all kinds of different sets and collectors treat the pop reports as basically accurate. There is a tremendous correlation between the pops and prices--any set you look at. Jim

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02-04-2009, 05:27 PM

Posted By: TimJim- I agree with you that most Pop reports are fairly close. However T206 is one of the worst with PSA due to their not including back designations when they first began grading. I understand their delima in fixing this, but it makes even an educated guess at the front/back pops impossible. But like I said for most issues I believe they are close enough for the use they serve.

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02-04-2009, 05:29 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldJim, Scott said, "for instance, a pop report will accurately show how many of the highest grade exists...." The pop report doesn't accurately do that. That is what the discourse with him is about. As soon as one of the highest cards is broken out, crossed over, lost or destroyed, then it is no longer accurate. So what you've taken exception to is a ways down into the discourse. Those reports aren't accurate. And even though folks who embrace professionally graded cards as near holy relics, some folks don't hold them in such high regard, and things happen to those slabs. Me thinking a flood got a slabbed card seems less ludicrous to me than thinking that the reports for highest graded are accurate. Again, they may accurately reflect what they've graded (assuming they assemble the reports with greater precision than they utilize in card grading and identification), but NOT accurate as to what exists.

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02-04-2009, 05:29 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI'm still trying to figure out Ken's comment that information changes and can make VCP information obsolete the next day. Maybe new reports that a T206 HOF'er turned out to be a serial rapist, therefore his card values plummet?

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02-04-2009, 08:07 PM

Posted By: Scott Mt. JoyYou are correct Frank but I did say above- "I do use the pop report a lot and find it valuable (its not perfect as has been mentioned)" and figured that would cover it. In any case its safe to say they are off on lots of cards (from mother nature, resubmits, etc) but I still find a lot of value in it. One other thing, if say your montly card budget for cards was $50 then I would fully agree that VCP would be a waste for you, if you only collect raw cards then the service might be of little value to you also, Im sure there are plenty of other reason the service is not for everyone. For me as my card budget has increased each year, the value of VCP has greatly increased. On one hand I hope most people dont use the pop reports or VCP as I feel like it gives me a chance to flip cards for a nice profit to help build my collection. At the same time I like to mention the value I get from a service like VCP so that it can stay in business and prosper, I did not enjoy the old days of having to keep my own spreadsheet of all the cards I was following, bleh.

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02-09-2009, 01:50 PM

Posted By: NickMA friend of mine has family in Plaquemines Parish, LA. After 2 years of fighting, their insurer paid out over $300K on the sports collectibles rider from their insurance policy due to Katrina leveling their house. They're still fighting on other riders. I don't know if they had major graded cards that were lost or destroyed - the only items my friend mentioned to me were Ruth and Gehrig signed balls and a personalized signed photo of the husband with Pistol Pete, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if there were lots of graded cards in the mix.