O/T: The Day The Music Died [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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02-02-2009, 12:07 PM

Posted By: James FeaginToday is the 50th anniversary of the premature passing of Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and the Big Bopper. I was not alive for the event, but understand its significance. Without Holly, there is no Beatles. R.I.P to three music legends. Thanks for this brief off topic post on a vintage baseball card forum

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02-02-2009, 12:20 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHi James- you're a day early. It's actually Feb 3, 1959. I'm sure it will be big news tomorrow.

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02-02-2009, 12:22 PM

Posted By: James FeaginWell, about 12 hours early <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-02-2009, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Bill StoneI have always wanted to go to the Surf Ballroom in Clear Lake, Iowa for an Anniversary Winter Dance Party --this would have been the year.

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02-02-2009, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Ricky YI always sort of get misty eyed whenever I hear True Love Ways... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Ricky Y

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02-02-2009, 01:00 PM

Posted By: Scott SarianSomewhat easy trivia.... What other music legend was supposed to be on the plane with those three that night?

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02-02-2009, 01:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWaylon Jennings...but I cheated. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="sad.gif">

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02-02-2009, 01:15 PM

Posted By: Scott SarianIt must not have been too easy then, if I could stump Barry!

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02-02-2009, 01:15 PM

Posted By: Bill StoneI don't think the Big Bopper was supposed to be on the plane -Waylon Jennings gave up his seat to the Big Bopper. I saw the play in London and got one of the programs for the concert and I seem to remember the play included that change of plans in it.

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02-02-2009, 01:17 PM

Posted By: Chris CountsRicky, I agree with you about "True Love Ways." What a great ballad. As far as I'm concerned, both Holly and Valens were extraordinary musical talents. I'll bet the radio stations will be playing Don McLean's "American Pie" all day tomorrow ...

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02-02-2009, 01:19 PM

Posted By: RobWasn't Dion supposed to be on that plane? Also didn't Bobby Vee replace Buddy Holly on that tour?

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02-02-2009, 01:20 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBuddy Holly.....Richie Valenzuela.....Jay Perry Richardson (the Big Bopper).....put their trust in a young inexperienced pilot on a snowy stormy day in Iowa 50 years ago. I was 20 years old, and have always wondered "what would have been....if the had lived ? ROCK-n-ROLL....was really first nationally accepted 5 years before that tragic event........ The movie "Blackboard Jungle" theme song "Rock Around the Clock" in 1954, by Bill Halley and the Comets started it all. T-Rex TED

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02-02-2009, 01:22 PM

Posted By: barrysloateQ104.3, which is in fact the most listened to classic rock station in the country (I have it on for most of every day), has been playing "American Pie" daily, but tomorrow they will invariably include a story. Last Friday was the 40th anniversary of the Beatles' rooftop concert, which they played in its near entirety (not the full 42 minutes).

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02-02-2009, 01:26 PM

Posted By: barrysloateTed- I thought about that too. The Beatles did numerous Holly songs ("Words of Love" among the nicer ones), but Holly never lived to know the Beatles. Rock was so much in its infancy in 1959 that he missed just about everything, but he led the way.

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02-02-2009, 01:40 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBefore 1954 and "Rock Around the Clock", "rock music" was sort of an "undercurrent" style of music. Rock Around the Clock caught on with a lot of teenagers regionally. When the movie hit the big screen, it was an amazing success nationwide. Then Rock came out of the woodwork....by 1956 the following groups were exciting us kids with some great sounds...... The Penguins....Earth Angel The Platters....many songs The Everly Brothers.....Wake Up Little Suzy The Dell Vikings Little Anthony and the Imperials Little Richard Sam Cook etc, etc, etc. T-Rex TED

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02-02-2009, 01:59 PM

Posted By: DaveThe worst part of the whole thing was Buddy was mad at Waylon(Buddy's bass player) for not going on the plane and Buddy said to him "i hope you freeze your ass off on that bus" Waylon shot back with i hope your plane crashes"!!!! So you can imagine what Waylon had to live with.

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02-02-2009, 02:09 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBlackboard Jungle was a terrific movie, and a rallying cry for mid-50's youth. And I'm a huge Everly Brothers fan, especially "Cathy's Clown."

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02-02-2009, 02:15 PM

Posted By: Rob D.From <a href="http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/americanpie.asp" rel="nofollow">snopes.com</a>: Over the years, the list of people who "gave up a seat" on this ill-fated flight has grown to rival the list of persons claiming to have been invited to Sharon Tate's "quiet evening at home" the night the Manson family struck. Although Buddy Holly initially may have asked around to find other tour members willing to share the cost of chartering a plane (as Dion DiMucci claims), the only persons who committed to fly on it with Holly were his two fellow band members, Tommy Allsup and Waylon Jennings. J.P. Richardson, who was coming down with the flu, managed to talk Jennings into giving up his seat so that he could arrive at the next tour stop early and have a little extra time to visit a doctor. Ritchie Valens spent the evening trying to convince Allsup to give up his seat on the plane, but Allsup, who needed to pick up a registered letter waiting for him in Fargo, demurred. Finally, just as Allsup was about to leave the Surf City ballroom for the airport, he gave in and agreed to flip a coin with Valens for a spot on the airplane. (Unlike the way this scene is depicted in the Ritchie Valens film biography La Bamba, Holly did not charter a plane for "headliners only" or arrange the last-minute coin toss between Valens and Allsup, nor did that coin toss take place outside in a snowfall just as the plane was boarding.) Valens won the coin toss, and Allsup stayed behind to ride the bus to the next destination. Thus Waylon Jennings and Tommy Allsup were the only two persons who truly "gave up a seat" on Buddy Holly's final flight.

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02-02-2009, 02:23 PM

Posted By: sporteqI`ve been very privilege to know the Richie Valen`s family. His sister is the sweetest person you can every meet. I know his brother in-law pretty well. Very humble family .. god bless them!! RIP .. RICHIE,BUDDY HOLLY & BIG BOPPER!! aL

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02-02-2009, 02:43 PM

Posted By: J.McMurrythe local amateur stage group here in Greenville is doing a production called "Clear Lake", where they re-create that last "winter dance party" show, it's playing for 9 dates and is already sold out. I had a similar brush with history as I was at the last concert given by the original Lynyrd Skynyrd band, before they went down in a plane crash in 1977.

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02-02-2009, 02:44 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIt's a tragic story of how a simple twist of fate intervened in the lives of several unfortunate people. If Richie Valens loses the coin flip, he could still be alive today.

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02-02-2009, 02:45 PM

Posted By: BobYes, Bobby Vee replaced Buddy on the rest of the tour as I recall.

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02-02-2009, 02:46 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDid Lynyrd Skynyrd's plane crash the night of the concert you saw?

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02-02-2009, 02:50 PM

Posted By: David McDonaldApparently the Intellectual Property Brigade has decimated what's available of live Buddy Holly on YouTube but I did find this: <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3DqUNBBquRw&hl=en&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></object> Following is an audio demo tape of "Oh Donna" by Richie Valens which is a little different than the one I used to hear: <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UmARbTBwUdg&hl=en&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></object> I was 8 years old and in the fourth grade when "the music died" so I wasn't quite yet a rock'n'roller but I recall hanging around on the sidewalk with worldly 12 year olds who would doo-wop the latest hits. I've been a fifties music junkie ever since.

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02-02-2009, 02:58 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDavid- I've found some decent Buddy Holly material on Youtube (your links show up as red x's on my screen). Fact is, he had a very short career. Save a few TV appearances, there may not be much more available footage. There are Richie Valens performances on Youtube also, one of him performing La Bamba, and one of Donna (his two big hits).

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02-02-2009, 03:06 PM

Posted By: LenK if you're ever passing through Lubbock, Texas, check out the Buddy Holley museum....well worth the stop

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02-02-2009, 03:20 PM

Posted By: Dan Koteleswas when Hendrix croaked. It would have been very interesting with the sound equipment today to see just what kind of noise he would have made.

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02-02-2009, 03:34 PM

Posted By: Glyn ParsonMy Own personal day the music died will always be August 9, 1995.

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02-02-2009, 03:36 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThat would be Jerry Garcia.

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02-02-2009, 03:53 PM

Posted By: J.McMurryBarry, Yes I believe so. they did the show in Greenville, got on the plane to fly to the next gig, but the plane crashed killing three members. I still have my ticket stub.

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02-02-2009, 05:03 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBet that's a valuable stub.

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02-02-2009, 05:13 PM

Posted By: J.McMurryNah, I doubt it. Skynyrd certainly is not at the legend status of Buddy Holly, they just had similar fates. Hope I didnt come off as trying to imply otherwise.

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02-02-2009, 05:27 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisSpeaking of untimely deaths due to airplane crashes.....let's not forget Jim Croce. No way of forgetting...."Time in a Bottle" and "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown"....circa 1973. TED Z

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02-02-2009, 05:44 PM

Posted By: Glyn ParsonYou are right Barry.

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02-02-2009, 06:20 PM

Posted By: whitehseSpeaking of tragic music people passing in aircraft...I was at the last concert of Stevie Ray Vaughn at Alpine Valley theatre in East Troy Wisconsin. I still don't know why they allowed helicopters to fly that weekend with all the fog in the valley!!

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02-02-2009, 11:22 PM

Posted By: Paul<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-r616M7foo" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-r616M7foo</a>

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02-03-2009, 05:18 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieTed,Groce is one of my favorites. Including the two you mentioned; here are some favs; I've got a Name, Operator, If I could say I love you in a song, You don't mess aroudn with Jim, etc. His wife has a piano bar in San Diego (worth visiting).The way I remember it, Groce was doing a make up concert at a small venue in Texas.. the concert had been cancelled earlier in the year for whatever reason and he was adamant about making up that concert.. could be just folk lore. Marty

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02-03-2009, 06:34 AM

Posted By: Bill StoneRickey Nelson was another artist who died in a plane crash. His plane crashed on December 31, 1985. Ironically the last song he performed on stage before he died was Buddy Holly's Rave On and as I understand, the last song he recorded in the studio was a cover of Buddy Holley's True Love Ways.

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02-03-2009, 06:50 AM

Posted By: RobOtis Redding and Patsy Cline dies in plane crashes as well. Both great in their own genres!!

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02-03-2009, 08:35 AM

Posted By: RhysI have always thought Buddy Holly gets a fraction of the respect he is due for his influence on those that followed him, and Richie Valens for breaking down Hispanic Stereotypes in his day. It always seems like the true visionaries and talents in any profession or art form are taken too young. To tie this into cards, is there any doubt that Lou Gehrig would probably be the best baseball player of all time if he had lived and played for another 7-8 years? More often than not they are the types of people (like Holly, Valens and Gehrig) who we really could use more of on this earth. Going back to my Fathers generation, let us not forget Glenn Miller who died in a plane crash during WW2. And for those of us who are a bit younger (not nearly as significant though) I remember the day Randy Rhoads died around 1982. He was a very influential Hard Rock Guitarist who died in a Helicopter crash. If I ever win the lottery I am going to buy a pair of Buddy Holly's original glasses, those would be sweet in a display! Rhys

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02-03-2009, 08:50 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHe was a "Giant" (excuse the reference) in the acting world at the young age of 24, when he died on Sept 30, 1955. You talk of "what could of been" ? He would have celebrated his 78th birthday this week. TRIVIA ? Four actors in Rebel Without a Cause all died untimely deaths....can you name them ? TED Z

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02-03-2009, 09:14 AM

Posted By: James FeaginOff-topic to the off-topic, but according to Feagin family legend, my grandpa on my dad's side had a one-nighter with Patsy Cline in the early 50s. Apparently met at a bar in California.

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02-03-2009, 09:29 AM

Posted By: Jim VBJames Dean Natalie Wood Sal Mineo #4 - Please define "untimely". Several others from this film (William Hopper, Rochelle Hudson, Edward Platt) died in their mid to late 50's. Since I turn 54 this year, I classify all of them as "untimely."

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02-03-2009, 09:34 AM

Posted By: Peter ThomasDean, Wood & Mineo and some else

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02-03-2009, 09:51 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisReiterating the above TRIVIA ? Four actors in Rebel Without a Cause all died untimely deaths....can you name them ? So far....James Dean....Natalie Wood....Sal Mineo....have been guessed. One more to go....this actor (actress) died untimely in their 30's.

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02-03-2009, 09:55 AM

Posted By: Jim VBHad to research the last one. Nick Adams

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02-03-2009, 09:56 AM

Posted By: BobJim Morrison, love him or hate him was a rock god. The circumstances of his passing were a mystery and his legend lives on. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baLDbZds_4k&feature=related" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baLDbZds_4k&feature=related</a>

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02-03-2009, 10:04 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJIM VB Good research, you got it....Nick Adams. TBOB Great going....I'm surprised that it took this long in this thread before Jim Morrison was mentioned. TED Z

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02-03-2009, 10:10 AM

Posted By: Bill StoneOne personal note --I grew up in Burbank, California and although Natalie Wood was 7 years older( her sister was a year younger than me) we both had the same school teacher. While I was in regular grade school my teacher was also teaching Natalie Wood at the special studio school. She used to tell us stories about her and I have to still be amazed that all those actors in Rebel Without a Cause were so close by and many Hollywood stars could be seen at the grocery store, Griffith Park and the department store.

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02-03-2009, 10:11 AM

Posted By: JoannNot to get lost in this thread is the fact that McLean wrote what has practially become an anthem to memorialize Holly. "American Pie" is a classic for all classics and probably has kept Holly from becoming a somewhat obscure musical footnote, familiar only to true rock music buffs. At least AP keeps Holly firmly planted in the awareness of the more casual rock fan. And what a great, great song - heck the song itself is as much legend as the legend. J (And on a somewhat creepy note - I fly fairly often and it's not unusual for me to actually be on a flight different from the one I ticketed. Whenever this happens I always find myself wondering which story I will become, the person that got on the doomed plane or the person that missed or otherwise did not get on the doomed plane. Just can't help myself, no matter how many times I end up rescheduled.)

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02-03-2009, 10:15 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAs long as we're playing: No rock star died a stranger death than Keith Relf, the lead singer of the Yardbirds. He was playing his electric guitar at his home in 1976 when the ground wire malfunctioned and he was electrocuted. His son found his body on the floor of their basement. And nobody mentioned July 2, 1969, another dark day in rock history.

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02-03-2009, 10:18 AM

Posted By: barrysloateTrivia question for Ted...and others can play too. When Sal Mineo was murdered, he was returning from play rehearsal. Name the play.

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02-03-2009, 10:50 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisAnswer to your Trivia ? After Dean and Adams death's, when Sal Mineo died, I was startled. Sal Mineo was in the play...."P.S. Your Cat Is Dead" when he died in 1976. We were on our way to Florida when we heard this sad news on the car radio. I haven't forgot it. Then, 5 years later, Natalie's drowning occurred; and, I broke down and cried. It was just too much to comprehend, since "Rebel" was one of my favorite movies that I saw as a kid. Very, very strange ! TED Z

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02-03-2009, 11:01 AM

Posted By: barrysloateGood one Ted- didn't think I would fool you. Certainly the three lead actors of "Rebel" all dying young and tragically is a bizarre story, and sad indeed. It's affected me too. I always wondered what James Dean would have been like if he had lived. He did not even make it to the release of "Rebel." By the time it hit the theatres he was already gone.

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02-03-2009, 11:10 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI think that you are thinking of James Dean's last movie....GIANT. Hate to correct you, but "Rebel" was his 2nd movie. And, I am sure you know Dean's 1st movie. But, did you know why Hollywood re-released it in 1955 ? Edited to add that Dean's 1st movie "East of Eden" and his 2nd "Rebel Without Cause" were both re-released after his death TED Z

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02-03-2009, 11:12 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldHey Joann, have you seen the movie Bounce? That's about what you describe, Ben Afflek and Gwyneth Paltrow. Interesting movie...

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02-03-2009, 11:17 AM

Posted By: Kevin CummingsThere are quite a few musicians who died untimely deaths (accidental or otherwise) including Mama Cass Elliot, Janis Joplin and Keith Moon. Oddly, Moon was Paul McCartney's guest at a film preview of The Buddy Holly Story on the night he overdosed.

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02-03-2009, 11:27 AM

Posted By: RobHow about Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy and Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones!!! Also Dennis Wilson's death was tragic.

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02-03-2009, 11:31 AM

Posted By: barrysloateRob- I alluded to Brian Jones when I cited the July 2, 1969 date in my earlier post. Ted- I think I've got you on this one. Dean's three movies in order were in fact East of Eden, Rebel Without a Cause, and Giant. But I am almost certain Rebel hit the movie theatres in October, 1955, after his death. And Giant was released in 1956. Please see if you can find out more. I think I'm right.

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02-03-2009, 12:49 PM

Posted By: dennisrebel was released oct 27 about one month after deans death(9/30)giant was released nov 1956. if you have never seen cronenbergs crash. this is one of the highlites. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AABkczpcvIM" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AABkczpcvIM</a>

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02-03-2009, 01:30 PM

Posted By: Brian ...

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02-03-2009, 03:07 PM

Posted By: J.McMurryspeaking of Jones, there was a book written in the late 70's/early 80's by a former Stones "insider" who claimed that he witnessed Brian Jones being murdered,(he admits he was high at the time) I think the title of the book was "up and down with the Rolling Stones" very interesting read.

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02-03-2009, 03:56 PM

Posted By: barrysloateOriginally it was assumed Brian Jones drowned in his swimming pool (ironic since he swam regularly and was apparently quite proficient). It was later discovered that Jones had been in a dispute with one of the workers at his estate throughout his final day, and at an evening party, this man had gotten into the pool with Brian and continued the argument. Brian was asthmatic and kept an inhaler nearby. The worker, who was much larger than him, started pushing Brian underwater, exacerbating his breathing problem. On the last push, Jones sank to the bottom of the pool. Everyone panicked at that point and quickly left the party. The worker died in the 1990's, and near the end of his life confessed "I did Brian in." At least that is the story I read. Can't confirm it.

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02-03-2009, 04:40 PM

Posted By: LenK Brian Jones was an asthmatic...his inhaler was found at the side of the pool he drowned in....the autopsy revealed his internal organs to be in the condition of a man in his 50's (Jones was 26 at the time of his death).....imo he just drowned....his body gave out after all of the self-abuse

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02-03-2009, 04:50 PM

Posted By: DaveHow about Cliff Burton from Metallica. He was killed in a bus accident in Sweden he went through the window and the bus crushed him. There are alot of others Gene Vincent,Tommy Bolin,Marc Bolan(T REX),Eddie Cochran and Frankie Lyman i think he died in his mothers bathroom! And you can't forget the greatest drummer of all time John Bonham. Brian Jones, the house he lived and died in was once owned by the writer of Winnie the Pooh.

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02-03-2009, 05:06 PM

Posted By: barrysloateLen- he very well may have drowned but that would assume he was swimming alone. According to later accounts, there were several people with him that night. I guess there is no way to ever know for sure.

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02-03-2009, 05:12 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis"Why Do Fools Fall in Love" (circa 1956) made Frankie Lymon an instant Rock star at age 13. At age 25 Frankie was gone.....a tragic victim of heroin addiction. TRIVIA ? Frankie Lymon (and the Teenagers) shared the stage with The Platters during the late '50s...... what links Frankie to The Platters ? TED Z

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02-03-2009, 05:20 PM

Posted By: barrysloateFrankie Lyman had a romantic relationship with Zola Taylor of the Platters. They were later married.

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02-03-2009, 05:33 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWe are both batting 1.000 with each other's Trivia quizzes today. I guess I have to come up with a tougher quiz. TED Z

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02-03-2009, 05:36 PM

Posted By: Richard L.Well, since we are O/T and today marks the 50th anniversary, thought I'd come over from the non-sport side and share a scan. 1957 Topps Hit Stars the "Crickets". <a href="http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/tortie425/the%20fabulous%20fifties/?action=view&current=crickets-1.jpg" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/tortie425/the%20fabulous%20fifties/crickets-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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02-03-2009, 05:44 PM

Posted By: barrysloateTed- I looked it up. I don't even know who Zora Taylor is. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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02-03-2009, 05:44 PM

Posted By: DaveIs the 57 Hit Stars card for sale i have been looking for that for awhile!

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02-03-2009, 08:07 PM

Posted By: Butch & Co.Just one more item pertinent to the OP, before the day's over, FWIW... The wife of one of the guys at this ID actually danced with Valens at a sock-hop in Buffalo in December '58...

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02-04-2009, 06:50 AM

Posted By: RobSorry to keep this going, but did anyone mention Bobby Fuller and the crazy circumstances around his death? Also are there any Nick Drake or Sandy Denny fans out there? Thanks - Rob

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02-04-2009, 07:24 AM

Posted By: John K Reminising is my fave Buddy Holly song. I played the 45 over and over. Check it out. He was huge. My guess is that he listened to a lot of Hank Williams.

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02-04-2009, 08:21 AM

Posted By: LenK Rob....Bobby Fuller's death is an open-ended story...was found in his car in Hollywood, beaten beyond recognition and with gasoline in his lungs...the coroner ruled it a suicide!....rumour has it that Fuller was seeing the girlfriend of a mobster

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02-04-2009, 10:29 AM

Posted By: RobYea, I knew that Fuller's death was rumored to be somehow connected to the mob. A few of his songs are really good examples of classic 60's rock 'n' roll. And "I Fought The Law" has been covered countless amounts of times.

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02-04-2009, 10:31 AM

Posted By: Bob PomillaDon't know if anyone's familiar with the story of r&b singer Johnny Ace's death, though I have a feeling Ted might be. After a string of hits in the early 50's, Ace supposedly shot himself to death with a 22 revolver,while playing Russian Roulette, backstage at the Civic Auditorium, in Houston, on Christmas Day. Not surprisingly, his biggest hit then became the postmortem release, "Pledging My Love", which was a huge "crossover" hit and thus, because of it's popularity with white teens, helped in developing the popularity of rock & roll.

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02-04-2009, 10:34 AM

Posted By: Bob PomillaThe Bobby Fuller Four's follow-up to "I Fought the Law" was "Love's Made a Fool of You", originally recorded by - Buddy Holly.

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02-04-2009, 10:41 AM

Posted By: RobYes Johnny Ace is an often forgot about pioneer of Rock. Two other pioneers Bill Haley and Clyde McPhatter basically drank themselves to death, correct? Also I know there were some similar circumstances surrounding the death of blues guitarist Roy Buchanan (committed suicide).

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02-04-2009, 10:47 AM

Posted By: Bob PomillaYes, McPhatter and Haley were, according to what I have heard, very bitter, sad figures at the end. Buchanan received nowhere near the recognition his talent deserved.

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02-04-2009, 10:51 AM

Posted By: LenK Steve Marriot (The Small Faces and Humble Pie) died in a fire.....this is the singer Robert Plant borrowed heavily from

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02-04-2009, 12:22 PM

Posted By: Mark EvansI can't resist chiming in. I was 9 years old on the Day the Music Died. I recall the crash. Roy Buchanan hanged himself in Fairfax County (Va) jail, not too far from my Falls Church home, after his wife had him picked up for threatening behavior as a result of drinking, as I recall. Also, a propos of prior posts, on the way to dinner the other night I drove by the high school attended by Jim Morrison and Cass Elliot (George Washington, Alexandria). John Phillips attended the school as well. Mark