Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate [Archive]

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01-11-2009, 09:43 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisGee....there is a lot of "con-jecturing" going on here regarding this rare and highly desirable T-card. So, let us first review what factual stuff is known about this unique Ty Cobb card. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/acobbtycobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bcobbtycobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Factory 33 - 4th Dist. of N.C. 1st....the caption is printed with Brown ink (similar to all T206's). So, this tells us it had to be printed prior to 1912. So, in my opinion, it bears no resemblance to a T213-2 (or 3) card.....as some have alluded to. From 1912 to 1916, American Litho. printed the captions on their T-cards with Blue ink. Furthermore, in support of the 1911 timeline is the Ty Cobb (back) card in the Senator Russell's original collection. My research has shown that he collected all his T-cards in 1910 to 1911. 2nd....in 1911, ATC production was transferred to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC....Factory 42, 4th District. The Ty Cobb back identifies Factory 33 in Durham, NC. This Factory still remains a mystery; however, it is consistent with ATC's continuing production of American Beauty, Piedmont, and Sweet Caporal cigarettes in Durham. 3rd....Speaking about cigarettes, it has been a asserted that this Ty Cobb card was inserted in tin cans advertising Ty Cobb Tobacco. Not so sure about this, since contained in those tins was Cut Plug Tobacco. And, the back of this Ty Cobb card advertises "Smoking Tobacco".....meaning a cigarette brand. 4th....The quotation marks in "Ty Cobb" on the back signify that the Copyright was pending at the time of this card's printing. This leads me to believe that the Ty Cobb tobacco was an experimental brand; and, it did not succeed (per- haps, due to the break-up of ATC at the end of 1911). And, that may explain the very limited printing of this card. So, let's continue this debate ? Those are my thoughts....let's hear your's ? ? TED Z

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01-11-2009, 10:25 PM

Posted By: David SmithTed Z, I have NOTHING factual to add to this post. However, in my mnd, I think it would be cool to find out that these cards were specially printed and were used as "tickets" for admission to a party commemorating the introduction of Ty Cobb brand tobacco products (which, for some reason, never got off the ground). To me this would explain why: 1) There have been no Ty Cobb brand cigarette boxes found 2) There are no tobacco stains on the cards like you would probably expect to find if they were inserted into tins containing scrap or loose leaf tobacco. 3) Why there are not many of these cards in existance. 4) Why the majority of these cards have been found in one small geographical area and why five (I think) were found in one person's possession. I can just imagine a grand party being held in a Georgia mansion with VIP's in attendance. I can also imagine these cards being used as admission tickets and some of them being left behind. I can then imagine a young boy, who lived in the house, coming downstairs the next morning and finding some of these cards lying around on tables or the floor. May be unrealistic but since there is no real hard proof of how or why these cards came into being, it is just as plausible as any other explanation. So there is my fantasy of how and why these cards were made, David

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01-11-2009, 10:42 PM

Posted By: RichardSomewhat related: If I am a Ty Cobb collector and wanted to collect the rarest Red Portrait Ty Cobb cards, where would the "Ty Cobb Back" rank considering just T206 backs (ignore T213, T214 and T215). Certainly Brown Lenox and Drum are rarer (less than 12). What about the other backs? Broadleaf, Uzit, Red Hindu, etc? Edited: Moved this question to a new thread because it is getting buried here.

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01-11-2009, 11:28 PM

Posted By: Mr. Mosesthe implication being that it wasn't solely a chewing tobacco. As far as I know the Mayo football players and Yum Yum baseball cards of the 19th century came in tins - as did the later Fatima cards and the Lucky strike bridge favors. There are still a couple of cards for whom the packaging is unknown that definitively held cards including the mono (or mino forget which), drum (forget the label on a certain site and the sacks - no way), hindu (ads only), american beauty (a CORRECT pack), and others. The Cobb/Cobb cards and tins are scarce although I don't think that means they necessarily go together. I honestly believe it makes no difference what semi-artificial group you put the Cobb/Cobb in - the exercise for the purists I guess. If it is in fact found glossy - I'd surmise it was as protection from tobacco. If found in both states and in such limited quantities - I'd say it was an experiment. I always think about the Pirate cards when I think of this card as I believe there's a reasonable chance they were never actually distributed in ANY package. The date issue seems quite important - I'd be less concerned with the printing color as there could be many reasons for that. I have seen many green autographs of his so the back might reflect an affinty for the color? Has the ink found to be the same as used on the sovereign or AB cards? I'm gonna have to read the applicable threads over many times I fear until you guys come to a conclusion <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Perhaps one day a diary or ledger entry will surface and clear it all up but you guys are terrific and I have faith.....

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01-12-2009, 04:48 AM

Posted By: AnonymousA name cannot be protected with a copyright. A brand name cannot be protected with a copyright. I imagine that "Ty Cobb" distinguishes the supposed brand from Ty Cobb the person. A brand may enjoy trademark protection. As I recall from my old econ I/O courses, as long as the owner of a trademark acts to prevent a trademark from entering common usage, no other firm may use the brand name in its own product name. Anyhow, I like the idea that the quotes support the possibility of an actual product.

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01-12-2009, 04:54 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWell, your "fantasy" regarding this Ty Cobb card is as plausible as any....in the light of what little we know about it. I certainly have my theories regarding it. But, I continue to "dig" into it. One fact that is puzzling is that no amount of research in the ATC records lists the Ty Cobb tobacco brand. At least, I haven't found anything yet. Thanks, you always post some interesting stuff regarding T-cards. TED Z

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01-12-2009, 05:16 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisPerhaps, I meant "Trademark", rather than "Copyright"....it was after midnite when I typed that post last nite. But, then can you explain to me why then the 1910 Coupon card has its brand name in quotes...."COUPON". <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bcouponrossleachchase.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> ...........1910 issue........ As, it has been my understanding that the Trademark for the new Coupon (Mild) Cigarettes brand was pending when the American Lithographic Co. issued this card in 1910. And, as is obvious, the " " are not there in the T213 (2 & 3) cards, since this brand was established by 1914. TED Z

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01-12-2009, 05:23 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldTed, You left out a few things... The Ty Cobb cards have the same dimensions as the white border T206 cards. But you also omitted that the Ty Cobb cards all have a glossy front, a finish atop the surface of the card. None of the white border T206s have that. The peculiarities you listed were all consistencies with T206, as if you're lobbying that the Ty Cobb cards should be with them. Almost all other T206 cards were issued with a variety of backs, not just one. (I know, Demmitt and O'Hara). But there is no back in T206 that is associated with only one front, which is the what you have with the Ty Cobb cards. The cards all seem to have come from Georgia. T206s were distributed in dozens of states. I like the card. It would have been neat to have obtained one years ago, but today the cost would be too much. Still, I don't, and never have, considered it a T206. And Ted, while you didn't specifically say that you think the Ty Cobb cards should be included, that seems to be what you're advocating. Good thread old buddy! Frank W.

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01-12-2009, 05:25 AM

Posted By: MattTed - any way to look up the trademark application records? <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/mwieder/ForTradeSale" rel="nofollow">My Trade/Sale Page</a>

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01-12-2009, 06:15 AM

Posted By: ShawnTed, You said that the Liggett & Myers Co. remains a mystery in your original post... What do you mean by that?

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01-12-2009, 06:30 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI just re-read my initial post here, and I can see how one might conclude that I have changed my prior thinking. And, that now I am suggesting this Ty Cobb card is part of the T206 set. Not so....I'm still in the school of thought that considers this Ty Cobb as a unique card. I am simply trying to stir up some more discussion on this subject. Hopefully, we come up with some new thought-provoking stuff. The fact that this tobacco product was produced in the "mysterious" Factory 33, sets this Cobb card apart from all the T206 cards. I think the key here is, if we could find some substantial info on this unique Factory in Durham (NC), we might get a better understanding of this "Ty Cobb" tobacco product; and therefore, we can arrive at an intelligent conclusion. So far, I do not think that Factory #33 has been found on any other T-card....BB or Non-Sports. TED Z

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01-12-2009, 06:43 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI don't believe I said...."the Liggett & Myers Co. remains a mystery". The L&M plant was situated in Factory 42 in Durham, North Carolina. But, I said "Factory 33 in Durham, NC. This Factory still remains a mystery". TED Z

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01-12-2009, 07:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think the Ty Cobb back was part of a short-lived promotion within a small geographic area in the state of Georgia. Due to the popularity of the T206 set, the company realized by duplicating the look of a T206 the Ty Cobb backs would be eagerly sought, thus promoting the brand. I think it was a point of purchase thing: buy a pack (or tin) of the Ty Cobb brand, and the tobacconist would hand you one of the cards. It had to be a relatively small promotion, based on the few surviving examples today.

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01-12-2009, 07:41 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeWasn't one of the Red Cross issues names printed in brown ink?

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01-12-2009, 08:04 AM

Posted By: PCAccording to the Old Cardboard site, the brown letter Red Cross cards are 1910-1912, with the blue letters starting in 1912 (through 1913). So, it appears brown letter ATC cards appear post-1911.

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01-12-2009, 08:17 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeawesome! that covers my only debate there. Oh well, I tried.

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01-12-2009, 08:40 AM

Posted By: ShawnTed, You are right... Sorry about that. I did find this article, not sure if it is any help but you never know! I only provided half of the article, but the full is in the link below. <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/tob5crop.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A04EEDD173CE633A2575BC2A9679C946396D6CF" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A04EEDD173CE633A2575BC2A9679C946396D6CF</a>

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01-12-2009, 09:01 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou asked...... "Wasn't one of the Red Cross issues names printed in brown ink?" Yes, the 1st Red Cross cards (T215-1) have Brown ink captions and it's initial issue date is 1910. The Type 2 Red Cross cards were issued in 1912-14 and have Blue captions. TED Z DAN......I was recently at a model train and gun show at the new OAKS, PA Expo Center. It is a huge facility....and, you can drive in to your exact booth location. So, I ask you....why didn't the new owners of the Philly Show set us up at this facility ? I'm sure it would have cost less than the Valley Forge Center.

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01-12-2009, 09:05 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou imagined...... "I can just imagine a grand party being held in a Georgia mansion with VIP's in attendance. I can also imagine these cards being used as admission tickets and some of them being left behind.I can then imagine a young boy, who lived in the house, coming downstairs the next morning and finding some of these cards lying around on tables or the floor." And, perhaps this "young boy" could have been Richard Russell, who was 14 years old in 1911 and an avid BB fan and T-card collector. However, Russell was in Military School about 100 miles away from Atlanta. I can imagine, though, that this imaginary young boy may have been a friend of Russell's. And, what I've read about Russell, he was a serious T-card collector, who would have traded a bunch of his Old Mills (T210's) for this Ty Cobb card. Just imagine this trade....Russell's Old Mill Joe Jackson and Casey Stengel for the Ty Cobb back card. Anyhow, I like your thinking. TED Z

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01-12-2009, 09:13 AM

Posted By: David SmithThank you, Ted. My idea fantasy idea went some what along these lines; The ATC was going to introduce the new Ty Cobb brand of tobacco and wanted some good publicity. So they decided to hold a special party for VIP's only. Once this idea was annnounced, someone in the Marketing Department (or maybe Cobb himself) thought it would be an even better idea if the party was held in Georgia, that the tobacco would get its debut there (in a limited geographical area) and that special Ty Cobb cards could be printed up and used as tickets for the event. So as NOT to be confused with regular white border cards, these special cards were printed with a glossy front, a Ty Cobb back in green ink and a factory number that did NOT ever have any cards associated with it. Think about it, what profession was Cobb's Father in? Wasn't he a Judge or something? How about Senator Russell's Father? With Cobb being a famous baseball player from Georgia who had a prominant Father, wouldn't it be realistic for him to want to debut his own brand of tobacco back home and do so with a ball or party where only the upper class of Georgia would attend? All of these things are plausible and would explain why Sentor Russell had a card in his collection and why five of these cards were found in one family's possession. Then again, I am probably totally off with this whole idea. Wouldn't be the first time..... David

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01-12-2009, 10:16 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for that newspaper clipping. I'm tracking down some more Tobacco Co. situated in the North Carolina area. TED Z

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01-12-2009, 11:09 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeWhere is Oaks in relation to Philly? I think they wanted to get as close to Philly as possible Ted. It is more expensive but I think we will all fair better in the long run. You just have to dig out some of that great stuff you have and let me see your table long before the show opens! Dan.

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01-12-2009, 11:30 AM

Posted By: ShawnNot sure if anyone has seen this... Below is what appears to be a list of companys who attended the 1915 expo in San Fran. Notice on the left the first mention of Liggett & Myers. It gives a list of plants and there cities that are represented. After that it gives a break-down of what each plant and corresponding city produced. Notice that there are two listings for Durham NC! Obviously it shows the cigarette brands, but it also shows the granulated and cut plug brands also.... I am not sure, but does the "Ty Cobb Granulated Cut Plug" brand "tin" state where it was made? It certainly seems it could have been made in Durham... I have attached the first page just to show the publication. <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Official_Catalogue_of_Exhibitors1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Official_Catalogue_of_Exhibitors2.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-12-2009, 12:47 PM

Posted By: ShawnIt also appears that there were two Tobacco companies in Durham during the years 1909-191?... "Blackwells Durham Tobacco Co." and "W. Duke Sons & Co." Is there a known "Blackwells" card? The Blackwells branch was owned by "The American Tobacco Co." and the Dukes was owned by "Liggett & Myers " during this time.

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01-12-2009, 01:44 PM

Posted By: J HullI suspect Factory 33 was the old Blackwell factory in downtown Durham, most famous for producing the Bull Durham brand of tobacco. The factory mostly produced (maybe only produced) granulated smoking tobacco products. There are a TON of great photographs of the factory building and its warehouses and annexes out in various places on the Internet. These are ATC's circa 1909 brands of granulated smoking tobacco that were produced in Durham. The factory number on any of these packages should be able to confirm whether No. 33 was the Blackwell factory. I believe Duke's Mixture was the most successful of any of these and thus has the most surviving packages. Bob White Bristol Club Canvas Back Cherry Drum Granulated Duke's Mixture Eureka Geranium Rose Greenback May Queen Recruit Seal Skin Uncle Ned (also produced in St. Louis) Victory Granulated

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01-12-2009, 01:55 PM

Posted By: ShawnIf you notice on the pages I posted above, there is a cut plug brand that was produced by the Liggett & Myers Dukes branch: "Pick Burley" I cannot find anything on this brand???

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01-12-2009, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Mr. Moses"Pick" tobacco - burley refers to the "cut"

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01-12-2009, 04:18 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldJust when I think I can't afford to own one, here we go!!! <a href="http://tinyurl.com/8r75n2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/8r75n2</a> But now that I understand that Ted and I are in agreement that it doesn't belong in T206, I might not bid... Thank you, Ted.

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01-12-2009, 04:22 PM

Posted By: WesleyThat makes it 13 or 14 known.

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01-12-2009, 04:47 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishIt's the rare blue print version! Sheeesh.....

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01-12-2009, 05:04 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldDave, you have the eagle eye!! And did you see that unique Virgina factory?? The others have factory 33 in North Carolina. Ya know, as I look at that card I think it isn't a T206 either!

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01-13-2009, 05:01 AM

Posted By: ShawnHere is a link to a pack of "Pick" plug cut tobacco from the Liggett & Myers Co. As you can see, it shows Factory 42... It also says series of 1910 on the stamp. <a href="http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,1669295.html#image3" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,1669295.html#image3>" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,1669295.html#image3></a></a>

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01-13-2009, 05:48 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for all the info you have presented. I am still researching it. It would be nice to find some tobacco product or T-card (sports or non-sports) with Factory 33 printed on it. The only such item that we know of, is the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco Tin. Printed on it is Factory 33, 4th District, NC. I am skeptical, however, that the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card was ever intended to be in this tin. The advertising on this tin depicts Cobb in a batting pose, rather than his Red portrait. Also, there is no advertising on this tin stating the "King of the Smoking Tobacco World" (as the back of the card states). Usually, the premium (T-card) associated with a tobacco product is printed with the same advertising. TED Z

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01-13-2009, 06:04 AM

Posted By: ShawnNo problem... I have been digging into the "factory 33" quite a bit, but the best I have come up with so far is a Factory 33 in Tampa, Florida that made cigars. I will keep searching. Can you email me or post a picture of the tin? I would like to see a good pic of where it says "factory 33" and the rest of the tin.

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01-13-2009, 03:00 PM

Posted By: leonHere's a pretty accurate reprint of the Ty Cobb card. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1232214730.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z edited scan size

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01-13-2009, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldShawn, Here is a photo of the Ty Cobb tin from my website: <img src="http://baseballandtobacco.com/images/tycobb.gif" alt="[linked image]"> - Jon ====================================== For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit <a href="http://www.baseballandtobacco.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballandtobacco.com</a>

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01-13-2009, 07:17 PM

Posted By: John MoranNevermind, dupe of Ted's post

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01-13-2009, 07:21 PM

Posted By: leonI think it's a T213-1 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> (you guys would make everything a T206)

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01-13-2009, 07:55 PM

Posted By: Scot There is no record of an attempt to register TY COBB as a federal trademark for smoking tobacco or cigarettes. The ATC brands that were (eventually) registered are: SWEET CAPORAL, registered in 1895 based on alleged first use of mark in 1878 PIEDMONT, registered in 1922 based on alleged first use of mark in 1905 I do find it interesting that "Ty Cobb" and "Coupon" were both put in quotes. Suggests to me that the same back designer may have been at work.

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01-13-2009, 08:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThank you guy, that explains why my "Ty Cobb Tobacco" search has been to no avail....No Trademark. Good searching, Scot. TED Z

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01-13-2009, 08:09 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">....Try again guy, the 1910 Coupon Cobb is already accounted for....<img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/1910couponcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Regards, TED Z

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01-13-2009, 08:34 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHave to differ with you....the overall artwork is different when you compare the Coupon-1 with the Ty Cobb back. I still think the quotes had to be there because these two brands were not Trademarked at the time of their card's printing. I might be corrected on this, but I think Coupon was a new T-brand in 1910, hence the quotes. By 1914 (T213-2), the Coupon brand was established. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bcouponrossleachchase.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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01-14-2009, 04:54 AM

Posted By: ShawnIt would be nice to see all sides of the "Ty Cobb" tin. All of the wording etc. I looked at your web site and I am guessing that it is not possible to get such images?

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01-14-2009, 05:53 AM

Posted By: leonYou know I was just messin' with ya'. For the record, my belief is that the Cobb/Cobb back is not a T206 card. My reasoning is solely due to the characteristics of the card itself. No T206's have glossy fronts..... changed gramma'

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01-14-2009, 06:20 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeI agree Leon, great card but its on animal.

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01-14-2009, 06:38 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHey guy....and I was just messin' back with ya' <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> But, when I see you in Cleveland this Summer, I will show you my GLOSSY T206 Downs. Scanning it here, of course, will not shows its gloss. So, you cannot say for sure that T206's are not "glossy". Conversely, it's my understanding that not all Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb cards have a gloss on them. TED Z

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01-14-2009, 07:31 AM

Posted By: J HullTed, I like your explanation for the quotation marks around Coupon on the T213-1's. If Coupon was a relatively new brand, that makes sense. I'm not sure the quotes are signifying a lack of a registered trademark as much as they represent an attempt to create a trademark through use. In 1910 I think pretty much every purchaser of cigarettes knew that many brands inserted coupons that could be collected and submitted to the company in exchange for "prizes." I'm sure you've seen some of the catalogs from the era detailing the products that could be acquired if one accumulated enough coupons. Coupon the brand was trying to market itself on that notion -- if you buy Coupon brand you will get coupons for prizes. So the quotation marks probably were an attempt to distinguish a trade usage for Coupon as a brand above and beyond the simple and recognized idea of paper tickets in cigarette packs. As you say, once the brand was more established, they dropped the quotation marks. The same may well be true for the Ty Cobb brand. The brand is different from the man, even though it's an obvious attempt to capitalize on the man's fame and notoriety. So as a new brand, the quotation marks might be an attempt to build brand equity while of course still indicating that the brand should be associated with the idea of Ty Cobb the baseball player. Jamie

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01-14-2009, 09:20 AM

Posted By: Scot Reader Nice post Jamie. I think you are right. "Coupon" and "Ty Cobb" are not fanciful terms (unlike "Sweet Caporal," for example) and thus the quotation marks were an attempt to make clear that these terms were being used as trademarks in this particular context and thereby build brand equity. So, maybe the addition of quotation marks has more to do with the particular brand names than timing.

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01-14-2009, 10:31 AM

Posted By: 1880nonsportsyour elusive factory 33 4th N.C. on any of my tins or trade cards - have checked all the "T" nonsports cards - written to someone I know at the Duke museum in N.C. - and am doggedly chasing any lead I can find. Jon knows a few hardcore tobacco guys - I'm sure he's lit a fire there. My internet searches so far have been empty. I have at least 10 tobacco history type books and many tin books - they're fodder for my next step as unlikely only one product BRAND was manufactured there. Keeps those possible avenues for exploration coming! Plenty of time and willing to work! Sorta reminds me of the email I got with a guy what's got a sandwich board (only Ted the remembers those ) - he's panhandling - and he takes paypal <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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01-14-2009, 02:17 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis1880nonsports The elusive "Factory 33 4th District N.C." can be seen on the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin of Jon Canfield's scan on this thread. It is faintly visible in the box on the lower left side of this tin. So far, this tin and the red Ty Cobb card are the only items that have been found identifying this Factory. TED Z

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01-14-2009, 03:52 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldHenry, I contacted Jim Shaw and Joe Parker regarding Factory 33. Joe Parker did inform me that F33, 4NC was the former F.R. Penn plant in Reidsville. It was still in service in 1927. I don't know how long afterwards. F130 in Reidsville was also an American Tobacco plant and he would guess that F33 was consolidated with it, probably not long after that, or certainly by the time the depression was in full swing. ====================================== For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit <a href="http://www.baseballandtobacco.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballandtobacco.com</a>

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01-14-2009, 04:03 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishFound an obit for Penn's son here: <a href="http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-153163047.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-153163047.html</a> Note the last sentence, which may pin the time frame down as 1911-12. ---------------------------------------------------------- Lucky Strike founder Charles Penn, 63, dies.(Triad) Article from: The News & Record (Piedmont Triad, NC) 75 YEARS AGO From the Greensboro Daily News, Oct. 22-28, 1931 Charles A. Penn, vice president of American Tobacco Co. and long prominent in civic and charitable activities in Reidsville, died at St. Luke's Hospital in New York after a short illness. He was 63. He appeared to be in good health until he became ill several days ago and was admitted to the hospital. Penn was well known within the tobacco industry and was a pioneer in introducing modern machine methods to making cigarettes and cigars. He was working with his father at the old F.R. Penn Tobacco Co . when it merged with American Tobacco about 1911.

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01-15-2009, 04:33 AM

Posted By: ShawnMen, I think we may have a match here... Though its not real clear, the spacing and everything is almost the same. I am posting now so perhaps someone can find a better side shot. <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/penns.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/pennsback.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-15-2009, 05:27 AM

Posted By: ShawnI have also found this notation, for what its worth... Blackwell's Durham Tobacco Company (Durham, N. C.)-capital, $1,000, 000. In 1899 the American Tobacco Company procured for $4,000,000 all the stock of Blackwell's Durham Tobacco Company at Durham, N. C., manufacturer and distributer of tobacco products. Thereupon the Blackwell's Durham Tobacco Company, of New Jersey, capital, $1,000,000 all owned by the American, was organized and took over the assets of the old company, then under receivership. Its separate organization has been preserved. The Durham Company has acquired control of the following competitors- Reynold's Tobacco Company; F. R. Penn Tobacco Company; and Wells-Whitehead Tobacco Company. The following companies came also under the control of the American Tobacco Company through acquired stock ownership:

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01-15-2009, 06:29 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisGreat research JON, DAVE, and SHAWN......very informative. TED Z

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01-15-2009, 07:27 AM

Posted By: Scott M.Ted, These kinds of threads always inspire me as I love to do research on various card issues to see what I can turn up. Interestingly, I found a blurb which seems to "announce" the Ty Cobb brand that was published on the following dates and locations: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/8vfclh" rel="nofollow">March 5, 1910 - Tuscon, AZ (Look in the stray topics from New York section)</a> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/76yqdj" rel="nofollow">March 6, 1910 - Grand Forks, ND</a> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/94newm" rel="nofollow">March 8, 1910 - San Jose, CA</a> Obviously the blurb says nothing about where the brand was to be distributed (likely locally in Georgia) but at least this does seem to tell us that the brand was kicked off (or at least announced) in early 1910.

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01-15-2009, 08:12 AM

Posted By: Scot Reader [DELETED]

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01-15-2009, 08:19 AM

Posted By: J HullScott, great find. Info like that and people who are interested enough to search for it and kind enough to share it when they find it are the biggest reason I read this board. Jamie

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01-15-2009, 09:40 AM

Posted By: Dave HornishWow, eagle eyes on those press clippings! Looks like the pipe tobacco had a press agent plant press releases around the country, so a wide distribution may have been planned. I have to think now that the ATC 1911 date in the Penn obit I posted must actually refer to whatever happened post breakup to factory 33. It sure seems like a date of 1910 is most likely for the Cobb/Cobb based on the clippings. I wonder if the pending breakup of ATC aborted the launch of the Ty Cobb pipe tobacco then? The cards seem more and more (to me at least) to have been printed as a promotional item to coincide with the pipe tobacco launch. Ted-I have followed the brown/blue caption threads prior but do not recall if a conclusion was made that the blues were post breakup. I know you mention 1912 as the date the fonts and colors changed, so that makes sense, just not sure if you mention all blue captions are post breakup somewhere else. A little applied research on this old subject has really paid off-this is a great thread.

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01-15-2009, 09:57 AM

Posted By: ShawnIs this a coincidence or what??? F.R. PENN Tobacco Co. "Georgia Cracker" Tag! <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/T467xx.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-15-2009, 10:16 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisFantastic stuff, guy. You have proven to to be our Net54 resident detective when it comes researching archival stuff on E-cards and T-cards. Thanks much....this is why threads like this are worth re-visting. TED Z

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01-15-2009, 12:21 PM

Posted By: JimBScott, That is fantastic research. Since "pipe" is always in quotations, I wonder if it was pipe tobacco (They mention 'smoking tobacco') that was being announced, or if that was not some current slang/double entendre from the press release. Either way, dating it to 1910 is a huge step forward. JimB

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01-15-2009, 12:33 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJIM B The Ty Cobb tin is labelled "Granulated Cut Plug" tobacco. Having been a pipe smoker in my younger days, I'd say this is consistent with the newspaper announcements of "pipe tobacco". But, note that on the side of the tin is the word...."Cigarettes" ? ? Nothing in this ongoing mystery is simple. But, we are finally making some progress. TED Z

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01-15-2009, 12:52 PM

Posted By: JimBHi Ted, You could be right, but I think "granulated cut plug" refers to a type of cut of tobacco that can be applied for either cigarette tobacco or pipe tobacco and does not necessarily indicate one or the other definitively. See the link for a 1914 ad. JimB <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com.my/O-U-WISE-MAN-CUT-PLUG-SMOKING-TOBACCO-1914-PALMER-COX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ200291465482" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com.my/O-U-WISE-MAN-CUT-PLUG-SMOKING-TOBACCO-1914-PALMER-COX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ200291465482> edited for spelling.</a>

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01-15-2009, 01:36 PM

Posted By: J HullHere are the front and back pictures from the tin sold by REA a couple years ago. Putting together the two images, the side of the tin says "For Pipe and Cigarette". <img src="http://www.jimonym.com/Tin1.JPG" alt="Tin1.JPG"> <img src="http://www.jimonym.com/Tin2.JPG" alt="Tin2.JPG">

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01-15-2009, 01:38 PM

Posted By: ShawnThe Penn's tin that I listed above states "Pipe & Cigarette" and it "Chews Good Too".....

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01-15-2009, 01:44 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishThat Penn button says Reidsville, SC but there is also a Reidsville, Georgia. May not mean anything but the Georgia connection is intriguing.

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01-15-2009, 04:44 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Dave, That's Reidsville, NC.... And it's only 40 minutes from me. Be well Brian PS Some of the old Tobacco factories are still standing...

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01-15-2009, 05:24 PM

Posted By: Dave Hornisher, yes that is an "n" after careful scrutiny.....

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01-15-2009, 05:33 PM

Posted By: fkwCobb Back is NOT a T206.... it has a glossy surface, and we all know T206 cards are not glossy. Thats enough right there. Call it a T206-2 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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01-15-2009, 06:08 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIn my searching, I had considered the F. R. Penn Tobacco Co. as possibly being the mysterious Factory 33. However, when I looked at a North Carolina map....I thought Reidsville was too far distant from Durham to be within the 4h District. Your thoughts on this ? TED Z

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01-15-2009, 06:20 PM

Posted By: Mike DaltonThis board is great! I am what I believe is usually referred to as a lurker and am just going to chime in here.I did a google book search and found some links that have more info on F.R. Penn. This link has some info on the Penn company. They made plug tobacco for sure. <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=6x4UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA386&dq=F.R.+Penn+plug+t obacco&as_brr=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=6x4UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA386&dq=F.R.+Penn+plug+t obacco&as_brr=1</a> This is an interesting link about a lawsuit involving Penn. confirms location in Reidsville I believe. <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ibA2AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA13&dq=F.R.+Penn&as_brr= 1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=ibA2AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA13&dq=F.R.+Penn&as_brr= 1</a> More info. <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=VmICAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA15&dq=F.R.+Penn&as_brr=1#PRA1-PA15,M1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=VmICAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA15&dq=F.R.+Penn&as_brr=1#PRA1-PA15,M1</a> This is all interesting reading. I apologize if this all old info. I am convinced by the evidence you have presented on this board that the card in question came from the Penn factory in the Ty Cobb tin above (You can barely see the factory 33 on the side).Anyway as I said before great board! Great thread.

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01-15-2009, 06:28 PM

Posted By: Mr. Mosesmanaged to take the tobacco leaf and manufacture many different products - from plug to snuff. Typically a factory provided ONE type of product but it could be processed and sold in many forms. You couldn't smoke snuff in a pipe or roll it - you couldn't chew tobacco that was processed for cigarettes. With time the factories were looking to reach greater markets and utilze all of the plant and excesses. Plug was a form of chewing tobacco - most often combined with ingredients to sweeten or enhance the taste like fruits, honey, and other flavoring. Plug was about the cheapest form of tobacco other than "clippings". People with "armpit" money would alternatively smoke the chew so to speak. The companies then packaged "cut plug" which could be smoked. "Granulated" cut plug was a natural extension and offered to the public so as to fill their pipe OR roll into cigarettes. This is off the top of my little head - I have doccumentation and better identification somewhere for the terms if they are actually needed - but I think not. Penn tobacco was a widely marketed brand and offered in MANY different style containers. ANOTHER AVENUE OF EXPLORATION might be the pocket tin itself - American Tin Can Co.(?) or sumptin else? It reminds me of the Paul Jones (?) cantainer <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">. I don't have a Penn's pocket tin to look at but will finger thru some books to see if I can find anything that might provide another link.....

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01-15-2009, 07:17 PM

Posted By: ShawnMr Moses, I have emailed a fellow who owns one of the Penn's No1 tins and asked for more pics. I have not heard back from him? Also wanted to add that the Penn's tin must be quite rare because I have seen where it has sold in the $1500-2000 range. I think I found 3-4 examples at this price.

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01-15-2009, 07:22 PM

Posted By: AnonymousThe Ty/Ty that I had was from an original circa 1910-1911 collection acquired by my wife's grandfather when he was about 10 years old working in his father's hardware/dry goods store in south Alabama. I don't believe he got the card from a VIP party in Georgia.

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01-15-2009, 08:09 PM

Posted By: ShawnBelow is an excerpt and a link that is just slammed full of "Penn" and "Durham" tobacco company info. I think if someone reads through the entire thing they may find some answers. PROTECTED BY MINNESOTA TOBACCO LITIGATION PROTECTIVE ORDER Hill become President. Hill had come up as a Bull Durham saleeman to become Duke's right.hand man. Manufacturing chief was Charles Penn, son of the Reidsville plugmaker Duke had bought out. Bred in the lrade, Penn had an uncanny knowledge of leaf. Tuze~{o smoking tobacco was being worked out, and Crowe was asked whether he could get several car- loads of the brand to the West Coast within a week. "I hadn't the slightest idea whether it was possible," recalls Crowe, "and besides I was scared stiff. What- ever I said, it was certainly no answer." Later on Hill called the young trainee back to,~his qffice for a private conversation: "Crowe, this business is mostly horse sense. If you don't know, say so. But your job is to get so that you do know." It was Hill's way of putting the young manufacturing man on his own, and it succeeded. Mr. Penn of Carolina Like the other executives George Hill was given a fairly free reign over his oa'n domain, sales promotion. But his dad knew what things George didn't know. One of them was manufacturing, and in this department Charlie Penn's word was, by Percy Hill's own edict, law. On several occasions Penn had to stand up against the youthful Sales Vice President's bright ideas, which were generated out of a scant year's experience making Carolina Brights. And Penn did just that quite successfully in his gruff, unshake- abIe way. For Penla,. even more than George Washington Hill, had been bred with tobacco. His grandfather was Thomas Jefferson Penn, a direct descendant of Thomas Jefferson and William Penn. His father was the well-known F. R. Pehn, whose ReidSvillepIug business, founded in 1838, was bought out by Buck Duke. Penn's No. I and later Penn's Natural Leaf (still made by American Tobacco) achieved wide ac- ceptance as a unique product-Burley filler wrapped in flue-cured leaf. The town of Reidsville itself (now centered around the production of Lucky Strike cig- arettes) was also unique. It was a typical Southern town, as suggested by some of Penn's lesser brands- Kitty May, Rebel Girl, Famous Friend, Dew Drop, Little Pearl, Littl~ Daisy, Native, Old Virginia Chew. But even more than Durham, Reidsville had been put on the map by tobacco and tobacco alone. As a manufacturing man ~Sth a knack of maintaining con- sistent quality control and an uncanny knowledge of leaf, Charlie Penn was also unique. It is a peculiar f~ct of the tobacco business that the manufacturing side wages a eon.~inual defensive CONFIDENTIAL: MINNESOTA TOBACCO LITIGATION ATX05 0170512 <a href="http://tobaccodocuments.org/ness/28918.html?zoom=750&ocr_position=above_foramatted& start_page=1&end_page=143" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tobaccodocuments.org/ness/28918.html?zoom=750&ocr_position=above_foramatted& start_page=1&end_page=143</a>

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01-15-2009, 10:55 PM

Posted By: Mr. Mosesand most of their other containers are common enuff and don't get big money. The Penn 1 pocket (pocket tin collectors are well established as is the supply demand equation) is extremely tuff and sells in rarified air - it's circa 1900. Of note however is an entry I found: 4 small Penns spells quality tins manufactured @ factory 33 N.C. - two tins with tax stamps; 1916 & 1910; cancellation unknown. They obviously continued to produce tobacco after the breakup. In addition I found some Peerless paper tobacco packages for the F.F. Adams company listing the ATC incorporated as successor. I am still working on the can manufacturer thing. Maybe we can find an historian with files or knowledge of the tin manufacturer that would have produced the tin. You guys are so good you beat me to finding the factory. I'm not done yet <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Ted Z. - if you happen by this - has it been determined the # of known examples with and without a glossy surface? Sorry if this was covered but you guys are so fast and prolific - it's often hard to keep up.......

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01-16-2009, 01:55 AM

Posted By: Mr. MosesThat appears to come from an American Tobacco Company edition I have on the shelves. I'll glance thru it this weekend....

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01-16-2009, 05:48 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI think at last count there are only 13 (or perhaps 14) Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb cards. My understanding is that some have a glossy front and some do not. I don't know how this is determined, since (with the exception of the Ty Cobb in Richard Russell's collection) they are all enclosed in Graded plastic. Which makes it somewhat difficult to discern the extent of the gloss on these Ty Cobb cards. It is said that T206's do not have gloss; and, for the most part they don't. However, I have a T206 Downs card with an obvious glossy front. I do not think I have satisfactorily answered your question. But, I think I've given you some thought-provoking words. TED Z

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01-16-2009, 05:53 AM

Posted By: leonI thought this was pretty cool... Notice the factory # on the front of the building. I post this in part, because it could provide a lead to someone? Who knows... <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1232214646.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> edited scan size

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01-17-2009, 06:51 AM

Posted By: Dave HornishPaging thru my copy of Sold American!....F.R. Penn is described as a "plugmaking subsidiary" that made Penn's Natural, Red J, and Gold Crumbs. Penn's No. 1 also seems to have been produced as plug and smoking tobacco and there is a railcar pictures describing Gold Crumbs as smoking tobacco as well. There were four primary subsidiaries in the plug group (chewing tobacco)and Penn seems to have been the smallest. The most unfortunates parts of this book are the lack of any real emphasis on the cards and the glossing over of the breakup in 1911. Not unexpected for a book produced for ATC's 50th anniversary though.

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01-19-2009, 11:44 AM

Posted By: AnonymousDouble post

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01-19-2009, 11:45 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisLet us see what we have learned here. Early in 1910 national newspaper's were reporting of the Ty Cobb "pipe" tobacco. The tin advertises Granulated Cut Plug Tobacco; and, that certainly works for pipe tobacco. The artwork on this Ty Cobb tin is borrowed from the T206 Cobb (bat on shoulder) card...... issued in 1909. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/cobbatsovereign150.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> However, the picture on the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back card is the RED portrait version. That tells us that this Ty Cobb back card most likely was NOT inserted in this tobacco tin.... as, the T206 Red portrait Cobb was not issued until the Summer of 1910. And, I think we can assume that the same printing plate was used to produce the front of the Ty Cobb back card. So, my guess is that the Ty Cobb back card stands alone as an advertising premium for the Ty Cobb pipe tobacco. And, that it was privately distributed in limited quantities in late 1910 or early 1911, concurrent with the T206 Red portrait Ty Cobb card. Which was issued during this period with 24 different T-backs (more than any other T206 Subject). The Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card would then be the 25th back on Cobb's Red portrait cards. Having said that; though, I am not inferring that this card is part of the T206 set. TED Z

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01-19-2009, 02:03 PM

Posted By: E, DanielI'm starting to believe.... That perhaps the ty cobb/ty cobb was not produced as a give away to the public (thousands would have needed to be produced and many more would have survived), but rather as a limited production marketing issue sent direct to drug stores/tobacconists of the era to announce the coming of a new brand. My theory goes the idea for Ty Cobb branded tobacco was thrown up internally at ATC, and 50-100 or so tins were lithographed with his bat on image for 'sampling' or product announcement to local Georgia businesses. What better place to kick start the product, and with the idea of selling nationally thereafter (thus the ads in papers across the country). Because of the wide popularity and success of tobacco cards amongst children and Adults, it was decided that a small run of Cobb branded backs on his red portrait card would be produced to include as a sweetner or gift to enthuse business owners to carry and promote the brand. The mismatch in visage between tin and card was likely an oversight of communication between the project manager given the task at ATC and the printer, or not considered overly important when the card itself was not planned as a mass give-away. And there would always be enough time if the feedback was sufficiently positive to create a matched product, if the inserting of a card in pocket tin tobacco made sense. When the break up of ATC happened the idea to go ahead with Ty Cobb tobacco died, and thus many of the recipients of the sample product simply threw away the marketing pieces because there was no real reason to keep them around. Only a lucky few were kept by some fans of the day, and that's what we are left with now.

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01-19-2009, 04:16 PM

Posted By: 1880nonsportsSnuff, plug, and other minor tobacco manufacturers were slowly being bought up by the ATC up until the breakup. Cards had already been proven a successful marketing tool. Most of their production was in cigarettes but they were diversifying as they grew, They decided to name a brand after a southern superstar baseball player. It was a relatively new (and short lived) "granulated plug tobacco" that could be smoked in a pipe (least popular mode after snuff of ingesting tobacco in the period) or rolled in a cigarette. They designed a tin showing him with a bat on pose and so a portrait image was suggested for the card to differentiate it from the image on the tin - or as the manufacture and sale of these minor types of tobacco products came with small margins - perhaps there were extra sheets laying around and they just used them. I personally would have switched the two images <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">. Maybe as few as 2 sheets might have been produced and but a handful of tins as they planned to introduce the brand. We have no evidence of the tin with tobacco actually ON the shelves..... In reviewing a non-glossy uncut sheet they were presenting - perhaps someone opined that a glossy front might protect the card (they already had experience with Polar) from the product and they made at least one (if in fact examples in both states exist as suggested earlier). The card after all was an important vehicle to carry their advertising message. I would guess that following their "notices" in the rags they just abandoned the plan to make it. Hundreds and probably thousands of brands never made it to market. The notices in 1910 disturb me a bit as it's a better story if it was from late 1911 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">. Things like the find of 5 of these rare cards found in one place and at one time while nearly absent in the marketplace - makes the idea that they were never distributed ring more true for me. Perhaps those and the other examples survived just as many printer's scraps and other annomalies do today - 100 or so years later - cut from the sheets and saved by someone for love of a peach. I think it's a card. I don't think it's a T206 as I'm not sure the category itself is well defined. I don't think it was ever IN a tin. I think it was planned to put it in the tin. I don't think the Pirate cards were ever distributed either.....

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01-20-2009, 11:10 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI'm curious as to why you are saying this ?........ " The notices in 1910 disturb me a bit as it's a better story if it was from late 1911. " TED Z

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01-21-2009, 01:05 AM

Posted By: 1880nonsportsa dangerous undertaking - that if it were closer to the dissolution of the trust - then it would be more credible perhaps that the factory 33 became a part of the ATC later into the distribution of the cards (perhaps already declining) - the idea came about for the cards - and then with the dissolution - the Adams company gets taken over by different owners/management or sumptin and aborted the idea of the brand. It may even have happened that in 1910 they were already part of the ATC - sold before the breakup and just as the brand was about to go into production - the idea is aborted for legal or other reasons. If I accept that the brand wasn't actually sold over the counter - I've always strongly believed it has to be classified on it's own - as it wasn't an item distributed in the intended fashion. For me (minority view I'm sure) these might not even be "cards"...... I am really new to the T issues - just wetting my whistle. At this point I'm gonna sit back and listen more - while I look over some of the great reference reading Richard Rubin sent me - as well as the few sites devoted to the subject - and finally the greally great threads you and a few others have presented. I'm really quite busy trying to tie down the Marquis of Lorne card and Between the Acts distribution on the N/S side. Even with no life there's no time to get it all done. I did find one of the Bray articles interesting where it suggested the distribution of a typical series was often limited to but a few weeks. It certainly would make sense in the framework of later 19th century inserts - do you think it held true for most of the 1910 releases?? edited to try and clean some gramatical errors - apologize that it's some late night rambling......

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01-23-2009, 10:32 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJIM B I think this is the Ty Cobb thread you just requested in a new thread to be brought back up to the top. You're welcome, TED Z

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01-26-2009, 11:15 AM

Posted By: ShawnI am not sure what the article below is about, because I do not have a subscription to the site... I sure would like to read it though! I have noticed that the "Ty Cobb" brand advertisements are prodominately in the "Macon Weekly Telegraph" paper in Ga. The months seem to be Feb. and Mar. of 1910. If someone has a subscription to genealogybank.com, it would be nice to see some of the full adds. (there seems to be some full page adds) "Macon Weekly Telegraph" 1910 <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/cutplug1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tyhomerun1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tymakeitright1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/typackage1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/typure1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tyright1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tysmile1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tysmooth1.jpg" alt="[linked image]">