M116 and T206 Connection [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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01-22-2009, 03:38 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishI have just read Tim Newcomb's excellent M116 article in Old Cardboard and it has triggered something that may or may not make sense. I e-mailed Tim about it and he has to think on it a bit. Anyway, it goes something like this.... I am wondering if there is any connection between T206/ATC ads being dropped by Sporting Life (interestingly, a Philadelphia based magazine) after 9/18/09 and portraits being pulled from the 150 series in T206. Is it possible that in an attempt to freeze out ATC, Sporting Life bought exclusive rights from Carl Horner for some portraits, which resulted in several cards/players being pulled outright from the 150 (and maybe 150/350) series of T206 and resulting in others being issued in alternate, non-portrait poses in the 350 runs of T206? I'd have to do more research but it suddenly seems possible to me, especially as the Wagner and Plank portraits are the same in M116 and T206. The 350 back Planks are a bit of a wild card but perhaps some legal tussling occurred that occasioned ATC to reintroduce Plank for a short run in 1910. Also, any idea if the Owners of Sporting Life had a connection with American Caramel? The Philly connection is looming larger and larger and this is all wild ass guesswork right now but I want to get your thoughts folks. The Philly connection likely screwed up the 1951 Topps Major League All Stars too. Funny how in 2009, Philly still wants to kick NYC's butt like it was 100 years ago.

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01-22-2009, 05:39 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldDave, that insight into the Carl Horner images makes some sense to me. Good thinking!!!

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01-22-2009, 06:52 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisDAVE This sounds interesting; however, right off the bat, I can see two major inconsistencies. 1st....The majority of the 150 Series cards of the T206 set depict the player's portraits. The subsequent 350 and 460 series depicted the action poses. 2nd....The timeline of the American Caramel (ACC) sets E91 and E90-1, T206, and M116 does not follow your premise...... Year issued...........Set 1908...........E91-1 1908...........E90-1 (1st Series) 1909...........T206 (150 Series) 1910...........M116 Perhaps, I'm not fully understanding what you are saying. So, I have to fall back on my ACC vs ATC theory regarding Plank, Collins, and 10 other A's players that ACC printed first in 1908 and were not in the 150 Series of the T206 set. TED Z

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01-22-2009, 08:50 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldIsn't the red Cobb portrait card possible in Piedmont 460?? Was that a Carl Horner image??

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01-22-2009, 09:40 PM

Posted By: KevinI think the two go together just fine! This proves there is definitely a connection. <img src="http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/2276/t206slah6.jpg" border="0" alt="t206slah6.jpg"> ------------------------------ <a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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01-23-2009, 05:31 AM

Posted By: Dave HornishLike I said, it's a theory and more research is required and it likely would only form part of the puzzle if valid. You have the player permissions in the mix and also the American Caramel/Philly connection as well. I'm specifically interested in the use and licensing of the Horner portraits and how those licensing rights (or whatever they would have been called in '09) may have played a role in which players/portraits ended up pulled from T206. I would think there was more than one variety of licensing for varying periods of time. This could all be wrong, I've had wild ass guesses proven incorrect before. It just seems the connection could be there. As a start, how many early series T206 portraits are in the M116's? I have to try and look at some of those this weekend. Cheers,all.

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01-23-2009, 08:10 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisFRANK Yes....the red Cobb portrait card exists as a Piedmont 460/25 and 460/42. DAVE For whatever it is worth.....63 of the 156 cards in the T206 - 150 Series are portraits. And, many of these same portraits are then depicted in the M116 set. Except for Wagner....the M116 Wagner is the same portrait found in the E90-2 set. TED Z

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01-23-2009, 08:56 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorI like this theory a lot. The fact that the majority of the 150 Series cards of the T206 set depict the player's portraits, but then the subsequent 350 and 460 Series depected the action poses, while M116 took over the portraits in 1910 is too great a coincidence to be mere happenstance, in my opinion. Further research would be very useful. But the Cobb, Chase and Chance "Super Printed" portraits defy the theory. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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01-23-2009, 09:43 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldI like this idea, too. what we need is a list of all white border portraits, and then to whom the photograph is attributed. Also, see if Horner did any of the action images. Still, another way to look at it is that both T206 and M116 commenced with primarily portrait cards... then the T206 change isn't as significant. I still think there may well be merit to the Horner idea. Sporting Life curtailed the tobacco ads that showed ball cards when SL commenced with their own cards.

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01-23-2009, 10:13 AM

Posted By: Dave HornishTed, quite right on the Wagner portrait. I wonder if the M116 is also by Horner. Dueling portraits? (I can hear the banjos now....)

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01-23-2009, 10:37 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzSeems to me that Horner portraits were widely used in the Colgan issues that spanned 1909-1913, which would weigh against any SL exclusivity.

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01-23-2009, 11:14 AM

Posted By: AnonymousDouble post

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01-23-2009, 11:18 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere is the complete list of the T206 portraits in the 1st Series issued in 1909. 150 Series......63 Portrait cards Ames Beaumont Bender Bowerman Bradley Bresnahan Bridwell M Brown Chance Chase Chesbro F Clarke Cobb Crandall Criger Dahlen Devlin Donovan Dooin Dougherty Durham Elberfeld Evers Gibson Griffith Jennings Johnson F Jones Jordan Joss Keeler Kling Lajoie Leach Lobert Lumley Lundgren Magee Mathewson McGraw Merkle O'Leary Overall Parent Plank Rucker Spade Steinfeldt Stone Stovall Sullivan Tenney Tinker Turner Waddell Honus Wagner Wallace Walsh Weimer Doc White Willis Wiltse CYoung OK guys, I generated this list....I leave it up to you guys to find out whose photos they are. TED Z

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01-23-2009, 03:26 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishThanks Ted. I'll match portraits and post the shortened list later on.

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01-23-2009, 04:45 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIf you are interested, I also have the lists of the portraits of the 350 and 460 Series cards ? Quite a number of them are the same as the M116 portraits. TED Z

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01-23-2009, 05:02 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishTed, not sure as I think the theory is being disproven. Here's what I found using the Classic Baseball Cards book for M116 and VCP for T206. The matches from Ted's list above (asterisks mean I am 99% certain it's a match) are: Beaumont (Team Change in M116) Bender Bradley Chase Cobb Criger Dahlen Dooin Dougherty Evers Griffith Jennings * Joss Kling Lajoie * Leach Magee O'Leary Overall Plank Spade Steinfeldt Sullivan * Tinker Turner Waddell Wallace Walsh * Doc White Willis (75% certain) Wiltse (50% certain) CYoung I can't find a picture of Parent in M116 so don't know. I also noticed there are no team ids or logos on the M116 uniforms. You all can draw your own conclusions but I'm leaning against my own theory now after looking at this list. It looks like just about 50% of the portraits from the 150 series have matches in M116. I suspect the ratio holds for the 350 and 460 series cards as well.

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01-24-2009, 07:17 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldA portrait pose would have been a more traditional pose 100 years ago. That could be why many of the 150 series cards are portraits. So who would have been the first player depicted in the white border tobacco set to have a second card / second pose distributed? And if it wasn't a single player, which players would have been in that first group?? Frank