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01-19-2009, 04:51 PM

Posted By: Phil GarryWith the recent conversation about how board members feel about newspaper supplements such as M101-1's, what are your thoughts on the series of 40+ Harper's Weekly woodcuts that are catalogued in Lew Lipset's 3-volume Baseball Card Encyclopedia? Are these undervalued collectibles that will gain more appreciation in the future as many pre-date the traditional rookies issued by Old Judge, etc.? How do they compare to supplements/premiums such as M101-1's?

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01-19-2009, 05:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloatePhil- the Harper's Woodcuts are neat collectibles, but the fact is they have decreased in value considerably over the years. In the 1990's it wasn't hard to sell them for $75-125 each. Today they might sell in the $25-50 range. They are quite plentiful and there aren't that many collectors. Look at them as an inexpensive way to collect vintage 19th century baseball.

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01-19-2009, 06:49 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe most desirable and by far most expensive of the woodcuts is a c. 1865 Leslie's Illustrated one featuring James Creighton. If you can get your hands on that one, that's the magazine woodcut to own. It's much rarer than most other of the woodcuts, is visually striking and ornate, and there is very little 1860s Creighton material around.

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01-19-2009, 07:58 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere's my "technicolor" woodcut of HARRY WRIGHT's 27-foot long "Big Bat" award ....Harper's July 1869 artwork <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aharrywrightbigbat.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z

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01-19-2009, 08:06 PM

Posted By: davidcycleback<img src="http://www.cycleback.com/harpers_files/h703.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.cycleback.com/1800s/Image374.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-19-2009, 08:14 PM

Posted By: Jeff PriznerI like them a lot... <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/bicem/imagehostingmisc/websize/Harpers.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-19-2009, 08:45 PM

Posted By: davidcycleback<img src="http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/deercreekindians2.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-19-2009, 10:08 PM

Posted By: john wI have several dozen woodcuts of which many were purchased off of the BST. Twenty framed ones adorn my basement walls and for the price are the best value of any 19th century collectible. It is amazing that I can purchase a nice team example for $30 where twenty years ago, the same would cost me $75-$100. Barry, you mentioned that they are plentiful, but do you think that a collector could accumulate more of a Harpers individual than say an N28 specimen (HOF not even in the equation)? My guess is not. Perhaps the only thing rarer than a woodcut is a woodcut collector! Anyway, they are some of my favorite collectibles, but I've always been somewhat of a contrarian. BTW, there is a definitive checklist posted on the BST board under Baseball Memorabilia in a post Titled "Harper's Woodcuts" by Glenn.

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01-19-2009, 10:47 PM

Posted By: Rob LHere's my copies of the Leslie's - Creighton woodcut: <img src="http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f258/loefflerrd/1865woodcut.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Rob L <a href="http://www.freewebs.com/loefflerrd" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.freewebs.com/loefflerrd</a>/

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01-20-2009, 04:27 AM

Posted By: barrysloateHi John- I'm not sure I fully understand your question (the word "individual" throws me), but if you are asking can a collector accumulate a large or complete collection of Harper's- absolutely. An enormous number of Harper's have survived over the years, mostly in bound volumes. You would think something printed on thin newspaper stock would be scarce, but these baseball woodcuts are not. And yes, there are less collectors today than in the past. The hobby is changing, and most of it as we know has gravitated toward the slab. That's collecting life.

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01-20-2009, 05:50 AM

Posted By: Frank Wakefieldfewer, not less... I have about a dozen of 'em, and kinda like 'em. Ewing standing tall taking up all of the front page... the Chicago team with Anson, Williamson, Clarkson, Kelly, and Billy Sunday. Some neat stuff... But my favorite (probably because I so enjoyed "If I Never Get Back", almost the best baseball novel ever written) would be my page from the July 3, 1869 issue of Harper's. Across the top of page 421 is the woodcut of the "Red Stocking" Base-ball Club, Cincinnati. It the little article on the back, "On the 16th they beat the "Mutuals" and the next day the "Atlantics" of Brooklyn. The later game was won 32 to 10. If the "Red Stockings" keep on and hold their own, they will be the champion club before the summer is ended. Hurrah for the Porkopolitans!" The team did 'hold their own'. Reckon this woodcut antedates the Peck and Snyder??? <img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/HarperswoodcutRedstockings2.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-20-2009, 06:44 AM

Posted By: johnBarry, Just wanted to get your opinion on population of a specific woodcut, say the Chicago team w/ Anson vs. an Anson N28. Would there be more cards or woodcuts?

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01-20-2009, 07:18 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThat's a tough call. Both are reasonably available, but there is far more demand for the remaining N28's. An N28 Anson will set you back quite a bit, while a Harper's woodcut featuring either the 1882 or 1885 Chicago team is pretty inexpensive. Noboby has ever tried to figure the population of the woodcuts.

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01-20-2009, 07:27 AM

Posted By: JosephWhat's with the "hand-colored" woodcuts that turn up for sale from time to time (like the Harry Wright posted in this thread)? Are they period? Are they colored later to enhance? Are they original?

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01-20-2009, 07:55 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThe newspaper only issued them in black and white, and while it was a common practice during the period to hand color them, there is no way to know for sure when it was done.

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01-20-2009, 10:44 AM

Posted By: doug goodmanHi all - I love the Harper's woodcuts, as well as those from Leslie's. Here is the checklist I use for HW. As many of you know, there is a pictorial checklist of many Harper's woodcuts in issue #14 of the Vintage & Classic Baseball Collector (VCBC) from Jan/Feb 1998. I have incorporated the VCBC checklist into my own : date - page - VCBC# - Illustration Description 10/15/59 - 664/665 - 1 - A BB Match at The Elysian Fields, Hoboken 10/15/59 - 660 - x - English Cricketeers - The Eleven of England 10/22/59 - 688 - x - Cricket 03/23/61 - cover - 2 - Abner Doubleday is in a picture of soldiers at Ft Sumter 11/18/65 - 733 - 3 - BB Match between Athletics and Atlantics 11/25/65 - 741 - 4 - Champion Nine Atlantic BBC of Brooklyn 11/03/66 - 697 - 5 - Brooklyn Atlantics vs Phil. Athletics / Champ 9 of Atlantic BBC 12/08/66 - 775 - x - Base-ball Illustrated (cartoons) 08/03/67 - 488/489 - x - The College Regatta and Ball Match at Worcester, MA 7-19-1867 10/26/67 - 684 - 6 - Champion Nine - Union Club - Morrisania NY (1/2 page) 05/16/68 - cover - 7 - George Sands - cover 09/12/68 - 587 - x - The National Game (cartoon) 10/03/68 - 636 - x - Cricket 07/03/69 - 421 - 8 - Picked Nine of Red Stocking Club of Cincinnati Ohio (1/2 page) 07/24/69 - 477 - 9 - Presentation Of Championship Bat to Red Stockings 07/02/70 - 424/425 - 10 - BB match between Red Stockings and Atlantics (1/2 page) 06/27/74 - 536 - 11 - International Baseball - The Boston Champions 07/25/74 - 624 - 12 - International Baseball - The Philladelphia Athletics 09/05/74 - 733 - 13 - Base-Ball in England Red Stocking vs Athletics 09/12/74 - 756 - 14 - Match of Red Stockings and Athletics 09/12/74 - 761 - 15 - Maple Leaf BBC 10/03/74 - 819 - x - The Great Game of Political Baseball - Tally 1 for Maine (cartoon) 07/27/78 - 588 - 16 - BB at Blackville - 1st blood for Black Legs (cartoon) 10/19/78 - ??? - x - Cricket match 9 X 14 11/01/79 - 865 - x - International Crickett Match at Philadelphia 05/14/81 - 320 - 17 - Princeton College BB Nine 08/05/82 - 493 - 18 - The Metropolitan Nine (1/2 page) 09/30/82 - 621 - 19 - The Providence BBC 10/14/82 - 652 - 20 - The Chicago BBC 04/14/83 - 240 - x - Another field of American Industry invaded by the Chinese 05/12/83 - 292 - 21 - The New BB Grounds at Chicago 06/09/83 - 364 - 22 - Baseball of the Future 10/13/83 - 653 - 23/24 - BB Champions of 1883 / Boston BBC 01/26/84 - 64 - x - Base-Ball on Skates, Washington Park, Brooklyn 07/19/84 - 471 - x - A Base-Ball Episode (cartoon) 05/02/85 - 279 - x - A Sound Base-ist (cartoon - somewhat baseball related) 05/16/85 - 312 - 25 - Champion BB Players (early all-star team?) 06/06/85 - 359 - x - A Moment of Excitement (cartoon) 08/22/85 - 549 - 26 - The Winning Run, How is it Umpire? (Chi vs NY) 10/17/85 - 684 - 27 - Chicago BBC w/Anson & Kelly (1/2 page) 05/08/86 - 300 - 28 - A Double Play- First League Game (NY vs Bos) 05/15/86 - 309 - 29 - New Metropolitan BB Grounds on Staten Island (1/2 page) 09/25/86 - ??? - x - International Crickett Match at Nicetown, PA 04/02/87 - 243 - x - A New Lucrative Profession Discovered (cartoon) 05/21/87 - 372 - x - Well Grounded (cartoon) 05/28/87 - 389 - x - A Spring Auction in Rural PA - A Game Of Ball (cartoon) 06/04/87 - 411 - x - Off His Base (cartoon) 09/03/87 - 639 - x - The National Game (cartoon) 09/10/87 - 648/649 - 30 - Thrown Out At Second (very dramatic action) (dbl page) 10/29/87 - 787 - x - Impressions Of Our Base-Ball Artist (cartoon) 10/29/87 - 791 - x - A Bad Defeat (cartoon) 11/26/87 - 859 - x - A Base-Ball Game on the Haight Street Grounds - SF 06/23/88 - 455 - 31 - The Base-ball Championship Cup 07/28/88 - cover - 32 - A Ball or a Strike, Which? (cover) (fantastic scene) 09/01/88 - ??? - x - BB Craze - Climax at Polo Grounds 09/15/88 - 699 - x - The Ruling Passion (cartoon) 10/13/88 - 783 - x - A Matter of Environment (cartoon) 10/20/88 - 793 - 33 - Winning Battery of NY Team (1/2 pg) Keefe & Ewing (both HOF) 10/27/88 - 820 - 34 - 2 Popular St Louis Players (1/2 page) (Comiskey & Latham) 01/12/89 - cover - x - Farmer Stebbins at the Bat (cover) 04/27/89 - 328 - 35 - The 1st League Game of Base-Ball of the Season 06/08/89 - 464 - x - Injured (cartoon) 06/22/89 - 493 - x - The Newhalls, The Great American Cricketeers 06/22/89 - 508 - 36 - The National Game ( comic ) 08/31/89 - 704/705 - 37 - A Collegiate Game of BB (dbl page) 10/12/89 - 820 - x - In a time to come (cartoon) 10/19/89 - 838 - x - Nota Bene, Boston (cartoon) 11/09/89 - cover - 38 - William 'Buck' Ewing - Captain of NY Club (cover) 03/08/90 - 185 - 39 - A game of BB in the 13th Armory, Brooklyn 05/03/90 - 353/356 - 40 - Opening of 1890 BB Season (2 pages, both sides) 08/30/90 - 687 - x - A Strictly Amateur Nine (cartoon) 04/18/91 - 287 - x - The Social Ball Rolls Out as the National Game Comes In 06/13/91 - 448 - x - Princeton and Yale Team Pix 09/26/91 - 720 - 41 - Manhattan Athletic Club Grounds 10/10/91 - 786 - x - "No Muff this time" - Boston Championship 1891 (cartoon) 07/07/94 - ??? - x - College BB player pix 07/28/00 - 706 - x - Page #706 is baseball cartoons 05/31/02 - ??? - <11> - International Champions - Boston Champions (reprint of 6/27/1874) 05/02/08 - cover - x - Cover is a pitcher These are every picture or cartoon, referencing baseball or cricket, that I have been able to find in Harper's Weekly pre-1900. I would be curious to see a similar list from Leslie's if anyone has compiled one. I have many of my Harper's woodcuts posted to my flickr site, in case anybody cares to see them. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/douggoodman/sets/72157612023646769" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/douggoodman/sets/72157612023646769</a>/ Doug

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01-20-2009, 11:07 AM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI don't know about all the 1800s guides, but I had an 1890s Spalding Guide and all the illustrations were woodcuts-- with nice portraits of King Kelly etc. Woodcut printing was rarely used with baseball cards or posters, but was most commonly used commercially in periodical publishing-- thus woodcuts in books and magazines. For those who didn't read the other thread, woodcut prints were printed from handcarved blocks of woods. Harper's employed professional craftsmen to carve the blocks of wood, and for especially large ornate designs it could take over a week to create the finished block of wood. This is the similar way famous artists like Albrecht Durer and Picasso made their woodcuts prints. While the Harper's woodcuts were simply magazine pictures, they are original, handmade prints. By the 1900s, modern efficient photographic reproduction/halftone methods were devised and the handmade printing for books, magazines and newspapers was no longer used. In the fine arts, the Harper's woodcuts would be cataloged as "original" or "handmade" prints, because they were printed directly from handmade printing plates. This is the printing equivalent to an original photograph or original painting. So the Harper's woodcuts have both pedestrian (magazine pictures surrounded by articles) and genuine fine art qualities. They're sort of a cross between original art and your morning newspaper-- which seems oxymoronic to many modern collectors. The short answer is in the 1800s they didn't the have modern 20th century technology, and all the graphics for magazines and books and posters was done the way it was done in the 1700s and 1400s-- by hand. Duly note that 1800s Allen & Ginters, Goodwins, trade cards, tobacco posters, labels and albums are also handmade prints. Your Allen & Ginter Jack Glasscock was made in the same handmade way as a Marc Chagall lithograph in a museum. Picasso and Chagall made original posters for advertising purposes and Durer's wife sold his original woodcuts at local fairs, so it's not as if commerce and fine art can't exist together.

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01-20-2009, 11:53 AM

Posted By: D. BerginAs a Boxing collector I love all the old Woodcuts and Steel engravings. It's the only way to get an image of most of the old Bareknuckle fighters. The most well known is probably the Harper's and Leslies full centerfold spread of the John C. Heenan vs. Tom Sayers fight of 1860 (actually the Leslies was actually a huge multi-page fold-out). Amazing that an almost 150 year-old piece of memorabilia like this can often be had for under 75 bucks. The Illustrated Sporting News of London actually had some beautiful large woodcuts/engravings of boxers going all the way back to around 1840 or so in their weekly periodicals.

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01-20-2009, 05:26 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldNice list, Doug. I'm not feeling much love here for Harper's woodcuts. The Chicago Base-Ball Club. October 14th, 1882. Looking pretty good for 125 years of age. And count those HOFers there with Billy Sunday. <img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/HarperswoodcutChicago.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-20-2009, 05:38 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Frank,the picture you posted is not from 1882. It is the 1885 team picture. Don't get my hopes up,I want the one with Corcoran on it

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01-20-2009, 05:44 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldRight you are, John. I'll acknowledge it here and not go amend my post above... How about instead I post the 1882 Chicago woodcut to which you refer. Mine's on the entire page... <img src="http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/HarperswoodcutChicago1882-1.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-20-2009, 05:54 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Yup,there's the one I want <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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01-20-2009, 08:46 PM

Posted By: doug goodmanThank you Frank. I just sent you an email. John - I think I may have a duplicate of the 1882 Chicago BBC, I'll try to dig it out. Send me an email and if you want to work out a deal (assuming I can find it). Doug

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01-21-2009, 04:29 AM

Posted By: Phil GarryDoug: Thank you for posting your checklist, very informative!!!

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01-21-2009, 10:40 AM

Posted By: doug goodmanYou're welcome, Phil. It was my pleasure. Doug