WOW! PSA! T206 DOYLE! WOW!!!!! [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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01-08-2009, 11:01 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...is that it is a card irresponsibly created by PSA for use in its coffee table book and not intended for distribution. That is, I doubt that PSA unwittingly authenticated such a blatant fake. Not that they haven't or wouldn't -- but given PSA's decision to showcase this card, I have to believe they made the card for their book -- as opposed to use a fake (poorly catalogued at that) for their book. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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01-08-2009, 11:07 AM

Posted By: JimBThe card was not made by PSA. It is in collector hands. JimB

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01-08-2009, 11:07 AM

Posted By: Scott SarianThe fact that the cert # in the picture checks out on the PSA site as a legit card is disturbing, if in fact the card is as obvious of a fake as has been stated...

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01-08-2009, 11:17 AM

Posted By: T206Collector"The card was not made by PSA. It is in collector hands." The simple explanation is usually the truth. It is just mind-boggling. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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01-08-2009, 11:20 AM

Posted By: leonMonths ago I saw a scan of this and was informed about it by a confidential source. I am not an expert on the subject so will defer to those that are....regards

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01-08-2009, 11:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIt's one of those cards that on a first glance you say "that doesn't look right."

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01-08-2009, 11:35 AM

Posted By: SteveJust another PSA mistake, why all the fuss? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif"> Steve

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01-08-2009, 12:13 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldThe "Polar Bear" issue aside, can someone please explain to me where the typeset is off? Yes, I did read the full REA blog and I enlarged the PSA photo and put it next to the extra-large (and clear) image of the SGC Doyle REA provides on the blog a few posts down. I, for some reason, cannot pick up on the differences in text. It could be I'm just missing it but can someone show me where they are different? Edited to add: It could just be I'm not seeing a clear enough scan of the PSA 5 example. I just can't see what Leon, et al were refering to above when I try to make out the different sizes of the typset.

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01-08-2009, 12:30 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI'd like to know what happens at PSA when a high profile card like a Doyle NY NATL comes in. Does it just go through the same scrutiny any regular old card gets or do the graders (and Joe?) get together and discuss it before entombing it?

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01-08-2009, 12:39 PM

Posted By: peter ullmanDan....good point...I've heard it said that every order is handled the same...how could it be? If it were my business...there'd be committee grading...to achieve better consistency...like diving...take the highest and lowest score and throw them away and avg the rest. It would be a special occasion where rare and special cards came in and I'd want everyone to see them and help evaluate...sounds like fun to me! How can REA be sure there are no more of these...unless all 3 originated from the same original source? There are definitely thousands of undiscovered...most likely original T-206's out there..somewhere?

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01-08-2009, 12:44 PM

Posted By: DougI figure the head graders would be the ones to look at all the high dollar cards, but that's just a guess.

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01-08-2009, 12:58 PM

Posted By: marshall barkmanPeter is right there are 1000's of undiscovered T-206's out there....i bought over 400 undiscovered T-206's about 8 months ago and am currently looking at another collection of over 600 that have been stored away for over 90 years. All i can say is that i would like to have been in the tobacco business back at the turn of the century.

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01-08-2009, 01:02 PM

Posted By: CoreyRSh.anusSomething like this can put skilled forgers out of business. After all, isn't it pretty neat that if you're not good at that sort of thing, not only will your work pass muster, but it will be even more valuable than a deftly-done forgery because it will be perceived as a new variation?

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01-08-2009, 01:21 PM

Posted By: randi do not belong to the psa boards, i do not know what is protocal there. what i have heard is psa will screen the commments and remove any negative remarks against the company. this being said... will Orlando post a message with an answer about this card, mistake or not, will psa take responsibilty publicly?????

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01-08-2009, 01:21 PM

Posted By: JimB <a href="http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/4825/jpgdoylesx8.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"></a> <a href="http://g.imageshack.us/img118/jpgdoylesx8.jpg/1/" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/jpgdoylesx8.jpg/1/w948.png" border="0" alt="w948.png"></a> <a href="http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4999/t206doylenyconlinak1.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"></a> <a href="http://g.imageshack.us/img134/t206doylenyconlinak1.jpg/1/" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/t206doylenyconlinak1.jpg/1/w634.png" border="0" alt="w634.png"></a>

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01-08-2009, 01:42 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldWow - I certainly see the difference now. ====================================== For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit <a href="http://www.baseballandtobacco.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballandtobacco.com</a>

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01-08-2009, 01:45 PM

Posted By: AdamCan someone crop in on just the "N.Y. NAT'L" parts of both cards above and post just that? I would do it myself if I knew how.

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01-08-2009, 01:48 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedRecall our discussion about 2 months ago on this forum....... I said...... "There are at least 4 - 6 other "Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l" cards in circulation that are GRADED....and, are FAKES ! You replied...... "What scares me the most about what you've said are the implications. A number of fake Doyle errors have already been slabbed. Yet to an expert such as yourself they are detectable due to the lettering being off." Well, it was just a matter of time; and, one of these fakes has surfaced....and, no less it is the "POLAR BEAR" version ! ! So, where are the others ? TED Z

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01-08-2009, 01:54 PM

Posted By: PCJon: I realize you answered your own question already, but (to state the obvious) the two problems with the PSA 6 Doyle font are: (1) the location of the printing at the bottom of the PSA 6 version is not lined-up the same (from the left and right margins) as on real T206 Doyle's; and (2) the PSA 6 font is simply different -- each letter appears slightly wider than on a real Doyle (this seems most obvious to me on the "D" and the "O"). One would think that such a rare card would be subject to stricter standards at PSA. Joe Orlando himself should be the one double-checking the graders and comparing scans of real Doyle NY Nat'ls before sealing that slab. Really, how hard would it be to send scans to one or two T206 experts, to get their "off the record" opinions. There are a dozen people on this board alone that would have determined that card was a fake from a scan, in 30 seconds, and have done it for free. Amazingly stupid. And add to that the Polar Bear back, and it is an even more ridiculous mistake (since Piedmont 350 is the only known back for the Doyle Nat'l).

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01-08-2009, 01:56 PM

Posted By: Jim VBAdam, As requested: PSA 6 <img src="http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb189/jvb6034/doylepsa6.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> PSA 2 <img src="http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb189/jvb6034/doylepsa2.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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01-08-2009, 01:57 PM

Posted By: JKIf Im not mistaken, the difference is that each letter of NAT'L on the fake are the same sized caps, while on the original, the "N" is a larger sized cap while the "AT'L" are smaller caps. Hasn't this always been considered a dead giveaway of a fake t206?

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01-08-2009, 02:00 PM

Posted By: AdamWow, thanks Jim, that's clear as day and night now.

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01-08-2009, 02:02 PM

Posted By: JKIsn't it ironic that this fake is prominently displayed in a coffee table book published by PSA?

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01-08-2009, 02:02 PM

Posted By: leonHow many vouchers will PSA have to give to fix this one?

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01-08-2009, 02:17 PM

Posted By: Jim VB"I'd like to know what happens at PSA when a high profile card like a Doyle NY NATL comes in." Here's my best guess: 1. Open the package. 2. Determine if it belongs to Dan McKee. If yes, toss the cards out with the box (This save time later.) 3. Determine if it belongs to MB3 or macboube. If yes, lower the grade on every card by at least 2 grades. 4. Determine if it belongs to one of the "BIG" auction houses (You know, not Barry Sloate or B & L.) If yes, raise the grade on every card by at least 2 grades. 5. Return the cards at least 2 weeks after they are due. Incidentally, I've garnered this info without ever using PSA, but by only reading the boards here!

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01-08-2009, 02:22 PM

Posted By: PCJim: that is exactly what happens, except you left out the very first step, which is: 1.A. remember to affix your PSA Grader badge to your "I'm an asshat" t-shirt.

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01-08-2009, 02:30 PM

Posted By: JimB"the $64000 question" I think this one is going to cost them well into six figures. It is not pretty. jimB

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01-08-2009, 02:38 PM

Posted By: Scot Reader Disturbing. PSA needs to deslab that card in a hurry.

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01-08-2009, 02:39 PM

Posted By: CoreyRSh.anusI do remember that exchange. What has been added to the mix now (and IMO hilariously so) is the notion that instead of regarding a variation in the lettering as evidence of a fake, it is being used as evidence of the card being a newly-discovered version of an original! And all because PSA slabbed it! Maybe if those guys gave their blessing to GM and Ford stock, the whole auto crisis could have been avoided.

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01-08-2009, 02:44 PM

Posted By: DougAre any of these Doyle cards legit or are some just better fakes that actually got the lettering right?

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01-08-2009, 03:15 PM

Posted By: Mike I know we bash PSA a lot, but at least they generally get "Polar" spelled correctly. Then again, maybe I'm just being too lenient and haven't looked at enough of those slabs. -- Mike

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01-08-2009, 03:23 PM

Posted By: Scott B. I found this link in t206Museum regarding doyle NY nat'l. Interesting article. <a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_3.html" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_3.html>" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_3.html></a></a>

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01-08-2009, 03:27 PM

Posted By: jdrum"Polor" is an undiscovered (until now)variation of the Polar Bear back. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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01-08-2009, 03:29 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedCOREY This story is starting to sound like the sleazy politicians, who have screwed up our economy. To say that a new "VARIATION" in the "Nat'l" lettering has been discovered to justify why this card was graded is sheer "B-S" ! ! When already, the POLAR BEAR back betrays that this card is an outrageous "FAKE" ! ! ! ! Come on guys.....a MAGIE error only exists with a Piedmont 150 back...... and, a JOE DOYLE error only exists with a Piedmont 350 back. TED Z

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01-08-2009, 03:30 PM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanMike, this card is the rare "Polor" Bear back. This is almost as rare as the Peedmont and Sweaty Corporal backs. Rick

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01-08-2009, 03:50 PM

Posted By: JimBThey need Barry to do some editing over there at T206 Museum. JimB

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01-08-2009, 03:55 PM

Posted By: barry arnoldOh,my... My jaw continues to drop in disbelief and,sadly, disgust. Even without my glasses, I know better than to let this one pass. barry

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01-08-2009, 03:56 PM

Posted By: Steve Murray"To say that a new "VARIATION" in the "Nat'l" lettering has been discovered to justify why this card was graded is sheer "B-S" ! !" Presume everyone knows that this alternative was presented "tounge in cheek" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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01-08-2009, 04:04 PM

Posted By: Briannon-official word from PSA regarding this card... "labeling error"

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01-08-2009, 04:07 PM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieThanks for the SCANS guys, especially the close ups! Marty

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01-08-2009, 04:13 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldIt's ok... they only made one more little mistake. Let us be tolerant. Leon, a Brinks truck full of vouchers, Jim VB, wonderful analysis!!! From a legal standpoint, I can envision PSA only sending stuff via UPS or FedEx, that way they avoid mail fraud issues.

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01-08-2009, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Sort of like Christmas in January for you, huh, Frank?

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01-08-2009, 05:31 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeAs Jim said in the other post, go with grading, you know the card is legit and unaltered that way. PRICELESS

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01-08-2009, 05:42 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeYes there are legit Doyle's Bill Huggins found one in a large buy and Larry Fritsch acquired 2 or 3 in the 1970s, 80s. Charlie Conlins is as real as it gets as I had that one in my hand years ago and is now in the REA auction. PSA and ORLANDO are a JOKE!

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01-08-2009, 06:22 PM

Posted By: MikeUThe interesting part is the thousands of dollars worth of self published books they have celebrating a fraudlent card. Do you toss the books or hope that only 1% of the hobby will know and understand and steam ahead with distribution with SMR renewals?

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01-08-2009, 06:30 PM

Posted By: Eric BIt has to be real. According to the article, it was originally graded a "5". then it got a "6" on a resubmit. So it passed by twice!

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01-08-2009, 06:32 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeWell put Eric, how could they have missed twice? and how can the same card be a different grade each time? Nevermind, I think I get it.

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01-08-2009, 06:49 PM

Posted By: judson hamlinEvery time I think "Gee, I should spend some of my hobby budget on getting my cards graded" instead of trusting my own judgment as far as condition and authenticity of raw cards, something like this comes along and reaffirms my faith in the whole grading scheme. Yup, those graders really have it all over me. Stop me if my sarcasm is dripping on anyone's keyboard

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01-08-2009, 07:14 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedMan....I see Dan McKee is over this forum tonite. Dan this phony card has you really excited. I guess I should be excited, too. Two months ago I posted about some fake Joe Doyle's that were graded and the usual skeptics pounced on me. This one with the Polar Bear back was one of the graded fakes I noted. Oh well, I guess I should have the last laugh....but, this is actually a sad situation for our hobby.

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01-08-2009, 09:09 PM

Posted By: Rawn HillThen how about a NET54 grading company? Rawn

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01-09-2009, 08:03 AM

Posted By: boxingcardman"OY! PSA! T206 DOYLE! OY!" Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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01-09-2009, 08:07 AM

Posted By: AnonymousI AGREE WITH TED, BAD, BAD FOR THE HOBBY. BUT I HOPE YOU ALL SEE WHAT MONEY CAN DO TO A GOOD THING. I SAID THAT BECAUSE I REMEMBER WELL GOING TO OUR LOCAL 5 AND 10 CENT STORE TO BUY MY CARDS, NOW A KID HAS TO BE WELL OFF TO BUY A PACK!! SHAME, SHAME, SHAME.

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01-09-2009, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Jerry Spillman <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1231530044.JPG" alt="[linked image]"> PSA 6: NAT'L abbreviation same size lettering and the apostrophe starts higher than the tops of the letters. SGC 50: Large 'N' - remaining letters smaller with the top of the apostrophe even with the tops of the letters. >>>>>> I've been at the FUN convention in Orlando. Very well attended. About 800 dealer tables. Heritage Auctions have their auctions running in series daily.

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01-09-2009, 11:45 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.Good work, Jerry. Game. Set. Match.

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01-09-2009, 11:51 AM

Posted By: Justin Brooksis it me, or does the WHOLE typing look off.... Even the DOYLE font looks slightly different....differnt form, spread... Could it have been a whole different machine executing the type?

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01-09-2009, 12:03 PM

Posted By: Anthony S.That's just it, Justin. A whole different machine/type setter/what have you, about 95 years later.

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01-09-2009, 12:56 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldSo let us count the PSA mistakes on this one... 1- it is a Polar Bear back, not Polor Bear. 2- The card was not issued with a Polar Bear back, it is fake. 3- Joe Doyle is on the fake card, not Larry Doyle. What else??

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01-09-2009, 01:44 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedYou hit the "trifecta" with your succinct summary. And, you will appreciate this........ I just got in from the cold, and I'm sitting here sipping some good ole Kentucky Bourbon, while reading this thread. I hate to admit it....as sad as this particular situation is....but, as I read this thread, I have several <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> regarding this entire matter. Just another day and another Graded fiasco. This Nov. I posted of the graded Joe Doyle fakes....including this Polar Bear one. Here are the links to those posts...... <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1226425634/last-1226504252/T206+Joe+Doyle+N.+Y.+Natl" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1226425634/last-1226504252/T206+Joe+Doyle+N.+Y.+Natl</a> <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1226433875/last-1226504252/T206+Joe+Doyle+N.+Y.+Natl" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1226433875/last-1226504252/T206+Joe+Doyle+N.+Y.+Natl</a> TED Z

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01-09-2009, 01:46 PM

Posted By: barrysloateKentucky Bourbon...no Metaxa?

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01-09-2009, 01:50 PM

Posted By: T206Collector<<the WHOLE typing look off>> Yes. I think that was mentioned above someplace, but it is pretty clear that the counterfeiter decided to erase the entire bottom and retype it as opposed to adding the lettering "Nat'l" -- obviously it is easier to pick up two different fonts with them side-by-side. Rewriting the whole thing over means you'd have to either eye-ball it, or lay it next to another authentic card. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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01-09-2009, 01:52 PM

Posted By: Brian "sipping some good ole Kentucky Bourbon" Which bourbon? A few of my current favorites -- Elmer T. Lee, Four Roses, and Wild Turkey Rare Bread

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01-09-2009, 02:06 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucierbut it is pretty clear that the counterfeiter decided to erase the entire bottom and retype it as opposed to adding the lettering "Nat'l" -- obviously it is easier to pick up two different fonts with them side-by-side. Rewriting the whole thing over means you'd have to either eye-ball it, or lay it next to another authentic card. I didn't want to say anything, but you're dead on. Exactamundo!!!! From a card doctor's perspective, I consider it to be somewhat of a sloppy job as well. It could have been done much better, which would have been worse for the hobby. That is a tough alteration to accomplish. Kevin Saucier ------------------------------ <a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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01-09-2009, 03:17 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedI am "sipping some good ole Kentucky Bourbon"...... Why of course, what would a grandfather of 3 grandchildren drink,but....OLD GRAND-DAD. Regards, TED Z

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01-09-2009, 03:30 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldBrown wine.... from the corn grape. When I partake of bourbon, my preference leans toward Maker's Mark. But I just sip it in tiny bits. Kick that cold, Ted. Orange juice helps, too!!

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01-09-2009, 05:50 PM

Posted By: CoreyRSh.anusIf the entire player/team lettering on the bottom of the card is erased, can that erasure be detected? I ask because it occurs to me that if it cannot, then what's to prevent a skilled crook from erasing a "Magee, Phila. Nat'l" and replacing it with a "Magie, Phila. Nat'l"?

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01-09-2009, 05:55 PM

Posted By: PatHe introduced me to ouzo.........things have never been the same <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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01-09-2009, 05:58 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCdid somebody say Bourbon? my favs: 1. Pappy Van Winkle (20 year) 2. Woodford Reserve 3. Basil Hayden

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01-09-2009, 05:59 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHow have you been ? And, how is your Dad ? Email me....and, we'll get caught up on every thing. TED Z

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01-09-2009, 06:46 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucierthen what's to prevent a skilled crook from erasing a "Magee, Phila. Nat'l" and replacing it with a "Magie, Phila. Nat'l"? Nothing but the skill. Some time (maybe a year or two) ago, I mentioned that it's the alterations you haven't seen that would shock you. Unfortunately, this is one. Kevin Saucier ------------------------------ <a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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01-10-2009, 12:58 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedWhy erase "Magie, Phila. Nat'l", when all you need to erase is the 1st "e" in Magee ? And, of course this has been done. However, I have yet to see one of these Graded. Of the Magee's >> Magie's....that I have seen, most have been modified by scammer's smart enough to have selected a Magee with a Piedmont 150 back. And then, there are some uninformed jokers who have modified Magee cards with other backs. These you can instantly dismiss. But then, some of the fake Magie cards with the Piedmont 150 backs have been modified quite professionally, and must be ex- amined under magnification to detect that they are fakes. TED Z

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01-10-2009, 03:49 AM

Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus"Why erase "Magie, Phila. Nat'l", when all you need to erase is the 1st "e" in Magee ? " To answer your question, I think T206Collector says it very well -- "....but it is pretty clear that the counterfeiter decided to erase the entire bottom and retype it as opposed to adding the lettering "Nat'l" -- obviously it is easier to pick up two different fonts with them side-by-side. Rewriting the whole thing over means you'd have to either eye-ball it, or lay it next to another authentic card." As a practical matter, IF you had a forger that really was expert at what he does (as well as knows the correct back to use), it would seem that to the UNAIDED eye, it will not be possible to distinguish a fake Magie or Doyle Nat'l from a real one. Presumably examination of the dot matrix pattern under high magnification would reveal the fake, but do grading companies do that type of analysis? The other way -- chemical analysis of the inks comprising the lettering -- I am certain they do not do. So short of looking at it the old fashioned way -- the card's pedigree -- I'd be very leery of buying a Magie or a Doyle Nat'l.

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01-10-2009, 04:05 AM

Posted By: barrysloateCorey- Paper conservators could examine a card microscopically, since they are typically very thorough and spend a lot of time with material submitted to them. But I don't think grading companies have that luxury of time; in a sense they are grading factories with deadlines to make. They really should spend a lot of time examining cards that are either very valuable, or ones that have a history of being altered, but I'm not sure that they do.

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01-10-2009, 07:09 AM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusBarry raises an important issue -- the failure of a grading company to spend enough time evaluating certain cards. The root of the problem would seem to be the price a grading charges to slab a card. These companies are after all profit-maximizing enterprises that need to be fairly compensated for the services they perform. If I owned a grading company I would regard a price structure that charges more for higher valued and/or conditioned cards (that therefore have an increased risk of alteration) to be a win-win for all involved. To the card owner, he/she would have the satisfaction that (1) the card was evaluated carefully with no time constraints using the proper equipment and (2) the slabbed result would have maximum market value because potential purchasers would have fewer qualms whether the grading company missed something. To the grading company, it would (1) be fairly compensated for the additional time that was required for the examination and cost to acquire the appropriate equipment and (2) substantially lessen the risk of incurring a stain to its reputation caused by a missed alteration and needing to pay out damages to an agggrieved party.

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01-10-2009, 07:25 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWell the grading companies do have a sliding scale, ranging from under $10 to over $200 per card. But I'm not sure if the extra charge is for the quick turnaround (the highest tier is for two-hour service), or because the graders spend much more time with the card. My question is if you submit a five figure card, which will cost whatever the top tier is, will the graders spend a significant amount of time examining it with state of the art technology? You would think so, but I don't know how it works.

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01-10-2009, 07:31 AM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusBarry, I am aware that the grading companies charge more to turnaround a card more quickly. That was not the price structure I was referring to. I'm referring to a price structure that assumes the turnaround time will be identical but charges more for cards that have a higher likelihood of alteration (i.e., more expensive cards and/or higher-conditioned cards).

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01-10-2009, 07:38 AM

Posted By: barrysloateYes, if you pay say $200 to get a card graded, you should get both a quick turnaround time as well as a more detailed examination. I would hope that you would get at least a full two-hour examination for your money. Again, I don't know how much time is spent with each card at any tier.

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01-10-2009, 08:04 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliThis card doesn't need a two-hour examination. All it needs is a ten-second examination. -Al

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01-10-2009, 10:50 AM

Posted By: Mark MacraeIf the entire player/team lettering on the bottom of the card is erased, can that erasure be detected? I ask because it occurs to me that if it cannot, then what's to prevent a skilled crook from erasing a "Magee, Phila. Nat'l" and replacing it with a "Magie, Phila. Nat'l"? Corey, Although the question was directed at someone more familiar with a wide range of alterations, I can POSITIVELY state that more than one Magie variation has been altered in that fashion, and it wasn't just recently. The problem goes back to 1990. Not to sound like a longtime lurker (who was removed from this board a few years ago), but he was correct in the story that he shared. One of the two 'dealers' involved in this scam is out of the hobby, but was essentially outed. The other dealer from Michigan and the craftsman, also from Michigan haven't surfaced in many years, but are likely still out there. Hobby good-guy Charlie Conlon was very tense during the weekend of the 1990 National in Dallas when this problem was at it's first pinnacle. Two days later, he and three other people familiar with the 'real' Doyle were all satisfied that Conlon's Doyle was real. This was years before 'professional' grading took root, and involved conversations with people who owned, or had owned to that time tens of thousands of T-206 card (In two cases more than 100,000 cards). On a card with significant value, it is up to the individual purchaser to make certain he knows what he is buying before he spends that kind of money. Due diligence. There will never be 100% certainty with ANY card, professionally graded or not.... Mark

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01-10-2009, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthAll cards in all conditions are susceptible to alterations. Altered cards are far from limited to high grade or more expensive cards, as one poster suggests. Assigning a value on a card is up to the submitter. I am not sure PSA takes the time to verify if cards being submitted are valued properly. Further you cannot establish a grading tier based on condition. Since everything is entered into a computer there should be software that alerts a grader to cards submitted which are 1)worth more than the stated grading tier and 2)more prone to alteration. It would be nice to think that the more expensive the card the more it is scrutinized but that is not going to happen in all cases. As to this Doyle card a simple cert check will demonstrate this card was placed in the lowest tier grading service where the most inexperienced graders work. Not making an excuse as PSA, upon the recent review of the card from EX to EXMT, could have taken it off of the market but PSA does not make mistakes, just ask them. Once they have graded a card it is 100% legit otherwise they could not offer the ½ point review where they guarantee a card goes up or it remains unchanged.

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01-10-2009, 11:47 AM

Posted By: jdrumhave a hard time convincing me that the grading companies spend any more time on a card based upon the tier or value. I have always thought the "tier based on value" was the grading companies way of participating in the secondary value of the card.

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01-10-2009, 11:59 AM

Posted By: barrysloateGreg- what you said is very interesting, and I never considered it. You're saying a forger could deliberately undervalue an altered card on the submission form, thus directing it to an inexperienced grader. Boy, it's tough to think of every trick.

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01-10-2009, 12:07 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldIf you pay $200 to get a card graded, then you have too much money and insufficient appreciation for money.

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01-10-2009, 01:09 PM

Posted By: JimB"If you pay $200 to get a card graded, then you have too much money and insufficient appreciation for money." Frank, That statement is simply naive. You don't have to like grading, but it is difficult to deny that a $200 grading fee can more that pay for itself when a card sells for tens of thousands of dollars more graded than it would have raw. JimB

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01-10-2009, 01:21 PM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusAnd I always thought the rationale behind grading was to have a competent company opine as to the card's condition and authenticity. Now based on what's been said it would seem that at least in regard to PSA (anybody know how SGC works), the reliability behind the slab depends on the tier the card was graded in. And on the lowest tier sit graders who it seems are not qualified to make judgments about certain kinds of alterations. I suppose its just a matter of time before we start to see auction houses exploiting this situation by touting how the grade PSA assigned one of its offerings should be taken more seriously because it was evaluated in the highest grading tier.