I've Completed the 1887 N172 Detroit Team Set !! [Archive]

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12-26-2008, 07:59 AM

Posted By: Joe_G.As alluded to in the Looking back -Five most important acquisitions - 2008 thread, I completed a major milestone in 2008 by acquiring the twenty-eighth and final Detroit Old Judge pose issued in 1887, the year Detroit won the Championship. For me, the journey began in 1989 when I won my first Detroit Old Judge in a Lew Lipset auction (manager Bill Watkins). At that time, my goal was to simply acquire a single copy of each player but that evolved to all poses when I returned to collecting in 2003. Many Old Judge collectors know that the bulk of the 1887 issue fall under the long or leading zero numbered cards which include all eight National League teams and Brooklyn (NY Mets & St. Louis Browns cards fall under the Script and Short Numbered series). Detroit was issued twenty-eight sequentially numbered cards in 1887 (#0481 0508). Without further ado, the complete 1887 Old Judge Detroit team set (at a download-friendly ~50 kb/card): <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6882.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6883.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6884.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6885.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6886.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6887.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6888.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6889.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6890.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6891.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6892.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6893.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6894.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6895.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6896.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6897.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6898.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6899.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6900.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6901.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6902.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6903.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6904.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6905.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6906.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6907.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6908.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/cards/um6909.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> The cards can also be viewed here => <a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.aspx?cat=6&set=33" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.aspx?cat=6&set=33</a> Multiple upgrades have allowed me to arrive at an average grade of 44. Duplicates of all poses for Wiedman, Twitchell, Richardson and others have passed through my collection. I dont get too caught up in technical grade as I place most importance on image quality, but wouldnt mind eventually hitting an average grade of 50. The adventure has been far from a one-stop shop and I would like to thank the following individuals who have helped me over the years (listing only those whose cards reside in current collection). Some such as Dave Levin were able to locate more than one card for me from his Oregon and Indy finds. Others were able to funnel cards my way from the Richard Egan collection etc. - John Billingsley - John Cherpock - Bill Cornell - Tim Divodik - Rob Forgue - Bruce Kasarda - Lew Lipset - Dave Levin - Leon Luckey - Joe Maples - Mastro - Jay Miller - Robert Petrucelli - S.V. Rice - Bob Richardson - Alan Sassoon - Barry Sloate - James Stewart - Rhys Yeakley For those interested, the financial break-down follows but keep in mind Im a collector, not an investor. Individual card cost ranges from $16 to $2000 with a total investment just shy of $18k (less than $1k / year collected, although the entire subset could have been collected over the last five years through aggressive buying/networking). Substantial cost was incurred by the fact that eleven of the poses are split between HOFers Dan Brouthers, Ned Hanlon, and Sam Thompson. These more expensive cards were purchased more recently (last five years). There are still plenty Detroit Old Judge cards to strive for beyond upgrades. Of the twenty-two different players and manger to collect stats with the team in 1887, only nine would be issued cards in 1887. Several more would be issued cards in 1888 and still more in 1889 (with other teams). In all, twenty of the twenty-two members of the 1887 team would be issued Old Judge cards in one form or another. I am also actively pursuing all these poses. Ive started a second entry on SGCs website to track my favorite Old Judge cards of each player together with Gypsy Queen and Cabinet cards. There are still many poses that have eluded me; but such is the world of collecting Old Judges. I love this set, someone should write a book. <a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.aspx?cat=6&set=380" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.aspx?cat=6&set=380</a> (still need to add scans) Best Regards & Happy Holidays, Joe Gonsowski

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12-26-2008, 08:08 AM

Posted By: Jason CarotaAmazing accomplishment, Joe! What a way to enter in to the new year. Thanks for posting the scans, as well!

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12-26-2008, 08:14 AM

Posted By: Steve MurrayTook me a few minites to see the difference in two of the Twitchell cards. One holding a bat and the other a ball. Very neat. That one Brouthers looks like he's playing a flute. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Major kudos for this accomplishment.

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12-26-2008, 08:14 AM

Posted By: joeCongratulations Joe, Great accomplishment. Does this mean I have less competition now, and you will be sending cards my way? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Joe Maples Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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12-26-2008, 08:18 AM

Posted By: JoannOooooh my. GOOD. FOR. YOU!!! Congratulations Joe. Thanks so much for posting all the scans here. They are a sight to see, and also educational for me. I thought that the whole Old Judge series was something of a disorderly affair with its multiple poses and thousands of versions and variations. It all seemed so fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants in terms of how this set was made and issued. Now I see that all of the Detroiters were not only all in sequence, but each player was also within a sub-sequence (except for the final Thompson). I would have thought that the Detroiters and even individual players would have scattered numbers, with the variations added along the way in different print runs. But do the scans above basically mean that the manufacturers (and, presumably, the Old Judge people) had already picked the many different players and poses before they even started printing at at all? How else would each player occupy a sequential set of numbers unto himself? Sorry to be so ignorant, but I never realized that the numbering system was so methodical. What a cool, cool, cool post on so many levels. Both for the awesome accomplishment of it and also for what it lays out and demonstrates so elegantly. Joann

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12-26-2008, 08:23 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJoe- that is stupendous, given how long it took you and how many Hall of Fame poses are in the group. Glad I made the list, and was able to help you in some small way. This is really a great accomplishment.

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12-26-2008, 08:40 AM

Posted By: leonCongratulations!!! Good luck in your future endeavors. Hopefully they won't take quite as long to finish.....but again, as many have pointed out, half the fun is the chase....take care now.

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12-26-2008, 08:57 AM

Posted By: Ken WirtSweet!

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12-26-2008, 09:05 AM

Posted By: Joe D.Awesome! Congratulations and thank you for posting the images.... great cards!

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12-26-2008, 09:08 AM

Posted By: KBRVery impressive. Congratulations.

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12-26-2008, 09:44 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWOW! Great accomplishment. Way to go Joe!

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12-26-2008, 09:58 AM

Posted By: DougGreat looking group of cards, congratulations!!!

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12-26-2008, 10:10 AM

Posted By: JayI had the pleasure of working with Joe (and Richard) on the Old Judge book, and I have to say that the most impressive thing isn't the cards that Joe has accumulated over the years but the vast knowledge of the set that he has acquired. Well done buddy!

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12-26-2008, 10:17 AM

Posted By: Fred CWOw! Nice collection of OJs. Does that mean we may see a Detroit OJ or two go to somewhere else but Michigan in the near future? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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12-26-2008, 10:27 AM

Posted By: Richard Cline - RCCongratulations Joe! - That is quite the accomplishment and I'm sure the chase was fun. Thanks for sharing. RC

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12-26-2008, 10:40 AM

Posted By: J LevineJoe, Congrats!! This is really a large accomplishment!! As a fellow team collector who is searching for Old Judge Phillies, I understand the difficulty in completing a task like this. I love that all the cards have clear pictures. I really do look for that for most of my OJs. Good luck with the rest of your task. Joshua

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12-26-2008, 11:20 AM

Posted By: D. BerginFantastic post! I can't tell you how much more impressive that is to me then a T206 Honus Wagner that somebody was able to shell out the dough for simply because of deep pockets.

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12-26-2008, 11:33 AM

Posted By: RhysCongratulations Joe. I am happy for you and for the great accomplishment of finishing your goal. They are all really beautiful when displayed together as well. Rhys

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12-26-2008, 11:42 AM

Posted By: john/z28jd Amazing collection Joe and thanks for showing it. As Joe knows,I've been collecting just the players from Pittsburgh and I still have to find 3 more players after 5+ years of looking,I couldnt imagine going by pose as well

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12-26-2008, 12:22 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesNot only is the accomplishment a GREAT feat, the quality of them exposed to us are TREMENDOUS ! WHat a really nice group ! I can almost feel the excitement myself !

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12-26-2008, 12:25 PM

Posted By: Phil GarryVery nice, Joe!!! Congrats!!!

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12-26-2008, 12:45 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishQuite the accomplishment-congratulations!

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12-26-2008, 12:46 PM

Posted By: David McDonaldGlorious!! PS. It was a pleasure to meet you at the Chicago National.

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12-26-2008, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Brian Giddy up. Well done.

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12-26-2008, 04:29 PM

Posted By: Fred CJoe, I've looked at this thread about a dozen times today because I really like looking at the cards. Then it finally hit me that you have the cards in the numerical order in which they should be. Just noticing that little bit more really made it sink in what you've completed. AWESOME!!!! Thanks for sharing. I'm going to spend a little time downloading the images. I love this stuff!

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12-26-2008, 04:51 PM

Posted By: JeremyBravo Joe ! Thank you for the insider view of the collection, how you got there, and cost, etc... As someone who is on a parallel mission, I appreciate you sharing, indeed ! ~ Jeremy ~

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12-26-2008, 05:32 PM

Posted By: EricJoe, I was just about to throw this one up on ebay... maybe you would consider it an upgrade? <img src="http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/434/15461183/WEIDMAN_STUMP_7MK.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Eric

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12-26-2008, 05:46 PM

Posted By: moviecardThat's a great accomplishment, Joe! I've been following along with your Old Judge Detroit collecting for a long time and knew that you would make it. Your record keeping is especially impressive, way beyond what I do. Enjoy the cards, you have achieved something very few will ever do.

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12-26-2008, 09:43 PM

Posted By: Joe_G.Thank you everyone, it was my pleasure to share the experience with you. Thanks for the personal emails as well. I will try to get more scans up on my second SGC entry. I would also like to clarify that many other individuals helped me acquire many neat Detroit items over the years. The list above was merely those involved in helping me acquire the twenty-eight pictured 1887 Detroit OJs. On average, these cards really are not that difficult. Then again, difficult is a relative term. Joe Maples - Im sure youve noticed less competition on a lot of the 1887 Detroit cards as of late but well continue to battle on the later issued cards. You have a couple Detroit cards Id like to have including that awesome SGC 84 Hanlon. You are well on your way to completing the 1887 Detroit team yourself. How many do you have left to go? Joann - Thank you. I can understand why Old Judge cards, on the surface, appear so disorderly. A study of the set on a year by year and even team by team basis goes a long way into giving order to the chaos. The Script, Short Numbered, 0 Numbered, 1888 (Fa & Fb), 1889, & 1890 cards could all be considered separate issues/sets. The Old Judge book dedicates a chapter to each year of issue making it far easier to digest. About the numbering scheme, Goodwin & Co. (or the photographic studio hired by Goodwin & Co.) managed a huge inventory of glass plate negatives. The numbering worked well in 1887 although there is some jumping around and missing numbers. By 1888, the re-issued cards together with the new players and many new teams made it a little more difficult to keep order and the numbering scheme was dropped. How has your #0492 Ganzel been treating you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Jay Miller - Thank you very much for the kind words, the pleasure was all mine. I would like to lobby that someone with a couple Old Judges himself <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> try and collect all the 0 Numbered Series cards. Or you could just start with your favorite team, the New York Giants with their 111 poses! Fred Cowles - There are still a couple Detroit collectors trying to fill holes, but Im guessing the prices will be more reasonable. Glad you noticed the numbering scheme. I enjoy placing the cards in the order they were assigned over 120 years ago. These details get lost when studying the set from a price guide or similar list. Joshua, John, and others building a team set - Keep going, the common backgrounds typically found for a team from a given year makes for neat looking subset. Collecting a team across various years also makes for an interesting study of uniforms and the Old Judge set in general. Eric Kramer - Thank you for the offer; you have a real beauty on your hands. Im however quite happy with the image quality on my example and suspect SGC would hold the cards grade down due to the mark. Troy Kirk - Nice to hear from you. (one of the great Detroit collectors) Best Regards, Joe Gonsowski

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12-27-2008, 08:05 AM

Posted By: JayJoe--That sounds like a fun project for a rainy Saturday afternoon.

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12-27-2008, 08:42 AM

Posted By: joeHello Joe and everyone else reading this post. Joe nice collection, I still need 7 cards to complete the 1887 Detroit team set, Twitchell #490, Ganzel #493, Ganzel #494, Rowe #495, Hanlon #501, Brouthers # 504, and Watkins #507. You do a great job collecting and keeping better records than I do. Can't wait to receive the Old Judge book. I also collect the other Detroit cards, I have Campau, Getzein and Goodfellow, there are 8 others I need , Baldwin, Conway, Gilligan, McGlone, Rooks, Scheibeck, Wheelock and Deacon White. Joe Maples Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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12-27-2008, 09:01 PM

Posted By: ChiSoxFanGreat collection Joe. I'm hoping to complete an Indianapolis team set one day. ChiSoxFan

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12-29-2008, 01:43 PM

Posted By: MikeJoe: This is truly a great accomplishment. It also means you have a good job. Keep it up. I am looking forward to the book, any date yet for delivery ? Also if you have any extra Detroit cards as "dupes" please list on BST. I am also looking for Detroit 19th Century cards, like it appears a lot of others are. I think the Detroit Minor Leaguers from the International league are very tough. Have you found this also ?

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12-29-2008, 07:06 PM

Posted By: Scott DangoGreat work completing a 20 year journey! The feeling of accomplishment must be overwhelming! I enter a time warp when looking at such old cards in such wonderful shape! Thanks for sharing!

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12-29-2008, 08:09 PM

Posted By: MikeJoe: I agree on the 22 player total (20 regular season, 1 manager and 1 in the World Series).I've also done extensive research on the Detroit Wolverine team and the 1887 team . Stu Sutcliffe played in the World Series and not the regular season. That was very interesting, but many things were different in the 19th Century. I agree with the cost of collecting Detroit cards because of the Hall of Fame status of Brouthers, Thompson and Hanlon. Hanlon use to be much cheaper until he entered the Hall. When you read about the Detroit team it is hard to believe Charlie Bennett hasn't received more support for Hall of Fame status. Catching in the 19th Century wasn't easy and he was regarded by many as the 2nd best catcher behind Buck Ewing. Bennett Field was named after him.

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12-29-2008, 08:32 PM

Posted By: Joe_G.Thanks again to everyone who has replied. Mike, great to hear from another Detroit collector. Sounds like you've been studying the set as well which is great. I concur that the International Association cards are tougher although somewhat player dependant due to number of poses issued. For example, Rooks & Wheelock with Detroit (one catalogued pose each) are tougher than say Goodfellow and Campau (four & five poses respectively). Now if you are going after all poses, each pose might be about equally challenging. I began collecting the IA cards as well but with less sense of importance. They are neat but only team change cards (none of the players are actually pictured with Detroit). A bit tougher yet are the Detroit cards from 1888 (all Detroit IA cards are 1889). These include Lady Baldwin, Pete Conway, Charlie Getzien, Frank Scheibeck, and Deacon White. These cards seem to carry a slight premium over the others. The last update I received from Richard on the Old Judge book was an expected ship date of January 9th (approximate and subject to change, but drawing very near). Joe Maples, you have an excellent collection of Detroit cards, both 19th and 20th century. Any chance I can talk you into focusing on only the 20th century cards, ala Leon Luckey, and part with your 19th century material? There are 2-3 cards I'd like a chance at including one of the cards I traded to you awhile back. In answer to your question, I do not have any extra Detroit cards at the moment; you pretty much cleaned me out. But if and when I upgrade, I'll have something to offer. Best Regards, Joe Gonsowski

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12-29-2008, 11:49 PM

Posted By: Dave LevinHey Joe, Thats great, you actually finished it! Well, I guess that means you will start something else, or just continue building on it. Glad I could help with some of the cards, it was nice meeting you at the Nationals, and enjoyable dealing with you and learning a little bit about the cards in the process.

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12-30-2008, 04:08 AM

Posted By: Andy CookYour team set is amazing. Seeing these cards makes me more excited to receive my copy of the Old Judge book! Andy

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12-30-2008, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Bruce BabcockNice going, Joe! Great to see. Don't stop now!

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12-31-2008, 02:30 PM

Posted By: MikeUBelated congratulations Joe! Very impressive. What is the cost for a fellow Metro-Detroiter for the book?

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12-31-2008, 03:26 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaMike, if you're asking about the Old Judge book it costs $125 shipped.

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12-31-2008, 07:11 PM

Posted By: Michael SteeleI do not collect 19th Century cards mainly because the Red Sox started in 1901 but I have to say, this post has perked up my interest. Joe G: Fantastic. An awesome accomplishment that I greatly admire. Regards, Michael

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12-31-2008, 07:37 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Mike as a Red Sox fan you could always go for the ever popular,Red Sox players who appeared in the Old Judge set which includes Frank Foreman(1901 sox) Duke Farrell(1903-05) and Deacon Mcguire(1907-08) and even go for Hugh Duffy who managed them for 2 seasons in the 1920's.

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01-01-2009, 09:34 AM

Posted By: tim zwickHi Joe....... Belated congratulations on your accomplishment, I am very jealous and happy for you. Thanks for the sly incognito acknowledgment on my small part in helping you obtain your goal. I believe it is the first time in my life that i wasn't last in an alphabetical list.....Cheers----Tim