Vote!!! [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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11-04-2008, 08:29 AM

Posted By: Todd Schultzfor whomever and whatever you want. I did. It's an especially great day to be an American, so go out and exercise the right people have died to give you. Here in AZ, we have some controversial propositions and contested local races that need attention and the people's voice, and I'm sure the same can be said for all of you. Please, be counted!!!

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11-04-2008, 08:52 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThis morning my wife and I walked to the polls at 6:15 and the line was already around the block. Even at that hour it took us nearly an hour. It's encouraging to see the enthusiasm generated by this election. Hope everybody makes the effort to vote today.

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11-04-2008, 08:59 AM

Posted By: James FeaginIf you choose not to vote, you have forfeited your voice and have no right to complain about any government policies.

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11-04-2008, 09:08 AM

Posted By: leonIt took me literally one minute to walk in and vote this morning. My understanding is that, in our small community, the early voting was horrendous......Everyone should vote.....

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11-04-2008, 09:14 AM

Posted By: NealThe Mrs and I voted and it literally took a whopping 10 minutes from the time we went in and came out! Even got our free small coffee at Starbucks just for voting! The line at Starbucks was much longer!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-04-2008, 09:19 AM

Posted By: Peter ThomasIn line @ 6:15 polls opened @ 7:00 - out by 7:15. My wife was better organized and voted by mail. Sorry pair on the ballot for House could not bring myself to vote for either.

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11-04-2008, 09:22 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaMy excruciatingly long wait in line this morning was approximately 22 seconds. Took me about 2 minutes to fill out the ballot only because I had to fully read the Amendment votes on the ballot...wording is always tricky on those.

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11-04-2008, 09:24 AM

Posted By: CatI voted by mail about two weeks ago. It's a lot easier and the candidates and managers of the proposition campaigns will weed out the mailed in ballots form their lists which means you start to get less crap in your mail box.

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11-04-2008, 09:29 AM

Posted By: barrysloateOne thing that struck me about voting this morning is I have been living in the same neighborhood for 35 years, and I always vote in the same place, yet the antiquated voting machines we used are exactly the same as the ones from the 1970's- and they were old then. With all the technology we have, why do we still vote using these old tin cans? Makes you wonder if all the votes will be accurately counted.

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11-04-2008, 09:31 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.Voted by mail two weeks ago. I still have to vote in Ohio, Missouri, and Florida today though, so it's looking like a long day.

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11-04-2008, 09:42 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaBarry, it's the new voting machines that you have to worry about.

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11-04-2008, 09:43 AM

Posted By: Jim VBBarry, There was a good article about this in USA Today (last week, sometime.) <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-10-28-votingequipment_N.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-10-28-votingequipment_N.htm</a> The use of the old mechanical machines has dropped off dramatically in the last few years, but like everything else, change is expensive and not always well managed. A lot of money has been wasted.

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11-04-2008, 09:45 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldVoted. No line. When I was a kid my Grandfather told me to always vote first thing in the morning, that someone may well die on election day, and if they died before they voted then the candidates depending on that voter would be without the vote. Years later I think what my Grandfather was telling me was that I was always going in too many directions at one time, and I needed to vote early, because if I put it off I'd mess around and not get to the polls by the 6pm closing time. Still, I vote with a smile when I vote in the morning, thinking of my Grandfather's words.

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11-04-2008, 09:45 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI've heard the newer ones have issues, so maybe I should be thankful for the old ones. It's a metal booth with a ratty curtain, looks more like an army blanket, kind of like one Fred Flintstone might use. But if it's secure so be it.

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11-04-2008, 09:46 AM

Posted By: jdrumI would wait 5 hours for those interminable political commercials to go away. Does anyone believe anything that appears in a political TV commercial? Each candidate's summation of the average American voter = Moron, they'll believe anything.

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11-04-2008, 09:46 AM

Posted By: Shawn ChambersWell, here in good ole KY, we have been "blessed" with long lines. My wife and I got in line at 6:40 and finished at 8:15. Still worth every minute! The line when we left was just as long as ever...this should be a fantastic turnout. Shawn

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11-04-2008, 10:08 AM

Posted By: DaveW Here in California the wait to vote was only a few minutes at 8:15am. The workers said that at 7am, the line was out the door - so I'm glad I waited a while. They got rid of the old punch card voting and all of the machines - today we just voted with a pen. Just draw a line between two dots and you're done. - Dave

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11-04-2008, 10:11 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThe headline on Drudge this morning said "professor ousted after tearing down McCain yard sign". I said to myself could it possibly be him....but it wasn't. Web sites say heavy voting almost everywhere in both democratic and republican areas.

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11-04-2008, 10:13 AM

Posted By: jay woltOut here in the sticks of PA, the lines were so long at 9:00, I came back w/ the wife at 11:00 and we still had to wait 45 minutes. Worth it though, we all should have a say in our election.

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11-04-2008, 10:22 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaYour vote is probably going to decide this election Jay. DOWN WITH THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE!!!!!!!1

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11-04-2008, 10:27 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan--I pray that you are right and that Jay's vote does decide it. Jay lives deep in Repub territory Jay--Murtha isn't your congressman is he?

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11-04-2008, 10:35 AM

Posted By: Dave HornishWe both stayed home today, though not due to Election Day and went to vote at Noon at the local elementary school (we live on Long Island) We waited 2 minutes, not bad for only one machine (we used to have 2) but I noted I was voter #305 which is more than we usually have for an entire day and early evening on Election Day. We must have just hit a lull. By all media accounts, turnout is extremely heavy.

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11-04-2008, 11:13 AM

Posted By: S GrossLess than 5 min. in Savannah. Gas $2.26 at El Cheapo. ........... and Bob Barr is one vote closer to the White House.

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11-04-2008, 11:19 AM

Posted By: BrockYou guys do know that are votes dont matter. We really dont chose who is president or not. The elected representatives that make up the electoral college are the ones who chose the president and also the vice.

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11-04-2008, 11:34 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonVery heavy turnout in my Manhattan district (very heavily Democratic <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ). Took me 30 minutes, the lines were around the block at the public school where I vote and I have never seen lines even go into the street. Glad to see that this thread has remained civilized, unlike the prior political thread which was well represented by left, center, right and NEANDERTHAL. == I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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11-04-2008, 11:40 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJust took me 2 mins on the Upper East side -- of course going at 2 pm helped.

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11-04-2008, 11:41 AM

Posted By: leonYou must have watched GMA this morning. They said 10am and 2pm was best...... Richard S- I agree......I am pleasantly surprised this thread has stayed civil this long. I am not counting it out though <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.....

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11-04-2008, 11:54 AM

Posted By: Joe D.is there an election today? for what?

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11-04-2008, 12:05 PM

Posted By: Fred YHere in RI I went in a little after noon at the grade school building & there was only 1 other person voting at the time! Connected my arrows w/ the black marker, slid the ballot into the counting machine & was on my way in about 5 mins! Took me longer than that to get a small coffee at the Dunkin' Donut drivethru!

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11-04-2008, 12:07 PM

Posted By: jay woltDan - Cool! I like the power!!! Jim - No our Congressman running is Phill Avillo (Dem) & Todd Platts (Rep)

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11-04-2008, 12:12 PM

Posted By: DougI voted yesterday morning in an attempt to beat the lines and still had to wait an hour. Strangely enough everyone I've talked to that voted today didn't have to wait at all. Oh well, I'm just glad to be able to do it!

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11-04-2008, 12:12 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJoe- the election is actually tomorrow. Today is just to register.

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11-04-2008, 12:30 PM

Posted By: Richard DwyerCalifornia has the Gay Marriage proposition. If you vote no, Bubba and all his boyfriends in prison can get married. Vote YES to end gay marriage!

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11-04-2008, 12:39 PM

Posted By: Joe D.barry - touché !

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11-04-2008, 12:48 PM

Posted By: MattNo lines here in the East Cleveland suburbs this afternoon.

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11-04-2008, 12:48 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliNice. -Al

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11-04-2008, 01:09 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJoe- how do you get the accent mark on the "e" of touche?

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11-04-2008, 01:26 PM

Posted By: Bob PomillaVoted mid afternoon here on the east side of Manhattan and it took maybe ten minutes, all told. Most of that time was spent waiting for one dull wit, who was apparently taken aback that he couldn't find Calvin Coolidge on the ballot. The election workers said they were swamped in the AM however - mostly young people - that Bob Barr sure can bring out the vote.

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11-04-2008, 01:53 PM

Posted By: Joe D."Joe- how do you get the accent mark on the "e" of touche?" î doñt séè whåt marks yoü are talking about ™ ® ©

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11-04-2008, 01:54 PM

Posted By: Samuel<a href="http://www.mesweet.net/altkeysymbols.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.mesweet.net/altkeysymbols.html</a>

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11-04-2008, 02:13 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThat looks too complicated for me, but thanks.

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11-04-2008, 02:29 PM

Posted By: Cat"That looks too complicated for me, but thanks." Barry: That's why they have those voting machines that are from the 70s in your neighborhood. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-04-2008, 02:57 PM

Posted By: barrysloateCat- I would say touche but I am unable to spell it! <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-04-2008, 04:01 PM

Posted By: RichieTook a whooping 10 mins in Queens NY today.

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11-04-2008, 04:04 PM

Posted By: peter ullmanIn St Paul, MN...It took me 10 minutes this morning at 9:30 am, only becauase I sat down with a clipboard and relaxed while my girlfriend had to register. IT was an ideal time to vote!

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11-04-2008, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Joe D.did anyone else just see that 'hologram' reporter on CNN? that was incredible. very cool stuff.

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11-04-2008, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Michael SteeleBloomington, MN today around 2:30pm. 10 minutes. Heard it was busier in the AM.

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11-04-2008, 04:31 PM

Posted By: TimI had to wait in line for a little over an hour in the AM. My wife went in the afternoon and it took about 2 minutes.

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11-04-2008, 05:07 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanWhatever the outcome, the involvement of so many new voters and young voters is great. I went to the poll at 7:00 when it opened and it was about 25 minutes in line. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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11-04-2008, 05:09 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCan I just get the damn addresses for which of you bums I have to send checks to? <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-04-2008, 05:10 PM

Posted By: Joe D.Jeff.... I am sending you my address now. start sending checks.

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11-04-2008, 06:05 PM

Posted By: Ken McMillanvoted early by mail here in Arizona. nice to avoid the lines. By the way, where in Arizona do you live Todd? we had some interesting propositions on the ballot in Tucson. Kmac

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11-04-2008, 06:31 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonTHANK YOU all Ohio voters,,,, bye, bye McCain and the hockey mom. == I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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11-04-2008, 06:33 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Definition of irony: Glad to see that this thread has remained civilized, You stay classy, Richard.

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11-04-2008, 06:42 PM

Posted By: David AtkatzCan you say "landslide"?

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11-04-2008, 06:44 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonJeff, Can I just pick a card instead?

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11-04-2008, 06:59 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzHi Ken, I live in central Phoenix, about 5-6 miles from downtown. I walked right up to the tables at 9:15 this morning, absolutely no waiting. The one proposition that appears every general election and fails every time is the pay raise for the state legislators. I vote for it every time--public service and duty aside, $24K is way too little to attract anywhere near the best and brightest. Still, it and I get shot down everytime. Oh well, of all the things I was pulling for on this ballot, that's certainly one "loss" I can stand.

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11-04-2008, 07:29 PM

Posted By: Fred CAnybody got an Obama rookie card?

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11-04-2008, 07:46 PM

Posted By: Jim VB<<Can I just get the damn addresses for which of you bums I have to send checks to? >> Sorry Jeff. Just like Guido the killer pimp, we deal in cash only. No checks. No bonds.

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11-04-2008, 07:49 PM

Posted By: Jim VBRob D, "You stay classy, Richard." Did he seem just a touch intolerant to you too? Especially for a California type guy.

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11-04-2008, 07:56 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonCalifornia ?????????? == I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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11-04-2008, 08:10 PM

Posted By: Bob PomillaWell, Rich, I do recall you liking the Beach Boys. <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-04-2008, 08:17 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonBobby, that would not be possible for you to recall because I never liked the Beach Boys. I have a large collection of music including my teen age vinyl records, and there is not one Beach Boys piece among them <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">. == I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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11-04-2008, 09:31 PM

Posted By: Ken McMillanHi Todd, Not surprised that the pay increase failed. Marana where I live had a few measures on the ballot but pretty boring. Looks like people mainly voted for the status quo. Was actually up your direction last Wednesday for the national hardball league world series. Some fantasy camp buddies were playing at Tempe Diablo. Ken

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11-04-2008, 09:45 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThis thread needs more cowbell <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/V6Hryc5t2wQ"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V6Hryc5t2wQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>

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11-04-2008, 11:04 PM

Posted By: JimBRichard Dwyer said, "California has the Gay Marriage proposition. If you vote no, Bubba and all his boyfriends in prison can get married. Vote YES to end gay marriage!" What's the matter Richard? Is your boyfriend pressuring you and you need an excuse? Just tell him you are not ready for that kind of commitment. JimB

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11-05-2008, 03:32 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI hope everyone appreciates the significance of Obama's landslide victory. That our country can overcome racial barriers and elect an African American president is historic. Hopefully, the old poitics are dead and a new era is upon us. I wish president-elect Obama the best of luck in what will prove to be very difficult times ahead.

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11-05-2008, 03:52 AM

Posted By: BrockHigher taxes for all!

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11-05-2008, 04:02 AM

Posted By: SteveBarry, It's a great time and we were part of it. I am really joyfully shocked by Florida. Let's hope this event will depolarize the color attitude and make this country strong. Richard, What an insensitive and immature comment. Wish I'd seen it sooner. Are you nine years old? Perhaps the hateful, ignorant dinosaurs will have no choice but to open their minds in this new climate.

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11-05-2008, 04:10 AM

Posted By: Dave F Yeah, whats done is done. It will be interesting though to see how the tax increases only for the wealthy go over. Considering to start with the wealthy was 250k+ and it was lowered and lowered and lowered until this last time that Biden said the wealthy was 100k+. The health plan should go over well too with universal care. Now every Joe Blow will be able to go to the ER for a jammed finger...and it should only take six months to be able to get in and seen by a doctor for something actually important. But I don't blame Barack Obama. He played it perfectly. McCain lost not because of anything other than the economy and Obama's "we don't need four more years of Bush"...I'm still not sure how McCain is Bush. Bush was so horrible that in fact no Republican could have overcome his tenor. But what's done is done. I'll fall in line and hope Obama isn't Jimmy Carter who only got in because of how bad tricky Dick screwed things up before him.

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11-05-2008, 04:24 AM

Posted By: JoannI'm just relieved. Not as elated or happy as I thought I'd be - just simply relieved. The fact that the vote went so overwhelmingly Obama is ... overwhelming. It was too bad McCain ran such a poor campaign. I've always regarded him very highly, but it seemed like he was so erratic - going for the gimic plays all the time instead of patiently grinding out yards with a consistent message. I think Dave hit it right on the head. Bush was so damn bad I don't think there was anyone at all that was going to win this race as a Republican. Maybe that's why McCain seemed so desperate. Too bad his time came in the wake of such a Republican disaster. And McCain's concession speech was such a good start for an Obama administration. How classy. Where was this guy on the campaign trail? Wow. But it truly gave a sense of optimism and relief, and I have to believe that Obama was extremely grateful for McCain's grace at that moment. Joann

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11-05-2008, 04:38 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMcCain is a decent man and a true American hero. What he endured for five years in Vietnam I can't even imagine. But he ran a ghastly campaign, always looked edgy and ill at ease, and had the bad luck of being in the same party as George Bush. But most significantly his choice of a running mate was an abomination. I feel bad for Sarah Palin, as she took a lot of abuse the past few months. But McCain showed terrible judgment by choosing her, and he sunk quickly after that. Obama's presidency will be far from perfect, and not everyone will like his policies. But I suggest for the next twenty-four hours to please recognize that last night we reached a landmark moment in American history. Then tomorrow we can all go back to partisan fighting.

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11-05-2008, 04:50 AM

Posted By: Dave F Barry- I'm not trying to be a smart ***, but why should it be seen as a landmark in American history. I guess thats what bothers me. I'm 32 years old...I'm not from the old generation and haven't been witness to some of the things that even you at your age would have seen in the 50's, 60's. (not that your old <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif"> ) But what bothers me is I really don't know to this day what Obama is all about. I haven't seen any concrete platform he stands on...he has flip-flopped on many issues (as I guess many politicians do). I agree Sarah Palin was not a good choice for VP, she lacks experience, but so does Obama. The thing he was better at....is talking. Talking gets you so far. It would have been refreshing if Obama's short track record in the Senate would have been more on the lines of thinking for himself instead of voting with his party on every issue. We honestly should be past the stage of having to say how wonderful it is an African-American man is President. Being 32 I don't see the big issue there, I really don't. From my perspective he ran a blanket campaign and it was McCain's fault for not pushing issues moreso in the debates than he did. There were many subjects had McCain just pushed issues that Obama would have looked a little foolish trying to get out of. This campaign shouldn't have had anything to do with race. It really shouldn't. Every interview I've seen on TV, with blacks and whites are how wonderful it is to have this man in office. I just hope all those people that voted for him saw something more in the glass half full than what I did other than voting for him based on color and what a "landmark in American history" this would be.

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11-05-2008, 04:56 AM

Posted By: D. C. MarkelI never thought this day would happen. I won't have to work on puttin' gas in my car. I won't have to work at payin' my mortgage. You know. If I help him, he's gonna help me. (edited for spelling)

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11-05-2008, 04:59 AM

Posted By: Dave F Dan- I know your kind of being a smart-alec there...but what is truly sad is for those that don't know that was really said by one voter. She honestly thinks Obama will be the end all to all and she won't have to worry about paying for gas or her mortgage. It's really dissapointing just how uneducated MANY of the voters are/were.

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11-05-2008, 05:12 AM

Posted By: barrysloateDave- I understand you do not support Obama's policies, and that's fine. And I wish I could say we should all be color blind and not care what color skin our president has. But it's just not the case. This country has a terrible history when it comes to race relations. I am old enough to remember the 1960's and the racial tensions, the rioting, the burning of cities, and it was frightening. So for me this is a very special moment in our history. And I realize not everybody may agree.

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11-05-2008, 05:18 AM

Posted By: Dave F Barry- Your right everyone can't agree. My point being as long as you back the man for his track record and feel his direction was truly laid out for everyone to see then I have no problem at all if thats the reason folks voted for him. I'm not from Nova Scotia...so he is going to be my president and if he does bomb than I'll have a chance in four more years to vote for someone else. That's the wonderful thing about this country.

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11-05-2008, 05:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateEven Obama's supporters know it won't be easy, and I can assure you he will make mistakes. And I plan to be around to see how it all unfolds.

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11-05-2008, 05:28 AM

Posted By: Tony AndreaYou know, iv'e read through this post and listened to all views carefully. To me though the most accurate statement so far has come from Dave. He hit it right on the head when he stated: >>>> " It's really disappointing just how uneducated MANY of the voters are/were." For me this stuck out like a soar thumb more so than iv'e ever witnessed in the past. To see so many voters involved in this race was truly great, but they weren't educated on the issues as they should have been. They were simply followers which is not what an election is supposed to represent. Tony A.

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11-05-2008, 05:30 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittthat that $100K we're down to on raising taxes now will be pushed lower. Hopefully the mistakes he makes on the job while trying to learn won't be as big as some Bush made. I have my doubts though. While he's a great speaker, hopefully there's some substance there too. 76 days from now, we'll all find out. There won't be any 'present' votes to do from the oval office. We'd all better hope he's successful. Tony.......I agree........I love the people interviewed about Obama's running mate Palin who said that she'd do a great job. We have a whole lot of new voters this time. Unfortunately, a whole lot of them have no idea what's going on. But I'm not sure that that's not unlike every election.

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11-05-2008, 05:45 AM

Posted By: Tony AndreaHi Tom - I agree, you see many uneducated voters every election, but there seemed to be so many more young voters this time around that didn't have a clue on the issues. I don't think many of them ever read a paper or even watch the news. Tony A.

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11-05-2008, 05:52 AM

Posted By: Jim VBDave, Tom, et al, You guys have either been drinking the red Kool-aid or watching too much FOX News. Obama has NEVER changed the levels of his tax plan. He has always said taxes will go up (from 36% to 39%, back to what they were under Reagan) on family incomes over $250,000 (individuals over $200,000). He has always said that taxes will go down for families under $200,000. Incomes between the two levels would stay about the same. Last week, at one campaign stop, Biden talked about the tax relief a family making $150,000 would get. That number was an example. It was chosen because it was deemed to be a representative number for that days crowd (I think he was in Northern Virginia at the time, but I could be mistaken.) The McCain campaign jumped all over that and called it a "change." It wasn't. It was an example. That said, I agree with Tom that the number may have to change to straighten out the fiscal mess our country is in. The problem is that we (the USA) have already spent the money (our money, our kids money, and our grandkids money.) We all sat by far too quietly and let spending go unchecked for the last 8 years. Someday, you have to pay the piper. But right now, the proposal is that if you make $300,000 a year (top 3-4% nationwide) you would pay an extra 3% on the income over $250,000. I don't think that $1500 will break any of those earners.

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11-05-2008, 05:56 AM

Posted By: leonI didn't vote Obama but I am ok with the choice made. Americans made it and we will move forward. Bush has not done a good job as president though I still think his heart is in the right place. This was a perfect storm for Obama to win. If McCain would have won it would have taken a miracle. There was just too much stacked against him, including his VP nominee. What I found very telling was this fact. Blacks that voted for Obama - 40% Blacks that voted for McCain- 01% My guess is that this statistic will be overlooked. Now, if I can come up with a way to make so little I don't pay any tax then I can actually get a refund and free healthcare. I need to contempelate that... I do hope Obama does good and we definitely are in need of change...

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11-05-2008, 06:09 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonLeon - if you wish to make so little that you won't pay taxes,, how would you buy your baseball cards?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif"><img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">. == I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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11-05-2008, 06:14 AM

Posted By: leonI will buy them with the tax refund check and money I save on health care...Haven't you seen all of the hoopalah? I do think Obama is a good guy but doesn't understand that when he taxes those that have worked hard to make a good living, and many are employers, then they won't be supplying as many jobs for the people he is trying to help.

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11-05-2008, 06:20 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzCome on, Leon. That extra 3% will, for most who are hit by it, work out to be less than you spend on cards each year. That's hardly going to be the difference between expanding, or not expanding, their businesses.

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11-05-2008, 06:28 AM

Posted By: leonIt's the theory that bothers me. If you won't help yourself don't worry...the government will. Socialism here we come....It's really a fundamental difference and no matter what you and I debate you will believe the way you do and I will believe the way I do. As I have said....I think Obama is a good, inexperienced, politician. He is a very good orator. One other thing too; I have never heard him say "I made a mistake". That is kind of bothersome. Hey, he can't do much worse than we have had...so we have that going for us!!

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11-05-2008, 06:35 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzSo... A 36% tax bracket is Socialism. But a 33% tax bracket is good, old-fashioned, American democracy.

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11-05-2008, 06:37 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWhat? Not enough cowbell in here yet? <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lo6HONeuT-M"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lo6HONeuT-M"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>

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11-05-2008, 06:45 AM

Posted By: Dave F David- It's one thing for my tax money to go to education, social security, national defense, road improvements, etc. It's the "social services" side of it I don't think needs to be beefed up more. With the taxes we pay now why is that not enough for food stamps and public housing? I guess its ok with you. For me I was taught to stand on my own two feet. When I go into downtown Atlanta to see a ballgame and I see plenty of the locals on the side of the street with a fifth of liquor I have to shake my head. At some point adults should have to take care of themselves...they shouldn't need even more of my money that I would rather put in something so it can mature and hand down to my own children. Yes, I'm a jerk I guess. I'd rather hand my money down to my own children. Even that extra 3%. Most, not all of the folks needing federal assitance could better themselves. They choose not to, and as long as the government wants to play mommy/daddy they won't have to.

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11-05-2008, 06:50 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzAnd you know for a fact that that extra 3% is going into food stamps? Perhaps it will pay down the debt incurred by fighting a war with borrowed money. Or maybe it will go towards the $750B bailout that now seems to be providing nice Christmas bonuses for those poor souls who will be hit by the tax increase.

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11-05-2008, 06:53 AM

Posted By: Dave F No, I don't know for a fact. I'm taking Obama at his word when he says he wants to hit with tax increases people above such and such and redistribute it to the underprivilaged to help "boost" the economy.

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11-05-2008, 06:53 AM

Posted By: gotwinsLeon, Obama won pretty much every major demographic across the board--including white men with a college education or higher. He won every educational level, all age groups except 65 and older, and by some exit polls, won even those who make $200K or more. He would have won even if he only garnered the same % of blacks that Kerry received in 2004. Tom, your taxes will go up, that is true. Obama understands that the fragility of the economy right now won't allow for much in the way of immediate tax increases, and he will raise taxes only for those making $250K or more. Mark my words, that's where the line will be drawn in 2009. At the end of 2010--halfway through Obama's term, the Bush tax cuts will expire and will not be renewed. Taxes will then return to what they were under Clinton--Obama has said this repeatedly. Although he won't technically be raising taxes, Obama will no doubt get the blame for them going up because of his refusal to extend the cuts. He has been clear on these points. McCain, by contrast, kept telling people what they wanted to hear, never mind the folly of his words. He promised to get us back on track by eliminating pork--well, if every single earmark was pork that would amount to $18B cut, while $700B was just handed out for the bailout, and another $125B every year goes to Iraq. That's like trying to balance your family budget and avoid foreclosure by discontinuing your subscription to the daily newspaper. Speaking of the budget, he promised to have it balanced by the end of his first term, a statement that is either blatantly dishonest or Palinesquely naive. No new taxes but expect a trillion dollar deficit to be cured in four years through his "stimulus" ideas, ideas keenly similar to those of the current President. In the words of Roger Daltrey: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Americans saw that as tripe. Barry, I agree with you on all points regarding McCain's campaign. He really had two major decisions that would reflect on his temperment and judgment--VP and campaign manager--and he chose Sarah Palin and the Karl Rove school. They doomed him, but he has no one to blame but himself. Tough times ahead, but I really like our chances more now than I did yesterday at this time.

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11-05-2008, 06:57 AM

Posted By: Jim VBDan, I don't think Richard Dwyer was scared by cowbells, Beach Boys or Grand Funk Railroad. I think it was this that frightens him to death. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k</a> (Also Dan, you've got to teach me how to insert videos!)

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11-05-2008, 07:05 AM

Posted By: D. C. Markel************************************************** ******************************* You know, iv'e read through this post and listened to all views carefully. To me though the most accurate statement so far has come from Dave. He hit it right on the head when he stated: >>>> " It's really disappointing just how uneducated MANY of the voters are/were." For me this stuck out like a soar thumb more so than iv'e ever witnessed in the past. To see so many voters involved in this race was truly great, but they weren't educated on the issues as they should have been. They were simply followers which is not what an election is supposed to represent. Tony A. ************************************************** ********************************** How true and I'll only add that the mainstream media (three major TV networks, CNN, MSNBC and major newspapers) shoulders most of the blame by orchestrating obscurantism with a vengeance in regards to shielding some of Obama's most radical positions and political connections that should have terrified any educated person who embraces our Constitution, human rights, free enterprise and issues pertaining to Israel. The parallels between the failed Soviet Union and their puppet press, Pravda, and the Democratic party with the mainstream media are astounding. Sadly, the rank and file voter ignored the above mentioned issues and sold out for his $1200 a year tax cut while their retirement funds will plunge a hundredfold since major corporations will be the primary victims on his economic plan, thus causing stock prices to drop even more and ultimately forcing corporations to move out of the country like Halliburton did and thereby sucking billions of dollars out of our economy. I'm done venting.

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11-05-2008, 07:06 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<< I'm taking Obama at his word when he says he wants to hit with tax increases people above such and such and redistribute it to the underprivilaged to help "boost" the economy.>> And he said this... when?

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11-05-2008, 07:08 AM

Posted By: packsExtremely historic day. For a long time America has preached the mantra that you can be whatever you want to be in this country through hard work and perseverance. However, until now every African-American child born who said they wanted to be President when they grew up was looked at with skepticism. Not anymore.

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11-05-2008, 07:09 AM

Posted By: leonI didn't expect you to have a good answer for this: Blacks that voted for Obama - 40% Blacks that voted for McCain- 01% It's called the taboo word (prejudiced)..... Read what Dave F said above as he echos my sentiments. Regardless, now it's time to start talking about how it's not Obama's fault that he got left with a mess and can't fix it.....I see it coming now...mark my words. I think we all agree we do need a change so we shall see....I am hoping for the best.

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11-05-2008, 07:11 AM

Posted By: jdrumThe thing is no one knows what to expect because he has no body of work. I for one plan to be very open-minded, he is my President. And for those who say it can't be any worse, well it certainly can. It can certainly be a whole lot better as well. Let the man govern and then make the call. If things get too bad, I can go back to clinging to my guns and religion. I've always got that to fall back on. The Republicans have NO ONE to blame but themselves. Not the media, not the young uninformed voters. They need to all stand in front of the mirror today and say, "Who are we?"

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11-05-2008, 07:14 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittI'll stay away from commenting on the last post....... We have what we have. Pretty much the way it was with Bush. That's why we have Obama now and he has 4 years and if he mucks it up, we'll have someone else after that. Hopefully, he's not sitting now figuring out how to get re-elected. I think that too many of our politicians do that on their first day of office instead of trying to figure out how to fix things. Everyone can surmise what MIGHT happen with taxes but until it happens no one really knows. So.....we wait. Regardless, they will go up in many cases for all Americans. Many states are considering raising sales taxes to make up for lost revenues and hunting for other revenue streams. Our state is considering raising from 6 to either 7 or 8 percent. That hits everyone and proportionally the lower class more than the upper class obviously. It would be good to see someone in government really STOP the spending a little and figure out a way to more effectively spend our money. Ditch Iraq and pull that money back home. I don't know. It seems some are hellbent on increasing revenues through taxes but I still think we pay too much to bloated, inefficient politicans who waste about 40% of it on crap. We could have saved about $2 billion on this overblown election that we just witnessed. $1 billon on the presidential election alone. Now THAT's crazy............

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11-05-2008, 07:15 AM

Posted By: Steve Murray"Jazz Hands" has officially been relegated to second place.

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11-05-2008, 07:16 AM

Posted By: Ryan Christoff<img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/vajra1/337269484.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 07:29 AM

Posted By: gotwinsLeon, don't know where you got your numbers, but CNN breaks it down as follows by race: White (74% of voters) OBAMA 43% MCCAIN 55% African-American (13% of voters) OBAMA 95% MCCAIN 4% Latino (8% of voters) OBAMA 66% MCCAIN 32% Asian (2% of voters) OBAMA 61% MCCAIN 35% Other (3% of voters) OBAMA 65% MCCAIN 31% So you can see Obama won all races except white, and convincingly at that. Kerry won over 80% of the black vote in 2004, and Kerry is pretty damn white. If you give Obama Kerry's numbers for black voters, he still wins.

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11-05-2008, 07:38 AM

Posted By: Dave F < I'm taking Obama at his word when he says he wants to hit with tax increases people above such and such and redistribute it to the underprivilaged to help "boost" the economy.>> "And he said this... when?" David- your kidding right? Is this the first you've heard of a democrat wanting to tax the rich and give it back to the little guy? It's called redistribution and it was mentioned many times over during the campaign. Todd- I would imagine those numbers are a little skewed. My belief is Obama got almost all the minority vote, and got most of the white votes of those under 30 years of age. My sister-in-law voted for Obama...she is in her 20's, doesn't have a family yet and believes in "change" and "creative ideas".

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11-05-2008, 07:38 AM

Posted By: leonI agree with Dave on this issue and it should never be about the color of skin....I do honestly believe that....but let me just put your numbers up (I got mine from George Stephenopolous (sp?) last night).....We can let these sink in a bit... White (74% of voters) OBAMA 43% MCCAIN 55% African-American (13% of voters) OBAMA 95% MCCAIN 4% I think enough people are so upset at the economy that there was no way a Republican could win....and that is the way it is. BTW, You proved my point....take care

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11-05-2008, 07:39 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think it is time for people to stop calling Obama a socialist, because it is untrue. Earlier this year my wife and I got a $1200 check from the IRS. I can't seem to recall doing anything to deserve that money. So I guess I am now on welfare and it is Bush who is the socialist. And if my last statement sounds stupid, calling Obama a socialist is just as dumb. The name calling needs to stop.

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11-05-2008, 07:40 AM

Posted By: JoannOK. I'll throw a match into the tinderbox with a half-baked idea I've been kicking around the past week or so. How about this statement: It is proper that people with higher incomes pay more taxes because they tend to use more of the services and benefits that taxes create. People with higher incomes tend to: Travel more. This means flying and the entire NTSB oversight, air traffic control, airport infrastructure that often has a meaningful federal component, all of it. Cruises, with port authorities and navigation information. And, of course, the National Weather Service and NOAA information systems that make sea and air travel possible on a commercial (as opposed to adventure activity) basis. They own cars and use them - for travel and every other thing. The Fed highway system. The oversight on auto saftey, mileage and emissions. The fed highway safety system. They tend to have much more access to health care than poor people. I know - someone will anecdotally bring up poor people getting "free health care" but the bottom line is that the people that have much freer access get much more benefit from medical research like NIH and CDC, from the hospital and doctor safety oversight apparatus, from the FDA and the Rx drug safety and eval programs. They are much more likely to go to and send their children to colleges - often public universities that receive direct and indirect tax dollars. Sure poor people can go through this or that program. But there is simply no debating that many of the large public universities have student bodies that are not drawn largely from the "welfare class". It is from the middle class and higher. They are voracious consumers - so here comes all of the consumer product safety regulations, the Customs Bureau, import controls, transportation and trucking oversight. Yes, poor people buy things. But they aren't outfitting a house and a cottage with plasma TV's and couches and appliances and everything else. They invest - own stocks and the like. How much does the SEC cost to regulate this area, and how much of that benefit goes to someone that has to use food stamps for peanut butter. And on the investment/savings note, the FDIC is no benefit at all to someone that doesn't have a nickel to their name and has never set foot in a bank. But poor people use tax-provided benefits too, I know. There is Medicare, food stamps, public transportation, building safety and inspection systems geared to multi-unit housing. But can we really say that 3% higher taxes on high income earners represents a total give-down to poor people. Like everything else, I don't think it's that simple. No doubt people will have a lot of response to this and arguments as anecdotal as those I've just made. So no, I don't have numbers or data or facts or proof. But I do think that there is some merit to the thinking that this is much more complicated than Taxpayer A handing cash dollars to Poor Person B to buy is bottle with. Joann

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11-05-2008, 07:40 AM

Posted By: Dave F Barry- Was that $1200 check you got not a tax credit on the money you earned and already had given the government?

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11-05-2008, 07:42 AM

Posted By: barrysloateDave- it was given to me under the name of a stimulus package, or something to that effect. So if Obama decides to implement some similar stimulus packages, why is that socialism?

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11-05-2008, 07:45 AM

Posted By: leonI got a note yesterday saying I am getting $900 back. I think that was a stupid plan regardless of the party affiliation. Stupid Stupid Stupid..... You are right about what is going on right this moment vis a vis socialism. I am not for it. I am for a Democratic nation run under the Capitalism doctrine. That means those who work the hardest and are smartest will prosper and those who don't, won't, as much.......(I think that's how to say it?).....I am not for enabling those in the system to stay there....I am for teaching folks to fish instead of giving them one.

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11-05-2008, 07:45 AM

Posted By: John K The GOP is wrong on (pretty much) all the issues: trickle down (doesn't work), global warming (it's real), the war (ask Dick Army), big oil (we should have hybrids all over the place), the environment (helicopter wolf hunting!), education (No Child's Behind is Left), deregulation (Greed is, after all, one of the Seven Deadly Sins), the politics of division (e.g., McCain/Palin/Rove). One of the first things George Bush said when running was, "I'm a uniter, not a divider." Divide and conquer is how the GOP runs itself. To you rich guys, you'll survive with a little bit less. You won't miss any meals or have to turn down the thermostat, and it might even make you feel good to see more Americans doing better.

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11-05-2008, 07:45 AM

Posted By: Matt GoebelStill gives me goosebumps

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11-05-2008, 07:48 AM

Posted By: jdrumJoAnn, A lot of those items are taxed. The more voracious a consumer you are, the more sales tax you pay. The more gas you burn, the more gas tax you pay. And I for one, pay to send my daughter to college. Is the argument: Person A uses the system better than Person B for personal gain, so Person A should pay more for the system? I wonder how we all would like our goods and services priced on our ability to pay for them? Jeff

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11-05-2008, 07:48 AM

Posted By: barrysloateLeon- Obama is an American and believes in capitalism. What free rides is he giving to whom?

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11-05-2008, 07:50 AM

Posted By: Dan Bretta<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/-marhari-/MoreCowbell.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 07:54 AM

Posted By: gotwinsI guess I don't understand your point then. 19 out of every 20 blacks voted for Obama. In 2004, about 17 out of every 20 blacks voted for Kerry. 17 out of 20 and Obama still wins. No way a Republican could win with those stacked numbers of black voters? Tell that to Kerry. Jo Ann,I agree with much of what you say, and you say it well.

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11-05-2008, 08:08 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<< It's called redistribution and it was mentioned many times over during the campaign.>> It was mentioned, alright. By McCain and Palin. Not Obama. Just where is he going to be handing money over to "the little guy." Taxes need to be raised because we are fighting two wars, and the country is way past its eyeballs in debt. (BTW, you can consider a tax cut for everybody to be "redistribution," too. Money would be taken from your children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, who will have to pay the National Debt, and be given to you. Sound good?)

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11-05-2008, 08:09 AM

Posted By: Dave F Barry- I don't have a problem in the world if Obama wants to give a tax break or tax credit to EVERYONE. I don't believe that is at all socialism, it's just getting to keep a percentage more of your own money. That's a different ballgame than saying the "rich" should be hit hard with taxes and everyone else gets breaks. To me that is not the american way. The American way of capatilism wasn't built on the foundation that a 35 year old that started up his own computer internet security company and makes $450k a year should have to give an extra 3% to the guy that was a complete jack off in society, screwed around and dropped out of high school, has a few years of drugs and alcohol abuse under his belt and works 25 hours a week at some fast food joint doing dishes, never looking to better himself.

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11-05-2008, 08:09 AM

Posted By: shane leonardI hope Texas separates itself from the US. We are self sufficient in every area and don't need the assistance from the government. A sad day for sure, especially for those who are self employed. Financially the US needs change, but I think this is going to be a cluster F. Shane Leonard

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11-05-2008, 08:11 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzI couldn't agree more strongly! (And take the rest of the Confederacy with you, while you're at it.)

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11-05-2008, 08:11 AM

Posted By: Dave F David- Your right. Taxes should be raised to pay for this mess. But they should be raised across the board..not just this crap about the "rich". For one, that won't happen anyway...taxes will be raised right down through the middle economy, Obama just failed to mention that.

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11-05-2008, 08:12 AM

Posted By: packsmisunderstanding

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11-05-2008, 08:12 AM

Posted By: peter ullmani would also love to see Texas separate itself from the us...maybe become part of mexico. you guys could abandon the us dollar and implement the amero!

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11-05-2008, 08:13 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittso you weren't proud to be an American yesterday? Wow................

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11-05-2008, 08:13 AM

Posted By: leonI think a thread on politics at this time isn't a bad thing. BUT, you are not going to be able remain anonymous and be able to argue..Nothing personal...thanks much

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11-05-2008, 08:14 AM

Posted By: Dave F "(And take the rest of the Confederacy with you, while you're at it.)" Oh that's wonderful David. And clearly shows how your educated enough to be voting. I'll agree though...as throughout history, the electoral votes have always went the way of the Democrats in the north and liberal California west and the Rublican convservative vote has always relied on the south and heartland where are "guns and religon" still mean something.

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11-05-2008, 08:14 AM

Posted By: jdrumEveryone south of the Mason-Dixon line doesn't think that the National Anthem should be changed to Freebird! Most of us are hard working tax paying Americans like everyone else. <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 08:15 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzDave, how long has this country had a proportional income tax? Since income tax began. Thw well-to-do have always been asked to contribute proportionately more. Now it's just a matter of fine-tuning those proportions. Sounds pretty American to me.

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11-05-2008, 08:16 AM

Posted By: barrysloateDave- hopefully that is not how the plan will work. I'm going to hope that the extra revenue generated by the tax increase won't go to the street corner wino so he can buy a couple of more bottles of Thunderbird. Perhaps a better use of the money could be put towards more free day care centers so that mothers who work don't have to worry about their kids; or perhaps some mortgage relief to families about to go into foreclosure; or maybe somehow, some way making it a little easier for people to get health care. I don't know if this is what will happen, but I would like to just suggest that there are worthwhile ways to use that extra tax revenue. Bush used our taxes to fight an unnecessary war, and I am going to go out on a limb and say Obama will find ways to use that money more wisely. Nobody is for giving away free money to people who don't want to help themselves.

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11-05-2008, 08:18 AM

Posted By: Dave F Packs- whoever you are. I'm confused as to why your confused. I didn't say everyone who wasn't rich dropped out of high school and was a loser. I also didn't say everyone who was rich was 35 year old and owned a internet securities company. Get your head out of the sand.

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11-05-2008, 08:18 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<<Everyone south of the Mason-Dixon line doesn't think that the National Anthem should be changed to Freebird! Most of us are hard working tax paying Americans like everyone else. happy.gif>> I know. I was just answering an absurdity with an absurdity. (Although I have always felt that NY and CA should secede.)

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11-05-2008, 08:20 AM

Posted By: James Todd The Republican party is heavily Christian. Christian doctrine states that those who have more should give more. However, on the issue of tax increases for the rich, Republicans are against it. Doesn't that go against the Christian fundamentals much of the party is based on?

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11-05-2008, 08:22 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<<Oh that's wonderful David. And clearly shows how your educated enough to be voting. I'll agree though...as throughout history, the electoral votes have always went the way of the Democrats in the north and liberal California west and the Rublican convservative vote has always relied on the south and heartland where are "guns and religon" still mean something.>> Now that's a paragraph written by a well-educated person! Aside from the spelling and grammatical errors, you really should check your history concerning Southern votes. You can start by Googling "the solid South."

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11-05-2008, 08:23 AM

Posted By: jdrumNOt advocating any position here but, isn't 25% of 3X more than 25% of X?

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11-05-2008, 08:26 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittdelineates that those making $250K should tithe 15% whereas those below tithe 10%. Pretty much advocates a 10% flat tithe...........

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11-05-2008, 08:28 AM

Posted By: James ToddI'm not saying its a great plan or that I agree with it. I was just having fun with the guns and religion comment earlier. No offense to anyone.

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11-05-2008, 08:34 AM

Posted By: Matt GoebelI usually don't like to get involved in the political threads, but I hate to have words put into my mouth. I said NOTHING about how I felt yesterday. I can say I'm proud of one of my kids for something they've achieved and it doesn't mean I wasn't proud of them before. Policies aside - this was an historic event!

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11-05-2008, 08:38 AM

Posted By: Dan Bretta<img src="http://internetstinkslikebeer.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/cowbell.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 08:39 AM

Posted By: Richard DwyerThe truth about Proposition 8 is that Gay Marriage is wrong. Being a teacher, I was shocked when our own union gave the opposition $3 million dollars to defeat proposition 8. They told untruths to get the public to vote no. Supporters said children would be taught about Gay Marriage. (True statement, 3rd grade health) Opposers said they wouldn't, and it was shameful to use children to say they would. Opposers said that gays were being discriminated against. That may be true, but I don't care about immoral individuals. All the states were looking at California, and I'm proud our state shot down Gay Marriage. Yes, I was a little extreme about Bubba and his friends, but that's what would eventually happen if Gay Marriage was allowed. I believe in the Bible, and it clearly states that Gay Marriage is wrong.

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11-05-2008, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

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11-05-2008, 08:45 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<> Then hold to your beliefs, and don't marry a man. But the Constitution clearly states that there can be no official national religion. And our laws cannot be forced to conform to the Christian Bible. (Or the Koran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or... )

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11-05-2008, 08:47 AM

Posted By: Ken McMillanI find it really stupid that the media is making such a big deal about Obama being black. So what!!!!! He is a human being and he sounds intelligent with some good ideas. He didn't play the race card and didn't need to. Let him do the job and forget about race. Kmac

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11-05-2008, 08:50 AM

Posted By: Jim VBRichard, If you are a teacher, you are smart enough to know that the Bible was written 2000+ years ago as a collection of parables. It is NOT a scientific tome. Learn from the stories. Don't take them literally. If you do, then the punishment for homosexuality must be the death penalty. Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Working a card show on the Sabbath? Death! Exodus 35:1-2 On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death." And touching a football or eating a BLT? Well.. maybe not death, but you aren "clean" anymore. Leviticus 11:7-8 "which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. [8] Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you." Leviticus 11:24-25 "Such is the uncleanness that you contract, that everyone who touches their dead bodies shall be unclean until evening, [25] and everyone who picks up any part of their dead bodies shall wash his garments and be unclean until evening."

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11-05-2008, 08:50 AM

Posted By: jdrum"Dave, how long has this country had a proportional income tax? Since income tax began. Thw well-to-do have always been asked to contribute proportionately more. Now it's just a matter of fine-tuning those proportions. Sounds pretty American to me." Change! Maybe what we need is change! <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 08:51 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSo being gay is immoral because the Bible says so? Yikes.

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11-05-2008, 08:55 AM

Posted By: Anthony S. *** searches desperately for guy drinking a beer and eating popcorn emoticon ***

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11-05-2008, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Dan Bretta<object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/LrllCZw8jiM"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LrllCZw8jiM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>

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11-05-2008, 09:01 AM

Posted By: Steve Murray<img src="http://209.85.12.234/1672/27/emo/popcorn1.gif" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://vbbc.forumotion.com/users/17/23/61/smiles/136179.gif" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 09:02 AM

Posted By: Jim VB<<So being gay is immoral because the Bible says so? Yikes.>> Hey Barry, it's a tough book. What can you say? (You've been living in NYC too long. Once you get out of there, you find the Troglodyte population is alive and thriving, even on the west coast.)

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11-05-2008, 09:05 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittso everyone who lives their life according to the Bible is a troglodyte......

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11-05-2008, 09:07 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIsn't there a section of the Bible that preaches tolerance?

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11-05-2008, 09:08 AM

Posted By: jdrumDon't dare bring your Conestoga south. I've heard reports of swarms of angry Bible thumpers. Edit: To be clear, this is T-I-C (Tongue in Cheek) statement. You know, it's part of the Foot-In-Mouth family.

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11-05-2008, 09:09 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI would be remiss if I didn't add that Dan seems to have the pulse of this long thread down pat. He already knows where it's heading. <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 09:11 AM

Posted By: Jim VBAbsolutely not. I didn't say that. In my opinion, people who exhibit that level of intolerance toward others do start to inch closer to that level. (If Richard is truly living his life according to the Bible, shouldn't he be required to put homosexuals to death?) It's a guidebook, Tom, not a lawbook.

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11-05-2008, 09:11 AM

Posted By: barrysloateYou know my neighborhood, Brooklyn Heights, is the world headquarters of the Jehovah's Witnesses. That's a fact!

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11-05-2008, 09:12 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<<It's a guidebook, Tom, not a lawbook.>> Amen, brother.

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11-05-2008, 09:13 AM

Posted By: leonMy wife, the good Church of Christ member, said a Jehovah's Witnesses came to our door yesterday. She ran out the back.... I am ok with anyone's religion I just don't want it pushed on me....

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11-05-2008, 09:14 AM

Posted By: Jim VB<> I agree 100%. I also don't want it pushed on our government.

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11-05-2008, 09:15 AM

Posted By: leonWe are in agreement.

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11-05-2008, 09:16 AM

Posted By: Dan Brettaless bigotry and more cowbell <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y6c3emqC6aw"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y6c3emqC6aw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>

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11-05-2008, 09:17 AM

Posted By: barrysloateLeon- I can spot them a block away. They always travel in twos or threes, and always carry those pamphlets. And when you walk past them they try to get you to get with the program. Hey, it doesn't bother me, but I've always declined.

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11-05-2008, 09:27 AM

Posted By: Jim VBCrap! I've got BOTH Leon and David A. in agreement with me! Maybe I should rethink this? By the way, anyone with a freee 16 minutes to kill should go to: <a href="http://www.americanrhetoric.com/top100speechesall.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanrhetoric.com/top100speechesall.html</a> and listen to MLK's speech from 45 years ago. It's like he was talking about yesterday. Very moving and supportive of our great country.

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11-05-2008, 09:39 AM

Posted By: Dave F David A- -Aside from my spelling and grammatical errors it shows why I'm uneducated-. Terrific comeback. I'm a civil engineer by profession...I deal with mathmatics, not thesis statements. I believe Dorskind already came down on you once and I'd agree, I don't need some goofball literture professor worrying about my spelling...sounds a little anal retentive especially when you know what the words were supposed to be.

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11-05-2008, 09:46 AM

Posted By: Dave F And Ted- No, i'm not "rich". I don't make anywhere close to 250k. Point being, I'm not asking for handouts from the government. I don't need them to pay for my mortgage or my gas..ha. It starts when your a freaking kid. Raise the kids the right way to take some responsibility on themselves and to not have this "where is mine?" mentality.

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11-05-2008, 10:13 AM

Posted By: JimBRichard Dwyer wrote: "That may be true, but I don't care about immoral individuals." What a loving, Christian comment. Your emulation of Jesus' ideals and values is truly inspiring. He must have said something along those lines a hundred times in the Bible. Seriously, there are many that would consider your comments what is immoral here. "I believe in the Bible, and it clearly states that Gay Marriage is wrong." Good for you. The problem is that the Bible is not the standard for law in this country. Nobody here is compelled to believe in the Bible. We have freedom of religion in the United States. If your religious beliefs make you opposed to gay marriage, don't support it in your church. Go to a church that does not marry gays. What makes your private religious beliefs those that the whole country should adopt? Many good Americans consider them hateful and despicable. A little friendly P.R. advice for the extreme Christian right <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif"> : Why not focus on Jesus' message of loving your neighbor rather than spreading a doctrine of hate that only drives people away. I bet your recruiting would be a lot more successful and your message would be closer to Jesus'. JimB

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11-05-2008, 10:14 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonOne of the quotes from higher up in this thread - "I hope Texas separates itself from the US". YAY!!! Where do I sign up for this one,,, Alaska has a secessionist party (ask Mr Palin), now let us get one for Texas also. = I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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11-05-2008, 10:20 AM

Posted By: JimBBut so much great American music comes from Texas! JimB

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11-05-2008, 10:26 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<<goofball literture professor>> Actually, Dave, I'm a goofball physics professor. Theoretical physics, in fact. So I would not hesitate to put both my mathematical skills and my knowledge of various branches of mathematics up against yours. But I still know how to read and write. And I can spell "literature."

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11-05-2008, 10:35 AM

Posted By: Bob Pomilla"throughout history.......the rublican (sic)...... vote has always relied on the south" Huh?!?! Democrats owned the "Solid South" for the better part of a hundred years following the Civil War. Republican (the "party of Lincoln" - who "freed the slaves" - remember?) support for black rights during Reconstruction alienated the segregated South and led to Democratic domination for the last quarter of the 19th century and more than the first half of the 20th century.

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11-05-2008, 10:36 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzAnd, Dave, it wasn't just your spelling and grammar I was commenting upon. There is also your lack of knowledge about things that happened before you were born. Here's your sage pronouncement (complete with your numerous technical errors): "as throughout history, the electoral votes have always went the way of the Democrats in the north and liberal California west and the Rublican convservative vote has always relied on the south" Now, here's a bit of actual historical fact, regarding "the Solid South": "Solid South refers to the electoral support of the Southern United States for Democratic Party candidates for nearly a century from 1877, the end of the Reconstruction, to 1964."

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11-05-2008, 10:37 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittA quick Google search yields.............. <a href="http://texassecession.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://texassecession.com</a>/

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11-05-2008, 10:38 AM

Posted By: Dave F REPUBLICAN. Good lord at all the spelling guys. I was talking about recent history Bob, not the 1860's or 1910's.

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11-05-2008, 10:42 AM

Posted By: Dave F David- Again, I was talking about recent history. Since the Jimmy Carter debacle no other Democrat has received the electoral votes from the majority south. I'm trying to understand how going back a hundred years has anything to do with recent voting trends when women or blacks weren't even allowed to vote.

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11-05-2008, 10:46 AM

Posted By: DaryleWhat are we voting on?

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11-05-2008, 10:49 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWe're voting for more Cowbell <img src="http://www.brandon-hall.com/janetclarey/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/cowbell.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 10:51 AM

Posted By: J LevineViews from another teacher... I live in California and have taught here for 12 years. I am disgusted that bigotry and intolerance survive today. My district is very conservative and everyday I had to drive through a neighborhood plastered with Yes on 8 placards and protests. This is just plain wrong. First...the 3rd grade curriculum talked about teaches family life and how to be a productive family member. It neither supports gay marriage or ignores it. In fact, the way it was written was to support any family unit including divorced, remarried, deaths of parents, extended families, etc. Yes, gay marriage can be included but it is not taught in any form. And just for the record, the state curriculum would not change because of Prop. 8. The fact remains that gay people can still live together as a family and adopt children as their own in California. If you want to read the actual California state Health Framework it is here. <a href="http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/cr/cf/documents/healthfw.pdf" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/cr/cf/documents/healthfw.pdf</a> To the people who say gay marriage is wrong as stated in the bible do not read the bible very closely. The passage that is most talked about in Leviticus was written during a time when the Jewish nation was just starting to recover after decades of strife. The laws in Leviticus were there to encourage habits that would make the Israelite nation strong...eating safe meats (birds--yes the eagle according to the bible is an abomination, certain shellfish, certain stock animals), living clean (women were not to touch anything while on their period and if they did it was to be burned), and propogating the nation (this is the real reason behind the abolishment of gay lifestyle...it was a waste of semen that was the problem...nothing is said about lesbianism btw.)...people who use the bible to justify beliefs are fine by me but you must understand that the bible, while it has its uses, is an imperfect creation from a time long ago. Another example. I have heard many people say they believe that the rapture and end of days are coming. This concept was not around until about 400 years ago. The words rapture and end of days do not exist in biblical teachings until fairly recently. I have also seen signs in the front yards of the school neighborhood stating Obama is a socialist. Fine by me. So was Jesus. The bible quotes Jesus telling people to take what little you have and make sure that everyone is taken care of equally. Sounds like socialism to me. (Acts: 4 32-35) I worry about people who pick and choose from the bible as some have stated here this week. Do not forget that divorce is forbidden in the bible and yet many of the pro-8 people I see at school are divorced. That is adultery in the bible and a sin. Do not push your religion on me and I will not push back. I feel that God would love everyone whether sinner or saint. What worries me most about Prop. 8 is that it is a very slippery slope. If you make the argument that gay marriage is a moral issue then you can make the argument that Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, Jews, etc. cannot marry as it is a sin and the bible forbids a marriage that does not glorify (a Christian) god. A simple phrase in the state constitution could take those away too...what about the right to procreate? Again...the biblical argument can be made that Mormons, etc. should not be allowed to have children because they are not following the true glory of the Christian God. Sound ridiculous or scary? I did not mean to rant but I am very sad everytime I hear someone trying to force their view of the world on someone else. Judge not lest ye be judged. Joshua

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11-05-2008, 10:51 AM

Posted By: LenK well, that may have been the only lesbian wedding Elaine Benes will be able to attend.....her best-man days may be over

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11-05-2008, 10:53 AM

Posted By: BobThank God for Virginia and Florida. The McCain red state list was starting to look like a map of the Confederate States of America. Not all white Southerners are Bubbas and right wingers. As I drove to the poll yesterday I saw a group of young girls with signs that said "Obama kills babies" and "Obama is a terrorist." A little closer to the polls were the signs that the older people held which said McCain and Palin were "true" Americans and belittled Obama and Biden. After I voted I spotted an elderly Black man on one street corner with a sign that simply said "The whole world is watching" and a young Hispanic youth with a sign which said "Yes We Can." I was proud to cast my vote and after watching the very gracious concession speech of John McCain (too bad so many of his supporters didn't have this man's grace and class) and the inspiring speech of Obama, I thought two things: I thank God we have a President who might be able to help heal wounds and make us a united states instead of a fractured and fragmented one filled with fear and hatred and that we should all say a prayer for Obama and his family that the whack jobs and nut cases will be too busy with their own sad lives to bother to even think of harming our President and his family. Seeing the tears in the eyes of African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Asians and so many Whites during the victory speech gave me a lump in my throat and I came away thinking maybe, just maybe, things will get better and we will all be a little kinder, more understanding and a better people...

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11-05-2008, 10:58 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAmen Bob. I know many people who are elated today. This is the best news we've gotten in a long time.

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11-05-2008, 10:58 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzThanks, Joshua. (And you, too, Bob.)

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11-05-2008, 10:59 AM

Posted By: Jim VBJosh, One minor nit-pick... Both Mormons and Catholics are Christians, whether the Christians want us or not.

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11-05-2008, 11:00 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzBut we Jews aren't!

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11-05-2008, 11:00 AM

Posted By: Bob PomillaOK, Dave, recent history it is. However, your original reference was to "throughout history" which, you'd have to agree, is different from "recent history". Also, I believe it was Lyndon Johnson and his slew of civil rights legislation that turned the south, not Carter. I believe, for example, that Nixon swept the south in '72, though because of Watergate and the fact that Carter was himself a southerner, he did win the south in '76.

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11-05-2008, 11:01 AM

Posted By: jdrumIf I'm white and live in the South and vote for McCain, then I must be a Bubba or a right-winger, or both. Is that Inductive or Deductive Reasoning? <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.TBob, And it's looking like North Carolina, too. By about 12,000 votes.

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11-05-2008, 11:04 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanBob, Well stated...I also got teary eyed during obama's speech...it was truly a defining moment for our future as Americans. pete ullman

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11-05-2008, 11:09 AM

Posted By: sagardThis election gives the Republicans a great opportunity. They can preach personal responsibility and really start to mean it. They can return to the fiscal conservative roots and reclaim house and senate seats in two years. After that they can run a fiscal conservative and socially moderate candidate and they will retake the White House. Lower taxes and small government is the argument that will win in this country. Unfortunately the five Republican admins since 1980 have not practiced this ideal. All have run exploding deficits that will someday be paid for by my kids and grandkids via cash or quality of life. McCain's biggest problem was he didn't know when he was right on an issue.

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11-05-2008, 11:10 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittIt sure isn't tolerant...................

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11-05-2008, 11:11 AM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyIt's funny how in this country it isn't cool to attack or belittle someone for anything but their Religion. Those that say things (like above) about Christians because they do not believe that particular religion, shame on you! There are many good Christians out there and saying things (as stated above) is highly offensive to them. Contrary to some opinions Christians are NOT gun toting, uneducated, toothless Southerners. I find it interesting that some religions are fair-game when it comes to attacks and others aren't. Try saying bad things about the Jewish faith (which also believes in the Bible, last I checked), and see how far you get.

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11-05-2008, 11:12 AM

Posted By: samuelthat was the best post I've seen so far on this message board. thank you

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11-05-2008, 11:13 AM

Posted By: jdrumThe issue is that a lot of people (non-Christians) see Christianity as a subtitute for intellect. And for that matter a lot of Christians give them reason to. See: Bill Maher. Edited for southern spellin' of substitute!

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11-05-2008, 11:17 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittright Jeff or someone will bust your a$$................ instead of weighing the merit of your argument..........

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11-05-2008, 11:19 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI won't Tom. I'm a reformed man.

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11-05-2008, 11:20 AM

Posted By: Dan Bretta<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/_fragileXcliche_/cowbell-more.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 11:20 AM

Posted By: jdrumYou can corect me anytime! I need it!

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11-05-2008, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittBarry..........I know you're tolerant............ I love the people who preach tolerance.......as long as everyone is tolerant of THEIR views, they are tolerant........in concept, it is a good thing though. Just humorous...........

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11-05-2008, 11:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloate"Correct" <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 11:31 AM

Posted By: jdrumthanks for noticing. Anybody around here collect cards?

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11-05-2008, 11:35 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanI do I do!

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11-05-2008, 11:51 AM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyJeff, I understand you point, and agree to an extent. There are definitely people in any group that tend to give them a bad name, especially in the name of religion. I am usually the last to get involved with these types of threads but I just felt like the thread was getting a little extreme on the Christianity bashing for a minute there. To each their own, regardless of how wierd one might find it. -Rhett

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11-05-2008, 12:14 PM

Posted By: J LevineClarity.... Firstly, many of my Christian friends and churches do not believe that Mormons, Witnessess, Catholics and Lutherans (among others) are true Christians. They actually call them "perversions of faith." These are fundamentalist Christian views. Speaking of which...I know many conservative right wing gay Christian people also who completely believe in their faith with the same conviction as anyone else. Speaking of which, would people be upset if gay people had taken to heart the notion that being gay is a choice (I believe it is not) and applied under the federal guidelines for a Church of Gay which gives them equal protection under the law? Also...Jews do not believe in the bible. We only follow the Old Testament (Torah portion). Second...I am not a Christian hater. I actually know quite a few church going, right winging, god loving Christians who voted no on Prop. 8. They are my friends and I love them to death. They also do not preach to me constantly or force their views on me. We talk, we argue, but we do it with respect, dignity and a sense of where each of us is coming from and sometimes I change my mind and sometimes they change theirs. Third...Being Jewish, I am hardest on my Jewish friends...I give them more grief about their beliefs and practices than I do anyone else (well, except for collectors of Donruss---those people are just frickin' crazy!!). Fourth...I am not an Anti-Dentite (I just have an appointment for the dentist today and am nervous). Joshua

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11-05-2008, 12:20 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittYES on Prop 8? I mean, I'm sure there are good people who voted that way--right? People who arrived at that point of view not completely from hatred? Just that marriage is between a man and a woman? Or is hatred the only point of view someone could have used to vote YES........

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11-05-2008, 12:23 PM

Posted By: James FeaginOn a personal note, as a practicing and believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) I have always relished in a strange way that it seems that both the Left and Right in this country reject us. It has always kept me on my toes and has helped me establish a positive dialogue with friends (none of which are LDS). The way I see it, if you are going to label yourself anything, have a good personal reason for doing so. For instance, with my Obama friends (who I voted for by the way) I state the tenants of our faith and the virtues of Christianity. Not the brand that the "Christian Coalition" espouses, but of it as an intellectual and liberating movement. To my conservative friends, I state adamently that we need to sometimes think outside of the box. Not for the sake of appeasal, but because we are genuinely interested in the spiritual and social welfare of people. It could be argued that anti-Mormon bigotry helped contribute to the demise of the Republican party. To which I reply, godspeed and hopefully you'll be more inclusive in the future. By the way, voting was wonderful! James (the average every day Mormon who goes to church with Harvard scientists who believe).

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11-05-2008, 12:31 PM

Posted By: jdrumI think they may have brought in a bunch of southern folk and rigged it. Except, no one from VA or FLA.

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11-05-2008, 12:34 PM

Posted By: Dave F Well, best case Obama pulls it together and is the next FDR. Worst case he's another George Bush asleep behind the wheel and we'll find another pres. four years from now. I don't think he can literally run us in the ground as a country no matter how hard he tries. <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Kenneth A. CohenJames, For the record, I have no problem with the Mormon faith (nor any other for that matter). It's just the no booze thing I couldn't deal with. (: Ken

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11-05-2008, 12:35 PM

Posted By: J LevineI am friends with people who voted Yes but it has put a strain on our friendship. This to me seems a very hurtful thing and to say that it is simply what you believe is fine by me. I get it but do not underestimate what you are saying when you make that argument. This argument can cut both ways. Christians once believed that the sons of Ham (blacks and inferior) where okay to be slaves, they believed that women should be seen and not heard and have no place in the church, the infirm, mentally challenged, or physically disabled (either from birth or injury) should not be allowed to worship and should be shunned because they are not made in God's wonderful image. All these were once beliefs that good Christians held but are now horrifically looked upon. It is difficult for me to comprehend how a loving person otherwise could have such contempt for another being. If someone can give me a cogent argument why two people in love should not be given the opportunity to marry that does not involve "because the bible tells me so" then I will listen. I still will not be happy but I will listen. Joshua PS (edit added) I don't want to slam James but the Mormon Church was the biggest fund raiser for Prop 8. Again, I have many Mormon friends as well who voted for and against and some who will not discuss it with me...this is their choice. Overall I have found Mormons to be loving, honest, intelligent people that I can relate to on any level.

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11-05-2008, 12:42 PM

Posted By: James FeaginJoshua, If you have time to e-mail me on the issue, I would be happy to reply. I have two little rugrats, but will find time to reply even if it might take a bit. James

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11-05-2008, 12:46 PM

Posted By: JimB"Contrary to some opinions Christians are NOT gun toting, uneducated, toothless Southerners." You mean some have teeth? <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif"> Sorry. Just kidding. I couldn't resist. <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif"> I love my many Christian friends and family members including Catholics, Mormons, evangelicals, and mainline Protestants. It is the hatred and intolerance sometimes spread (including on this board) in the name of Christianity that I find troublesome. I won't be silent in the face of the bigotry that harms both individuals and our nation as a whole. JimB

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11-05-2008, 12:49 PM

Posted By: jdrumWell said and agreed. Jeff More teeth than guns

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11-05-2008, 12:52 PM

Posted By: Jim VB<<Firstly, many of my Christian friends and churches do not believe that Mormons, Witnessess, Catholics and Lutherans (among others) are true Christians.>> Josh, And those people would be 100% wrong. They don't get to define who is and isn't Christian. It's not that narrow a path.

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11-05-2008, 01:03 PM

Posted By: Jim VBRhett, < ...just felt like the thread was getting a little extreme on the Christianity bashing for a minute there. >> I just re-read about half this thread and I didn't really see any Christian bashing. I did see some ribbing of Richard D. and his extreme views, but I certainly didn't think that was "Christian bashing." Did I miss it or did someone edit something out while I was at lunch?

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11-05-2008, 01:05 PM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyJoshua, I hope all goes well at the dentist today. Us Dentites aren't ALL bad! -Rhett

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11-05-2008, 01:07 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittPenthouse in the waiting room?

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11-05-2008, 01:21 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Tom, I'm heading out to see Seinfeld in concert in a few hours. Should be interesting.

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11-05-2008, 01:23 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblitttwice here in the 'Ville.............Great the first time, okay the second. He used about 80% same material the second time as the first but still funny. We were in 4th row the first time and LAST row the second. Forgot to take my Tweety Pez the first time though...............you'll have fun.......

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11-05-2008, 01:50 PM

Posted By: J LevineJim, I totally agree with you...I try not to lump all Christian based faiths together as that is an important defining part of many people's lives...that being said, they do define it anyway (at least the fundamentalist side in MY experience). How is it they can define what is and what is not a Christian denomination but define who can practice a simple religious marriage ceremony? You don't see the hypocrisy in that? I know many Christian conservatives who believe that Jehovah's Witnessess are not Christian but have strayed from the true path. Conversly I know many Jews who believe Jews for Jesus are really not Jews but Christians. Heck, I grew up in an Orthodox neighborhood where they thought I was not a "real" Jew because I did not practice like they did. It is an odd thing how we define ourselves and those around us. It often makes my head hurt. Joshua PS Rhett, I actually love my dentist but I am afraid I slipped a filling and it is going to cost me money (crappy school insurance) as opposed to actual physical pain.

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11-05-2008, 02:27 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthWhat some here, and across the nation, are missing is that we are all people. The fact that we need to attack one another for a belief or a lack thereof is counterproductive. Why cant we all exist believing what works for us without feeling we need to attack or impose our beliefs on others? Our country has become polarized and anything but united and so much effort is placed on hating and fighting. As a species we still seem unable to eliminate the bias as seeing people that are different than ourselves as evil or some kind of threat. I find that sad as a person who practices tolerance and is willing to look far beyond the surface. I find it interesting in posts where some have qualified the religions of their friends or felt they had to. I understand why this was done but from my point of view I would simply state that I love my friends, who are people first. It is who they are that draws me to them not what religion they believe in or how devout they are. I care not what their political beliefs are or if they are gay or straight. Seems so narrow minded to view people in a way where we have to label them with these standards if in doing so it makes us more divisive. Yesterday was a tremendous day for the US and the first time in 6 years I have felt there is actually hope for us a nation. I knew either candidate would have been a marked improvement over the administration that has ruled since 2000. Both men gave very moving speeches and if you are at all human you had to be touched by what was said. McCain acted with the class, selflessness and humbleness he has demonstrated throughout his career. Some of you may not like Obama but he is a natural leader and has a burdensome job ahead of him. He is compelling and intelligent and offers us a better future. I appreciate his willingness to serve the country and welcome his efforts. He will be the people's president and I suspect we will all be better off during his term. Greg

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11-05-2008, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieEven though I didn't vote for Obama, I am optomistic. I woke up this morning and the sky did NOT FALL. Go figure! I will certainly pray for Obama, after all even though I didn't vote for him, he is my president too! martyOgelvie

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11-05-2008, 03:18 PM

Posted By: GeorgeHC<img src="http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Poster_Cowbell.gif" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 03:24 PM

Posted By: jdrumself-interested note. I'm really glad the election is over because hopefully my 8 year son will now stop running around the house saying, "I'm Jacob Drum and I approved this message." <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 03:40 PM

Posted By: Jim VBJeff, Too funny about your son! My kids are 19 and 15. My daughter (the 15 year old) pointed out to me today, that January 20th will be the first time in either of their lives that the President wasn't named Bush or Clinton. And to think we could have had Hillary!

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11-05-2008, 03:54 PM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieI was doing the math with my son last night. He's 8 and Bush has been in Office nearly his entire life. I told him that he might be 16 before a new President comes in office.. He never understood why they couldn't keep on running after 2 terms... "why not" he said, if they are good at it then shouldn't we let them stay..

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11-05-2008, 04:13 PM

Posted By: jdrumJim, My daughter is 18 so this is the first Presidential election she's been able to vote in. My son is 8 so this is the first one he remembers. It has made for some very entertaining family discussions. Oh the optimism of youth!

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11-05-2008, 04:42 PM

Posted By: Fred CI guess this could be appropriate... the Obama rookie... <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1225932094.JPG" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 04:44 PM

Posted By: jdrumWhoevers handi-work that is, excellent job! But Obama is not near that rough around the edges! Neat!

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11-05-2008, 04:45 PM

Posted By: Jim VBJeff, Well then this will be your kids first time without a President named Bush or Clinton, too. Check and see if your daughter realizes that.

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11-05-2008, 04:48 PM

Posted By: jdrumI'll ask her tonight when she calls home for money! <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">

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11-05-2008, 04:52 PM

Posted By: Jim VBFred, Yours looks older than mine. Are you sure yours isn't rebacked? <img src="http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb189/jvb6034/Obamarookie.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-05-2008, 06:06 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaTHANK YOU GEORGE!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's about dang time someone gave me more cowbell!

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11-05-2008, 07:16 PM

Posted By: BobFor the first time in 50 years there isn't a Bush or Dole in elective office according to one commentator last night. Jeff- A lot of really nice, intelligent, cultured and very personable Southerners voted for McCain; however, most of the more vocal haters went with McCain and Bible Spice also. Even McCain himself said he was sickened by the angry and venemous sentiments of some of his supporters, many whipped in to a frenzy by Governor Bullwinkle. One poll said that 20% of the McCain supporters in the South identified Obama's faith as "Muslim" and 16% stated he was a "terrorist." That's scary. Also scary is the fact that one of the two alleged conspirators to assasinate Obama and several African-Americans, was born and raised in West Helena, AR, my State. There are a lot of whackos and nut jobs out there who are haters and I pray that they keep their assault weapons in their basements and let Obama proceed with the huge task ahead. There is a New South which seems to never get mentioned and I get as bent out of shape about the stereotypes of Southerners as anyone down here, but when I saw some of the anti-Obama people spewing their hatred I couldn't help believe that some of them were the sons and daughters and grandsons and grandaughters of those people in the black and white films we have all seen deluging Blacks with fire hoses, beating them up (and worse) in the name of God, Christianity and Right. The South has traveled a distance but we are not yet where we need to be, (nor is the East, North or West for that matter).

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11-05-2008, 10:47 PM

Posted By: DeanH3OK, I don't like to get into political discussions but I must reply. Why is it if you vote yes on 8 then you are a hater? I don't get that. I voted yes on 8. I don't have anything against gay people. They can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home. They already have the same rights as everybody else. I just don't want it called a "Marriage". That's just my opinion and belief. I was able to voice my opinion by voting. And the majority agreed. If the majority would have voted No, then I would live with it. Plus California already voted on this before, which it passed, and a court decided to overturn it. If that is the case, why vote? We voted again and guess what? It passed again. Guess what? It's going to go to court again. Why vote on this stuff if it's only going to keep going to court until a particular side gets their way. Another flabergasting thing to me. California voted no to parental notification for an abortion on a minor. How in the world can somebody believe it's ok for a parent not to be notifed if there daughter goes to get an abortion. Teachers can't give a student a cough drop without a parental note yet that same kid can be sent off to get an abortion without the parent knowing. Yet California passes the proposition for better treatment of farm animals. I'm not against treating animals better but the chickens get treated better than kids do in California. When did we hop on board the crazy train around here.

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11-06-2008, 12:40 AM

Posted By: Steven FinleyBaseball. Cards. Please.

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11-06-2008, 01:33 AM

Posted By: DMcD<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/miscellanybaseball/Obama.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/miscellanybaseball/Biden.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/miscellanybaseball/McCain.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/miscellanybaseball/Palin.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-06-2008, 03:24 AM

Posted By: jdrumI understand where you are coming from. But your original post did not contain your explanation, just the Geographical Profiling. And you should always be wary of who the news puts on as the "face" of anything. Do you think the woman who was quoted as saying that now she didn't have to worry about putting gas in her car or paying her mortgage reflected the views of the average Obama supporter? Of course not. BTW: The other co-conspirator was from Paris, TN where my Father-in-Law was born and raised and about 30 miles from where I went to college.

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11-06-2008, 04:04 AM

Posted By: JoannDean, I have to disagree with your statement that gays already have all the rights anyways. They might in areas of housing and employment, especailly in California, but they most certainly do not have inherent spousal rights at all. As to why these things keep going back to court in California after people have voted on it, it's because a court will strike down an unconstitutional law regardless of whether it was propery enacted by a legislature or citizen vote. Think about the Bill of Rights at the federal level, which exists for exactly the kinds of reasons you are frustrated about - people vote something in but courts shoot it down. The Founding Fathers knew that some rights are so important that they had to be put beyond the reach of politicians, beyond the reach of the majority, beyond the reach of a mob mentality and beyond the reach of people that would vote them away for others. So the rights in the BoR can only be revised by Constitutional amendment - a much much tougher thing to do that has to much more clearly reflect the very stable and unified fabric of social structure and not just the current mood of 50% + 1. Some of the states are now struggling with whether gay marriages fall into this category of very basic rights that need this level of protection. I don't know if Prop 8 was an amendment to the Cali constitution or not, but if it wasn't it will most def end up at least back in a Cali court. (And the whole damn thing would be settled overnight if the proponents would stop using the term "marriage" and use "civil unions" if all that's truly wanted are the legal benefits. As long as they insist on using a term that has profound religious meaning in this country - outside of the legal meaning - it will be a tough haul.) J

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11-06-2008, 04:58 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffI don't have anything against straight people. Some of my best friends are straights. They can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home. I just don't want it called a "Marriage". From now on, I'm going to refer to straight marriage as "civil union." You can still have all the legal rights, though. The term "Marriage" is a legal one that happens to also have profound religious meaning to many. It is not simply a religious term. There is absolutely no non-religious reason for gay marriage to be any different from straight marriage. None. Marriage is marriage. Calling it "civil union" still says, very loudly, that one couples' "civil union" is less than another couples' "Marriage." I agree that it will be a long haul for gay marriage to be completely equal to any other marriage, but it was also a long haul to go from separate drinking fountains to President Obama. Long haul or not, justice and equality are possible in this country. Even if you're gay. Today, many straight couples will go down to their local courthouse to get married by a justice of the peace. Even if they are not religious, they are still getting married. They are not getting "civil-unioned." Are they any less married than someone who gets married in a church by a priest or minister? Shouldn't their marriage be viewed as less than your full-blown religious matrimony? Unless you are a closet homosexual who is in a straight marriage in order to hide the truth from yourself and those around you, what possible reason could you have to care about who someone else marries? How could it possibly lessen the legitimacy of your marriage? Didn't Arkansas just make it illegal for gay couples to adopt? Yes, gay people have it so good in this country. All the rights straight people have, plus no discrimination against them. Also, they never have to worry about being pistol-whipped and left for dead tied to a fencepost, or any other harm coming to them simply because of who they are. It really sounds great to be gay in 2008 America. It's a wonder more Americans aren't making the "choice" to be gay. -Ryan

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11-06-2008, 05:02 AM

Posted By: J.McMurryI knew this post was in trouble with the first comment on how "civil" it was. It took just 32 posts before it took a nose dive. I'm relatively new to this board compared to most of you,but I've never read a post that ran the gamut of causing me to feel elated,hopeful,angry,sad and insulted,so congrats on that feat. This thread is the perfect example of why the country is struggling right now,and that is that there are too many factions that are all demanding something different and we all know that you cant please everybody. The country today is run by Professional Politicians, think about that word,PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS, They only serve themselves and those that can do something for them. B.O. may be different,but I have my doubts since he appears to be stocking his cabinent with Clinton retreads,but I pray that he succeeds for all our sakes. I have a little side hobby in which I am always keeping an ear out for profound quotes, so I'll leave you with two. "I know theres racism in the world,but if there is a goal that I really want to achieve, there aint no man in this world gonna keep me from it." Charles Barkley "The "South" starts at the Canadian border." Spike Lee

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11-06-2008, 07:19 AM

Posted By: GeorgeHC<img src="http://www.pallian.com/pallian/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/president_obama_sm.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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11-06-2008, 07:35 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieI know its just symantics but, Gay men and straight men in California have equal RIGHTS! Both have the RIGHT to marry a women.Neither can legally marry a man. EQUAL RIGHTS! I know its just symantics but worth mentionnig. mco

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11-06-2008, 08:31 AM

Posted By: Fred CI'm a little confused here. Obama is the first "black" man elected as president. Let me see, wasn't his mother "white"? Does that make him the first non "complete white" person to be elected or is he the first "black" man to be elected? Is this something that society believes? If you are only half "white" then you are automatically pooled with the other half of your ethnicity? Ok, maybe a little to "deep" in thought here... time for an early morning cocktail...

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11-06-2008, 08:42 AM

Posted By: Dave Hornish"time for an early morning cocktail... " That is the best advice I have ever read on Net54

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11-06-2008, 08:43 AM

Posted By: Steve MurrayI think that bi-racial people may choose what race they want to consider themselves to be. It is apparent that Obama chose to be African-American, ab initio.

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11-06-2008, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffMarty, I don't know what symantics are, but your statement is not just semantics. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to post what it actually is, but it's much, much more than semantics. Also, I don't think either can legally marry a women. Women is the plural of woman. Or it is legal now to be extra-hetero and have several wives? Steve, do you think Obama or any other dark-skinned, half-black half-white person with an afro could choose to be white? -Ryan

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11-06-2008, 08:59 AM

Posted By: Steve Murray"Steve, do you think Obama or any other dark-skinned, half-black half-white person with an afro could choose to be white?" Yes

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11-06-2008, 09:13 AM

Posted By: James FeaginRyan, I know you are a compassionate, nice person. However, when you become the grammar police...it appears condescending and belittles the point the other person is making, no matter if you agree with it or not. For the record, I agree with exactly one-half of your initial argument. The other half strikes me as incorrect, but am thinking it over and trying to come to resolution on it within myself. Well spewed, James

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11-06-2008, 09:25 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieRyan, My point is, all men in California have equal RIGHTS! Gay men are asking for Additional RIGHTS. nothing more, nothing less.

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11-06-2008, 09:25 AM

Posted By: J LevineMore clarity... First...For those of you that say Civil Unions are just as good and have equal rights are just plain wrong. People who are married have several advantages. They can file joint tax returns and get tax benefits that are not allowed under Civil Unions. Married persons are established as kin. Meaning that a gay couple must create legal contracts that arrange things like medical care, death benefits, wills, etc. that are given freely to married couples. This cost alone often precludes people from doing this. Civil Unions are not recognized by other states. If a person moves to another state the civil union has not validity. Marriages are recognized across state lines. Civil Unions are not equal rights. Second...for those of you who say the majority spoke and the rest of us should just accept that are surprisingly short sighted. Try this scenario...You are driving along your local street where you are t-boned by a truck and paralyzed from the waist down. The majority of people in this country are able bodied individuals where handicap parking, bathrooms, etc. are more of an annoyance than useful. If we go by the logic of the majority is always correct then you as a parapalegic should just have to deal with steps. Both lead to the same doors so you have the same equal rights. Yes, it might be tougher to get some things done but that is okay because the majority says you are equal. Seperate but equal is a saying that was used often once upon a time and it seems to have come up once again. Whether you are fighting for civil rights for African Americans, people with disabilities, or gay rights you must understand that seprate but equal is just wrong. Many other laws are there to protect people where the majority would just as well take away their rights. I think that the founding fathers created the ideals of our country so that it will aspire to help even the smallest minority gain justice and equality. This is one of the great things our country and Constitution guarentee. Joshua

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11-06-2008, 09:26 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffJames, The statement I was commenting on was incredibly condescending to an entire segment of our population, so I don't mind being a little condescending in my response. I'll leave the level-headed responses to Barry and Jim B. Some day I might be able to respond differently. What is the half of my initial argument that you're talking about? -Ryan

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11-06-2008, 09:31 AM

Posted By: James FeaginJoshua, I'm very sensitive to the feelings of those homosexuals who were defeated this election. I can imagine the majority feel angry, lonely, confused and probably many other emotions. I live in Maryland, but spoke about the pros and cons of this proposition for well over two hours last night with my wife. I do feel, and many of the African-Americans in my neighborhood feel it is quite a stretch though to equate homosexual marriages to the civil rights movement of the past decades. To piggyback on that movement does no justice to either cause.