Bruce Dorskind .. a question for you [Archive]

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10-14-2008, 05:43 PM

Posted By: randhello bruce(s), i want to start off by saying i really enjoy your posts and after a couple of years on this board i never get tired of reading them. my question to you is quite simple... one of the great things about this hobby i love are the great find stories, how cards come to the market by accident or just found.. can you share some stories when you stumbled across some terrific stuff. thx

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10-14-2008, 06:24 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI hope Bruce doesn't object to me posting this, but it's been posted here in the past without problem. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nx4eVGUmbaM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nx4eVGUmbaM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

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10-14-2008, 06:33 PM

Posted By: Mark EvansPretty neat video. Thanks Dan and Bruce. Mark

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10-14-2008, 06:36 PM

Posted By: AdamLast month, when I was passing through NYC, Bruce (very, very graciously) gave me a tour of the part of his collection that is currently in his NYC apartment. It is truly stunning. I had never seen before the You Tube video that is posted above. My only comment is to see, in person, the "Zimmer" game that is on Bruce's home office wall is quite remarkable. I could not keep my eyes off of it. Truly a stunning and unique piece. Thank you again Bruce. EDITED TO ADD: If you watch that You Tube video above, Bruce discusses the Zimmer game towards the end.

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10-14-2008, 07:05 PM

Posted By: randterrific video and i hope others can add to it, and enjoy this thread

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10-14-2008, 07:31 PM

Posted By: Jeff Prizneroh that's good stuff, on so many levels.

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10-14-2008, 09:01 PM

Posted By: Jason Land interesting to hear the stories but Bruce never mentioned his partners. I would think they would be upset.

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10-14-2008, 09:08 PM

Posted By: Jodi BirkholmThey were all speaking in unison; it's more of a collective voice. (Note to Barry: Consider that semicolon an early birthday present.)

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10-14-2008, 09:31 PM

Posted By: David AtkatzI especially like the part where they take advantage of the poor, ignorant schoolteacher! Way to go, guys!

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10-14-2008, 09:58 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd I think the Bruces can speak for themselves but I dont think they took advantage of the school teacher. I cant imagine a teacher being that naive about a value of a card after 5 years of correspondences asking for it. Back when they bought the card $1400 overnight was a large sum of money for a card and that apparently was the teachers price on it,one that he held out 5 years for. It was also a very nice profit for the teacher considering what he paid the first guy for it. The guy never came to the Dorskind group asking for a value and he had 5 years to find out on his own. If I paid a dollar for something I didnt know about and someone offered me $1000 for it,I'd be stupid not to look into it first right away. Years ago I bought a t206 card with a miscut and asked the t206museum.com people about it. They said it had very little value over a common but they were also interested in it and offered $35 I believe. I had no interest in selling the card because I collected them but I also knew when they emailed me back with a slightly higher offer(I mean slightly) that there wasnt something right. Less than a week later I got offers of $400,$700,$800 and someone who said they would top any other offer on the short-lived mastronet message board. It didnt take me 5 years to think something was up,it took 2 emails,and it was from someone trying to take advantage of me.

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10-15-2008, 05:13 AM

Posted By: Marty Ogelvievery cool video, thanks for sharing.martyOgelvie

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10-15-2008, 05:24 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThanks Jodi- I love to use the semicolon.

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10-15-2008, 05:43 AM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusLet's see. Bruce bought the Mathewson for 40% more than he perceived its value to be at the time of the purchase. And the person he bought it from acquired the card for $1 from some unsuspecting person at a flea market. Who again David did you say took advantage of who?

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10-15-2008, 05:47 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzPlease, Corey, give us (all of us, not just me) a break. They're sitting there bragging about how much they took the poor, non-Concord flying, schoolteacher for. "Chuckle, Chuckle."

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10-15-2008, 06:15 AM

Posted By: bruce DorskindThe Last Lecture- Skidmore Style Much has been written about the physics of hitting a baseball In his never-ending quest to produce a piece of research that would enable him to be considered for a full professorship (perhaps when Al Sharpton becomes President of the University).we assume that Dr. Leftfield, leveraging his Network 54 sign on (murders row), commissioned a selection of his Skidmore Groupies to experiment with swinging a bat. They obviously thought his skull was a ball and they swung away. Thus the damage to his "mind" and the distaste for all things that are RiGHT with America. Of course, physics can unravel a number of mysteries...however, it can not repair a distorted mind . Too bad the students didn't swing a little harder. We could have moved Dr. Leftfield from the classroom to the ancient history books- clearly where he belongs. Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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10-15-2008, 06:26 AM

Posted By: Joe D.David, Unless I am mistaken.... the card was 'worth' around what Bruce paid for it at the time. Bruce just sold it after it appreciated in value (at a later time). In other words - it was a great buy. I am trying to understand how that possibly is taking advantage of someone?

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10-15-2008, 06:34 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCinteresting thread... all i'll add, is that i've actually flown on the Concorde <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-15-2008, 06:48 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzOoohh, Bruces. You guys are soooo clever. (As I told you before (privately, after one of your nasty personal emails), you're just lonely little men, who never became what they really wanted to be, Masters of the Universe, whom you so adore. So you pretend you are Masters of the Collecting Universe, and never let anyone forget what you think you are. So sad.)

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10-15-2008, 06:53 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<> From the Bruces (and I quote), "I knew it would be worth much more." Obviously, the teacher, who serendipitously found the card, did not know what he had. The Bruces did. (And their trait of constantly hounding their mark until they get what they want is so endearing. Definitely something to brag about.)

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10-15-2008, 06:58 AM

Posted By: Joe D."Obviously, the teacher, who serendipitously found the card did not know what he had. The Bruces did." David.... Bruce said he thought it was worth about $1000 (paid $1400). He said he knew it would be worth more.... that is obviously speculation. You are really reaching this time.

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10-15-2008, 06:59 AM

Posted By: D. BerginWell, judging from the fact a family of 4 took a trip to Europe for $1400 I'm guessing this happened quite a long time ago. Aggressive buying tendencies aside.

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10-15-2008, 06:59 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzNo, Joe. Speculation is "I thought it would be worth much more."

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10-15-2008, 07:06 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzLet's see. Hounding the guy 'till he finally breaks down. Offering, not to buy the card, but to pay for his trip to Europe, knowing full well that a teacher would be stretching to take his family to Europe, would have been worrying whether or not he could really afford it, etc. and might very well find the offer to be a relief from that gnawing worry. Turning around a bit later and selling the card for 48 times what they paid, and, finally Bragging about their cleverness. Well done, indeed. (The interesting "collecting" story would have been the teacher telling how he found the card in a book that he bought.)

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10-15-2008, 07:11 AM

Posted By: Joe D."No, Joe. Speculation is "I thought it would be worth much more." No David. As soon as the phrase 'would be' is in there - it is speculation. Unless you are suggesting that Bruce can see the future with certainty.

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10-15-2008, 07:16 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzHe certainly thought he could. He said he "knew." "I knew the sun would come up the next day." Was I speculating?

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10-15-2008, 07:19 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind We appreciate the responses to David's inane commentary. We have a question for the nutty professor Let's say you are at a flee market (you know the place where nutty professors shop for their clothes) and you see a baseball card worth $5000. The antique dealer has a price of $100 on the item Do you buy it or do you say, Mr. Antique Dealer "I am an expert in baseball cards and the truth is that this card is worth $5000 retail. Let me buy it for $4000 so I can make a little profit. Tell us the truth David (if that is possible) Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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10-15-2008, 07:19 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThis is among the silliest debates we've had on this board. And given the shrill nature of the political threads, it might be best just to move on.

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10-15-2008, 07:25 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Barry We agree Time for Dan to give up Bruce

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10-15-2008, 07:27 AM

Posted By: Jim VBBarry, Do you mean this one? <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253F partner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxmk572YYUS%2526i%253D10 %252F10%255F9%255F136v%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_9_136v.gif" alt="SmileyCentral.com" border="0"><img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252F nocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egi f%253Fi%253D10%252F10_9_136v%2526uiv%253D3.0/image.gif"></a>

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10-15-2008, 07:28 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzTake a good look at the Bruces' little story above, Joe. They have created a situation they themselves believe is analogous to the "Boston Garter Matty" caper. Notice the Bruces didn't say "You think perhaps it would be worth $5000, someday," but rather "You know it's worth $5000." The Bruces are telling us, you see, that they never had any doubt the card would be worth much, much more than they paid the poor, unknowing schnook. (But a good family man.) (Ya know what, Bruces? When a cashier gives me back too much change, I always return it.)

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10-15-2008, 07:34 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- that is the discussion I was referring to. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> David- you're really stretching here. Your argument is baseless. At the time Bruce bought the card it was a very fair price. He is only obligated to offer current market value, not what he thinks it may be worth ten years down the road.

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10-15-2008, 07:34 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzLet me just put it this way. If the Bruces were hounding me to sell them an item I was not expert about, I would be very, very careful.

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10-15-2008, 07:36 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzRead the Bruces own analogy, Barry. They wrote it, not me.

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10-15-2008, 07:50 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI see Bruce's analogy, and I have to agree with him. I've sold baseball memorabilia over the years that has increased in value tremendously. But I can't call past customers up and ask them to send some more money for that T206 Cobb they bought from me for $100 in 1990. At the time of the transaction it was a fair price. Likewise, if I'm at a flea market and a dealer offers me a $5000 item for $100, I have no obligation to clue him in. It's every seller's responsibility to do due diligence before putting an item up for sale. And in the case of the school teacher who sold the Boston Garter, he had a few years to do some research and make an educated decision regarding what to accept for it. And Bruce offered him more than a fair price. Sure, a decade later it looks cheap, but everything increases in value over time.

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10-15-2008, 07:50 AM

Posted By: Jim VBI've seen Bruce's video before and find it interesting every time. I see nothing wrong with the transaction in question here. Bruce took a risk. During the five years he tried to buy the card, apparently, no one else was offering the teacher more. He was using his knowledge of the industry to speculate that things would change in the future and the card would increase in value. This is no different than buying a stock, or an antique, or a house. Now, when Bruce went to sell, if the value had plummeted to $50 and he looked for a government bailout...

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10-15-2008, 08:00 AM

Posted By: JayThis is the problem with tenure. Instead of doing what the college is paying him to do, David can sit at the computer arguing with Bruce. Bruce is 100% right on this one. While Bruce may have been convinced in his own mind that the card would be worth more in the future, there was no certainty of this. He took a risk when he bought the card. He held it for years and then was sold it for a profit. Good for him, that's called successful investing.

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10-15-2008, 08:11 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI wish I had read this thread 15 years ago, when I bought my first house. The owner of the house was asking $150,000 for it. I knew that someday it would be worth more, so I paid him half a million. Now I feel like that may have been unnecessary. Thankfully my kids aren't in college yet, so I hope to do a better job of estimating the future value of their education before I start paying their tuition. -Al

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10-15-2008, 08:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAl- I actually thought of the same analogy. Things go up, and they go down...it's a risk. And Bruce took a risk when he paid $1400 for something which at the time offered no guarantee of future appreciation.

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10-15-2008, 08:28 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliHeaven knows, Barry, that I've overpaid for cards that have not yet eclipsed what I paid for them. I wish I was sharp enough to know which cards are going to appreciate in value and which aren't. I don't know that having that knowledge would change anything about what I buy, but it sure would be nice to know. Win some, lose some, I guess. The main point of my sarcasm is that this board has a few members who get beaten up just for being here. Whether or not they ask for it in different ways, I don't think it's always fair. In this case, Bruce didn't even make a post and he got blindsided. Like everyone else, I would love to get to the day where Bruce isn't deliberately trying to get under people's skin with his "we" and his "whilst." Unlike everyone else, however, if I were in his shoes, I'd be doing the same thing. -Al

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10-15-2008, 08:35 AM

Posted By: D. BerginDamn, I wish I had back that unopened case of 1984 Topps Football I sold for $400 or that stack of Michael Jordan rookies I sold for 20 bucks a pop. Then again I sure am glad I sold those monster lots of 1987 Topps Mike Greenwell rookie cards I had for a buck a piece while I had the chance. LOL!!!

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10-15-2008, 08:40 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzFrom a contemporaneous thread on this very board, directed to the Bruces: <<Oh and by the way, I have recently picked up a 1914 Terrapin Pennant which I believe is on your so called toughest want list (which is another joke) but I am not going to waste my time as I know you won't pay for it. If you would like a scan and price, email me privately. Oh that's right, I blocked you, we, all yuz, from emailing me because you are so nice and friendly and fair to deal with. Pound Pavement.>> << ...he is impossible to get anything out of. Yet he used to email me quartly or monthly asking if I have anything he would be interested in. Well it works both ways, scratch my back and I will scratch yours. I got tired of the emails and not being able to get anything out of him...>>

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10-15-2008, 08:47 AM

Posted By: SteveGreat vid Bruce. Not what I expected though. Although we are succesful in snaring very hot mates... I think sportscard collecting attracts more uglies than any other hobby -not excluding myself, of course. wondering What percentage of the population is unattractive? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> added Smiley

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10-15-2008, 08:53 AM

Posted By: barrysloateHow many people out there are good looking? Have you ever been to the motor vehicles bureau? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-15-2008, 08:55 AM

Posted By: TFergI thought the video was neat, the Bruces have some nice stuff. Nothing seems to provoke traffic like the Bruces' and the pundit professor.

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10-15-2008, 09:10 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinThanks for sharing! Rich

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10-15-2008, 09:34 AM

Posted By: boxingcardman50% of the population is in the bottom half of the looks category. 90% of the population is worse looking than the top 10%. None of which applies to Mickey Rivers: "Pitching is 80% of the game. The other half is hitting and fielding." -- Mickey Rivers, baseball player Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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10-15-2008, 10:17 AM

Posted By: E, DanielI can see how David has chosen to interpet Bruce's conquest story. It's viewed through a nose afoul with previous Bruce commentary and views David finds repugnant. And I can also see how near everyone else has chosen to read the story fresh and free of those odors. Willing in the recent light of good/informative/interesting threads started by Bruce to cut him some slack based on better behaviour. WANTING him to be different and trying to encourage positive change through positive reinforcement. Now throw this video/story into the middle of months/years of Bruce's more obnoxious rants and opinions reviled by nearly all who have rallied to him in this post, and I have the feeling his story would not be so well recieved. Ah well, if you know a pig long enough - even you will eventually be tempted to stick lipstick on it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. Daniel

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10-15-2008, 10:35 AM

Posted By: jay wolt"And Bruce offered him more than a fair price. Sure, a decade later it looks cheap, but everything increases in value over time" Barry, not everything. As I have tons of late 1980's baseball cards that have little or no value, 20 years later. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> With that said, say the Bruces transaction of $1400 turned out to be way overpriced and a decade later he sold the Boston Garter for half that amount. Would he contact the seller and demand some money back? Though it would have been a gracious gesture for the Bruces to send the buyer a nice gift or a few $$$ after his windfall sale. I've done that on a few occasions where I did well on the resale end. Makes me sleep better at night and ya can't have enough good karma

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10-15-2008, 12:27 PM

Posted By: Ricky YI've seen this video before.."we" never get tired of seeing it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Love to see a close up of that Johnson&Johnson advertising sign. I don't think I've ever seen that sign before. Don't see much wrong with the said transaction either...the teacher could have always contacted other collectors and or dealers to gauge its value before parting with it. Pre internet days..we all had to do our own reserach manually. Ricky Y

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10-15-2008, 12:42 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta"Barry We agree Time for Dan to give up Bruce" WTF?

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10-15-2008, 12:44 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittDavid's inquisition..............

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10-15-2008, 02:24 PM

Posted By: Mark EvansAlthough I suspect that Bruce and I are very different -- from writing style to politics to views on criminal sentencing (death penalty for drug dealers?) -- I don't think he did anything wrong in purchasing the card and, beyond that, believe he makes a valuable contribution to the Board. But, I think he and others should cease the personal attacks. Otherwise, we might as well get back to politics. At least then those of us who are academically challenged might learn something about the economic crisis. Mark

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10-15-2008, 02:31 PM

Posted By: Frank Wakefield So when did Bruce start with this "WE" stuff???? In the video above he says "I" bunches of times. I didn't catch one "WE". So if he wasn't "WEing" then, when did it start? And why??

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10-15-2008, 02:48 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI don't think we should worry about that anymore personally...it is definitely trolling behavior and Bruce thrives on that kind of attention.

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10-15-2008, 03:47 PM

Posted By: JimB"This is the problem with tenure." Hey, no need to attack tenure or professors in general. Now I need to get back to work. Carry on guys. JimB P.S. Count me in the camp that does not think Bruce did anything wrong at all in this case.

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10-15-2008, 08:07 PM

Posted By: howardThat "poor, ignorant school teacher" obviously knew he had something valuable before Bruce ever contacted him. Otherwise the article through which Bruce found out about the card would never have been written.

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10-15-2008, 08:47 PM

Posted By: TimA few things. #1 - If I had something I was ignorant about and someone kept after me for months to sell it to them, I have had ample time to consult other parties about its worth before I sell it. #2 - If the teacher only broke down at a time of need (the trip abroad) then he considered the trip for his family of equal value to the card. #3 - I have heard so many times here and on other boards when people request a value of a card that it's only worth what you are willing to pay for it or someone is willing to buy it for at the time of sale. #4 - Bruce did nothing deceitful as far as we know in convincing the seller that his card was worth less than what he sold it for. #5 - Some people that have posted in this thread love to interject negativity as a means of inciting controversy. Thus allowing them what they think is the opportunity to flex their intellectual muscle. When in reality it makes them look very small minded regardless of their institutional stature. #6 – Regardless of how many degrees you may have, it may serve you well to read Robert Fulghums’ “All I really Needed To Know I Learned In Kindergarten.” Bruce I don’t know you and haven’t been a board member long enough to see the many sides of your personalities I have heard much about. But I appreciate your many insightful recent posts and ability to create dialog whether for or against your opinions in this forum.

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10-15-2008, 08:48 PM

Posted By: paulstratton"I love the smell of napalm in the morning." ...it smells like victory.

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10-15-2008, 08:52 PM

Posted By: Mark HI traded a 1964 Topps Rose in EXMT for 30 brand new Tony Gwynn rookies, because I knew he'd be worth more. I didn't sell 50 Hershiser rookies at $18 each because I knew he'd be worth more. Which story do you think I tell more often?

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10-16-2008, 12:45 AM

Posted By: MillerhouseI'm a long-time lurker here, seldom a writer and a long-time friend of the Dorskinds. On the topic of the Matty Boston Garter, however, I can offer an extremely unique perspective and can't resist doing so, having known the schoolteacher long before the Bruces learned that he had the card. The schoolteacher did, indeed, buy the card at a central Pennsylvania flea market for a song, not having any idea what it was, though recognizing that it was a gorgeous, interesting card-like thing. Indeed, at the time he bought it, in the mid- to late-1970s, few people in what was then the hobby had ever seen a Boston Garter, much less a Matty. He showed it to me after purchasing it, seeking information; the best I could offer was the American Card Catalog listing. He did his best to research the card, found out what he could and published the article that brought it to the Bruces' attention. Throughout my discussions with the schoolteacher, I made it perfectly clear to him that I'd love to acquire the card and would be willing to pay him whatever it took should he ever decide to part with it. I did not, however, hound him about it, but let him know, whenever I saw him, that I remained interested and would love to hear from him should he decide to part with it. In or around the time that the schoolteacher found the Matty, I first met the Bruces at one of the early Philly shows. Kindred spirits in collecting interests, the Bruces and I remained in contact and became friendly after I moved to New York in 1978. To know the Bruces is to be contacted by the Bruces periodically by phone to chat about old cards, and the Matty Boston Garter (and Boston Garter cards generally) were a somewhat frequent topic. One late spring/early summer, in the mid-1980s, during one of my phone chats with the Bruces, I casually mentioned that I was about to leave the country for a three-week golfing trip to Scotland. That was when the Bruces pounced, making the offer that the schoolteacher, unable to contact me, accepted. Upon learning of his acquisition in another phone chat after my returning, I was, of course, sickened. Had the schoolteacher been able to contact me, I would have offered twice what the Bruces paid. While no one, at that time, would have considered spending five figures for the card, it was clear to me, then, that the card was extremely rare. Few cards from that set had surfaced at all within the intervening ten years from the schoolteacher finding it (certainly no Matty). And it was perfectly clear to me, at the time, that it was worth far more than what the Bruces paid for it. So, did the schoolteacher schnooker the flea market dealer in the first place? Not at all. Neither had any idea what the card was when the transaction occurred. Did the Bruces schnooker the schoolteacher? Draw you own conclusions. He certainly paid less than the market would have borne. But the schoolteacher knew what he had by then. He just chose a bad means for parting with it. I can, however, say a couple of things for sure. Had the schoolteacher waited for my return from Scotland to sell it, it would have sold for substantially more, and it would not have been resold for a killing. I'd still have it. Best regards to all, Dan

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10-16-2008, 01:14 AM

Posted By: randnow the last post was super. what this post was all about.

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10-16-2008, 02:06 AM

Posted By: Denny WalshI am so relieved.... In my weed smoking days I borrowed my older brothers car(Yeah Right <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) and took a trip to florida from Long Island. While we were passing through the said P State, I pulled over on the side of the road to go potty. I felt convicted about going on some dude's front lawn, so I knock on the closest houses door. The gentleman invited me in without a problem to use his can. The Only thing is, I was 14 years old at the time, so my friend Gallagher was driving... Which is why I was reading a book that my brother left underneath the front passengers side seat. Anyways, when I was done with my business at the ahmish dude's house, I bolted and left my big bro's book in his bathroom. 3 weeks later when we returned, I really thought my brother had gone stupid on me, He wanted to know where His book was? (Not a word about his car. Huh!) My Uncle's name is Christy and he wanted to know what I did with his Postcard? Whhaat? I had know idea what he was talking about, its been 30 someodd years now! Thanks to you guys.... My mind is Now set at ease Well, now I just need to find out from these guys called Bruces(Are they twins? I now that George Foreman named all 5 of his Sons George, is it something like that?) who he sold the card to and get it back for my big bro! Man will he be shocked, Don't ya think? Life's Grand, Denny Walsh

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10-16-2008, 02:58 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Dan is one of the hobby's most knowledgeable collectors. Whilst generally under the radar he has been collecting ultra rare pre World War I baseball cards for than 30 years. His collection is vast in scope and deep in quality. He is brilliant and very successful patent attorney and is far more understated than we. But Dan is a killer competitor. We recall bidding head to head for a Four Base Hits into the wee small hours of the morning. The late Don Flannagan, working for Wolfers at the time, informed each of us who the competition was. Dan won. Dan neglected to tell you that he made a find of 6 Boston Garter posters while on a business trip to Atlanta. He bought them in barn for "a song" and sold one to us a week later for $20,000. Another great Dan find is the reason why we have two Boston Cigar Makers pins (ultra rare) in our collection. When we would cross each other's paths at card shows, Dan brought along his wife and she helped spot opportunities that we missed. Sometimes even we have trouble being in two show booths at the same time. We love to talk cards with Dan and generally have lunch once a quarter. We rarely talk about money or value although we have shared some great stories about our finds. Dan grew up in a small town in West Virginia. But he hass the killer instincts, albeit in a quiet way , of a Marine General. We hope he shares the story about the unbelievable collection which belong to a neighbor. It too, slipped away. As for Matty, we always regret selling it (even if we received a million dollars)- but it was a bad time in our life. Fortunately we still have an uncut sheet of Boston Garters and a number of other singles= as well as an array of store advertising. For those of you who want to truly learn about the early history of baseball cards, and here stories about incredible finds, there is no better source than Dan All the best Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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10-16-2008, 05:06 AM

Posted By: randhello dan, please share some great stories

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10-16-2008, 05:56 AM

Posted By: barrysloateGreat story Dan and Bruce. I didn't know that part of it. Hey Dan, hope you are well, and you should post more often. You know more about vintage baseball cards than just about anyone around.

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10-16-2008, 06:18 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzThank you very much, Dan, for the interesting and quite revealing story. None of us here--myself included--had any idea when the Bruces purchase took place, and therefore had not a clue as to what the "fair market value" of the card was. But, notwithstanding, many saw fit to jump to the Bruces defense, claiming that they paid market value. We now know that is not true: "Did the Bruces schnooker the schoolteacher? Draw you own conclusions. He certainly paid less than the market would have borne.' (Emphasis added.)

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10-16-2008, 06:29 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanVery entertaining video...and nice accompanying story to go with it. This hobby is filled...even littered...with cutthroat, type A personalities...looking to take advantage of those less knowledgable...with less $$$...with the goal of obtaining cards or memorabilia for a less than market price. This is the way the hobby has always been...and always will be! In fact...as prices have fluctuated in the almost 30 years I've been collecting...this has remained a constant. Let's accept this fact...as sad as it may be...and move on.

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10-16-2008, 06:39 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffDavid, One person stating they would have been willing to pay more for an item does not mean they are suddenly the "market." Instead of continually slamming Bruce (or Jeff or Jim, etc., etc.) why not do some actual research and give us some sales records of Boston Garter cards that sold in that time period and maybe we can get an idea of what the "market" could or should have been for this card. Even if you only find records of commons that sold, we can probably figure out a reasonable price for this card based on that. Bruce paid less than Dan would have paid, but did he pay more than most others would have? How can we know? He said he thought it was worth $1,000 and he paid $1,400. Would you have paid more than $1,400? You can't just assume that every single person willing to pay more was going to know about and have access to the seller and his card. It wasn't an auction. I have other thoughts on this but as I am typing I just realized that you have now extracted posts from me that have come to the defense of both Bruce Dorskind and Jim Crandell. Look what you've done to me!!! -Ryan

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10-16-2008, 06:44 AM

Posted By: bruce DorskindOnce again the Nutty Professor adds his silly commentary He twists words and pontificates with the best of them We simply offered the" poor lonely teacher "the cost of the trip. We were creative- something a second rater physicist could never grasp...but then again he earned his undergraduate degree at a second rate university. It was, as everyone knows, the teacher's choice to accept or not accept our offer. We had knowledge of Dan's interest but certainly he was smart enough not share his offer with us or we would have "certainly attempted to top it. Yes, we knew Dan was traveling and it was a chance to beat him to punch...and why not...we and Dan are friends but we certainly compete for cards David is simply jealous that he did not make the deal. He will rant and rave until the cows come home. But alas - with all that Jazz up a Skidmore he is singing the wrong tune He knows it, the world knows it...and we expect that the University will realize how many countless hours he wastes attacking us on the web rather than doing his work. Perhaps, they will revoke his tenure... that would be even more satisfying than finding another Matthewson Boston Garter. Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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10-16-2008, 06:54 AM

Posted By: jay wolt"and we expect that the University will realize how many countless hours he wastes attacking us on the web rather than doing his work. Perhaps, they will revoke his tenure... that would be even more satisfying than finding another Matthewson Boston Garter" Just cause a guy disagrees with you you would enjoy if he got fired over it? Man, that's cold!

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10-16-2008, 07:12 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzPeter, the only one here--other than the Bruces--familiar with the card at the time says, not only that he would have paid more, but that the Bruces paid "less than the market would have borne." I'm willing to bow to Dan's expertise. And Bruces, I don't collect cards, and I don't collect NY Giant memorabilia. So I'm hardly jealous. (And it doesn't take much time at all to point out who and what you really are.)

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10-16-2008, 07:13 AM

Posted By: Dan Bretta"Just cause a guy disagrees with you you would enjoy if he got fired over it? Man, that's cold!" And ironic....but perhaps the irony was intended?

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10-16-2008, 07:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateDavid- you're going too far with this. Bruce made an offer, Dan would have made a better offer. So what? Every time I participate in an auction and find myself outbid, does that suggest I am trying to cheat the auction house?

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10-16-2008, 07:18 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzBarry--what part of Dan's statement that the Bruces paid less than market value don't you understand? It's not that they paid less than Dan would have, but that they used a cheap trick to entice their mark into selling for less than a fair price. (I consider market value to be a fair price.) And yes, loads of others do it, too. But it's really nothing to brag about in a made-for-collectors video. As I said before, just be careful when dealing with the Bruces. Finis.

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10-16-2008, 07:27 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce and Dan both admitted that not only did they not know the true value of the card, they weren't even sure what it was. And given the time frame, there was no source material available to look it up. Let's say the card would have sold at the time for $2500 in an auction, and Bruce offered his $1400 for it. I don't think it's entirely unfair. I've made offers for less than market value, it's just business. I understand Dan would have paid more, but that doesn't make Bruce's offer unethical.

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10-16-2008, 07:31 AM

Posted By: randi dont know who you are, you have added ZERO to my honest attempt for an interesting read. you want to bash bruce or someone else, start you own thread. this is bullsh!!! because i asked the question, we got a great video, an amazing response from someone that knew the story well, and possibly some more good stuff. instead i have to sift through a bunch of stupid posts responding to you. have some class, manners, and move on.

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10-16-2008, 07:38 AM

Posted By: PC"And Bruces, I don't collect cards" Not that we didn't figure it out already, but that is confirmation of trolling.

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10-16-2008, 07:43 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzHardly. I collect vintage NY Yankee memorabilia with an emphasis on the period 1903-1927. I have always been willing to freely share both my expertise in that area, and--unlike the Bruces--photos of items in my collection, as a look to the memorabilia side of this board will show. Like many memorabilia collectors, I keep an eye on this side of the board, too, as there is a bit of an overlap. For example, is this a card? <img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/1903nyasportinglife.jpg"> And rand, threads dont "belong" to their creators. Further, the textbook definition of "trolling" would be satisfied by any one of a large number of the Bruces' deliberately provocative threads.

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10-16-2008, 07:50 AM

Posted By: randDavid, add something to MY thread or get lost, at the moment no one has any respect for you here. ps.. very neat peice, thx for showing it

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10-16-2008, 07:51 AM

Posted By: Jim VBDavid, "Ownership"? No. But from the forum rules that we have all agreed to: <<We also ask that members do not "hijack" the threads of other members as this does a disservice to those interested in that particular subject matter and is especially discourteous to the original author of that thread. >>

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10-16-2008, 07:56 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzYou're right, Jim. I certainly never meant to hijack the thread. I felt I was defending my (admittedly unpopular) point of view. So I'll end that right here.

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10-16-2008, 08:05 AM

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm"Sometimes even we have trouble being in two show booths at the same time." See, Bruce has a sense of humor! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-16-2008, 08:08 AM

Posted By: john/z28jd If Dan really would've paid more for the card why at no point before that in all those years did he even make an offer for it? If he did make an offer then why would the teacher be shocked at an offer half as much as he would be willing to spend.....unless of course Dan never made a decent offer and he too was trying to get the card from him for cheaper than it was worth. His story doesnt add up,sounds like he was willing to supposedly put one over on the teacher too but didnt get his chance to and then afterwards says he would've offered twice as much. I can say I would've offered him $5k if I knew about the card now,doesnt mean its true just because I write it long after it was even possible.If I was really willing to pay a certain amount for a card I really wanted then I would make that offer at some point So now we know this person knew they had something good and more than one person really wanted it from them,sounds like if they sold it for a lower amount then they could've got they have no one to blame but themselves. Im sure the Bruce's didnt surround him and threaten him to sell the card for vacation money so he easily could've waited till he got back. He's a teacher,Im sure he was smart enough to know to bring enough money with him on vacation beforehand and not go on vacation till he had that money.

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10-16-2008, 09:22 AM

Posted By: leon"And rand, threads dont "belong" to their creators." I will concur with what Jim said above.....the creator of the thread does own the thread, in essence. I support your right to express your opinions, per the forum rules, but you might be careful about telling folks what belongs to them on this forum.....take care

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10-16-2008, 09:31 AM

Posted By: JimBBoston Garters are so scarce that there is not an established market value today, in the internet age of increased access to information and multiple public auctions. What is the market value of a Matty BG today? Nobody knows! $1400 was a hell of a lot of money for a baseball card in 1978! I think T206 Wagners were going for around 3k then. Bruce does not seem like he was cheating the guy. And the guy knew what he had. He had at least two serious buyers expressing interest for years. When the right offer came at the right time, he sold it. No crime was committed. Nothing unethical happened. David, I think you have other issues with Bruce and you are displacing your anger about that onto this situation. There is my pop-psychology analysis of this situation. JimB P.S. Let's all lay off the attacks on professors as a general category. Some of the greatest people I know are professors. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Thankfully we have great educators in this country who are willing to work for a small fraction of what they can make in the business world or private sector in order to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. It is not only professors who "waste" their time on baseball card websites.

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10-16-2008, 09:43 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWhat's the under/over on how many times David has been divorced?

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10-16-2008, 10:14 AM

Posted By: Millerhouse"If Dan really would've paid more for the card why at no point before that in all those years did he even make an offer for it? If he did make an offer then why would the teacher be shocked at an offer half as much as he would be willing to spend.....unless of course Dan never made a decent offer and he too was trying to get the card from him for cheaper than it was worth. His story doesnt add up,sounds like he was willing to supposedly put one over on the teacher too but didnt get his chance to and then afterwards says he would've offered twice as much." With all due respect, comments like these are the reason that I find it much more pleasant to read and not participate by posting. How dare you, whoever you are, not knowing me, suggest that I was trying to "put one over on the teacher?" The fact is that the fellow had become a friend of mine and had expressed no interest in parting with the card. I had made it perfectly clear to him that, should he ever change his mind, I'd be more than interested in buying it. To me, however, there are more important things in life than pestering a friend for a baseball card. (The Bruces clearly had a much different relationship with him.) Also, before I sign off, one other post suggested doing some research into the fair market value of this set of Boston Garters in the mid-'80s. Good luck. There might have been one sold by then, to my knowledge, and that through Ted Hake's pin and memorabilia auction. This set is still so rare that I'm not convinced that individual copies of all sixteen cards have yet surfaced. (A number have appeared that have been torn apart from multi-card sheets, such as the sheet owned by the Bruces, but I doubt that singly issued copies, such as the Bruces' former Matty, have been located for all sixteen. I only have two: Collins and Lajoie.) Dan

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10-16-2008, 10:39 AM

Posted By: David Atkatz<<What's the under/over on how many times David has been divorced?>> You have a reason to get this personal, Jeff, or are you just a complete schmuck? (For those counting, this is only the second time I've called someone a name. And the first time in Yiddish.)

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10-16-2008, 10:51 AM

Posted By: JerryWhen a Person Constantly tells you he's not interested in selling a certain card, I don't think it's Proper or benefitual to start throwing offers out to him. Just let him know your interested and would like a shot at it if he decides to sell it. Others may think different.

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10-16-2008, 10:51 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDavid, that's some ironically thin skin you have there. I guess by your answer I'll take the over on whatever number you want to throw out.

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10-16-2008, 10:52 AM

Posted By: David AtkatzI see it's the latter, Jeff.

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10-16-2008, 10:57 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDavid, I guess it's better for your wife(s) and the dog that you get your anger out here.

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10-16-2008, 11:17 AM

Posted By: JimBJerry, We don't know what the seller of the BG Matty said to Bruce. I have pursued cards from an original find in a similar way. There was one card in a find from a few years ago that I particularly wanted. I made a fair market offer on the card. The seller said he was not ready to sell at the time but I could feel free to check in periodically. I did check in a couple of times per year. I always prefaced them with the qualification that if I was bothering him at all, I would stop. He always assured me that was not the case. After several years, he eventually decided to sell the card. I believe(d) I actually paid over fair market value for the card at the time. I don't see anything wrong with enthusiastic pursuit of rare cards if it is done with tact and respect. Jim

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10-16-2008, 11:24 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI'm tempted here to give Jeff some material for his radio show tonight. edited: whoops..forgot the smiley.

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10-16-2008, 11:43 AM

Posted By: Scott LevyI don't even understand what the argument against Bruce would be here? In the 1970s $1400 was an absolute TON of money for any baseball card. Sure the card sold for a lot more, but any card purchased at that time would be worth much more today. My dad purchased a T206 Cobb in the mid 1980's which we just sold for almost 20x the purchase price, was that unethical? Of course not, it is just a reflection of how prices of vintage cards have appreciated over time. At the time of Bruce's purchase there was no established market for a card such as that. Bruce offered a price and it was eventually accepted by the seller. If today Bruce purchased that card for $1400 I would at least understand the moral argument....but I don't see even a shred of impropriety here. Regards, Scott

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10-16-2008, 11:56 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeI agree, I am not a Bruces fan but I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he did here. At worst, maybe they could have been annoying at trying to get the Matty but we don't even know that. I am going to say the Bruces are in the clear here and did nothing wrong at all. Great card Bruce, Dan.

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10-16-2008, 12:04 PM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusDavid, if nothing else you've managed to generate the greatest outpouring of support for Bruce he has ever garnered on this board. I'm tempted to invite him to that lunch I owe Barry for some bet he won. In his giddy mood, he might treat us both.

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10-16-2008, 12:06 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittwhen you say 'we' don't know that, do you mean there's more than one of you in the thread?

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10-16-2008, 12:11 PM

Posted By: Mark EvansThanks, David, for sharing your card/photo. Pretty neat. But, enough acrimony already, from everyone. I hate to sound like a 5th grade school marm (so I probably won't continue to beat this dead horse), but who needs it? Mark

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10-16-2008, 12:13 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce is welcome to join us. May I make a suggestion? Does everyone still need to call Bruce "the Bruces?" Haven't his recent posts moved him up a notch in the pecking order? Unless he comes forward and says he prefers to be recognized in the plural, I suggest we use "Bruce." Just a suggestion.

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10-16-2008, 12:15 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeI used both Barry, because I wasn't sure which he prefers. Mark, I have no idea what that word means. Acriminy?

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10-16-2008, 12:16 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanHey, if Bruce is paying count me in! Edited to add: Dan, I just laughed out loud at your last post.

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10-16-2008, 12:22 PM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieBarry, can we call him 'The Bruce' ala Braveheart!

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10-16-2008, 12:23 PM

Posted By: randHA HA HA HA HA your posts are hilarious lately, the sarcasm is superb and i'll take the over. now jeff, you need to share a great find in your collecting years... a nice addition to OUR thread (mine & davids)

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10-16-2008, 12:26 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJeff- actually Corey's paying, but we should be eating in Manhattan, so maybe we can all get together.

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10-16-2008, 12:29 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRand, I have no finds -- to dealers that are looking to sell their cards at inflated prices I AM the find.

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10-16-2008, 12:37 PM

Posted By: Rob D.My dad purchased a T206 Cobb in the mid 1980's which we just sold for almost 20x the purchase price, was that unethical? Of course not, it is just a reflection of how prices of vintage cards have appreciated over time. In this case, I find it highly unethical. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-16-2008, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Scott LevyYes Rob I thought you might think so <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Thanks for the deal -SGL

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10-16-2008, 01:04 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThis thread better not turn into another New York Dinner Thread (tm).

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10-16-2008, 01:17 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblitthas that much server space left.............

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10-16-2008, 01:20 PM

Posted By: robert aOf course there's nothing wrong with making a good investment. In fact, I like to celebrate all my good investments with a youtube video. Rob

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10-16-2008, 01:56 PM

Posted By: Jeff Priznersorry for the O/T... but I really like the w601!

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10-18-2008, 04:43 PM

Posted By: Denny WalshI Really Thought You Guys Cared! I just want to know where to get my Brothers Card Back From!? All this bickering and Not One Soul Is Willing to help Out an Old Alterboy..... Come on Bruce, who's got my big bro's card? Life's Grand, Denny Walsh