OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>That's right. The Tigers getting Miguel Cabrera and Dontrell WIllis makes this one of baseballs greatest teams ever .Watch the run production this year, it will be sick .The year maybe over for ALL TEAMS!!!!!....thank the good LORD for my seats....10 behind 1st base on the aisle.<br /><br />the team<br /><br />1st base Carlos Guillen<br />2nd base Placido Polonco<br />ss Edgar Renteria<br />3rd base Miguel Cabrera<br />DH Gary Sheffield<br />r-field Magglio Ordonez<br />c-field Curtis Grandersom<br />l-field Jacque Jones<br />catcher Ivan Rodriguez<br /><br />starters -J.Verlander-j.bonderman-D.Willis-K.ROgers-N.Robertson<br /><br />this is SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK !!! GO TIGERS<br /><br />edited over excitement of spelling.....yeaaaahhhhhhh!!!!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Not many American kids playing ML ball anymore.

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>The Tigers got Miggy Cabrera? HOLY SH*T. Likely the best young hitter in baseball. He's gonna explode in that lineup with such great protection.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Did the Tigers get Willis and Cabrera today? Wow, that's a big deal.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>also ,CHiSOx mgr Ozzie Guillen stated he'd seen Cabrera. He is eating the right things working out and has never seen him look better .This really is a very intimidating lineup....wowie !

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So Dan, who did the Tigers give up to get them?

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>Easily a top 3 lineup in baseball, probably #1 assuming they gel early on. I think the batting order will look something like this:<br /><br />1. Curtis Granderson<br />2. Placido Polanco<br />3. Magglio Ordonez<br />4. Miguel Cabrera<br />5. Gary Sheffield<br />6. Carlos Guillen<br />7. Edgar Renteria<br />8. Ivan Rodriguez<br />9. Marcus Thames/Jacque Jones/Brandon Inge<br /><br /><br />Boy is that an intimidating lineup. And so well rounded. The starting rotation is great too. You have every reason to be pumped for the season, Dan. They are gonna be real tough to beat.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Giving up Maybin, A.Miller and 4 other prospects is a stiff price...but worth it IMO. The whole lineup can rake! Let's hope the pitching stays healthy.

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Posted By: <b>Seth B.</b><p>Ben, being a Braves fan, I think if Renteria is healthy, you gotta bat him second over Polanco!

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Posted By: <b>jerms</b><p>when the red sox get johan--they will be the team to beat

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That is a pretty wicked line up.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I know who "pudge" is... <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The top two prospects the Tigers gave up have a lot of potential -- but how can they possibly measure up to Cabrera and Willis? Great trade for the Tigers.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>if the tigers can sign MCAB to a long term contract i'd say it's a great deal for the tigers. seems like the marlins wanted to dump dontrelle's salary also. angels/dodgers must be pissed as they probably could've offered better deals/prospects.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>QUan....the Leyland and DOmbrowski connection had alot to do with it. The DOdgers or Angels didnt have the prospects as the Tigers. Maybin was ranked the #1 player. They say he has the all the Bonds tools w/o the roids. You should see him run.Seriously, he has an extra gear with arms flailing all over the place. He will steal 50 and hit over 30 hr's....just not sure what average he will hit. Miller 98-100mph lefty. BArry, they gave 4 other prospects as well.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>it sounds like you are excited and a Tiger's fan, congrats on the great trade.<br /><br />However, based on this statment: "The Tigers getting Miguel Cabrera and Dontrell WIllis makes this one of baseballs greatest teams ever" ... if you really mean that, don't blame me for thinking you're a fool. But instead of thinking that, I'll just think you are just excited and a fan. <br /><br />P.S. they won't win 100 games. wanna make a wager on that? cmoking@yahoo.com

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>While I do think the Tigers are top 3, I don't think their run production will be #1 next year - IMHO.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>yea maybin is REALLY good...maybe not a superstar prospect like a couple others but miller is not considered an elite pitching prospect like kershaw in la or joba/bucholz. i think the dodgers refusal to trade kemp/kershaw broke that deal and marlins wanted maybin instead of an if like kendrick or wood made the tigers the lucky sob <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>. i thought the angels could've gotten it done and was excited to see cabrera in anaheim...oh well <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />will be fun to see cleve/detroit/boston/ny mixing it up next year.

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Posted By: <b>Jimi</b><p>Ok, so what's the Top 3 teams now? I vote these in no particular order:<br /><br />1) Tigers<br />2) Red Sox<br />3) Indians<br /><br />Red Sox will be scary with Santana. The Tribe is not doing much shopping this winter....because they don't have to. The scary part about the Tribe is that they have an abundance of starting pitching available for trade. Gee, what a horrible problem that must be!<br><br>Jimi

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Posted By: <b>Jimi</b><p>.....notice no National League team in my top 3. <br><br>Jimi

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Two thoughts: 1) The Sox with Johan is the best team in baseball; 2) the Dodgers do have the prospects: Loney, Kemp, Kershaw, Billingsley, etc.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Willis doesnt make us the best , the overall will and your bet is on.Wrong choice of words.SInce you didnt put the line-up-up, here goes.<br /><br />Granderson 302 -38 doubles-23triples-23hr's-26 stolen bases. Ordonez 363 and won the batting title(both leagues).GUillen- last 4 yrs -318-320-320-296. Cabrera 320 plus 4 straight yrs 110+rbis and Polonco 341 and NO ERRORS at2b, I believe no errors in over 180 games.ANothe year of Gold GLove for Rodriguez hit 281 , still lifetime is over 300 and hit 330 over 3 yrs different.Renteria 332 another all star,Sheffield 330 best year and will rebound off last years injury.NA JAcque Jones best year was 304.<br /><br />ROgers- Verlandrer and WIllis have been 20 game winners .Bonderman despite an off year still throws 95 and then RObertson is fair.<br /><br />NEXT

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>the Tigers were the Top run producers in both leagues last year .SO now add Renteria and Cabrera over Inge and Thames/Monroe ?<br /><br />another bet sounds like to me.<br /><br />this is an ultimate line up.MAtter of fact, I think that 8 of 9 have been an allstar.4 won g-gloves last year. FIve of the 9 did hit over 300.ANd 4-5 hit over 320.<br /><br />NEXT

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>it all starts with pitching and boston will be sick good if they get johan! channelling john buccigross...johan/beckett is to boston what lennon/mccartney was to the beatles???<br /><br />detroit's pitching:<br />verlander...Ace and hella good<br />bonderman...solid 2-3<br />Willis...declining stats and will take further hit facing AL hitting<br />Rogers...isn't he 60 and due for a decline?<br />Robertson...don't know much about him but stat's average and typical 5th starter<br /><br />...might not matter much with that offense!!!<br /><br /><br />yes yes finally a bet on n54! i know u guys like multiples or collect identical poses so i propose u each buy a graded card (red cobb sgc40 polar bear?) for the bet and the winner at the end collect both! certainly better than a mutual fund <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>I do agree with you on Santana and the SOx.TIgers will rest assure make the playoffs and out hit everyone. The SOx WILL NOT have the greatest hitting lineup ever....the Tigers have a real possibility of having the greatest hitters on a team at one time ever.<br /><br />That proposal sounds good to me, Quan.....but I propose you to slash your prices and we will be good !

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Dan, I can see you are really excited, and you should be! I was just razzing you and having some fun. The Tigers won't be a lock, but they surely will be up there with the Yankees and Red Sox as favorites to win the whole thing.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>you are an EBAY trader and Iam a barbs trader, it's all good !

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>on paper tigers?

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Just imagine the Red Sox after they get Santana <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Alan U</b><p>Better hope Cabrera doesn't weigh 400 lbs. when he comes to spring training

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>see for yourself and then add 320 and 332 to the lineup

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>The Cabrera pickup is huge, and the Tigers will likely be amazing, but in terms of a "Starting 8" the team to beat is still the '76 Reds.<br /><br />They had only average pitching, but won the Division by 10 games, and proceeded to sweep both the LCS and World Series. They had 4 players with Hall of Fame Careers. 7 of the 8 starters made the '76 All Star Team, with only Gold Glove Centerfielder Cesar Geronimo failing to make the squad.<br /><br />The '76 Reds led the league in ALL of the following categories...<br /><br />Runs<br />Hits<br />Doubles <br />Triples<br />Home Runs<br />Walks<br />Batting Avg.<br />On-Base %<br />Slugging %<br />Fielding Avg.<br /><br />No other team has ever come close to accomplishing this. <br /><br />Here is how I see the comparison...<br /><br />1B Perez over Guillen<br />2B Morgan over Polanco<br />SS Concepcion/Renteria... tough one... call it a tie<br />3B Rose over Cabrera<br />LF Foster over Jones<br />CF Granderson over Geronimo<br />RF Ordonez over Griffey<br />C Bench over Rodriguez<br /><br />Some of these are very close, but I believe the '08 Tigers are superior at only 2 of the 8 positions. Does anyone disagree? Please be kind, as we Reds fans must often live in the past...<br />

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I just looked up the '76 Reds, Mark. That was some serious dominance. They also destroyed the competition in the post-season, including a sweep of my Yankees. I think their offense was better than the current Tigers although I would take Miggy over Rose. BTW, Did you know their hitters also led in Ks? Goes to show how that stat can be misleading. <br /><br />Dan, Rogers and Verlander never when twenty in a season although I suspect Verlander will next year. <br /><br />And don't count out the Yankees as the top lineup, folks. They scored almost 1,000 runs this past season.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>One fo baseballs greatest teams ever? <br /><br />Come on - they haven't even won anything yet - they didn't even make the playoffs last year.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>As a yanks fan, I am going to be the first in line at the humble pie eating contest. With this move, the tigers become on of the more powerful and age balanced teams in recent history. Their offense will be amazing, if the pitching stays healthy, they will be VERY difficult. Depending what the sox give up for Santana, they could be a team for the history books, dual aces in the rotation, and young to boot has given any die hard yankee fan a twitch in their eye. <br /><br />I don't think that there is a move, short of giving up a box of balls for Haren, and a fungo bat for a decent first baseman, that will help the yanks. Perhaps finding the witch who took all of Damon's hitting abilities and getting her to reverse the spell and give him a throwing arm is a place to start.<br /><br />Crap.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>This looks like a great trade. I really got tired of Inge's at bats. I just hope they don't try to put Cabrero in left field and leave Inge at third as writer Tom Gage implied in todays paper. <br /><br />Joe <br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>&lt;&lt;ROgers- Verlandrer and WIllis have been 20 game winners .&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />Dan, <br /><br />You realize by now, that this is incorrect. Rogers and Verlander have never won 20 (I think 18 is their peak.) Willis won 22 in 2005, 14 in 2003 and beyond that is a .500 pitcher. He always starts great and then fades. (Let's see how he likes Detroit weather in April!)<br /><br />Anyway, I agree this is a great trade for Detroit. It makes them a much better team. Perhaps even the favorite to win their division. Let's not build a new wing on the Hall of Fame just yet. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Unfortunately, pitching wins world series in my opinion and I think the Tigers are weak there. Dontrelle might have a little bump this year but not enough. Rogers is chronically hurt. Verlander has the potential of being hurt ala Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. Their bullpen is not what it used to as well, their middle relief is suspect (although, I think it will be better than last year). Let us not forget that Renteria, Sheffield, Pudge, and Polanco are aging and apt to be hurt. There are no sure things in baseball (I remember this exact discussion on the Cubs a few years ago...Wood, Prior, Rameriez, Soriano, Lee, etc.).<br /><br />I think Detroit will make the playoffs but not sure they will overcome a team with dominant pitching (if the BoSox sign Santana, watch out!).<br /><br />Joshua<br /><br />PS Go Phillies?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>A lot also depends on Pudge Rodgriguez. For a catcher he had a great year at the bat, however, 2007 is below his normal standards.<br /><br />Also, he is 37 which is old for a tough position.<br /><br />But if he remains healthy and productive the Tigers could go all the way.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I don't think Pudge is much of a force any more and as a catcher at his age it is very likely that his decline will continue. He had his worst offensive season in about fifteen years (below .300 OBP) and had his worst season throwing out base stealers.

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Posted By: <b>James Gallo</b><p>First off, no way can you say this is one of the greatest teams ever especially before they have even taken the field.<br /><br />I have seen many a team not gel and blow up!!<br /><br />Second off I think you are over stating things quite a bit.<br /><br />1st base Carlos Guillen Nice player strikes out a lot for the position and the power he gives you.<br /><br />2nd base Placido Polonco Another good player but I think he hit well beyond himself last year. He is around a .300 hitter at best and could be =/- 20-30 points.<br /><br />SS Edgar Renteria Another question mark. His AVG the last time he was in the AM was .276. Nothing great here at all.<br /><br />3rd base Miguel Cabrera Killer pick up and as long as the weight is down should be solid.<br /><br />DH Gary Sheffield He's over the hill. All offense is down will be 40 this year. I wouldn't be too excited about him doing much.<br /><br />R-field Magglio Ordonez Good solid player and proven, but HR and AVG are all over the place. I doubt you will see another .363 season from him.<br /><br />C-field Curtis Granderson Young guy had a break out year last year. Assuming he continues to bat .300ish and not .260 like in 06.<br /><br />L-field Jacque Jones Another player that isn't so great. Both HR and SO dropped 20+ last year so I guess that balances out. Just an average player IMO with a .280 LT BA.<br /><br />Catcher Ivan Rodriguez Will be 37 next year. Another guy that strikes out near 100 times a year. Average coming down and he defense isn't want it used to be.<br /><br />As for the pitchers...<br /><br />starters -J.Verlander- J.bonderman- D.Willis- K.Rogers- N.Robertson<br /><br />I don't know what Willis has and that is a huge question mark.<br />Rogers is OLD and he has up and down seasons at best<br />I know nothing about Robertson.<br /><br />That being said all I want to hear is that you got a little to exciting and although they will likely be a good solid team and near the top of the AM they aren't one of the best ever.<br /><br />If you so stuck on the offense here is a team that I will bet will kill the Tigers in every offense category. The Phillies!!!<br /><br />1st Howard .280 40-60HR maybe more<br /><br />2nd Utley .300-.330 BA 25-35 HR Plenty of doubles<br /><br />SS Rollins .300 BS 25-35 HR NL MVP Nuff Said<br /><br />3rd a bit weak right now but if Iguchi comes back it will be a solid .280+ with lots of potential.<br /><br />C Ruiz Young guy that is just going to get better. Very good defense and I will expect an AVG increase of 10-20 points.<br /><br />LR Burell Gives you another 30 HR<br /><br />CF ?? Not sure yet Rowand or see RF. IF Rowand comes back another .280-.300 hitter with 25-30 HR<br /><br />RF Victorino A very solid young player with 15-20 HR 40+SB and a .280+ AVG.<br /><br />Pitching well we got Myers, Hamels and the old guy Moyer. We got a closer in Lidge<br /><br />There are a few holes, but I would say from an offense stand point they match up very well to the Tigers. Pitching may still need some work but the Tigers are relying on Rodgers and Willis who might be done, and the unproven Robertson.....<br /><br />You jumped the gun just admit it. I will wait and see what the Phillies, Yankees, Bo Sox and the other handful of contending teams do but I would give the Tigers the WS yet.<br /><br />James G<br><br>Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>James, Dan is just an excited fan and he overstated the Tiger case a bit. Looking at your post I see you did the same with the Phillies. No big deal that's what fans do.<br /><br />The Yanks are gonna score more than both teams anyway : )

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>Phillies have a great offense too, but aside from Hamels, I dont see their starting pitching being good enough to go all the way. Their relief pitching is questionable too. Lidge has great stuff but he's not the lights out closer he was for that 2-3 year period a few years ago. We know all too well about the struggles he's had with his mental approach to the game. Are they converting Myers back to a SP, or are they still going to run him out in relief? (could never understand why they did that in the first place).

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>you arent even close in anything.This team has all 9 to hit 300. No team in the game has ever had that,yes....not even the great Yankee teams. I play and follow baseball more intensive then most on this board.This team could set a run scoring record, watch and see.There are a couple of post here just for chits and giggles...crap talk is all it is. There are 4 batting titles on this team.And 6 have hit over 330 in their span.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>The Phillies play in a "bandbox", of course their numbers will look better on the surface. The Sox haven't gotten Santana yet..he may not go anywhere.

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Posted By: <b>Wil Jordan</b><p>It looks like an older version of the Florida Marlins. Before they can be called a great team they need to win something. The questions I have are can they beat the Red Sox? Will the pitching hold up--because when it gets right down to winning a world series it is always about piching not hitter.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Switching leagues is going to help Dontrelle Willis. The AL hasn't seen much of Dontrelle's unique pitching motion, he should win between 15-20 games next year.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>What an awesome trade the Tigers did with the Marlins. Yes, the Marlins got two great players in Maybin and Miller, but Cabrera is the real deal. I agree with perhaps batting Renteria 2nd vs. 8th. He has much more power than Polanco and is a threat to steal than Polanco. Polanco is more a contact hitter which would be better served in the 8 hole or nine hole to allow the big boys to hit him in.<br /><br />Nice trade and I like it because I have Pudge and Renteria on my fantasy team.<br /><br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Shane,<br /><br />Perhaps a bit early to call Maybin and Miller "great" players.<br /><br />I think Placido Polanco is an ideal hitter for the 2 hole. The guy hits .340, goes the other way frequently, makes contact and has reasonable speed. My bet is if Renteria hits .330 again he will bat 3rd in the lineup followed by Ordonez, Cabrera and Sheffield.<br /><br />I hope Inge does not play 3rd. Manager seems to love him. Miggy may end up in left.

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Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>Now that's a scary lineup! The Tigers (Dombrowski) did a great job in putting that team together in such a short time. Now if BoSox can get Santana ... I'd pay to see that series...<br /><br />Ricky Y

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Greatest team ever? At the moment, on paper, they're only the best team in the A.L. Central in 2008.<br /><br />Last time I checked, this is the team that collapsed completely down the stretch in 2007, finishing 8 games behind the Indians and 6 behind the Yanks in the wildcard.<br /><br />A great trade, but you're asking a lot of two players, one of whom could easily be a .500 pitcher.<br /><br />But swing away Los Tigres -- I'm rooting for anyone who can beat the Sox in 2008.

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>I wonder how Cobb would fit into the lineup.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>go back to your wine. ANd say hello to Ernest and Julio !<br /><br />edited cause I wasnt done with the wino. ALso , you say that each player down the line wont repeat themselves , when in fact they did just have great season. You must live a negative lifestyle along with being dismissed in your second year of T-Ball.<br /><br />you must live in a town with no baseball, cause ya surely dont know it !

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>please forgive me if I ask that they be required to play the games. See, the offense that Cabrera brings is great news for Tigers' fans, no doubt, but they finished with the 3rd most runs and 2nd best batting avg. last year without him, and still lacked the pitching (mostly bullpen) to win 90 games, much less a playoff spot. So if Zamaya doesn't return to form, then you Detoit fans better still remain a bit humble for awhile. Having endured Willis on my roto team last year--he of the 5.17 ERA in a weak-hitting NL, I consider him a #3 at best, that is to say he's no savior. 5.17!!! That's nearly a half-run higher than flippin Nate Robertson, Tigers fans. So enjoy the Kool Aid while you can, and let's see how the September standings look.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>for whatever reason...Leyland brought up several youngsters and sat veterans in the midst of a playoff chance.Rogers ,Verlander and Zumaya were all out. So the wins have nothing to do with the way they dealt there own fate. i as a bystander could not believe what they were doing that whole entire time. Thew weirdest thing I ever saw. There is no team is history that has put a lineup together such as this.Sheffield was hurt and played still...which hurt the team.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>The Tigers were 15-11 in September. Verlander had 6 starts and Rogers 5, and Zamaya piched 10 times that month. They didn't have the pitching all year. Bonderman was awful the second half. Rogers is now what age 75? Todd Jones is not exactly Mr. Automatic. Zamaya's ERA went from under 2 in 2006 to over 4.25, and he was hurt. Willis sucks. If they get their pitching together, they'll win, if not, the Tribe repeats, IMHO. But hey, enjoy the moment. I'm a Twins fan--we're just happy when we keep our guys, and don't allow ourselves to think about acquiring someone else's talent. Still, don't look over your shoulder..............

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Whoops--lets hold the greatest team threads--story out this morning that Tigers may flip Willis due to payroll limitations.

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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>"no team has ever put together a lineup like this"???<br /><br />Dan, really?<br /><br />That early '30s Yankee lineup really sucked...Dickey, Combs, Ruth, Gehrig, Lazzeri? <br /><br />Or the late '20s A's with Simmons, Cochrane, Cobb, Wheat, Collins, and Foxx.<br /><br />Again...hitting does not win games...great pitching beats great hitting everytime.<br /><br />Joshua

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Breaking news!!! The rest of the American League has voted to PLAY OUT THE 2008 SEASON!! This despite the obvious dominance of the Tigers. Can you believe it? <br /><br /><br />Peter, <br /><br />Changing leagues will help Willis? Rarely does someone get better when they move from the JV to the Varsity.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>trashing is my field...........c'mon down............NEXT !!!!<br /><br />soon you's will see that...........you big dummies.<br /><br />Iam taking Peter's bet and others of THE GREATEST HITTing team on earth.............next !!!!!

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Jim...Peter may be on to something. In fifteen career inter-league starts (including games vs. the Yanks & Bosox) Willis' ERA is more than a run below his National League ERA.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>my post is not based on Willis. Evelyn Woodhead does have reading courses.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>&lt;&lt;3B Rose over Cabrera&gt;&gt;<br /><br />The 1968 and 1969 Rose years are the only ones remotely close to Cabrera's. Rose's best year in total bases was 1969 with 321. Cabrera is better than that the last three years.<br /><br />I take Cabrera over Rose in a heart beat.

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Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>Joshua: And vice versa.

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>27 Yankees and 76 Reds would pull a 4 game sweep on this Tigers team. <br /><br />27 Yankees vs. 76 Reds? Yankees 4 games to 3

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>You're probably going to have to beat Beckett at least once, if not twice, to win a series against the Sox. There weren't any pitchers available, except Santana and they weren't going to trade him inside their division to the Tigers, so you have to try to make Beckett go through a monster lineup twice.

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Posted By: <b>DAn Koteles</b><p>see what Detroit did to him last year.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, I agree that Detroit has a wonderfully balanced lineup -- and potent to the nth degree. However, in a 7 game series, which team is beating this starting four: Beckett (2 games), Santana (2 games), Dice K, Schilling? Answer: no team because great pitching beats great hitting every time.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>noone will outhit the Tigers .EVeryone wants to pick on Rogers, remember 3 straight shutouts in the playoffs the year before.His imjury again was a blood clot, not a rotator. Forget he is 43...he is a master locator like John Tudor and is more enduring. Verlander can match any of those guys.....Bonderman will come back, the guy has some sick pitches, then Willis?....I think all are wrong about him.HE will give you 200 + innings AND has finally getting run support .When you go to the park knowing you are going to win, it falls into place. YOu automatically play better with better people.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Ultimately, it's pitching that wins championships, and I'm not convinced Willis will make a difference. He kind of reminds me of Barry Zito in that he walks a lot of batters and his strikeouts are going down each year. I believe that's because Willis, like Zito, has deceptive stuff, but hitters are learning to lay off his pitches since he throws a lot of pitches out of the strike zone. <br /><br />As for Cabrera, he's obviously a great young hitter, but baseball history is filled with great hitting teams that came up short ... there's a really good reason teams are willing to trade excellent everyday players like Orlando Cabrera for average but durable pitchers like Jon Garland.<br /><br />Personally, I like the Tigers. I was born in Flint, Michigan, which defintely qualifies as Tiger country. But I'm afraid their pitching is too dependant on fading guys like Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones. Plus, it looks like Joel Zumaya, who has the best stuff in their bullpen, could be out all season ...<br /><br />I'm looking forward to watching their lineup, but I believe they'd have a better team with Dan Haren or Erik Bedard, two guys that could have been had for some combination of the prospects that went to Florida. Imagine last year's Tiger lineup and a rotation of Haren, Verlander and Bonderman ...

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Posted By: <b>James Gallo</b><p>Howard---Exactly what did I overstate? All my Phillies numbers were pulled from the last few years of experience. I looks at the numbers and that is what I posted. I don't think I over stated things at all. Did you look over the numbers?<br /><br />Ben--- Yes I aware the Phillies need some help in the pitching department and I never said the pitching was that strong. Myers is back as a starter and Lidge will have Gordon as a back up closer.<br /><br />Dan fist off you need to CHILL OUT!!!!<br /><br />Real original Wine comments jeee like I haven't heard that before.<br /><br /><br />Have you looked at your own damn team numbers?<br /><br />Last years BA from the Tigers OWN WEB SITE<br /><br />Rodriguez .281<br />Sheffield .265 Hasn't hit .300 since 2002<br />Guillen .296<br />Jones .285 and that was the closest he has been to .300 for 4 years.<br />Granderson his last 4 years were .240, .272, .260 and .302 so all of a sudden he is a .300 hitter give me a break.<br /><br /><br />I don't see more then 4 maybe 5 tops guys who are going to bat over .300 next year. I do see 2 guys over the hill and 2 guys that haven't proven anything in Jones and Granderson.<br /><br /><br />Oh and Dan Why not read over your owns posts, here is one for you<br />"noone will outhit the Tigers .EVeryone wants to pick on Rogers, remember 3 straight shutouts in the playoffs the year before.His imjury again was a blood clot, not a rotator. Forget he is 43...he is a master locator like John Tudor and is more enduring. Verlander can match any of those guys.....Bonderman will come back, the guy has some sick pitches, then Willis?....I think all are wrong about him.HE will give you 200 + innings AND has finally getting run support .When you go to the park knowing you are going to win, it falls into place. YOu automatically play better with better people."<br /><br />The following words are in my dictionary<br />noone<br />imjury<br /><br />You might try a grammer check too and ease up on those CAPS TOO!!<br /><br />Once again as I said lets see them play some games and you need to chill out. I hit you with facts and you come with wine comments are you 6 because that is sure they way your acting.....<br /><br /><br />James G<br><br>Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"Verlander can match any of those guys" Ahh, Dan, hope springs eternal. I think the Tigers' pitchers have potential but as of today no way can they match Beckett in the playoffs. And Santana is just more experienced... I only hope that the Sox and the Tigers get to the Championship Series because it will be one of the most anticipated series in a long while.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Iam acting like Iam 8, not 6. You correct my accidental spelling and didnt even spell grammar right. You put "er", er meaning stands for your baseball thoery,eeeeeeRRRRrReeeeeRRRRRRRR<br /><br />I love the way you respond to me ,it is like a 10 yr old picking on a 8 year old , you bully you ! whhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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Posted By: <b>Mark Steinberg</b><p>Brian: <br />I was wondering how long it would take to get a disagreement on the "Rose over Cabrera" comparison... I thought I'd get hammered more on that one, as this was the one I labored with the most. <br /><br />You are probably right about Cabrera "on paper", but having lived and breathed it back in the day, I can tell you that Rose was so tough under pressure and in games that mattered. He really brought with him an infectious "never say die" attitude. This was well before all of the gambling nonsense and other poor decisions he made. Unfortunately (and perhaps deservedly so) he will be remembered more for the corruption. But the man did amass more hits than Cobb, for Pete's sake. (horrible unintended pun.... sorry!)<br /><br />Larry:<br />I agree with you about the '27 Yanks vs. the '76 Reds... probably Yankees in seven. But wouldn't that be an amazing World Series to watch? Perhaps not the greatest pitching, but what a potential slugfest... a meeting of the Gods!

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Posted By: <b>James Gallo</b><p>Man I provide all the facts and all you manage to do is pick out one misspelling. I must have really hit the nail on the head cause you got nothing to say about ANY of the FACTS I put out.<br /><br />Good luck to the Tigers I will be happy to see them fall on their faces.<br /><br />James G<br /><br />Now back to cards please.<br><br>Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: <b>Howard</b><p>James, it looks to me like you analyzed the Tigers and Phillies lineups in different ways. You looked for the possible negatives for the Detroit while you did the opposite for Philly. For example, you project Rollins as a .300 hitter when, in fact, he never hit .300 in a season. Not even last year when he won the MVP. However, you also describe Polanco as "around a .300 hitter at best". So to you the guy who has a lifetime .305 BA and batted .340 last year and the guy who never once hit .300 are apparently both basically .300 hitters. Can you honestly say you would have put the same spin on them if Rollins was on the Tigers and Polanco was still on the Phillies?<br /><br />Also, this line: "Ruiz young guy who is just going to get better". Really? Why? He's not really young (28 when next season starts) and it seems just as likely to me that he'll decline next year.<br /><br />You think Iguchi will hit a solid .280 plus next year and he has lots of potential. Maybe. But I see a 33 year old w/a lifetime BA lower than .280 coming off his worst year. What would your description of him been if he was on the Tigers?<br /><br />Rowand will hit 25-30 HRs. Again..maybe. But you base this on his career year last season and discount the previous two seasons when he totaled about 25 HRs in about 1,000 ABs.<br /><br />Maybe your right and everything will fall into place but I will bet you that the Tigers score more runs than the Phillies next season. And Dan, I'll bet you that the Yankees score more runs than the Tigers next year.<br /><br />Now keep debating, guys. It's entertaining.<br /><br />Howard

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>you trashed my spelling while you misspelled first as fist and trash me while you couldnt even spell grammar.Now you come along and act as if you can tell me to hush while you get your last word in like some dictator.Iam the "dic" here and you are the "tator". you will dig a deeper hole as we merily go along.<br /><br />Talking with you is the same as chasing a dead snake. Put your money up son.....that is all the talking you need to do.<br /><br />BAck to cards JAmes, do you have anything to mention ?<br /><br />you have a deal Howard....thank you for the friendly bet. James can you do that for your Fightin'Phillies? Thanks also Howard for mentioning his Philly comparisons....the silly Phillian. GET OFF THE "BOONSEFARM" !<br /><br />editing was for Howard's bet and I had to correct some bunching.James , I bet you do not know the meaning of bunching?<br /><br />A)togetherness<br />B)a build up in a Gallo head<br />C)a partridge in a pear tree

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I don't know why I post in this thread, as I don't have real strong feelings on the subject, but Dan, I don't think the '08 Tigers are even the best baseball team from Detroit in the past quarter century. I believe the '84 team would take them out in a seven game series nearly every time. Give me Lance Parrish, Trammell, Whitaker, HoJo, Darrell Evans, Kirk Gibson and Chet Lemon over today's group, and give me the '84 pitching staff, which had a better rotation--headed by Jack Morris--and a studly bullpen led by MVP Willie Hernandez. The more I think of it, the more I have trouble believing the '08 Tigers could even stretch that series to 7 games.

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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Years ago I had a program that I could plug teams into using the year's stats including both pitching and batting and match them up and have them play a 7 game series to see who the better team. I used to love to plug my Phillies in and play them against the '27 Yanks, or the '69 Mets, or the upcoming years lineups. I would love to use this on the Tigers against some teams and see what happens...anybody remember this?<br /><br />Joshua

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>Jim,<br />I agree that Polanco is a great opposite field hitter. Over the past three seasons Polanco has improved in every offensive catagory, perhaps getting more AB's has allowed him to become more consistant at the plate. I believe he only hit 8 homers last year in that lineup, but had an incredible BA and OBA. I would personally hit him after Pudge to not only clean up the guys on base, but be an on base threat for the top of the order. <br />Maybin and Miller are in the top 5 prospects in the MLB. Both are studs at their positions, and both will be future stars in the league. The NL has always played and succeeded in the small ball arena. Maybin has all the tools to play this game and will be a Jose Reyes type player. Once Miller gets more comfortable pitching in the big leagues, his control will improve. His height and velocity reminds scouts very much like a Randy Johnson. <br /><br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>James Gallo</b><p>Howard--<br /><br />Rollins last 4 years BA are .289, .290. .277 and last year .296.<br /><br />Polanco .338, .316, .295, .341. However he had a lot of sub .300 years and his average has a swing of 20-30 points from year to year.<br /><br />Rollins may not have hit that 300 mark but he has been much more consistent with only a 5-10 point swing. He also has a team to hit around as opposed to previous years where he had no one. <br /><br />Did I under estimate Polanco some, perhaps but I still wouldn't expect him to hit .340 consistently for the rest of his career.<br /><br />Ruiz is a "rookie" and last year was his first full year. I am not sure why you would see a decline. He is the #1 starting catcher and he has a killer line up to play in. That means he will get more pitches to hit. I saw his defense and offense get better as the season went on. <br /><br />How the hell is Iguchi at a .280 BA a stretch he is a life time .276 hitter and he was on only ok Sox teams in a the Phillies line-up he would hit his .280 or better. The White Sox were horrible last year and he hit .304 with the Phillies. <br /><br />Again with Rowand he is on a line-up where he is going to see more killer pitchers especially batting behind Howard. The 05 and 06 White Sox were not the greatest teams, and he did hit 24 HR in 04.<br /><br /><br />I think your cutting some hairs here.<br /><br /><br />Dan what do you want to bet I am up for it. Total runs, best finish, wins........ You pick the terms and get back to me.<br /><br /><br />Oh and I don't need to get the last word, I had other posters I wante to respond to. <br /><br />Now I will wait for you to set your terms and we can move on.<br /><br />Still nothing to say about the stats though hu?<br /><br />James G<br><br>Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>how about 250.00 on each of the three you mentioned. tHen each player 1-8 100.00. When we are done , i will visit you at the mission and make sure you get a fresh donut.....with creme !

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>you need to quit being a stat guy, other then 3 guys the Phillies suck. You guys play a very week division or simply most of the NL is weak. <br /><br />Granderson<br />Polonco<br />Cabrera<br />Ordonez<br />Sheffield<br />GUillen<br />Renteria<br />Rodriguez<br />Jones............................wowfrickinwee<br /><br />Todd, what is your bet?...the 84 Tigers would not do well against this bunch.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe G.</b><p>I’m not going to get into argument here, just show my support for the recent trades. I, like Dan, am excited for this upcoming season; I too renewed my seats. The Tiger’s offense is going to be something to see. Most everyone is focusing on just Cabrera, forgetting about our other two substantial pick-ups, Renteria & Jones (Jacque Jones). They allow the Tigers to redistribute their talent such that our DH may become the “weakest” bat although I really think Shef will rebound with a healthy shoulder. He spent half of last season with a slow swing due to his injury, committing to pitches he would normally lay off.<br /><br />Consider the following Starting line-up with last years Batting Averages (all of which could repeat or even improve with the better talent top to bottom). Listed from highest batting average to lowest (MLB rank):<br /><br />Magglio Ordonez (RF): .363 (1st)<br />Placido Polanco (2B): .341 (3rd)<br />Edgar Renteria (SS): .332 (8th) - w Braves last year<br />Miguel Cabrera (3B): .320 (17th) - w Marlins last year<br />Curtis Granderson (CF): .302 (32nd)<br />Carlos Guillen (1B): .296 (43rd)<br />Jacque Jones (LF): .285 (80th) - w Cubs last year<br />Ivan Rodriguez (C): .281 (85th)<br />Gary Sheffield (DH): .265 (125th) - however, led team in walks (.378 OBP)<br /><br />Keep in mind there are 30 MLB teams, so on average, the best player on any given team should place in the top 30, the 2nd in the top 60, the 3rd in the top 90 etc. The Tigers are loaded, there will be some very high scoring games. I suspect I’ll be getting a lot of free haircuts from Lady Janes (free haircuts the day after a 10 run game the Tigers win if you can produce a game ticket).<br /><br />The pitching is the big question with plenty of outside factors, most notably injury (so no projections from me). Time will tell, but with better than an average BA of .310 from your starting 9, I like our chances.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>and I already said I don't care all that much. Still,you'd face Morris in a three game series--I doubt you'd win once, and I'd bet HUGE you wouldn't win a game seven. Pitching beats hitting pretty much every time. The '08 Tigers wouldn't get a sniff after the 6th inning against that '84 bullpen--I don't care what stats you're rolling out. Get some pitching and then start crowing. Todd Jones is a journeyman closer who turns 40 opening month and who has pitched for eight teams in the last 7 years. Does that sound like a guy the league fears? If Zumaya doesn't come back to '06 form and your starters improve, you're looking at winning your games 10-7, and while the Yankees have tried that formula the last several years, it really hasn't worked very well for them come post-season, has it?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>he needs to be traded to Gallos Phillies .Todd, Verlander will be better then Morris. Verlander will now get his chance.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>please post this thread when the great tiger team wins a world series. or gets into the post season <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>please go lay down and go to bed and quit hijacking a thread that doesnt interest you.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Every time Jones comes into a game I have to turn off the TV. I really thought Zumaya would be closing by now, except got hurt playing too much Guitar Hero and now he injures himself moving boxes at his house. This is a worrisome trend to say the least. I think Verlander has a chance to win 25 games if their lineup stays healthy all year and if he can dominate in the postseason ala Beckett(big if), "we" have a good chance of beating the Sox.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Dan K., keep up the barrage, you are doing a GREAT job?<br /><br />Go Tigers, Red Wings, Pistons, sorry Lions.<br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>HEY my buddy Dan-<br><br><br>I will give you 10-1 odds that the Tigers will not win the WS next year. Kenny Rogers cannot hold Tudors jock......besides, he will get hurt. Zumbabway or whatever his name is will come back only to get hurt playing Halo 3, Verlander and Willis will be good but Verlander lacks experience. They are probably the best talented team in the league overall, but they just dont have what it takes to win it all. Sorry to burst your bubble, cause I really really like you. Rodney needs to learn to handle some situations better, and middle relief needs to pull through......Otherwise I cannot see them keeping up with likes of Red Sox. Let me know how much you want in for.<br><br><br>Jason<br><br>P.S. added.....just to let you know, I would actually like to see them win it all. I just do not think they will do it. Takes more than all the talent to win a championship. Maybe in 3-4 more years. They do need to keep the video games away from Zamboogla. Maybe fine him $100K everytime he is caught with a PS3 or X box in his hotel room.

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Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>The great thing about the "hot stove" season is that hope springs eternal. I wonder if any teams other than the Tigers and Phillies will even bother showing up for spring training next year?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>my ole buddy....you have some good humor there , but....as far as it goes.Tudor pitched how long?....til he was how old? Great command pitchers THAT KNOW HOW TO PITCH, can go long time. Satchel Paige went for how long? Arent you closer to KC then STl ?...is that when PAtek was your hero? Kc got there big gun this year, uh who was it.....uh the big whopper bopper ,uh Jose Guillen on roids?<br /><br />Suspended first 15 or 25, ah he will still lead your favorites in HR's with what 18?....oh boy , yuns in fer a long season.<br /><br />xoxoJAson<br />from Dan

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Swept at home by the vaunted Royals...may want to hold off on the proclamation until they win a game.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No team has ever started 0-4 and won the World Series. Tigers right now are 0-5.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>But there is a truism about the Tigers that many locals know. Never count them out before the kids get out of school for the year. <br /><br />Yeah it's kind of an old wives' tale, but it does often seem that they pick up after school lets out for the year (and, of course, it is getting warmer). Long tradition of slow starts in DTW. Not many 1984-like exceptions.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>if they keep Leyland and SHeffield they might not win a game.<br /><br />Leyland blew it last year while being 7-8 games up and started platooning rookies in the of and pitching staff....well either one worked and we didnt make the playoffs. they refused to address the relief pitching and they bat their best hitters (other then Ordonez in the 4 slot) in the 5-6 holes.<br /><br />SHeffield is now a "hack" and a attention grabber ,NY let him go just at the right time.<br /><br />RUmors are that Inge and 2 porspects for Oaklands STreet maybe in the works.Zall i know.<br /><br />We have enough hitting to get relief pitching, wether another team will trade with us will be interesting to see. Zumaya and Rodney are injured and Cruceta has not cleared his Visa.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Barry, I like that.... 0-4. <br /><br />And I think it will remain a truism at the end of the season.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Everybody's trendy picks to go to the playoffs and finish 1-2 in the AL Central are the Tigers and Indians. Meanwhile, the young and retooled Twins and always dangerous because they can score 12 runs a game White Sox have been totally overlooked...

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Posted By: <b>E. Angyal</b><p>Seems like some of that money may have been better spent on pitching. Next.........<br /><br />Eric

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>So far they seem to be the greatest team for other AL teams to play...

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Go Sox.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>I hope they haven't scheduled the parade yet.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>April 7th, 2008. A fortuitous day in Tiger baseball. They won't lose today.

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Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>Hey I'd take the Tigers without a win over my current SF Giants anyday..Yipee we lost again.<br /><br />Ricky Y

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>The Bengals powered up for a total of 5 singles in Tuesday's game with the Red Sox... no runs, though.

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Sit back and watch the scoreboard light up like a pinball machine. .235 team BA and 15 runs in 7 games...Outscoring one MLB team and multiple UEFA squads.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>There we go!!!!<br /><br />Glad you Tigers fans got one into the win column. Congratulations.<br /><br />Edgar Renteria, my dear former Cardinal shortstop, had a good night. I'm glad he's on my fantasy team, even if he isn't still scooping grounders in St. Louis.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Detroit pitchers yesterday achieved the equivalent of every position player getting a hit; every pitcher gave up at least 1 run. <br />But who needs good pitching when your offense can score 6 runs!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>buttercup

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>How did we neglect to note that the Tigers made it to .500 ???<br /><br />49-49 after Verlander's fine game Sunday.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>"Why do you build me up (build me up) buttercup, baby, just to let me down?"

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>In hindsight I'd rather have Miller, Maybin, and Jurrjens than Cabrera, Willis, and Renteria.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>April 6 2008:<br /><br />Everybody's trendy picks to go to the playoffs and finish 1-2 in the AL Central are the Tigers and Indians. Meanwhile, the young and retooled Twins are always dangerous because they can score 12 runs a game White Sox have been totally overlooked...<br /><br />Sticking by my guns- Twins win the AL Central by 2 games over the Pale Hose although lately they haven't been scoring 12 runs a game <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>19-1 Detroit<br /><br /><br />final: 19-4

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>but problem is Dan, that's their first win against the Royals--they're 1-6. They also beat the Twins earlier this year 19-3. Impressive, but they're only 5-10 against Minnesota on the season. Last I looked a few weeks ago, they led the majors in being shut out.<br /><br />They COULD turn it on enough to take the division, only because the Twins are young and the Sox have Ozzie Guillen. Still, they likely are outside looking in, and they've got no shot in the postseason under any circumstances. They'd be better off trading Mags for a pitcher, and dumping Pudge and Sheffield at year end, earlier if they can get a decent return.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>The 15-24 record against the AL Central is brutal.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Alright!!!!!<br /><br />They've won 2 in a row. If they can tack 2 more wins onto that, they will have reached .500 !!!!!!<br /><br />Then look out central division. No telling what could happen in Septpember.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Greatest Team update...<br /><br /><br />A 6 run 5th inning propels the Tigers past KC, for a 6-3 win. Improving the Tigers' record to 65-69. Still a shot at reaching .500 with a good, no a great September.

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Posted By: <b>hrbaker</b><p>They're SSSSSSIIIIIIIIICCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK!!!! alright! When's the parade?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>This is why we play the games.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Guess my April 8th pick of the Twins and Sox, not the Tigers and Injuns is holding up <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />It's going to come down to the wire in the AL Central with whomever has the better bullpen (both have been horrible lately) winning it. Still a chance the loser can edge out the Bosox for the wild card and watch the tv executives dive out the window if the Yanks, Red Sox and Mets don;t make the playoffs :-P

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Bob, I haven't been on top of it but what was the consensus about the Twins waiting so long to bring Liriano back? From the outside it seemed insane...especially if they lose the division by a game or two.

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Posted By: <b>ROBERT ADAMS JR</b><p>Well , One Of The Greatest Teams has fought it's way to last place in the division .

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>bonderman exited early and Willis was a flop. Carlos Guillen injured and Leyland was so far from managing what was thought to be the best lineup in baseball. The Tiger brass needs to focus on a speedster in LF, sign J.J.Hardy to play ss as my inside source states they are going after him and get the big name pitcher they said that must happen. Other then this.........wasnt I close?

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>No.

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Yes <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>As the saying goes, close only counts for horseshoes and grenades. The Tigers are a bomb, which could describe a grenade, so perhaps you were close.<br /><br /><br />Also, if "not possible to be more wrong" = close, then yes, you were close. Better than close.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>deleted -- double post

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><img src="http://www.deepjiveinterests.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/eating-crow.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>thanks the GOOD LORD for hindsight !

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Right you are, Robert, they fought their way to last place.<br /><br /><br />But it wasn't easy. I think they had the second highest on field payroll in the game this year. Players that good at picking agents that good at negotiating salaries... well those players would win at least half of their game, many (I was going to type 'one', when I thought of tape worms) would think.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>one of the "greatest teams ever" managed to finish in last place in the AL central behind the KC ROYALS.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>snawk-he be be be be be be<br />snawk-he be be be be be<br />snawk-he be be be be eb <br /><br />woob boob woob woob woob<br /><br />e be be be be be be be<br /><br />what was your favorite team, uh , the Tacoma Red-Nuts?

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Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>The <i>Unreal</i> DK

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>snawk- e be be be be be<br /><br />wait til 09, Illitch sais he will spend to correct this past year misstakes and I will be back posting. This hardly matches your initial post when the National was around D.MC...wrong tree<br /><br /><br />edited for spelling

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><i>edited for spelling</i><br /><br />Funniest thing I've read this month.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>The season was scheduled to end on Sept 28th.<br /><br />And those glorious Tigers were still at work on the field<br />on Sept 29 !!!!<br /><br />A real die-nasty. <br /><br /><br />So what is the payroll/standing results?? The Yankees had the<br />largest payroll, they're not in the playoffs. The Tigers had<br />the next largest payroll and they're out. Anyone know who was<br />third and fourth? And the payroll ranks for the teams that made the playoffs?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>cant imagine you curling up into a little ball over that one, but you are still probably in your playpen unnatended.<br /><br />edited for I didnt see the wolfie part, is that like RObbie?

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>And with the Tigers' season concluded, I applaud Dan K for being a true fan. He's stayed with his Tigers through all of this 2008 season. No fair weather fan.

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>I'll respond as soon as I find my secret decoder ring.<br /><br />In the meantime, here's a gift:<br /><br /><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/">www.dictionary.com</a>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>if your day is spent picking apart another man's spelling.<br /><br />go Tigers<br /><br />2009 will be the year

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- does that include me too? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Iam not really sure that in the + 20 yrs I have known you that I could ever figure you out. Mysteriously it is all good.<br /><br />Oh Robbie ,iam not sure if I spelled that big word right ,but if I didnt...I wouldnt of had to look it up.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Couldn't figure me out...that's intriguing. I didn't think I was so complicated.

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><i>cant imagine you curling up into a little ball over that one, but you are still probably in your playpen unnatended.</i><br /><br /><i>edited for I didnt see the wolfie part, is that like RObbie?</i><br /><br /><i>you have male problems wolfie</i> <br /><br />The ability to dissect with a scalpel rather than a chainsaw is a rare gift.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Frank:<br />In reference to your post above, the Mariners were the first team EVER to spend over 100 million in salary, and lose 100 games. Perhaps even more overpaid than the Tigers.... at least a worse "salary to win" ratio. I think Sexson made over 17 million, and check out his stats...<br /><br />Dan:<br />Not to pile on, but I think you meant to tell Robbie "I wouldn't HAVE had to look it up..."

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />You're welcome to catch a ride with me to the Male Problem Clinic.<br /><br />Rob

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>April 6 2008:<br /><br />Everybody's trendy picks to go to the playoffs and finish 1-2 in the AL Central are the Tigers and Indians. Meanwhile, the young and retooled Twins are always dangerous because they can score 12 runs a game White Sox have been totally overlooked...<br /><br /><br />Nice to be right once in a while <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />C'mon Twins, win today damnit!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>I did see that afterward , but I was done editing for the moment.<br /><br />He got the picture, well sorta.....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, the Twins lost. Can't help but wonder what would have occurred had they called up Liriano a bit sooner -- he went 10-0 in Triple A, was hitting 97 on the gun -- but was forced to file a grievance to force the Twins' cheap-ass owner to call him up sooner. Oh well, I guess Pohlad saved a few bucks by putting off Liriano's arbitration eligibility. I'm sure it was worth it.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>While all Twins fans are hoping for the best, Liriano's earlier callup would almost certainly made no difference. A few points to ponder.<br /><br />1. Liriano would have made his three years of service had he performed well for the Twins throughout '08. Instead, he showed up late for training camp due to a visa problem relating to a DUI arrest from '06. Having more than a year to figure out and make sure he was in everyone's good legal graces before the '08 season, he mucked up.<br /><br />2. Liriano made the squad out of Spring Training, and again, if he performs consistently, there's no question about his arbitration eligibility. The Twins gave him the ball, and he sucked--- 0-3 with a double digit ERA. They sent him down, where he immediately sucked some more-- 7 earned in 8 1/3 innings over two starts. Once May 24th passed, ie, while he was still awful, there were not enough games remaining in the season for Liriano to reach the three-years service requirement.<br /><br />3. There are some exceptions to the three year requirement, for a select few known as the Super Two players. A decent article on the subject and especially as relates to Liriano is found here: <a href="http://www.twinkietown.com/2008/7/20/575451/greg-genske-wrong-about-ev" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.twinkietown.com/2008/7/20/575451/greg-genske-wrong-about-ev</a><br />Liriano remained inconsistent at Rochester, and the author expalins well what happened:<br /><br />"On June 25, Liriano was coming off four quality starts since his last trainwreck, and he been called up that day, he'd have been a lock for Super Two status. Instead, he stayed in Rochester and produced two of his worst starts of the season on June 25 and 30, allowing 10 ER in 10.1 IP — and most troubling, giving up four home runs in those two games. Had the Twins called up Liriano for his next start on July 5, he still would have had a good chance to reach Super Two status — but what team calls up a pitcher after two straight trainwrecks in the minors? Only a team desperate for starting pitching, which the Twins obviously were not. Liriano bounced back with a solid start on July 5, and another on July 10, but by then it was already too late. Even had the Twins promoted him to start on July 10 — following his one good start after the two trainwrecks — he still would have ended the season with at most 2.125 days of service time, almost certainly under the Super Two threshold."<br /><br />4. It is important to note that this situation hardly screams of injustice to the player. The Twins kept Liriano on the 40 man roster and thereby gave him service eligibility for all of 2007 and a large chunk of 2006 when he was on the DL and unable to lift his arm and pitch for ANYBODY, major or minor league. In other words, Francisco had more time on the DL than on any roster, yet got credit for that entire time while contributing nothing to the team. <br /><br />5. At the time his agent cried foul against the team, the Twins had just gone 21-7 in their last 28 games. Noboby messes with the chemistry of a team playing .750 ball. Given how he had hardly played in two years on the big club and had sucked in the early part of the year, it would almost certainly have created ill will on the team to see Liriano promoted at someone else's expense when "it ain't broken".<br /><br />6. Liriano remains unproven as a full-year starter, and got pounded in two of his last three starts--all in the heat of the September pennant race. While he may or may not be the stopper on this staff, he is not as good as Baker right now, and probably not as good as Slowey either.<br /><br />In sum, Liriano should focus on getting better, more consistent and remaining healthy, not trumpeting that the cheap Twins are out to cheat him. The team has been more than fair with him, and will remain so.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Instead of picking up 5 of baseball's worst retreads, Livan Hernandez, Craig Monroe, Mike Lamb, Carl Everett and Eddie Guardado, if they had just spent a little of the money they saved on not re-signing Torii Hunter and not keeping Johann Santana and acquired a frigging power hitting 3b or lf, they would have won easily. Punch and judy hitting will just carry you so far. Last in the majors in homerun, they were the modern version of the hitless wonders White Sox of the early 1900's.<br />Gardenhire is also the most overrated manager in baseball. Nice guy, loved by his players but he tries to be a poor man's Tony LaRusso without Tony's brains. Everything is by the book. His record in big games is horrific. <br />A shame, the boys deserved better....

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>they overachieved this year. They are very young and have tremendous upside. They probably have a surplus of starting pitching--Humber came along nicely thank you-- and if Neshek can get healthy, their pen should shore up nicely. If anything, I'd trade Liriano to get a big stick on the left side of the infield. Many still seem enamored of his stuff, and the Twins can afford to move him if teams want to drool all over themselves. I wouldn't give him away because he could change for the better, but right now he remains a 100 pitch guy who usually can't spread those 100 through more than 6 innings. We really don't have much other trade bait except for Nathan (bad idea)or possibly Kubel, so maybe open up the wallet for a free agent 3B or SS such as can be reasonably afforded. Go Twins!!!<br /><br />Edited to add: BTW, it was Adam Everett, not Carl, who they "added" this year. He had a couple shining moments, but Carl would have been better, maybe even Chad Everett. And you're right, while Gardy works magic with the kids year after year, his decision-making on the field is usually unimaginative t othe point where he probably costs them some games. Having watched alot of baseball these past few yers on Direct TV though, I can tell you there are many many managers who are far worse, some scarily so.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, I guess keeping a guy down in the minors who was 10-0 with a 2.67 ERA was better than using a worthless Livan Hernandez, who posted a 4-6 record in 11 starts with an ERA of around 6.50 -- until he was released. Hmmm....somehow I suspect that if Liriano was brought up when he was only 5-0 those extra 5 major league starts instead of using Hernandez might have made a 1 game difference.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>Todd,<br /> Gotta disagree about trading Liriano. He struck out 188 in 199 innings this year, his first full season after the surgery. He's only 25 and has electric stuff. You just don't trade young pitchers with his upside. They don't come around that often.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Jeff, the Twins missed winning the division by one game, so certainly, one can pick any particular game all season where the starter got torched and argue that Liriano would have been the difference. You might also argue that the team should have benched Liriano for his final start, when a win could have put the Twins in the driver's seat, but where instead he got lit to the tune of 11 hits and 6 earned in 4 1/3 innings pitched to the Royals. <br /><br />Livan Hernandez won 10 games for the team in half a season. He ate innings willingly, even when getting bashed, and was considered a great influence in the clubhouse for the young arms. As for the 4-6 stretch you look back upon, the offense scored two or fewer runs in three of those losses, and, during that part of the calendar, Liriano himself was getting torched twice in Rochester--see above. <br /><br />I already showed the decision-making process the Twins organization used, and Twins fans have no regrets about Liriano was handled. If anything, the team might wish it had called up Denard Span earlier. They wrestled with that issue for some time, as Span was supposed to play for the Olympic team and would have if the Twins could have kept him in Rochester. Span, who very much wanted to play for team USA, kept his mouth shut, played hard, and turned into a dynamic player with a very bright future. He too will be rewarded by the Twins.<br /><br />Ed, don't get me wrong. I certainly would like to keep Liriano. I'm just saying they have little in the way of trade bait, and they badly need pop on the left side. I believe everyone overvalues him now. The K numbers you cite were mostly in the minors, and his walks were up (Twins pitchers don't walk hitters, they were first in MLB by a lot). Frankly, his WHIP was fourth best in the rotation, well behind Baker and Slowey and even trailing Blackburn--all of whom are young and full of potential too. I'll leave it to the organization on this, as their track record in evaluating talent and doing well in trades is well established and envied by many. It's a good problem to have-keep an apparent stud starter or trade him for great value--that's for sure.