There's Real Dough Is In Rare Ultra High Condition Cards

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p>For the better part of three years, we have preached that ultra high condition pre war<br />baseball cards are under-valued. In terms of establishingg long-term value, <br />nothing matters more than condition.<br /><br />Whilst PSA and SGC make a few mistakes (less than 1/10 of 1% of what they now<br />grade), an ultra high grade card- especially for a rare card of a highly desirable player.<br />has appreciated at a rate far. far above that of the best performing (if there are any left)<br />equities or other financial instruments.<br /><br />Last evening's Goodwin Auction is a case in point. The ultra high grade Brunners Bread <br />Hall of Famers realized prices that stunned everyone. The PSA 8 Cobb for example, <br />realized over $270,000.<br /><br />A number of other cards topped all prices realized expectations by a factor of 3 o 4.<br /><br />Those who argue that plastic does not matter...might also suggest that the quality of<br />loans does not matter or that Russia is not a threat to America's safety and security.<br /><br />We understand and appreciate that ultra high grade collecting is the sport of an elite<br />few collectors in much the same way that other collectibles have segmented their markets.<br /><br />And much like the very best impressionist paintings, D flawless diamonds, Faberge Eggs and other<br />extraordinary collectibles, ultra high grade rare cards will continue to appreciate in value, <br />despite the economy, interest rates, gas prices, wars, layoffs and politics.<br /><br />If you have the resources, the courage and the eye...investing in ultra high baseball cards will<br />pay off in ways one could only begin to imagine.<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Martin</b><p>Yawn......pass the popcorn.

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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>That blinding flash of the obvious from the Dorskind &quot;Group&quot; just cost me my vision. Now how will I be able to collect cards?

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />Sean<br /><br />Now that you can no longer see, perhaps someone in your family can put<br />your ultra high grade cards up for auction. Hopefully you have ones that are<br />valuable enough to pay for the seeing eye dog you are sure to need.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Come on guys, it's too early in the morning to get ourselves into a lather.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I wasn't aware of this Bruce--thank you. Same trend for Memory Lane and Mastro?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Sean BH</b><p>See Bruce can be funny:<br /><br />Now that you can no longer see, perhaps someone in your family can put<br />your ultra high grade cards up for auction. Hopefully you have ones that are<br />valuable enough to pay for the seeing eye dog you are sure to need.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>Bruce, what did you win from Goodwin?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Bruce, no asset only goes one way in value. None. Not Bear stock, Lehman stock, housing prices or even baseball cards.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Econ 101 theorem.........<br />

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Posted By: <b>David Goff</b><p>Tom...No Ryder Cup? Thought you'd be there..

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Night...........got 8 out of 12 of the Americans autographs on a nice pin flag. Hoping to go back Sunday.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>jeff,<br />i would agree with bruce (i did just write that....), baseball cards that are scarce (high grade or not) have been pretty consistant over the last 20 years. there is an ebb and flow to the market with "timing" dips, but the graph is pretty much up, up, and away.<br />maybe the scarce card market will go through a correction in the future, but that is speculative at best.<br /><br />baseball cards are still in their infancy compared to other non-traditional forms of investments. <br /><br />that all being said, i'm a collector....and if the market does correct i will be buying much more than i am now.

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Posted By: <b>Eric Pugh</b><p>Bruce, <br /><br />What are your thoughts on rare LOW grade cards? IE honus wagner in the grade of PSA 1 and others like that, or ultra rarities in the grade of 1 or 2. thx.<br /><br />Eric

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>"Those who argue that plastic does not matter...might also suggest that the quality of<br />loans does not matter or that Russia is not a threat to America's safety and security."<br /> <br />some of us care more about the card than the plastic ... <br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>You never seem to do anything except cheerlead. <br /><br />Armchair commentary is easy. Perhaps it's time to stop talking, take the shrink-wrap off your wallet and actually use it...<br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>I have to agree with Bruce, ultra high grade pre-war is selling for insane money.<br /><br />I personally collect low grade stuff and can appreciate true rarity much more than grade rarity, but I can't argue against recent sales results. Nice call Bruce.

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Posted By: <b>Alan U</b><p>IMHO, the ULTRA-high grade cards do seem to have a high rate of appreciation and sell for some unbelievable prices, but I also believe they have a possiblity of taking a big dive in value due to the following:<br /><br />-Am I the only one that believes most ULTRA-high grade vintage cards have been altered in some way (pressed, trimmed, cleaned up, etc)? For some reason, it's just hard to believe so many high condition cards could have came out of cigarette, candy packs, etc so nice and clean. <br /><br />-With the publication of the book "The Card" some of this is coming to light and a bigger more widespread scandal (maybe with the auction houses?) of some sort could really hurt the values of these cards.<br /><br />-Alan <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Who did you get to sign the flag? Obviously not Tiger, I take it. I don't want to steer this thread too far off-course, so feel free to drop me a line privately if you'd care to share.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>maybe Alan (and I feel the same way about them being 'cleaned' up), but we're not seeing it yet. 'The Card' has been out for awhile now and card doctoring is nothing new.<br /><br />The prices blow my mind, and they happen over and over again. If I was in it only for the money, I would be all about high grade and filling the top Registry guys' want list.<br /><br />This is actually a good topic for discussion. I think the Bruce jokes have been done to death (guilty myself), and yes he comes off very arrogant (no offense Bruce), but he does make a good point.<br />

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>The $273,000 reported price for the Brunners Bread Cobb is amazing. Approximately how many of the card exist, regardless of condition?<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>i know the thread is about "ultra high condition cards", but my point in my earlier post was that the real upward push is in scare cards. there are two types of scarcity, scarce period and scarce in "x" condition. <br /><br />both types of scarcity have done very well over a 20 year period. which type of scarcity you collect (or don't) is a personal choice.<br /><br />this is fact, imo it's not really debatable.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If I had to guess on how many D304 Cobbs there are in existence I would venture to guess 100-200....that's just a guess though but I bet it's fairly accurate...

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Posted By: <b>Shawn Chambers</b><p>We feel the real value lies in the Bruces' pun.<br /><br />There's Real Dough Is In Rare Ultra High Condition Cards (ignoring the fact the title has errors) they proceed to mention Brunner's Bread...dough, bread get it...get it...<br /><br />We would rather watch a bad Foghorn Leghorn cartoon <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />Shawn

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>You're correct. Your statement can be applied perfectly to any form of collectible. If turning a future profit is at least in the back of your mind (even for the sake of your family's security), your words can and should be taken as great advice.

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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>"The $273,000 reported price for the Brunners Bread Cobb is amazing"<br /><br />Actually it went higher, with the juice it exceeded $320,000

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I do agree but......<br /><br />270k for high condition (low pop) could really be a downside if 2 didn't show up for the next sale...<br /><br />Get that same card in a 4 holder for about 20k and I think it's a much wiser investment....but I have been wrong before.....

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"The PSA 8 Cobb for example, realized over $270,000."<br /><br />I have no idea if there is any merit to this theory or not, but Ive spoken to at least one person who believes that the consignor, who decided to auction the cards to free up funds for another purchase that fell through (an auction that he did not win), would bid whatever it took to purchase the d304s back himself. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Sso the person that consigned them might have bought them back? That's interesting. I personally have no issue with that kind of thing but it is sort of ironic.....I guess the stock in my D304 Cobby/Martens might have gone up a little.....<br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=pd304cobb.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/pd304cobb.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I was fortunate to win the Tango lot last night and it looks like the final bid prices on the website DO INCLUDE the buyers premiums......still some pretty healthy prices....best regards

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />According to the Goodwin site, the $273K includes the buyers premium.<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>The Cobb sold for over 320k with the juice. To address Corey's question, my guess is that there are probably somewhere in the 100-150 range total, maybe less.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Unless there is a mix mash of the way the web and lots are described, as far as winning bids, the D304 Cobb did not sell for 320k it sold for the 270k.....At least the lot I won shows the winning bid WITH the BP included.......still a healthy price tag....

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Some days I wish there were a few more boards on net54.<br /><br />One for vintage graded cards would be nice... get that crap off of<br />here.<br /><br />And one for 'Real Dough' or high dollar value cards would be good,<br />again, getting that off of this fine board.<br /><br /><br />Some of my favorite, most treasured cards have little monetary <br />value. I like them, because of the history of who the player<br />was, what was happening in his career when the card was issued,<br />something about the card issue, or a combination of those<br />factors. IT ISN'T ABOUT THE DOLLAR VALUE OF THE CARD. And for<br />those of you who are in it for the money, you're missing out on<br />a great hobby, ball card collecting.<br /><br />I understand the use of 'whilst', I'm fine with that. "Only<br />kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the<br />right to use the editorial 'we'." Mark Twain. So Bruce, kindly<br />cure the tapeworms, or post a youtube link for your coronation.<br /><br /><br /><br />and one solidarity edit...<br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><b>NOTICE:</b> From this point on, Net54 members are requested to e-mail Frank their topics for approval before posting.<br /><br />Thank you.

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>"I have no idea if there is any merit to this theory or not, but Ive spoken to at least one person who believes that the consignor, who decided to auction the cards to free up funds for another purchase that fell through (an auction that he did not win), would bid whatever it took to purchase the d304s back himself."<br /><br />JK,<br /><br />My only response to your statement is that I very much hope Goodwin is not that stupid as to have a rigged sale with the Feds taking a close look at fraud in the hobby. If in fact this was a legitimate sale at $273K, then the bidding records will show underbids from real purchasers (who presumably have a history of collecting this sort of thing) and money changing hands to pay for the item, from a source that has have no direct or indirect connection to the consignor.<br /><br /><br /><br><br>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>With all due respect a little tolerance of other's views and wishes goes a long way too. Who cares if others want to collect high grade? It's their money....

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />First, I have no inside info. Second, my comment in no way implied that this was a rigged sale. Only that the consignor would bid any price to win the items back - not that there werent legit underbids.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>frank,<br />your opinion surprises me, i did not know you felt that way.<br /><br />i think there are less than 100 d304 cobbs....way less, but that is a guess.....a guess that with the current prices, i believe more would come to market.<br /><br />leon, regarding the fallout you mentioned.....i agree that there could be dips, which i look at as a stitch in time (timing is a lot in an auction driven environment), but overall performance is again up, up, and away. <br />i am not saying that a 20k "4" may not be a better investment than a 300k "8", i'm really not giving any investment advice.....i'm just saying that the scarce card market (d304 do apply) is very strong with no legitimate correction in the last 20 years. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>lol, Andy.

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>JK,<br /><br />I don't mean to imply you had inside info. Your post made it clear you were just repeating something you were told and that you had no idea if it was true. <br /><br />Hypothetically, IMO ANY auction where the consignor bought the card back is not a legitimate sale. And, again hypothetically, if such a circumstance was to happen with the knowledge and consent of the auction house, then I would characterize it as a rigged sale. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Wait I'm confused. (and not just because of the poor grammar)<br /><br />Is Russia a threat to the card collecting hobby? :shrug:

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>In <i>Russia</i> , the card collecting hobby threatens <i>you</i> ! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Just what was Stalin's rookie card anyway?

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>1916 Smirnoff's "Cavalcade of Stars"

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><img src="http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/3/3a/YakovSmirnoff.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Are you sure? I thought anything before the revolution in 1917 would have been a minor league card.

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Good point. The 1916 issue was of the "Future Star" variety. I could have made that a lot funnier, but wouldn't want to risk offending anyone.

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>I've got a high grade Trotsky for sale. (One of Russia's most wanted!)

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Yakov! He brings back memories of Night Court.<br /><br />How "1985" is that sweater? Rumor has it that Yakov fought Heathchliffe Huxtable in a death match for that thing.

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p><br /><br />&lt;&lt;I've got a high grade Trotsky for sale.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Am I correct to assume it's a Mexican League card?

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"PUTIH KOLEKTS TOLCTOU"<br /><br />(Putin collects Tolstois)<br /><br /><br /><br><br>_ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ _ <br /><br />Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>If the consignor has second thoughts and wants to buy their cards back and is willing to pay the BP to do it, what is so wrong?<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />As long as he wins the card - you are correct. If he does not win the card, then he may have artificially bid up the final price to the detriment of the ultimate winner and to his own benefit. Its a fine line between legitimately wanting to win your card back and shilling.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if the consignor is permitted to buy back his cards, that is another way of saying it is a reserve auction. In that case, it should state "reserve auction" in the rules. That is something that can not be hidden from the bidders.<br /><br />Thanks for the heads up...I really have to quit sniffing glue.

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Wow, two typos in a Barry Sloate post. Stop the presses.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I feel like locking the thread so Barry can't correct his typos....Now THAT would be torture... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It's done...!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><i>Cannot</i>, not <i>can not</i>.<br /><br />Correct?<br /><br />Edited to add: Also, <i>heads-up</i>, not <i>heads up</i>, whether a noun or an adjective.

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Cor rect.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Both "cannot" and "can not" are acceptable.<br /><br />I corrected two others, so you must have missed one. Not a good day for me. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>I'm going by Webster's, which lists <i>cannot</i> as preferred, and the AP style manual, which lists <i>cannot</i>.<br /><br />This must be captivating for 90 percent of the board.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>In any case where there are two usages, one will be preferred. It doesn't mean that the other is incorrect (we are putting everyone to sleep).<br /><br />You know, I can't remember any situation in which I spelled "cannot" as one word. I never even thought about it. Live and learn.

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Auctions that are legitmately run disclose all information in an auction house's possession that a reasonably prudent bidder would want to know about the item. And if I'm bidding on an item, I sure as blazes would want to know if I am competing against the consignor, regardless if he is paying the BP. And why would I want to know this? Because it might cross my mind that as a practical matter no matter what I bid I will not win. The great majority of consignors who decide to buy back their own items do not do it because they had a sudden change of heart whether to sell. They do it because all along there was a secret undisclosed reserve. If the reserve is not met, the consignor will feel he has established a new market level for the item, to be taken advantage of at some future date when he gives it another shot to try to reach his reserve. And guess what? Poof, the item more often than not will magically appear at auction within the next several years, often with the same auction house that "sold" it the first time and usually accompanied with some fanciful tale why the delighted buyer of a few years back has decided to sell.<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>"In Soviet Union, cards buy you!"

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Thanks for getting my reference! I wasn't sure if anybody knew that one.

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Posted By: <b>Eric Pugh</b><p>excellent points Corey.

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Jodi, I got it. I'm not really in the habit of posting Yakov pictures for no reason.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Corey's points are very significant; alas, the chances of many (if any) auction houses and consignors actually following through on them are nil.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Frank: "Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'." Mark Twain--thanks for the LOL moment this a.m.<br /><br />Have to disagree with you on content, tho. Lots of people collect slabbed cards and lots care about the money aspects. To each his own (even if they are just dead wrong <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ). <br /><br />I have to wonder what Borat would say about our hobby:<br /><br />Jak sie masz? My name-a Borat. Today we visit with American men who pay large moneys for little cards of pictures other men. These men must be make a sexy time with each other, yes? Man spend $270,000 for one card! Enough to buy every prostitute in Astana and still have money to hire men to kill my neighbor Nursultan Tuyakbay. He is pain in my a**. I get a window from a glass, he must get a window from a glass. I get a step, he must get a step. I get a clock radio, he cannot afford. Great success! <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Adam - well done! I'm on the floor.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well I'm ok with folks disagreeing with me... haven't fussed at a<br />one of you.<br /><br />And maybe a few folks are ok with me not agreeing with them? Or<br />maybe not.<br /><br /><br /><br />But think about it. "There's real dough in rare ultra high <br />condition _________ ." And fill in the blank. Cars, aircraft,<br />canceled stock certificates, coins, dolls, diamonds, boats,<br />jewelry, arrowheads, pottery, books, campaign buttons, firearms,<br />autographs, movie posters, Kentucky Derby glasses, art... There's<br />great value in anything that is rare and in ultra high condition.<br />So what is the great revelation there??<br /><br />I didn't even pick on the double verb in the thread title. The real<br />dough is in, or There's real dough in... but not There's real dough<br />is in... <br /><br />I'd rather read a back combination thread about T206s. Still, I've<br />chimed in now, so I'm at peace, you guys go ahead!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />And one solidarity edit

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Posted By: <b>Eric Pugh</b><p>Bruce, <br /><br />you always say "high grade rarities". Sincerely would like to know your team's opinion on lower graded scarcities (ie - honus t206 in psa 1, etc). thx<br /><br />Eric

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Is the evidence substantial enough now that high grade vintage sportscards are a good investment?<br /><br />Is the evidence enough that prices are relatively insensitive to economic conditions?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't think you can generalize by saying "high grade cards". Check out the T206 PSA 8 prices.....I can buy them for about 50% of what they were 2 yrs ago...And I understand fully the "pop report" too......<br /><br />So, if you were to say "Are certain high grade cards good investments?" I would say "yes". I would NOT say ALL of them are though....<br /><br />For me, I prefer true rarity over condition rarity but that is beside the point. What do you think is going to happen when the hundreds of vintage cases (I presume)of Larry Fritsch's (RIP) cards come to market? I would say those low pop high grade 50's-80's might have a big problem......but only if value is a concern....regards

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><i>What do you think is going to happen when the hundreds of vintage cases (I presume)of Larry Fritsch's (RIP) cards come to market?</i><br /><br />PSA responds with grades 8.0, 8.1, 8.2, 8.3, 8.4, etc.?

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Like anything else, high grade cards as a class are a mixed bag. <br /><br />I'll take straight rarity over condition rarity every time; no worries about pop reports, hoards, some grader having a brain fart and "minting" another one, or some shady character having altered the card before the slabbers got hold of it. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Simple concept: To get great prices, you gatta have strong demand. Rare is all good and everything, ultra high grade sure is nice, but without demand are poor prices.<br /><br />Just because you have a vintage PSA one-of-one doesn't guarantee a million dollars, even if its a major HOFer.<br /><br />Example: I have a couple Ruth 1920's Exhibits both PSA 5 - only like 3 or less in that grade or higher. Probably get $2.5 - 3k at most with big time auction. But a T206 Cobb greenie PSA 5 gets at least $4.5k when there are 30somthing in PSA pop reports (allegedly).<br /><br />steve

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Everyone talks about these incredible record-breaking prices as if they're gospel. I'd like to see the bidding records for some of these auctions. And the checks that were sent in to the auction houses to pay for these cards. <br /><br />There's currently a federal criminal investigation underway concerning fraud in the baseball card auction business. Are hobbyists still not convinced that there is a great incentive for certain consignors and auction houses to engage in shill bidding to not only defraud buyers but also to create a false impression over the current state of the market -- so that when the same card gets sold in the future the fake previous sales price is used as a touchstone?

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>jeff, those concerns are legitimate.....but they are not excluse to the baseball card world. the same concerns are valid in any auction enviroment.<br /><br />fine art, coins, stamps, any liquidation sale.....which is what an auction really is.<br /><br />are the feds investigating? yes. does the problem exist? probably.<br /><br />is the problem so widespread that most auction sales are not legit? i don't think so. <br /><br />in general, i take things at face value until proven otherwise. no proof of anything has been stated. <br /><br />that said, i'm sure this has happened in the past and will in the future....i would respectfully suggest that a bidder should not bid more than he/she is willing to pay for a card. if that suggestion is followed, the point becomes moot.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Is the evidence substantial enough now that high grade vintage sportscards are a good investment?"<br /><br />It's not enough for the card to be high grade, or for that high grade to be a low pop for that grade, what you want is a scarce card first, followed by low pop for that grade. <br /><br />In short, I think when Bruce said "Rare Ultra High Condition," the "Rare" was modifying "Card" not "Ultra High Condition." <br /><br><br>_ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ _ <br /><br />Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>FYI, I just spoke to a friend who won several of the D304s and he was NOT the consignor.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Corey,<br />You make some good points.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"in general, i take things at face value until proven otherwise. no proof of anything has been stated."<br /><br />Andy, when you look on VCP and see a certain card in PSA 7 that has sold for x dollars, plus or minus 5%, ten times in a row -- and then it sells for 3x that is called circumstantial proof that something stinks. Unfortunately, it happens a lot in the baseball card auction world. <br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I tend to agree with you as to what Bruces were referring to. The responses that were the latest in this thread were to Jim C....From previous posting on the board it seems Bruce does care about the history and the cards, and likes them in high grade, whereas Jim C mainly cares about the # on the plastic and not the cards or the history, at least I have never seen any of his posts about those things........and I am not saying anything bad about collecting by the # on the flip if that is what moves you. However, when that number gets crowded by other numbers that are the same or higher, then the value will go down, generally speaking (supply vs demand)..And that was the basis for the latest discussion...best regards

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...You and I are on the same page. My post was in response to Jim C's effort to broaden what I think was the very narrow scope of Bruce's post to cover all high grade card, including 1968 Topps basketball commons in PSA 9 condition.<br><br>_ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ _ <br /><br />Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: <b>larry</b><p>perception and # of people collecting a card is what drives the price<br />1952 topps mantles are hardly rare yet the price keeps going up in 7 or better MANY COLLECTORS OF 52s and Mantle<br />there are at least 50 t206 wagners and in poor 1 it keeps going up<br />PERCEPTION of rarity<br />amany many examples of these kind of prices<br />yet when a card is rare like 1961 dice game less then 5 in existence or 1967 stand ups thick version less than 10<br />even when it comes to mantle the price doesnt really move<br />not many collectors and not widespread knowledge of the issues<br />Id rather have a set of dice games then a set of 52s anytime<br />if money was no object<br />

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Posted By: <b>Scott Fandango</b><p><img src="http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/3/3a/YakovSmirnoff.jpg"><br /><br /><br />is that Mr Mint in his Glory Days?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Corey the way I read it was since the seller of the (D304's) <br />did not win the item he was freeing the cash up for he would buy back his D304's at any price.<br /><br />I think that was what JK was insinuating.<br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />Edited for clarity.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Andrew</b><p>What do people think of the Pacific Coast Biscuit Peckinpaugh PSA 7 hammer price, which was $3614 before the juice? Demand for PCL is very high these past few years, so I thought a NM example would have fetched much more.<br><br>"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>"Andy, when you look on VCP and see a certain card in PSA 7 that has sold for x dollars, plus or minus 5%, ten times in a row -- and then it sells for 3x that is called circumstantial proof that something stinks. Unfortunately, it happens a lot in the baseball card auction world."<br /><br />jeff, i think your example is illustrating one of two things. <br />1. "must have" thinking on the part of two bidders (silly snipes come to mind)<br />2. two bidder not aware of market value<br /><br />both occur in auctions. <br /><br />could it be a sham? sure it could. anything is possible. but that example, even if there are numerous similar examples, does not lead me to believe that it was a crooked auction. <br /><br />collector's focus will change. some pop in and some pop out, that's what i was talking about when i said timing is everything in an auction.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>there has been a STEEP drop-off in T-206 PSA 8 cards over the past 12 months. This has been felt in PSA 5-7 cards, too, but many of the low population T-206 commons in PSA 8 have not been hitting fairly stagnant [or declining] asking prices for some time now.<br /><br />For example, in the latest Mastro auction, a T-206 PSA 8.5 NM/MT+, population one with none graded higher only hit $4k. I remember people trying to get $10K+ for pop. 1 PSA 8 commons from T-206 in '06 and '07.<br /><br />So it is not a broad-felt appreciation, from my perspective.

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p>This has been an interesting thread with a wide range of perspectives.<br /><br />Our original comment on rare ultra high grades was limited to pre World War II<br />cards. Whilst many Topps cards command very high prices- the population is always<br />changing and, in some cases, an event will occur which will affect value- such as a <br />player being admitted to the Hall of Fame or a "find"<br /><br />This is generally not the case with pre-war high grade type cards. <br />In our view, T 206s are a world on to themselves Whilst there are<br />probably more than 1000 collectors of the T206 set, there are probably less <br />than 10 who collect PSA 7 and above. At least 15% of the cards in the<br />set have only 1 or 2 examples that grade 8 or above. <br /><br />Unlike other sets, there are dozens of T 206s of minor leaguers who have very few name<br />recognition and completing the set is a massive exercise. For type collectors, regardless<br />of the grade T 206 is easy. <br /><br />When large group of cards appears at once (i.e. Steve Novella earlier this summer) and many of the cards<br />have unrealistically high reserves it is not surprising to see a negative impact on pricing.<br /><br />Cracker Jacks, to a lesser extent, are subject to flat or downward pricing because there are large number of high grade cards available- most 1915 CJs, even in PSA 8 are not rare.<br /><br />Other sets like E 93, E 94 R333, R328 are rare or relatively rare i ultra high grades.<br />When a HOF is auctioned- prices almost rise with each subsequent auction.<br /><br />Finally, the "through the roof prices" that certain HOF cards realize can often be traced to the three whales<br />and a dozen other specialized collectors. As long as this "special population" of $1 million a year <br />spenders remains in the 10-25 person range, prices will remain very strong. If two-five whales and baby whales lose interest the way Copeland and others have then you may witness a very different scenario.<br /><br />Enjoy whatever you collect<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List<br />

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Posted By: <b>LetsGoBucs</b><p>Finally, the "through the roof prices" that certain HOF cards realize can often be traced to the three whales<br />and a dozen other specialized collectors. As long as this "special population" of $1 million a year <br />spenders remains in the 10-25 person range, prices will remain very strong. If two-five whales and baby whales lose interest the way Copeland and others have then you may witness a very different scenario.<br />----------------------------<br />We've had this thread in similar forms many times. I think this statement above shows why there is more "risk" with high grade baseball cards. I agree that as long as there are the 10-20 individuals putting seven figures into cards every year that there will be appreciation in card prices for the "best".<br /><br />But if you compare those 10-20 to art collectors, or stamp collectors, or coin collectors then suddenly there is a different perspective. The main question to ask is....Will there be more or less seven figure collectors in the future? Personally I think there will be less. I can remember in the early 90's where basically there were no buyers of most material over $5000. I also remember the flight of investors from Stamps in the late 1970's/early 80's and I believe we will see the same thing in baseball cards. <br /><br />My own opinion is that the best investment is a combination of true rarity combined with popularity (ie HOF), and that condition is third on that list. But the nice thing about this debate is that time will tell <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206 Guy--I did say vintage sportscards--you may consider 1968 vintage but I don't.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>There are also some very interested very rich collectors out there who pay a lot for cards. I am dubious of the claimed results from some of the auctioneers out there; others not. Perhaps what we need are more live auctions so everyone can see the bidding under way?<br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc