Here we go again with the fake Wag

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>This guy never gives up does he, now he is on ESPN..<br /><br /><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3584562&categoryId=3286128&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3584562&categoryId=3286128&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1</a>

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>How strange that ESPN would air this, given as how the network has established itself as a beacon of journalistic integrity.<br /><br />Doesn't it seem as if that video clip was picked up in the middle of the story and ended prematurely? Or is that done on purpose in hope that you'll subscribe to something and be able to watch the complete report? &lt;&lt;Reaching for my credit card right now.&gt;&gt;

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Posted By: <b>ROBERT ADAMS JR</b><p>GREAT negotiation ! I,ll give you $10,000 . Nope , want $ $20,000 . And THATS it ! Like he said , Gee Whiz ! Plus want to give a weak GO BUCKEYES !

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>You're correct Rob...one must subscribe to ESPN Insider to see the entire clip.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>I"m holding out for a Blue Eyed Wagner with an underprint on the back.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Are we to assume these two guys are still doubting all the naysayers, and are still holding out hope it is real?<br /><br />Egad.

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Phil Weiss has a real one coming up, SCG 40, along with a lot more.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.prwauctions.com/calendar/calendar.htm#nov" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.prwauctions.com/calendar/calendar.htm#nov</a>

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>ESPN. Isn't that the spelling bee/paintball channel, or am I thinking of Cartoon Network?<br /><br />As the old saying goes, I sat down to watch a boxing match and a spelling bee preempted.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>I like the Tebow story better, an athlete giving back without having to be asked.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> You would think by now he would've either given up because no one wants it or did research to find out why it isnt real if he somehow actually still believed it was real. I cant believe a journalist would put him on tv without doing a little research. Im sure one of the first few things that would pop up on a search engine would be his name and the story behind it.<br /><br /> Just once I'd like to see someone who knew what they were talking about interview this guy. I have the same exact reprint he does,interview me sometime and I'll tell you why someone who's collected cards since he was six has this same exact card sitting in a penny sleeve on top of his desk instead of somewhere a little more safe<br /><br /><img src="http://a610.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/106/l_0538d43b50f38f62527b64177652f399.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://a969.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/39/l_7dc2c86c4dccb12ffd29efa4cedf4bd8.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Wow, John, awesome card. Would you be willing to accept 150K for it?

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Sorry Jeff,I'm going to have to pass because this one is special and has grown on me.It's a blank back with a piedmont overprint and a sovereign underprint so far under that it cant be seen with the naked eye and microscopes refuse to look at it

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p><br /><br /> Anyone know how to reach the espn guy to send them this cincy enquirer article from 4 years ago with this quote:<br /><br /><br /> &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Almost immediately, a collector offered Cobb $10,000 for Honus. Which got Cobb to thinking: "Why take that when it could be worth more? If he goes for 10 grand, he'll go for 20. I have to find out more about this card," Cobb recalls. "I just put it away." &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br /><br /> In the video he claims he offered it to the guy for 20k and he said "nope!"<br /><br /><br /> <br /><a href="http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/05/23/baseballcard23.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/05/23/baseballcard23.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>Paul D</b><p>john/z28jd ----&gt; your statement "It's a blank back with a piedmont overprint" is wonderfully funny, near brilliance is what it is... Paul D.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>lol 1984 and he has no idea who Wagner is but he will pay 1800.00<br />for a card.<br /><br /><br /><br />meanwhile we see all his 80's and 90's crap.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Well put, Steve. That's the thing that got me the most. <br /><br />"Did you know who Wagner was?"<br /><br />"Naaaaaaaah!" <br /><br />Why on earth would you pony up $1800, then?! And I find it equally hard to believe that this guy was walking around with 18 large in his pocket in 1984!!! Actually, the best part of this ridiculous story is when Cobb said he didn't have the $2500 asking price, so he "fished around in his van" (or whatever) for the $1800! How is this moron getting ANY airtime?! If I were him, I would have snapped up that fake $10K offer in a fake hurry. I then would have called a genuine cleaning service to clean up that genuine house of skank that I live in!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Seth</b><p>ESPN full story <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3587050&categoryId=3286128&n8pe6c=2">link</a>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Despicable journalism...and two experts looked at it and said the paper is consistent with the period.<br /><br /> Please also note that the two owners don't want to leave the card with PSA for an hour, but have no problem leaving it with Bob Connelly for months.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If I remember correctly the back might be a period back glued onto the front(reprint)....so the paper guys could have tested the back and deemed the back to be period paper... Not much else to say concerning the whole silly episode, otherwise, which hasn't already been said.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know Leon, but on the video you could see one of the experts looking at the card under a microscope, and the front was face up. And any expert worth his salt would check the front and back.<br /><br />And I like the way Connelly played the race card...if they were blue haired and blonde eyed (whatever) this never would have happened.<br /><br />Sure, what collector would possibly want to buy a real T206 Wagner from an African American? Couldn't possibly happen.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Connelly is a joke,he said he could appraise the card but not authenticate it when I talked to him a couple years ago about it. Part of their proof is its a blue Piedmont back card but my scan above shows my reprint is a blue back as well so that theory goes out the window.Its just an old reprint. I got mine in 1991 after buying the last 3 t206 cards some guy had,and back then it looked old so I figured it was from the 70's,no earlier. I cant believe the guy talks to the head of a respected grading company and a guy who doesnt have another old card and gives them both a 50/50 chance of being right. Also as someone said,the fact Connelly gets to keep the card for months but a grading card company cant have it for an hour to grade while you wait? Heres an idea,take pictures of the whole thing,the card front and back,you handing the card in,you waiting,you getting the card back and finally the disappointed look on your face when you see their assessment.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>i dont know what happened to my other post but in a nutshell....<br /><br /><br />wouldnt PSA allow an exception in this particular case? <br /><br />why not allow these boneheads through the secret door? <br /><br />the card is worth $1.5 million theoretical dollars, right?<br />

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>i dont know what happened to my other post but in a nutshell....<br /><br /><br />wouldnt PSA allow an exception in this particular case? <br /><br />why not allow these boneheads through the secret door? <br /><br />the card is worth $1.5 million theoretical dollars, right?<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>PSA would never bend their hard and fast ethical rules for anyone, so just forget about that idea.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I've seen numerous cases where people have brought up obvious reprints of Wagner, etc. to the big grading companies at shows and the companies have told them simply "save your money." I remember being at PSA's table 7-8 years ago - exact scenario happened. I was talking with Rocchi, and a fellow walked up with a couple of cards, including a Wagner. We both told him, please, save your money. <br /><br />Talking about the age of the paper - would it be that difficult to erase the front of an authentic T206 common and print a Wagner on top of it? The front printing would be off, but everything else would be perfect...and would pass the age test.

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Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>I saw this today and wondered what the regulars on this board had to say about it. It made net54 look bad imo. I think the only reason ESPN covered this is so that they could play the race angle,(otherwise there's not much to the story). I know the quotes posted from net54 were excerpts,but they were presented in a way that fed the race question. I do agree with the NY Daily news guy that this board probably should not attack those guys personally. <br /><br />The "paper expert" said he examined the front also and did not believe the card to be skinned.<br /><br />that being said, I do believe the card is a reprint,otherwise one of you guys would have already bought it.

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Posted By: <b>Red</b><p>If you look hard enough you will find an expert that will tell you what you want to hear. The key is to avoid experts in the field of the item you need authenticated. On something like this it would also help if the expert from the other field is blind.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>J. McMurry- while I agree with you that a few of the Net54 comments cited on ESPN crossed the line, when that thread was active a couple of years back either Mr. Cobb or his buddy came on the board and posted. He became quite angry with us and suggested we were giving them a hard time because they were black. That is when the board became a bit contentious.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>What irresponsible journalism on the part of ESPN.<br /><br />Why not show the card to an actual HOBBY expert, as opposed to a printer? <br /><br />The sad thing about this is that you could like up a hundred - no, a thousand - T206 experts and all of them would explain that the card is fake. ESPN has access to a prewar card expert in Keith Olbermann, why not get his opinion on the card? I'm sure he could explain to these two gentleman the half-dozen or so reasons why the card is fake, along with the half-dozen or so reasons why the owners' theory of the card being a "Honus Wagner error card" doesn't hold water.<br /><br />The owners of the card continue to show the card to people who don't know anything about cards, and all of them say "Yep, it's real." They show it to people who DO know about cards, and all of THEM say "Nope, it's fake." Who to believe?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Red</b><p>Since they feel so strongly that their card is real then maybe they would be interested in buying more examples of the same card. You can easily create cards that have the exact same physical properties as their card. Their experts can run the same scientific tests that they ran on their card and the results will be the same. Asking $2500 but will take $1800 each delivered with SASE.

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Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Barry- Thanks for the reply, I knew there was another side to the story and I would love to read the original thread. The main problem here is ESPN and their slanted presentation. I guess all I'm trying to say is be careful what you post so as not to give them any ammunition.

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Posted By: <b>Dave S</b><p>A cluttered basement in Cinncy or a van down by the river?<br /><br />Apologies to Chris Farley for the association.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree, the ESPN story is really awful.

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>like so much of the media does for ratings, espn is keeping racism alive, it stinks and shame on espn.<br /><br />i think i'll boycott them from november to march.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>In case anyone, like ESPN, is interested in facts, the following timeline can be verified by searching Net54 and PSA/CU thread and newspaper articles.<br /><br />1) This card was offered on eBay and there was much discussion about the card. People on both boards, plus others including Bill Mastro, said the card either looked like a fake or was a fake. eBay pulled the card and said it had to be graded before it could be put on eBay again.<br /><br />2) A later article in the Cincinnati Enquirer first included a picture of the card owners (duly note that there was an earlier Enquirer article). Until this time, the earlier mentioned posters, and presumably eBay, had no knowledge of the owners' race when forming their opinions about the card.<br /><br />3) In an even later newspaper article, the owners' lawyer was quoted as suggesting that he believed the reason the owners could not find a buyer is because of their race. This was the first time race was publicly brought up as an issue in the problem selling the card. <br /><br />If ESPN wishes to verify this timeline they are welcome to, as all the information is available online. <br /><br />Of further note, at the time they were made, I thought one or two of the members' race related posts (granted, made in reaction to the lawyers above mentioned quote) were unfortunate and plain stupid. If you're trying to make a reasoned case of why your side is correct, you don't do bone headed crap like that, even if it is only in jest. <br /><br />////<br /><br />As an interesting endnote: PSA does not allow the owner(s) of a card to be present during the authentication and grading process (well documented point of contention for the owners of this card), and PSA does not allow the graders/authenticaors to know who submitted he cards for grading/authentication. What does this mean? The PSA grader/authenticator does not know the race of the owner of the card he is examining. If the owners were to submit the card today to PSA, the grader/authenticator would be examining the card with no knowledge of the race of the owners. No doubt PSA gets many supposed T206 Honus Wagners submitted for examination, so to the PSA graders with no knowledge of submitter identities, this particular card would merely be one of many submitted potential Wagners to be examined and objectively judged as genuine or reprint. In other words, race of owner can be entirely removed as a factor or influence in the expert, reliable examination of this card if the owners want it to be removed. If the owners want the card examined without their race being influence on the final judgment, it's quite simple to do: Submit the card to PSA. If they have something against PSA, then submit it to SGC-- same owner blind examination process.<br /><br />As the above illustrates, there is no race, sex, creed, sexual preference, political affiliation, religious belief, nationality, level of income or even type of music preference issue involved in the reliable authentication of a trading card, except as someone tries to make it an issue. The examiners of the cards know none of this personal information. I submitted an autograph for examination to PSA/DNA and not once was asked my race or religion. As the submission and payment was done via company name and payment account, they did not even know my sex. I can attest first hand that none of the above listed personal information was known by the PSA/DNA expert when he or she examined and formed judgment about the signature on my baseball.<br /><br />If these personal qualities were seriously a positive or negative influence on the authentication and grading process, the Republicans would be sending all their cards to PSA (Orange County), the Democrats to SGC (New Joisey) and Cowboy fans to Beckett (Dallas). But those things aren't an influence on authentication, and I know a Republican Dallas Cowboys fan from Texas who sends his cards to SGC, a Boston Democrat who sends cards to PSA and a Green Bay Packers fanatic with Wisconsin return address who sent cards to Beckett (Cowboys versus Packers is a longtime rivalry).<br /><br />If it was discovered by the hobby that a grading company used customers' personal information like sex, race and political affiliation to calculate grade and level of authenticity, the company would go under faster than the Titanic, the customers would leave it faster than rats leaving a sinking ship, the value of their products and services would fall faster than WAMU's stock. Just one reason the value of their product would fall is that, with all the selling and reselling and trading, when you buy a graded card you often to usually do not know who was the original submitter. The seller currently on eBay or wherever regularly is not the person who submitted the card for grading and often does not know the identity of the submitter. In other words, the grades on the company's labels would be considered by both buyers and sellers to be unreliable to worthless. This also should illustrate that the hobby does not want covert or overt bigotry in grading or authentication. Rather, it wants objective and unbiased grading and authentication, as the buyers usually do not know who submitted the card.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I would love to see Keith Olberman do a segment on this guy and publicly humiliate him. The guy knows damn well it is fake. Wasn't there a pretty serious accusation that he stole it from somebody's office? Give me a break. He doesn't know Honus Wagner from Adam and decides to buy a beat up piece of cardboard for $1800. Nice story. Total BS from a shameless scammer.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Seth</b><p>I wonder if anyone ever asked him for an invoice (provenance) from where he "purchased" the card.