Help with photo identification - Honus Wagner ?

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Posted By: <b>Seth Nagdeman</b><p>I have a question regarding one of the consignments that came in for the next auction. Usually items are straight forward and easy to identify - not this one... There are two photographs submitted and the person that sent them claims he bought the photos in PA and it's a very early image of Honus Wagner in the photo. I thought it best to post one of the photos and get opinions. Do you think this is Honus Wagner at bat ? If there is any question as to the identification I will return the photos and not put them up for auction. Thanks in advance for your opinion.<br /><br />Seth<br /><br /><img src="http://www.19thcenturyonly.com/net54/photo_id.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No question there is a resemblance, but it's a leap of faith for sure.

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>My feeling is that the individual is not Wagner. The batter's grip is also not consistent with most of the images of Wagner batting that I have seen.

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Posted By: <b>jamie</b><p>that photograph is most likely post 1900- after wagner would have started his professional career

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Not Honus.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>For that to be Wagner the photo would have to be in the 1892-94 range, and likely isn't.

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Posted By: <b>Seth Nagdeman</b><p>It was a long shot! I appreciate the feedback. Sending the photos back.

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Posted By: <b>Eric Pugh</b><p>call me crazy - but i think that is indeed Honus. IMO

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>You are crazy. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />(He made me do it)

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Posted By: <b>Eric Pugh</b><p>you might be a bit correct actually. <br /><br />with that being said, take the timing of the catcher's mask introduction, estimate honus' age in the pic - i think it is a 20 year old honus dammit.<br /><br />it looks just like him. the nose - the facial structure. it's him IMO.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Wagner's professional career began with the Louisville Colonels in 1897.<br /><br />Wagner grew up in a suburb of Pittsburg and quit school at age 12 to work in the coal mines with his father and brothers.<br /><br />The picture and the locale just don't seem to fit with it being Wagner.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Seth Nagdeman</b><p>The person that sent the photos said that they were purchased in Carnegie, PA from a Wagner estate sale arranged by his daughter.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Does the consignor have a sale bill from the estate auction? With a photo like this you're going to have to have good provenance.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>If it's not him it's his twin, because it sure looks like him! Any chance it's one of the brothers....

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Wagner..........

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Posted By: <b>brock</b><p>I think its him.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Can't tell if it's Joe Jackson or Jim Thorpe. Definitely one of the two. I can't believe no one has pointed this out yet but that's Josh Gibson behind that catcher's mask. This photo is loaded with HOFers and legendary non-HOFers!<br /><br />In all seriousness, even if there is a bill of sale from the Wagner estate, why couldn't it just as easily be a photo of a non-Honus Wagner. It does look similar to him, kind of like what one of his relatives would look like, no? It could indeed be a Wagner, just not Honus. <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Nope, I don't think so. Some slight facial resemblance, but everything else about it appears off. Date of photo, setting--(Wagner no farmer), catcher's gear does not appear apropos to early 1890s (although I'm as far from being an expert as can be on that), and batting grip looks wrong to me.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff S.</b><p>Whew that's a close one - looks good IMO. Wags had massive hands.<br /><br /><img src="http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/s054782.jpg" width="500" height="410"><br /><br /><img src="http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/Honus_Wagner_(crop).JPG" width="355" height="342"><br /><br /><img src="http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/409px-Honus_Wagner_1911.jpg" width="409" height="599"><br /><br /><img src="http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/Item_3521_1.jpg" width="500" height="481"><br /><br /><img src="http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/e107wagner.jpg" width="400" height="300">

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>I would go to an online tractor/farm tools site and try dating the tractor. It might be the easiest thing in the picture to date.

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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>Nah.<br /><br />An online tractor dating site, that would be huge here in GA. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />This one is tough, I can see the resemblance but I wonder if he was ever that thin?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The farm implement appears to be one that would be hooked up to a horse, mule, or ox..I think it's most likely an 1890's contraption. The mask also could be 1890s...the glove is not so easy to determine. If this indeed came from the Wagner estate then I say it's probably a Wagner, but is it Honus? He had two baseball playing brothers, but I've never found a picture of them...and I've looked.

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Posted By: <b>samuel</b><p>that's an awfully strong resemblance for a brother. the ears, the large chin, the width of the face, the eyes and eyebrows, everything is consistent. a receipt from the estate sale would be proof enough, in my opinion.

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Posted By: <b>Alan U</b><p>Unfortunately, it appears there are quite a few things that could indicate this is not Wagner, i.e. if the tractor or catchers gear dates to 1915, but to say it's definitely him would be based mostly on speculation.<br /><br />edited for spelling... again

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Posted By: <b>Seth Nagdeman</b><p>He does not have a receipt and claims that it was purchased from the Wagner estate in the 1980's. <br /><br />I gave up on the photos. Without proof of the identity, I cannot sell them in my auction.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff S.</b><p>Found this in the REA 2007 auction - lot #915. Apparently a photo of Wagner at age 10 in 1884 (reprinted in 1923). Wags is quite obvious - if the other boys are his brothers, that may discredit the "photo of Hans' brother" theory.<br /><br />Also, regarding the supposed sale of the photos at the Wagner Estate in the 1980's. That 5-card T206 proof strip with Wagner on it apparently came from that house, found in one of Hans' sweater pockets. If that was an 80's discovery as well, that may give a bit of credence to the consignor's story.<br /><br /><img src="http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/Item_9075_3.jpg" width="500" height="701">

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Posted By: <b>Jeremy W.</b><p>Is that a young Mathewson on the far left?

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy</b><p>Seth,<br /><br />I am doing some research for a family that has some eary photos, your photo is interesting but it really is hard to tell, and most likley as stated above is not Wagner. see my post below, if they send me any more early photos I will let you know<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/567138/thread/1218044022/last-1218051455/Honus+Wagner+Photos" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/567138/thread/1218044022/last-1218051455/Honus+Wagner+Photos</a>

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>How about the guy 3rd from the left on the bottom row? Same crooked nose and big ears...<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g193/hanksta3/scan.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Photo ID is an art as much as a science. Often times it is not black or white whether the image depicts a particular player, but instead a shade of gray. How far toward black that shade of gray becomes depends on the extent of corroborating evidence (e.g., provenance, positive ID of other player(s) in the image who was (were) known to be on the same team as the player at issue, photo process used is consistent with the period the photo is to date from, image came with other items of player at issue). In the case at hand, absent reliable proof the image came from Wagner's estate, I think anybody buying the image believing it depicts Wagner is taking one heck of a leap of faith. Yes, there are resemblences to Wagner. But for me to believe it is him based on resemblence alone, it really has to scream out that it is him. And with this image I don't get that impression. As to the prospective consignor's representation that it originated from a Wagner estate sale, without proof that statement adds little. The person obviously wants it to be Wagner and what better way to convince others it is than to say it originated from his estate.<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Seth Nagdeman</b><p>I returned the photo yesterday. Cannot sell this in my auction because of the lack of provenance. Thank you to all who responded to this post. <br /><br />Seth

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Seth- you did the right thing, because even though there were a few posters who thought it may be Wagner, you need irrefutable proof to sell it. I am always extremely conservative in situations like this because every owner hopes he made a great find, and that often clouds his objectivity.

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Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>i know the issue has been taken care of, but i just wanted to throw in that unless the catcher is a very big man it looks as though he is wearing a chest protector of some kind under his shirt. were chest protectors in use in the late 1890s?

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Bresnahan developed shin guards and a chest protector for catchers while with the Giants 1902 through 1908.

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Along the same lines, does the catcher's mitt look a bit large for the mid 1890's?<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Plus, the Catchers Mask appears to have a sun shield at the top. These were most prevalent in the teens. An enormous stretch (IMO), to attribute this image to Honus Wagner.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Chest protectors are older than 1900 -<br /><br /><img src="http://i1.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/03/e2/389f_1.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Anyone watch the story on the History Channel last night about the coal mining war of the early 20's? Taking a look at the pics of those coal miners there's no way the two guys pictured have ever been close to a coal mine and we do know that Wagner worked the coal mines with his father and brothers.<br /><br />Looks more like Walter Johnson to me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Denny Walsh</b><p>If this is NOT Wagner then the the guy who is in the photo could of been his double. His Facial structure, ears & LOOK at those hands? They are Hugh! The Nose is one thing, but "Honus Like Hands" are really hard to find! <br />Just some thoughts to ponder this further....<br><br>Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>ROBERT ADAMS JR</b><p><a href="http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x160/bobadams123/?action=view&current=photo_id.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x160/bobadams123/photo_id.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><a href="http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x160/bobadams123/?action=view&current=8790.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x160/bobadams123/8790.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> This photo looks eerily similar .

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p> The tractor dates to around 1916 at the earliest assuming it has a internal combustion engine which I think it has. Beautiful image, it sure looks like him.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Beyerle</b><p>Seth- don't know who your consignor is, but I'd be interested in purchasing the photos.

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Posted By: <b>Jeremy</b><p>Chris... if your 1916 date range is right, this guy would have to be a brother of Wagner in my humble opinion. Assuming it is from the estate, time period, and certainly looks like a teen Hans to me... See 1916 Standard Biscuit Photo of Hans...(This photo could have been taken earlier,but the card date ranges 1916) Also, this card is available in the current Mastro Auction - Shameless Plug <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1218596924.JPG"> <br><br>~ Jeremy ~

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Posted By: <b>bob B.</b><p><img src="http://i2.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/57/ag/2d_1.JPG"><br /><br />Look at the batting stances, the feet in particular. (sorry the ebay image is the best I could do on short notice)

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Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>Both the first picture and the one that Jeff posted have the right index finger in the same position.

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Posted By: <b>D. Bergin</b><p>Fascinating thread.<br /><br />Did Honus have a son, maybe a nephew emulating him? The style of the mount does appear to be from the c. 1910's period.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>george gogol</b><p>Not only to the index fingers match, but look at that massive left palm in both pics. He isn't choking up in the later shot, but a lot can change between sandlot and majors. His hands are more telling than his distinct face, kind of like W. Johnson.

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Posted By: <b>Duke42</b><p>Even there seems to be a slight similarity to Honus I doubt it is Wagner in your PA picture. The man in your PA picture seems to be much younger then those Wagner pictures posted to show comparisons. Also it seem the batters index finger seem to be cut off below the finger nail, and it seems to be a posed picture. Unless you're an expert I kinda search out for a Honus Wagner expert for final confirmation.

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Posted By: <b>Seth Nagdeman</b><p>I opened the box that was submitted, posted the photo on Net54 and in less than an hour I went to the post office and returned the photos. I determined that without proof that it's Wagner from the consignor in my opinion the photos could be of any kids playing baseball.

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Posted By: <b>Duke42</b><p>I think that was the right move you did...when in doubt don't risk on a hunch.