T206 JACK DUNN....Babe Ruth's 1st manager [Archive]

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07-29-2008, 07:27 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/baltimorejackdunn.jpg"> John Joseph Dunn pitched for the Brooklyn Bridegrooms in the late 1890's. In 1899 he won 23 games while losing 13.....his best season in the Majors. By 1910, when ATC issued this card of him, his playing days were over. He was now the Manager of the Baltimore Orioles of the Eastern League. Dunn had a good eye for BB talent, and it was he, who first discovered a local St. Mary's High School kid by the name George Ruth. The Baltimore Orioles were a formidable team when Ruth was pitching for them and were consistent winners of the newly named International League. However, in 1914 Dunn had to sell Ruth....and, legend has it that he referred to Ruth as "my $10,000 Babe"....and so, the "Babe" became Ruth's nickname. Dunn's Baltimore Orioles continued to dominate the International League, as he discovered many players, who went on to become Major League stars. Two of these were George Earnshaw and Lefty Grove. From 1920 to 1924, Lefty Grove won 109 games and lost only 36 for Dunn's team. There are many more interesting stories regarding the non-HOFers in the T206 set. Well, we can not flip these T-cards over to read their bios; but, we certainly can search the internet and read all we want to about them. TED Z

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07-29-2008, 07:36 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldJust tossing that out there 'cause you're itching for a fight, big guy!!!! I agree. That is NOT a horizontal card. And the ones that are horizontal are in series 150. But a poster will disagree here in a bit...

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07-29-2008, 07:59 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThey can argue all they want....I'm more interested in Jack Dunn's story....he's another unheralded T206 Subject. TED Z

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07-29-2008, 08:04 PM

Posted By: Steve DawsonPersonally, I think of the T206 Dunn as a "diagonal" card (his body is coming out of the bottom-right corner after all) <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Steve

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07-29-2008, 08:04 PM

Posted By: RayBShotzGreat stuff as always Ted. RayB

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07-29-2008, 09:33 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldJust to add a bit... Dunn managed in the minors 24 years. He managed Providence in 1905 and 1906. Then Baltimore 1907 through 1914. He moved the Baltimore team to Richmond for the 1915 season, to avoid conflicts with the Federal League. With that conflict gone the following year, he moved back to Baltimore for 1916, and managed them through 1928. His 24 year record, 2107 wins, 1530 loses, for .579. Nine pennants won in 24 seasons. Quite a baseball man...

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07-29-2008, 09:51 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonSo he's a pitcher making an over the shoulder catch a la Willie Mays then? You certainly wouldn't advocate catching a pop up with your left hand turned like that, it's a surefire way to get hit in the face. Not arguing, just wondering.

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07-29-2008, 10:29 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd There is no certain way to know if its a horizontal or not unless you find the corresponding picture it was drawn from that either proves or disproves it. Most people were taught that it wasnt one of the horizontal poses by the t206s gods who wrote the bible but we've proven them wrong before. The way his hands are turned and since he wasnt a catcher,I changed my original thinking on it a couple years ago that it was a horizontal but I would no way argue with someone who thought it wasnt. If someone finds this picture of Dunn I'd hope they would share it with the rest of the class

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07-30-2008, 05:21 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIt can't be a horizontal card because if you imagine his body from the waist down, where would his legs be? Either he's standing and reaching for a pop up, or he's completely prone and lunging through the air. I say that can't be a horizontal pose.

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07-30-2008, 05:51 AM

Posted By: RayBHere's an interesting Dunn/Babe Ruth tidbit: In 1914, shortly after his 19th birthday, Ruth signed a contract with the Baltimore Orioles of the International League. Because Ruth was not yet a legal adult, Orioles owner Jack Dunn became his guardian. In spring training he acquired the distinctive nickname Babe, a reference to his status as “Dunn’s baby,” and to his rookie status and his round-faced, youthful appearance. Batting for the Orioles in his first professional spring training game, Ruth hit a home run into a cornfield well beyond the right field barrier. A newspaper headline the next day read “RUTH MAKES MIGHTY CLOUT,” foretelling the future.

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07-30-2008, 06:54 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for that interesting "tidbit"....this is why I posted this thread. Jack Dunn has a story that has not fully been told. TED Z

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07-30-2008, 08:24 AM

Posted By: Aaron Patton ...Charles Alexander's epic bio on John J. McGraw goes into good detail (from what I remember) about Jack Dunn. Indeed, a fascinating (and very underappreciated) member of baseball lore. Best,

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07-30-2008, 03:13 PM

Posted By: David RSeems horizontal to me unless he's making an over-the-shoulder Willie Mays catch. I agree that without the original picture it's impossible to tell and I also agree that the collecting Gods have no better ability to make this call than any of us unless they had the original picture or some other evidence that we don't.

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07-30-2008, 04:29 PM

Posted By: ClintI think it's very similar to this picture but from the side of course. Remember back then catching with two hands was a must no matter how they were fielding. My vote not horizontal. Clint <img src="http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z186/ksfarmboy/eddroush-1.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1217456916.JPG">

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07-30-2008, 05:33 PM

Posted By: Ed IveyHis facial expression looks too nonchalant to be either a diving horizontal or a Willie Mays grab. Still, I can't fathom catching an oncoming fly ball with hands at that angle. I'm so confused. I will gladly defer to the expertise of Ted and accept the vertical assessment. Is this how Snodgrass muffed his fly ball?

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07-30-2008, 05:59 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonIt's not the catching with two hands I find weird, it's the fact that the only place you see people catching pop ups like that is at a t-ball game.

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07-30-2008, 06:52 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisLet's resolve this ridiculous debate once and for all....here are the six HORIZONTAL cards in the T206 set. American Lithographic printed these six in their 1st (150 Subjects) Series. The 350 and 460 Series do not have any HORIZONTAL cards. Jack Dunn is in the 350 Series. Compare the action poses and the horizon backdrop of any of these six Subjects with the Dunn picture. And, then try to explain how the Dunn card can be classified as a horizontal card ? ? <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a6horizontalt206.jpg"> Now, can we get back to talking about Jack Dunn's career and/or Babe Ruth's early playing days with the Baltimore Orioles ? T-Rex TED

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07-30-2008, 07:30 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonIf you say so. It's an odd pose though.

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07-30-2008, 07:38 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Many times this T206 card of Jack Dunn is incorrectly advertised as a Horizontal T206......not so, the only Horizontal cards in the T206 set are in the 150 Series. Ted, If you're so bothered by the horizontal/vertical discussion, then why raise the issue with the first line of your post?

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07-30-2008, 08:05 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI'm not bothered by the "horizontal/vertical" debate regarding this Dunn card; because, I don't think that anyone can provide a valid argument that it was designed as a horizontal card. Why I brought it up in my initial post here ? I don't really know. It doesn't matter anymore......I have deleted it. TED Z

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07-31-2008, 07:27 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis"If you say so. It's an odd pose though." I'm not just saying so. Note the 6 horizontal T206's. Obviously, they are horizontal designs, not just because of the player's pose. But, because of their horizon artwork. Had American Lithographic intended for this Dunn card to be a horizontal, they would have included backdrop artwork similar to their 6 horizontal cards. Incidently, I don't think that Dunn's pose is "odd". He is simply leaning back to catch a pop fly hit back to the pitcher's mound. Back in the old days, pitchers fielded pop flies hit back in their direction. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/baltimorejackdunn.jpg"> TED Z

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07-31-2008, 07:58 AM

Posted By: paulstrattonMy "If you say so." was in reference to you asking to get back to the Dunn biographical aspect of the thread. Not in any way trying to infer you didn't know what you were talking about Ted. That being said, that's not how a professional baseball player would catch a pop up, and that is why it strikes me as an odd pose.

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07-31-2008, 08:43 AM

Posted By: Jeff S.I don't think it's a horizontal pose, but it does line up correctly if you turn it 90-degrees clockwise. The other 6 horizontal cards all have the name/team on the left side.

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07-31-2008, 09:52 AM

Posted By: Matt<img src="http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/34128.jpg">

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07-31-2008, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Anonymous<img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/baltimorejackdunn.jpg"> <img src="http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/34128.jpg"> I can buy the Shannon. His eyes and arms align. And his body then aligns to his eyes and arms. The problem I have with the Dunn is that his body doesn't line up with his arms and eyes. If it isn't horizontal, he is bending over backwards to catch a ball falling perpendicular to the ground. If it is horizontal, then his arms, body, and eyes all appear to line up correctly.

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07-31-2008, 10:48 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBoy, you were right with this one...... "Just tossing that out there 'cause you're itching for a fight, big guy" TED Z

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07-31-2008, 10:49 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis"he is bending over backwards to catch a ball falling perpendicular to the ground" 1st.....a fly ball does not fall "perpendicular to the ground".....it goes up in an arching trajectory and comes down in an arching trajectory. Therefore, a PITCHER trying to catch a pop fly (or a high fly) near the mound is going to have some difficulty in judging it (and especially if wind is a factor). That appears to be exactly the case in this Dunn pix where he is leaning back in preparation to catch this type of fly ball. 2nd....if Jack Dunn was a 1st baseman, then I might be inclined to consider the "horizontal card" argument. As, he would be in a stretching pose to catch the throw......but, Jack Dunn was a PITCHER during most of his playing career. TED Z

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07-31-2008, 11:12 AM

Posted By: pasIf he was trying to catch a pop up wouldn't his glove be turned the other way?

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07-31-2008, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Brian<<"he is bending over backwards to catch a ball falling perpendicular to the ground" 1st.....a fly ball does not fall "perpendicular to the ground".....it goes up in an arching trajectory and comes down in an arching trajectory. Therefore, a PITCHER trying to catch a pop fly (or a high fly) near the mound is going to have some difficulty in jud- ging it (and especially if wind is a factor). That appears to be exactly the case in this Dunn pix where he is leaning back in prep- aration to catch this type of fly ball.>> If he is leaning back to catch the ball as you suggest, shouldn't his eyes be looking in the same direction that his body is leaning? Well, they aren't. If one judges the direction of the ball from Dunn's eyes/arms, it is falling perpendicular to the ground. If we agree that balls don't fall that way, isn't the only logical conclusion that the ball is where is eyes are looking -- making this a horizontal card. I don't really care either way. If you judge the card's orientation from his eyes/arms, its horizontal. If you judge the card's orientation from his body, its vertical. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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07-31-2008, 11:26 AM

Posted By: Brian Also, the position argument doesn't matter. Pitchers catch bunts that are popped up in a basket fashion, generally falling forward. And firstbasemen catch pop-ups.

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07-31-2008, 11:29 AM

Posted By: pasTry imitating his pose, with the glove FACING you as on the card, and tell me what you think you could catch that way?

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07-31-2008, 11:41 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisPerhaps my imagination is getting carried away here....My thinking is that Jack Dunn is backing off the pitcher's mound, struggling in an awkward manner, to catch a wind blown, sky-high fly that is behind him. If this is so, it is a classic pix of why a pitcher should never field a ball hit in the air in the vicinity of the pitcher's mound. And indeed, in the modern game, the pitcher never fields such fly balls. TED Z

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07-31-2008, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.That Spike Shannon card has always been one of my favorite poses in the set. Very primitive drawing. Gigantic melon. He worked as a Bob's Big Boy sign in the off-season to help make ends meet.

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07-31-2008, 12:17 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldSeems to me that Tedasaurus is taking on challengers 'vertically', head on... instead of giving up on the argument, lying down, and taking it 'horizontally'. Ted, I told you so. You go rattling the 'horizontal Dunn' cage and look what wakes up.

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07-31-2008, 12:40 PM

Posted By: samueledit: shouldn't have contributed to the horizontal/vertical debate.

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07-31-2008, 01:22 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonJack Dunn played plenty of games in the field so the pose is not as strange as I first thought. 3B Totals 143 0 0 499 3.5 444 178 266 55 18 n/a n/a n/a .890 0.00 -- P Totals 142 118 3,230 378 2.7 355 77 278 23 6 n/a n/a n/a .939 2.97 -- SS Totals 98 0 0 546 5.6 490 208 282 56 39 n/a n/a n/a .897 0.00 -- OF Totals 54 0 0 69 1.3 67 61 6 2 4 n/a n/a n/a .971 0.00 -- 2B Totals 35 0 0 138 3.9 124 46 78 14 5 n/a n/a n/a .899 0.00 -- LF Totals 4 0 0 3 0.8 3 3 0 0 0 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -- CF Totals 1 0 0 1 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 n/a n/a n/a 1.000 0.00 -- 8 Years 477 118 3,230 1,634 3.4 1,484 574 910 150 72 n/a n/a n/a .908 12.40 -- Jack Dunn

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07-31-2008, 01:25 PM

Posted By: pasIndeed. Maybe it is a Brooks Robinson type diving play at third. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1217532471.JPG">

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07-31-2008, 01:35 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonMr. Wakefield...graded or ungraded, soaked or unsoaked, that there was well done!

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07-31-2008, 03:14 PM

Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JRActually Dunn was more then a pitcher . His bio states he pitched in 142 games but played 143 at 3rd , 98 at s.s. , 59 outfield and 35 at 2nd , so you could picture him almost anywhere .

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07-31-2008, 03:17 PM

Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JRJust noticed similar post a few up . Sorry !

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07-31-2008, 08:43 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou guys can continue this debate till this thread goes into triple digit posts. However, I have not heard anything that can convince me (and others) that this T206 of Jack Dunn was designed as a horizontal card. I'll repeat....this Jack Dunn card is in the 350 Series. There are 216 - T206's in the 350 Series, and not one of them is a horizontal card. Here are indisputable examples of horizontal cards. What distinguishes them as such...... 1....the player's horizontally formatted pose 2....the background artwork is horizontally drawn, congruent with the player's pose. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a6horizontalt206.jpg"> <img src="http://www.oldcardboard.com/e/e1/e105/e105.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abondbread1947musial.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/fleertw68.jpg"> Is there anyone out there that would like to further this discussion regarding Jack Dunn's career...... and, his mentoring of Babe Ruth ? There is much more to be said about an unheralded player/manager like Dunn and his close association with the greatest BB player of all time, Babe Ruth. TED Z

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07-31-2008, 09:22 PM

Posted By: JoannI think Steve D nailed it in the fourth post of this thread. He is coming diagonally out of the corner. This, to me, makes it essentially a vertical pose. Diagonal??? Yes. Just like the Speaker T206. It may look like Speaker is leaning back to hit one, but the pose is pretty much the same as his T201 and T3 and in those he is straight up. The T206 has tilted the pose on a diagonal. So take Dunn and mentally stand him straight up and then compare the result to the photo in Clint's post of 7/30 6:29. Pretty close. But what is he doing? Posing - just like a lot of the images from the day. I can't think off the top of my head of photos that were actual game action versus warm-up kinds of activities (like many of the pitcher photos that became cards) versus outright poses, but many were posed - which would account for the awkward look that does not seem to relate directly to known game action. The Clint photo above appears posed. So I think I land on vertical, with a diag tilt. J (And Ted, a thousand pardons for continuing the off-track meander of your thread. I can't add much about Dunn - only that I remember reading about him in the Babe Ruth Story but didn't realize it was the same guy as the T206 Dunn until your post. Thanks as always for your contribution to this group.)

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07-31-2008, 10:06 PM

Posted By: pasIF it is meant to be viewed vertically, why is the letter on the sleeve turned sideways? TRYING TO ADD EBAY LINK TO AUCTION DESCRIBING CARD AS HORIZONTAL BUT WON"T WORK SORRY

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07-31-2008, 10:13 PM

Posted By: pasNote how viewed sideways his face is perfectly in alignment with the orientation of the card. And the placement of his hands makes perfect sense. And the orientation of the "B" makes sense. So my admittedly far less informed than Ted vote is for horizontal. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1217564836.JPG">

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07-31-2008, 10:19 PM

Posted By: Joe DrouillardHello Ted, This card feels real, looks real and I would swear it is real, but as you can see it is a horizontal 350. So is it a fake? <img src="http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m10/northviewcats/T206Horizontal.jpg"> <img src="http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m10/northviewcats/back.jpg"> Thanks, Joe

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07-31-2008, 11:42 PM

Posted By: Troy KirkI am with those that voted for tilted. No fielder in their right mind would lean backwards and use a basket catch to catch a popup unless he wanted to catch the ball with his head. Here are the real possibilities: 1. Horizontal showing a diving catch. 2. Vertical with a tilted photo to get all of Dunn to fit in the T206 card space. I think if the actual photo used for this pose were found, it would look something like this: <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1217568947.JPG">

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08-01-2008, 08:56 AM

Posted By: BrianI agree Troy. Thanks

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08-01-2008, 09:11 AM

Posted By: paulstrattonWhat about Joe's 350 series? It looks real to me.

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08-01-2008, 09:31 AM

Posted By: ali_lapointgreat thread. my vote goes to horizontal. sideways B seals it. how about that babe ruth?

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08-01-2008, 09:51 AM

Posted By: AnonymousNow that I look again, maybe the B would go sideways if he raised his arms 90 degrees.

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08-01-2008, 10:23 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...it's what you want it to be. My vote is the artist designed it to be ambiguous. And to debate it just gives credence to that intent. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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08-01-2008, 10:43 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisPAUL S....and....ALI L......and anyone else......here it is......read it......it's FREE of CHARGE ! These six HORIZONTAL cards were printed in the 1st Series of T206 set and issued in 1909/1910 <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a6horizontalt206.jpg"> Two are classified as "150-only" Subjects....that means they are ONLY found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU. They are...... PATTEE PELTY The following 3 HORIZONTAL cards are classified as 150/350 Subjects....that is they are found with Piedmont 150, or 350, Sweet Cap 150 or 350, Sovereign 150 or 350 and Brown HINDU. They are...... BIRMINGHAM MURPHY POWELL MULLIN....is found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU....and ONLY with a rare Piedmont 350. The 2nd Series of T206's was issued in early 1910 and consists of 216 cards that are classified as "350-only" Subjects. Jack Dunn was issued in the 350-only Series. There are NO HORIZONTAL cards in the 350-only Series, or the 350/460 Series, or the 460-only Series. That's it guys.....get a copy of Scot Reader's "INSIDE T206" book and read it thoroughly. It is very informative and perhaps we can have some future intelligent discussions regarding the T206 cards. Until you do get more informed.....you are looking foolish with your "gotcha" posts. T-Rex TED

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08-01-2008, 10:55 AM

Posted By: AnonymousTed a very informative post.

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08-01-2008, 11:00 AM

Posted By: ali_lapointyou keep reverting back to your issuing point as a way of saying the card can't be a horizontal, but i don't think that is at the basis of what determines a horizontal card.

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08-01-2008, 11:07 AM

Posted By: paulstrattonI don't know why you're singling me out Ted. I was trying to get Joe's question answered since nobody seemed to be responding. Quit being condescending, I have SReaders "book" and I have hundreds of t206's. Do I know all the nuances like you? No. I'm still learning so if that makes me look foolish then oh well what can I do.

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08-01-2008, 12:07 PM

Posted By: Joe DrouillardHello Ted, Thanks for answering my question with your explanation. I appreciate it. Best wishes, Joe

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08-01-2008, 12:20 PM

Posted By: Rawn HillBack to the original topic.........Wouldn't Brother Mathias be considered Babe's first manager/coach? Rawn

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08-01-2008, 12:21 PM

Posted By: John"Until you do get more informed.....you are looking foolish with your "gotcha" posts." Ted...play nice I remember a certain someone who went to the stones saying Plank didn't come with a certain factory 30 on the 150 series Sweet Cap... In the end all we can be is a bit more informed but as you know with this set today’s rules are broken with tomorrow’s discoveries... For me I’m not sure either way but will say the card looks better horizontal…FWIW. Ted...also "MULLIN....is found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU....and ONLY with a rare Piedmont 350." It would be safe to say IMO that Pattee & Pelty along with others were most likley printed in the 350 as well, we just haven't found them yet I see no need to select just 4 of the 6 above to carry into the 350 by themselves...that's just my thoughts.

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08-01-2008, 12:53 PM

Posted By: David RThe tone of this is getting a little ridiculous, don't you think. I think we all need to go clean out our Star Wars Underoos and come back and play nice with our baseball cards. I agree that a lot of things that we thought were gospel yesterday continue to get updated based on further information and discoveries. And even the most knowledgeable among us have been proven wrong.

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08-01-2008, 01:32 PM

Posted By: dennis<img src="http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l239/dcc1/mackdiving.jpg"> mccormack diving <img src="http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l239/dcc1/phelpsdiving.jpg"> phelps diving <img src="http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l239/dcc1/dolanex.jpg"> and dolin exercising

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08-01-2008, 01:48 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI'm with Ted - the card is vertical. And I think it's just a contrived pose, like so many of the old judge studio shots. If the card were horizontal Dunn would be lying flat on his belly; otherwise, his legs would have to be bent at an almost impossible angle.

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08-01-2008, 02:20 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for getting this thread back on topic. Brother Mathias was indeed Babe Ruth's first BB coach and mentor....but, more than this he was a father figure to Ruth and a strict disciplinarian. Jack Dunn was Ruth's first professional BB manager. Dunn, having a keen eye for talent, spotted Ruth playing at St. Mary's Industrial School for Boys....and, signed Ruth to a Major League contract when Ruth was 19 years old. TED Z

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08-01-2008, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI admitted my mistake regarding the Plank SC 150/30 card. Even Bill Heitman's book and Scot Reader's 1st book edition had not accounted for the existence of this back on Plank. Now are we going to see an apology from Ali L....regarding his remark to me...... "already proved wrong ted's theory on the series numbers." ? ? A stupid remark like this shows how uninformed this guy is about the T206 set. Look, JOHN W, I started what I thought was an interesting thread about an unheralded T206 guy and the role he played in launching Babe Ruth's career. And, then it was "hijacked"....simply because in my opinion, the Dunn card in no way represents a horizontal T206 card. If this card had an artistic backdrop, the argument would be over. Now, I am surprised at your comment.... "It would be safe to say IMO that Pattee & Pelty along with others were most likley printed in the 350 as well, we just haven't found them yet I see no need to select just 4 of the 6 above to carry into the 350 by themselves...that's just my thoughts." There are 11 cards in the 1st Series that are classified as "150-only" Subjects......this is an established fact. Ames (hands/chest) M Brown (Cubs) G Brown (Chi) Burch (batting) Donlin (fielding) L Doyle (throwing) Evers (bat-blue sky) Pattee (Horiz.) Pelty (Horiz.) Powers Reulbach (glove) These will never be found with any 350 backs. One can live to 100 and have looked at 100,000 T206's and I'll bet you....you will never find any of these 11 with any other back then a 150-type. TED Z

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08-01-2008, 02:50 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonI think the "uniqueness" of the pose discussion has actually led to more information about Dunn than what would have otherwise come out in a straight biographical thread. Since he played most of his games at a position other than pitcher, the pose is not as strange as I first thought and I would agree that it is not a horizontal.

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08-01-2008, 04:01 PM

Posted By: Tom BGood post about Dunn as agree his impact to the game is very under recognized. As this has inevitably become a dual thread I will add that I first saw it as horizontal and have trouble seeing differently although I see people's points. As the "its horizontal" crowd seems to be in the minority here I will add a pic I found which might explain the green background of the card and perhaps the way he is positioned as at least being possible. Good thread on both topics and just my opinion of course. <img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f352/tbarlage/DivingCatch.jpg">

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08-01-2008, 04:08 PM

Posted By: JohnTed, There have been many cards that have been listed as 150 only that have been found in the 350...in fact Lipsets book didn't even mention the Ames hands at chest back in the day it listed just 10 cards as 150 only. I stand by the fact that I think many of the cards that are thought to be 150 only cards may have been in fact printed in the 350 we just haven't found them or they have been lost to time due to being printed in such short numbers. That’s why I’m always looking for them. Hence Lindaman and many of the 150 series tough cards that you and I have been buying in the 350 series variety were once thought only to be in the 150. Ted my point is simple I’m not debating if Dunn is vertical or horizontal I agree with Paul M it’s art everyone will have their own take. My point is as much as I love you and I do guy... but sometimes you come off a bit like the self appointed T206 God what you say is final on T206. Which is cool you know a lot but nobody is a true expert on these cards the t206 set has all sorts of surprises and nuances that we will never really figure it out 100%. So my theory that we may find 150 only series cards with 350 backs someday or that they may in fact have been printed at one time is no different or any less educated a theory than any of your printing or American Caramel exclusive stuff both very hard to prove without evidence, but both made with educated assumptions. And for you to call anyone stupid or uninformed isn’t productive per say, because as I proved to you with the Plank card even someone with your knowledge can get it wrong when it comes to T206. Cheers, John

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08-01-2008, 04:22 PM

Posted By: Steve DawsonTomB... You are correct that it is possible for it to be a diving pose. The main sticking point with that though, is that if you look at Dunn's face, he's seemingly way too relaxed to be in the middle of a dive. The picture above Dunn in your post reflects this...that player is all tensed up waiting for impact with the ground, as I would think all players would be. Edited to add: Also, looking at the visible part of each player's pants...The player above Dunn: his pants are parallel to the ground. Dunn's pants however, are not parallel; they appear to start into a roughly 45 degree angle toward the ground. Based on this, I really don't believe that the photo is of Dunn in a dive. I suppose we'll probably never know until and unless the original photo surfaces. Steve

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08-01-2008, 07:15 PM

Posted By: Anonymouswe should have a poll

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08-01-2008, 07:28 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI wasn't inferring that you are "uninformed"....I'm sorry it came out that way. I was singling out that dude named "Ali_L"....who obviously knows very little about T206's...... by what he thought was a "gotcha" remark at me....... "already proved wrong ted's theory on the series numbers." When I explained in detail all the possible back arrangements of the six Horizontal cards in the T206 set in my above post, he could have been man enough to apologize for such a crass re- mark (or at least admit his error). But, what did Ali_L do, instead....he edited out this sentence in his post at 4:25 PM. I, and many others on this forum, don't dig this kind of crap. If you are going to question someone's expertise on this forum, you better be able to back it up. Instead of "throwing" some "B-S" out there; and, then go into hiding by editing out your "B-S". So PAUL, please accept my apology, if I offended you. TED Z

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08-01-2008, 07:40 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethThis is a very unfortunate use of the editing function. A certain rookie card collector used to do this when he was shown to be mistaken about something, and then all the posts after his made no sense. If you make a mistake, apologize like an adult, don't edit it out unless you are requested to do so.

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08-01-2008, 07:48 PM

Posted By: samuelapologies, I did this. will not happen again.

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08-01-2008, 08:03 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI don't recall what you posted....but, I not talking about you.

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08-01-2008, 08:03 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonNo worries Ted. You really think I want to argue with you about the nuances of T206? That would be like trying to prosecute one of Lichtman's clients or submitting an unedited first draft English paper to Barry. No thanks!

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08-01-2008, 08:06 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYour starting to sound like a "broken record" regarding the Plank card......you stated: "And for you to call anyone stupid or uninformed isn’t productive per say, because as I proved to you with the Plank card even someone with your knowledge can get it wrong when it comes to T206." I responded to it earlier here.,,,,did you bother to read my post ? And, as for my "uninformed" statement.....I just posted an apology to Paul Stratton, because I didn't mean to accuse him of being uninformed. It was a dude by the name of "Ali_L" that I was addressing. If you are at all interested in what prompted me to say this, then read the post I just posted to Paul Stratton. I am not going to repeat the details again. TED Z

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08-01-2008, 08:11 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthPeter, Now you want members to act like adults?

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08-01-2008, 08:42 PM

Posted By: JohnTed, the Plank was just an example no offense intended...lighten up even if this Ali guy knows nothing about T206's who cares? Just point out your knowledge hopefully he will learn if not do you really care if he does? I mean it's not like you worked at the factory on these cards in 1909-11 and he's ragging on your life’s work etc. that's all I'm saying. Cheers, John

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08-02-2008, 12:32 AM

Posted By: ali_lapointhey ted, i edited my message because you apparently got really upset over me saying someone proved your theory wrong. i'm sorry for offending you. i still think you're wrong about the card and that is my opinion, something i am entitled to have. i edited my post as a subtle way to appease you, but you seem to be harping on it. we're talking about baseball cards. there is no need to take it as personally as you seem to have done. you started the argument and discussion with the first sentence of your post, which you edited, and then attack me for editing my post. if you had just stuck to your original intention of discussing Dunn and not taken the opportunity to flex your t206 muscle this diversion would have been avoided.

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08-02-2008, 05:47 AM

Posted By: Rob D.For what it's worth (and against my better judgement), I'm mentioning this only because Ted jumped all over Ali for editing a comment, but Ted did pretty much the same thing with his original post. The very first sentence of Ted's first post originally started with a comment on the horizontal vs. vertical argument of the Dunn card. Then, after many posters, apparently to Ted's chagrin, found that discussion to be more interesting than documenting the life of Jack Dunn, Ted deleted his original horizontal-vertical reference. The editing of posts can change the perception of the flow of discussion. When Ted later bemoaned the fact that his thread was "hijacked" by the horizontal-vertical debaters, he appeared to have a valid point, because his original comment on the subject -- the first one posted on the thread -- had been deleted. Ted, I don't desire a pissing contest with you. It just seems that in this case you opened the floor for debate, then got really annoyed when opinions different than yours ensued.

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08-02-2008, 08:14 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis1st......so, you still say...... "i still think you're wrong about the card and that is my opinion, something i am entitled to have." You are entitled to your opinion on this matter.....but, you are 100% wrong. Let's review this scenario....Joe D posts a scan of his T206 Powell (horizontal) with a Sweet Cap 350 back. You followed up with your...."already proved wrong ted's theory on the series numbers." This told me that you did not understand the complexities of the T206 front/back permutations. So, I proceeded to explain in detail the back arrangement of the 6 horizontal T206 cards for you, and Joe D, and anyone else that was interested. I will repeat this information here for your benefit, since I don't think you bothered to read it the first time. These six HORIZONTAL cards were printed in the 1st Series of T206 set and issued in 1909/1910 <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a6horizontalt206.jpg"> Two are classified as "150-only" Subjects....that means they are ONLY found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU. They are...... PATTEE PELTY Three HORIZONTAL cards are classified as 150/350 Subjects....that is they are found with Piedmont 150 or 350, Sweet Cap 150 or 350, Sovereign 150 or 350 and Brown HINDU. They are...... \--------------------/ BIRMINGHAM MURPHY POWELL <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Joe D's card....that you questioned my knowledge of MULLIN....is found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU....and ONLY with a rare Piedmont 350. OK, do you understand this now ? If so, perhaps you can understand why I'm ticked-off at you....be a man and admit you jumped to a rash con- clusion that was unwarranted ? 2nd......I deleted the comments in my initial post here regarding the "horizontal" aspect of the Jack Dunn card because it was causing a distraction to my original intent of this thread regarding Jack Dunn. If someone wants to "hijack" a thread, they would be better served to initiate a new thread on their off-topic post. TED Z

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08-02-2008, 10:15 AM

Posted By: ali_lapointted no offense, but this is bordering on ridiculous. i apologized to you already. you're still hung up on it. did me saying someone proved you wrong really get you that upset? you keep re-itterating things that don't really matter. you can keep chastising me because i'm not a self appointed expert like you, but in the end i don't really care to be.

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08-02-2008, 10:25 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAli- don't want to get in the middle of a dispute, but on the six horizontal cards above all the players are standing upright. In the case of the Dunn, he would have to be lunging through the air for the card to be horizontal, and no other known T206 has that design. I respect your opinion but I do disagree.

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08-02-2008, 10:28 AM

Posted By: ali_lapointno problem barry. people feel one way or another about everything.

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08-02-2008, 10:36 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI think there's a Baltimore Orioles connection here, Jack Dunn was both Ruth's manager in Baltimore and the inspiration for a diving Brooks Robinson two generations later. Seriously, Ali, you are free to form your own opinions but to suggest that what Ted is bringing up is completely irrelevant is just being willful. Obviously if no other horizontal cards were issued in the 350 only series that is germane to the question of the intent behind this card.

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08-02-2008, 10:47 AM

Posted By: ali_lapointi don't really want to argue about it anymore. i'm mainly just posting because i already apologized for offending ted but he is still upset. all i was trying to do was say i was sorry for hurting his feelings.

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08-02-2008, 01:05 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI opened this thread with it's title.... "T206 JACK DUNN....Babe Ruth's 1st manager" As, I like to post interesting stories on not-to-well known T206 Subjects. And, I thought Dunn's story would be of great interest to Net54 members, who were unaware of the starting role Dunn played in Ruth's career. Yes, I rue the moment that I even brought up the vertical/horizontal aspect of this card. I didn't expect the controversy that ensued. So, I deleted that sentence in my initial post here regarding the vertical/horizontal aspect of the Jack Dunn card because it was causing a distraction to my original intent of this thread regarding Jack Dunn and Babe Ruth. Was there some "diabolical" reason for my deleting this sentence....I don't think so ! I simply did it to get the conversation on this thread back On-Topic for new readers accessing it. In any event Rob, tell me what you are alluding to here, as I don't quite understand it......? ? "The editing of posts can change the perception of the flow of discussion. When Ted later bemoaned the fact that his thread was "hijacked" by the horizontal-vertical debaters, he appeared to have a valid point, because his original comment on the subject -- the first one posted on the thread -- had been deleted." Lastly, I'm really not annoyed when opinions differ from mine. I have posted so-called controversial threads in the past just to motivate a good discussion. In this case, if some one posts a criticism of me (or for that matter anyone else) that is blatantly false....you darn right I will be contentious. TED Z

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08-03-2008, 08:51 AM

Posted By: Rob D.Sorry for the delay in responding to your question, Ted, I was away from the computer almost afternoon Saturday. Also, apologies for apparently not being clear enough in my post. You ask, "In any event Rob, tell me what you are alluding to here, as I don't quite understand it......? ? Simple: 1. An original post (yours) is made, which includes what you call a factual statement that the Dunn card is not horizontal. This post also includes a mini-bio on Dunn. 2. After the thread becomes almost exclusively a debate on the horizontal-vertical issue, something you've decided should not happen, you go back and delete the horizontal-vertical references in your post. 3. After your original reference to the horizontal-vertical has been deleted, you complain that your thread was "hijacked," and that all you wanted was a discussion on Dunn's life in baseball. I'm not "alluding" to anything. I'm clearly saying that it's not right to accuse folks of hijacking a thread by discussing a topic (horizontal vs. vertical) that you originally posted then deleted. You've explained why you edited your post after the discussion went in a direction you didn't want it to. That's your choice. But I don't think it's right to complain about your thread being hijacked when it wasn't. (Not to mention this all happened in a thread in which you jumped on someone else for editing one of his posts after the fact.) Hope that's clearer. Thanks.

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08-03-2008, 10:12 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for your response to my question....I better understand your prior comment. However, I don't see the correlation of my deletion to this statement of yours....... "(Not to mention this all happened in a thread in which you jumped on someone else for editing one of his posts after the fact.)" The "operative" word here is...."FACT". There was nothing FACTUAL in what he said, he just threw it out as a "gotcha" statement, and then deleted it when he was called on it. He claims he deleted it since he did not want to "offend me".....after the fact ? ? More likely, he realized that he did not know what he was talking about and wanted to cover it up. I think you will agree that there is a distinct degree of difference between my deletion and his deletion ? TED Z

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08-03-2008, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Rob D.Ted, If it will make you feel better and you'll stop rationalizing, then yes: I AGREE with you. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

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08-03-2008, 03:46 PM

Posted By: ali_lapointyou know ted, i'm about fed up with your attitude. i already apologized to you in multiple posts for hurting your feelings and yet you still feel the need to assert some sort of superiority complex over me and everyone else who disagrees with you. i understand you see yourself as a t206 expert, but that doesn't give you the right to be so arrogant about it all. i didnt delete my post because i think what i said was stupid, i deleted my post because it bothered you and then i apologized. it would be nice to receive the same courtesy as i have shown you.