Kelly Old Judge on Ebay

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/3ujumc" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/3ujumc</a>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Why did you provide this link?

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Posted By: <b>Aaron Conyers</b><p>Looks like a problem with the bottom of the card.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Barry- it's a nice card and good question.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>is the whole darn bottom trimmed off?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You're right- the whole bottom is trimmed off. Now I see why it was posted. My skill in spotting these things is on a par with a PSA grader! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>What is left is good...

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>How does this get a numeric grade when it is trimmed?<br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Joe, a better question would be why do folks put much faith at all in graded cards when their own skill at ascertaining authenticity and condition is or should be greater. What happens here is that someone sees the slab and starts out assuming that the card is all there. That assumption would not have happened had the card been in its original, unslabbed state. (I don't care for the term 'raw', it carries with it an implication that there is more to be done to the card, like one might cook it or something. I think 'original unslabbed' is more accurate, since these cards weren't distributed slabbed.)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Frank- an even better question is why can't a professional grading service do a better job? You wouldn't allow your doctor or lawyer or accountant to do such sloppy work, so why can't cards be graded with greater efficiency and fewer errors? It's not brain surgery, and if you spend the proper amount of time with each card you can get ever so close to 100% accuracy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not making excuses for PSA but your doctor or lawyer or accountant doesn't make the wages the regular graders make....

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That's a good point and I maintain you get what you pay for. Cards can be submitted in bulk for roughly $8-10 per card, sometimes less. And maybe that's too cheap. If they charged more, it's possible they could spend more time with each card.<br /><br />Conversely, there are high value cards that cost $50-100 to grade. For $100 I would expect that card to be examined from every possible angle, and that the chance of an error occurring would be practically zero.<br /><br />And we are not talking about overlooking a hairline wrinkle. This Kelly is missing the whole bottom, and Bruce B. has shown us a Mayo that likewise is missing the ad bottom and is graded a 5. That level of carelessness is not acceptable.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>That is beyond bad. PSA should hit the BIN and get this card out of circulation.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>does that holder look frosty?<br /><br />so quick to bash PSA, but there may be more to the story.

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Posted By: <b>Preece1</b><p>Leon, <br /><br />How can you defend/brush off this lvel of quality by stating that the graders don't make much money.<br /><br />And Barry, how can you agree?<br /><br />Granted, the cost to grade each card is typically not that much. But, nowhere in their advertisement does it say "don't expect any quality because we don't get paid that much". In any service there should be the expectation of at least a minimal standard of quality, especialiy in the area of grading where such large amounts of money are spent.<br /><br />I would expect more outrage than that.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I'm with Jeff here...it's too easy to monkey with these slabs. I wouldn't blame PSA just yet.

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Jeff makes a valid point. Of course, the counterpoint would be that PSA -- and all grading companies, for that matter -- should be using tamper-proof holders.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>You're right Jeff. They make it so easy sometimes though. I have no clue about the frosting deal, only what I've read from Saucier.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Maybe you need to read what I wrote. I said I wasn't defending PSA...Also, I don't think, from looking at the holder and the buyer etc...that this is a problem holder except most likely PSA made another mistake...just my opinion from what I see. There is no excuse for this error if it is one..

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Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>this card doesn't come up very often. in fact, i have never seen one. are you guys sure it has the ad bottom? i know that may sound like a dumb question but it may be that the card wasn't issued with the ad bottom for one reason or another. <br /><br />also, why would you jump all over the guy for linking you to a card?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Ali, The bottom ad has been cut off. No doubt about it.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>that holder doesn't look bad to you Leon? doesn't look too good to me.<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/bicem/imagehostingmisc/websize/2202_1.JPG"><br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/bicem/imagehostingmisc/websize/2328_1.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>No, it doesn't<br /><br /><br />ps....not saying it definitely is ok....but it doesn't definitely look bad to me...though I am far from an expert on PSA holders....I have seen many with some frosting that weren't altered...

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>stole this PSA graded OJ scan off ebay as a holder comparison, this I would feel comfortable bidding on, the Kelly holder I would not. Sure, there may be some perfectly good cards in frosty holders for whatever reason, but it's a big red flag and combined with the fact the card if cut, I personally think PSA deserves the benefit of the doubt.<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/bicem/imagehostingmisc/Clarkson-McCarthyB.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>How many of these have graded a "2" on the pop report?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Pat- you are correct that we are entitled to a much higher standard of professionalism. However, one thing that is clear is PSA is swamped with submissions and don't spend enough time looking at each card. And the faster a card is run through the system, the more likely that a mistake will be made. By charging more they could conceivably spend more time examining and come up with a better product.<br /><br />In no way am I defending this sloppy Kelly, but the fact is these mistakes keep happening, so they need to find a way to do it better. I don't know what else to say about such a low standard. Of course they should get it right every time, but they don't.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Unbelievable.<br /><br />BTW, it grows tiresome to me to hear the "maybe the holder has been tampered" argument. Design and use a holder worth a damn. They've known about WIWAG for how many years now? They have made no effort to improve their holder, and this just gives them an excuse to deny relief for their mistakes--um, we've determined in our unilateral and unappealable decision-making process that your holder was compromised. You know, even if it were true, a trimmed card is now being associated with your company. Wouldn't you think that a company would do what it could to make it extremely tough for this to happen?--especially when there has been a scandal of pretty decent size in the past that involved your holder? Other companies seem to have escaped these problems, so why doesn't PSA do anything to improve? Oh, I forgot, they DID go to half grades.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Also, if you look closely, whatever he took the photo against makes it looks worse. Not saying it isn't cracked, but the background isn't solid like the other scan you provided.

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Posted By: <b>bigfish</b><p>AWFUL.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert</b><p>The last 3 SGCs which I cracked out were quite difficult to do.<br />I want to collect my cards in binder pages.<br />If this persists, I will preferentially choose an option other than SGC.

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Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>I've been busting the vast majority of my graded cards out of their holders the past few weeks (while listening to the theme song from "Born Free") and the PSA holders end up looking exactly like that N172 Kelly's holder when I'm done with them.

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Not the first heavily trimmed card in a PSA slab. Ive seen a couple but could only find one of the scans (I have a few dozen scans of extremely stupid screwups on their part)<br /><br /><img src=http://members.aol.com/canofprimo/psascrewupmayo.jpg>

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>PSA. Aren't they the guys who saved the "hobby" with their skill at detecting "evidence of trimming?" I'd be willing to give PSA the benefit of the doubt - if this didn't happen so often.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It shouldn't happen at all. Small and hard to detect mistakes will happen, but ones of this magnitude should not.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>My recollection is that this card was sold in a Lipset auction some years ago with Lew's wry note that the card bottom was trimmed off but PSA still graded it. My catalogs are at the office. Anyone wanna search their archives for the auction? <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No excuse for the mistake and no excuse for even the thought that the holder has been played with. PSA won't provide a better holder because it will cost them 1 cent extra per slab and that cannot be tolerated by a company whose stock price is about 1/3 as high as it was 9 years ago. <br /><br />Basically, PSA's business model is premised upon doing the bare minimum in terms of quality control while at the same time furiously figuring out ways to make more cash to prop up a flagging bottom line.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>The seller has added a paragraph to the listing saying that the bottom of the card has obviously been cut off, but he believes PSA thought it was a "factory miscut", as opposed to a later trimming.<br /><br />The thing is, it could very well be a "later trimming", in that one practice I've read of was where a man would get the card in his pack of cigarettes, and then cut the cigarette advertisement off the bottom of it before giving the card to his son, thereby not letting the boy know where it came from, and not giving him the impetus to try to obtain them directly.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>My opinion is that the card not only had the bottom ad trimmed off but that it was also trimmed on the sides and possibly at the top. For comparison sake take a look at some of the Kellys on Dave Levin's site.

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Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>Todd and Jeff you hit the nail right on the head. PSA has had ample time to improve its holder since the WIWAG fiasco - obviously it has not been a priority, so that excuse doesn't wash. They are a grading mill plain and simple!

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>you may be correct sir...this card was issued with a coupon for cigarettes and PSA should have listed this card "sans coupon".....<br /><br /> it is hand cut similar to a strip card, only on one edge...

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>all I can say is "wow" to their amendment....

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Mr Anonymous:The card was not issued with a coupon for cigarettes. The card came with an ad for Goodwin & Co., the cards issuer, at the bottom.

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Posted By: <b>scott dango</b><p>thats what i meant....sorry...you knew what i meant

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Posted By: <b>scott dango</b><p>look at these 2 cards to see the variation that exists....<br /><br />almost impossible to detect a "trimmed card"<br /><br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/3olff6" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/3olff6</a>

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>yes it is impossible to tell if 1/4 inch of a card is missing if you are a psa grader. for everyone else is is obvious

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Scott D...the folks in this thread are who the grading companies call to consult with when they have a question. The newer example of Clarkson that is shown might have been handcut at inception or it might have been trimmed later. The original post example shouldn't be in any numeric holder; if numeric means unaltered. It's really that simple...As far as I know the factory would put their advertising on them to advertise. Could the ad have been trimmed off by the original owner? I suppose....Also, it would be nice to see the edges in person, on the Clarkson. I have a Yum Yum with a wavy cut and a numerical grade and feel it's legit, so I do think they can happen...Others know more than I do about these so I will defer to their expertise if I said something incorrectly but those are my thoughts...

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>psa is pretty bad at the whole card grading thing these days and don't need any help in butchering cards...but the slab on this kelly looks cloudy as hell, plus in all his previous auctions the seller scanned his $20 cards where his took grainy digi pics of his $2k+ kelly here. that whole story about psa graders comparing this with 3 other ojs don't add up either as the surrounding certs have 60s topps and some comic cards. maybe he got a vip tour of the grading process who knows...meh no strong case either way so color me 50/50 on who to assign blame.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So the fraudster who popped the slab, pulled out the good Kelly and slipped this trimmed one in just happened to have another Kelly lying around (albeit a trimmed one)? Seems unlikely, right?

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Posted By: <b>Scott Dango</b><p>if you look at the scans of the back of these two cards on ebay, they do not looked trimmed....the wear facets and overall aging of the card seems to be consistent with the exisiting edges...<br /><br /> is it possible some experts can detect if the card was trimmed by its original owner (in this case to separate it from an unwanted portion) and differentiate that from malicious trimming...<br /><br /> is trimming that prevalent on such rare cards? I thought it was more prevalent in common cards that were "uncommon" in Gem conditon....<br /><br /> why risk altering a card that has great inherent value due to its scarcity? not worth the risk it seems to me...<br /><br />Again, im not an expert, you my 2c...<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />That is what I believe may have happened with this card. The original owner of the card probably cut the tobacco advertisement off the bottom of the card prior to giving it to his underage son, to preclude exposing the boy to advertising for elicit tobacco use.<br /><br />This would also explain why the card seems to have even wear around all four edges, as the bottom was cut off immediately after it came out of the pack.<br /><br />There would be absolutely no reason to trim the card that much to "enhance the condition", since it is a completely obvious trim.<br /><br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>From the added description on ebay<br />&lt;&lt; At least 3 graders from PSA thought it was an original, mis-cut card or they would have body-bagged it. I don't think they would have missed the obvious "Goodwin and Company" ad&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Nah, they never could've missed the bottom trimmed off a card- Goodwin and Co. must've meant to do that, just like Mayo Cut Plug did.<br /><img src="http://members.aol.com/canofprimo/psascrewupmayo.jpg"><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>All N172 Old Judge Baseball Cards, regardless of year of issue, should have a final line stating <b>"Goodwin & Co., New York."</b> (in varying forms of text and punctuation). The bottom of this short numbered Kelly card didn't advertise the cigarettes, but instead only the issuer's name and location. The cigarette advertisement, like all other 1887 Old Judges, is located in the image area (see "OLD JUDGE Cigarettes" banner).<br /><br />I agree with Jay, it appears the card was trimmed on more than one side. Extremely sad that this card would be graded at all.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>that I mentioned above was Lot 188 in Lew Lipset's Nov 6-7 2002 Auction. The player was McGunnigle. <br /><br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/uffda51/trimmedT64.jpg"><br /><br />I suspect that this card has been trimmed - or was possibly miscut at the factory. If only I knew for sure . . . perhaps a third party professional sportscard authenticator could help me.<br /><br />(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)<br /><br />One would think that professional graders would know what an Old Judge looks like. After what happened with the Mayo card of Shindle, wouldn't you think PSA would supply its graders with photos of all of the possible cards they might be grading? Or at least spend $25 for a copy of the SCD catalog for each grader?

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Posted By: <b>Rawn Hill</b><p>Or perhaps look to the knowledge of the experts in this forum.<br /><br />Rawn