Let's Rate The Auction Houses

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p><br />Over the past 30 years that we have been active buyers of rare baseball<br />cards and memorabilia we have found significant variation among the<br />auction houses in the quality of material, accuracy of description,<br />speed of delivery and most notably payment to consigners.<br /><br />With tens of thousands of hits each month, it is incumbent upon the Board Members<br />to take control and rate the auction houses every six months.<br /><br />Only registered Board Members should be able to vote. And we should<br />design a methodology so people can only vote one time.<br /><br />We would suggest a 1-5 rating system and that following five areas be covered<br /><br /><br />1. Overall quality of rare material<br />2. Quality and accuracy of lot descriptions<br />3. Level of customer service<br />4. Timely payment to consigners<br />5. Timely shipping of items<br /><br /><br />The auction houses that we suggest be included are:<br /><br />Clean Sweep<br />Goodwin<br />Heritage<br />Huggins and Scott<br />Hunt<br />Lelands<br />Andy Madec<br />Mastro<br />Memory Lane<br />Mile High<br />19th Century Only<br />Robert Edwards<br />SCP/Sotheby's<br />Sloate<br /><br />Baseballl memorabilia collecting is a $500m a year plus business. Rating the major auction<br />houses will provide interesting information, raise the profile of the hobby, help some dealers<br />and hurt others, and perhaps attract items long hidden away. <br /><br />We should also develop a press release for PR Newswire.<br /><br />After two or three surveys it will be interesting to see if any auction houses<br />adjust their policies. Will some continue to pay in 6-8 weeks while others<br />pay in 4 days? Will bad ratings destroy any chances of obtaining great new<br />material.<br /><br />Let's use the power of marketing to enhance the hobby.<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>There are 3 listed above that I have never dealt with. Most others, I have bought/consigned many times... <br /><br />For the purpose of keeping score, do you prefer that we put N/A, or simply leave a blank by the name of those we have not had contact with? Or should we not participate in the survey unless we have dealt with ALL of the above?<br /><br />I am sure many other people will be in the same boat. Also, I would add Grey Flannel to the list, as they are a pretty major one that was left out. Thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>That is a great idea! I loved to rate them from Dennis Purdy's old publication VCBC. I think you would need to add more auction comanies to the list. You should only be allowed to vote once. <br /><br />JC

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am waiting to see if 1 or 5 is best then I am going to have a write in ballot for my own auction and rate me best <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. Seriously, not a bad idea but of course I don't think I will participate due to my position on the board. Have fun...

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce- aren't you going to vote?

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />In order to make this process work, we need to cooperate with Leon<br />and have a separate chart listing the categories, the auction house<br />names and the 1-5 scale<br /><br />We can other auction houses.<br /><br />We should include Leon's new firm after they have been in business<br />a few months. At this point there is insufficient data to rate<br />his new firm.<br /><br />We agree that there should also be a category for NA.<br /><br />Not all collectors will be familiar with all auction houses.<br /><br />Collectors who have never consigned should not rate a company<br />on its consignment performance. By the same token, if you<br />have never bid in said organization's auction, it would not be<br />appropriate to rate the firm.<br /><br />Whilst the data won't be 100% accurate if we can secure 700-1500<br />completed questionnaires we will have some valuable information.<br /><br />If we want to go a step further we could ask all of the auction houses<br />for their mailing lists, go through a massive merge and purge exercise<br />and then mail the questionnaire. The question would be who will fund<br />it and how will the funders benefit.<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jimi</b><p>Good idea, but I think I will refrain from voting as well. I'm too scared to hurt people's feelings. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I mean, I'm not sure how sensitive Barry's feelings are, but I know if I wasn't even in the top 3, I'd be questioning myself. That's only because I'm one of those people who are always second guessing people's opinions about me. Barry has made personal accommodations for me before when I failed to read his auction directions, and he certainly didn't need to do that. I doubt some of the larger auction houses would do that. I think this is a great idea and am interested to see the results, however. Perhaps this will help me look into which auction house to start paying more attention to. Like Leon, though for different reasons, I think I'll pull up a chair and enjoy this thread.<br /><br /><br><br>Jimi

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jimi- I'm not sensitive and people are free to say what they want. I don't ask for any special privileges.<br /><br />Bruce- You are looking for 750-1500 responses, but I'll guess you will get 30 or 40.

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Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>No category for integrity, or confidence (perception) of integrity?

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Posted By: <b>Red</b><p>Need a category for good speller too.

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Let's judge the auction houses on how willing they are to give out free catalogs.<br /><img src="http://vbbc.forumotion.com/users/17/23/61/smiles/136179.gif">

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Quoting Bruce "If we want to go a step further we could ask all of the auction houses for their mailing lists"<br />I am an autograph dealer who has been around for a long time and have a very good mailing list. I would not give up that list for any amount of money. I doubt very much if the auction houses would give up their mailing lists. That is such an integral part of their business.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So far it's a dead heat, with every auction house tied at zero.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i vote: YES, Barry is sensitive.<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>A little sensitive, but people should say how they feel. Of course, this has been up all day and not one person has voted, so my guess is this survey will lay a dodo egg.

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Posted By: <b>ted</b><p>1. REA<br />2. Goodwin<br />3. Sloate<br />4.. Mastro<br />5. Hunt<br />6. SCP<br />7. Huggins and Scott<br />8. Collectable Classics<br /><br />maybe Lelands further down

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I didn't know Massachusetts had Republicans...but at least you voted. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>you know i'm bustin' your chops, barry...<br /><br />i would do the survey (great idea Bruce), but i think we need to put it into some sort of managable format (chart?)...maybe Leon can make a grid/chart and put it up on the board? otherwise, without a clean format, it will look chaotic, there's a ton of auction houses, and Bruce is suggesting 5 areas of critic...so let's think about a clean way of presenting the survey...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think Bruce means to take the five categories into account, and then list the auction houses in your order of preference. If you do it the other way then yes, you must have a spreadsheet.<br /><br />And I knew you were joking, but there was some truth to your jest. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>One category should measure perceived fraud perpetrated by the auction house.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Is perceived fraud admissable?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Here it is, sure. Certainly when one measures auction house as a whole, possibility of being a fraud victim is taken into account.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>How about present perceived fraud, past perceived fraud or both past and present perceived fraud? Personally, I don't see me making a grid as I already spend too much time on the board...

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, if an auction house has thought to have engaged in fraud chances are most would assume the practice will continue into the future. My point is that certain auction houses have great cards, great packaging, great bidding platforms but I'm certain have engaged in rampant shill bidding and other fraud. Obviously my ratings would be high for the former categories and low for the fraud category. Perceived fraud is certainly a more significant category than, say, packaging. (And no, I'm not referring to Sloate Auction. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>My packaging is middle of the road at best.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, you get some fancy tape with "SLOATE" written all over it and you'll leapfrog the competition in this survey.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>My goal is to be the best damn packer in the business!

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Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>But isn't ebay an auction house?

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Posted By: <b>Chuck Ross</b><p>Bruce, when you say we should rate the auction houses do you mean all of us or just you?

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>How many votes does each person get? I'd think 10 at most and no fewer than 5.<br /><br />We agree.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Barry, <br /><br />Massepublicans have a very desercning eye when it comes to auction houses. <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted</b><p>"My goal is to be the best damn packer in the business!"<br /><br /><br />Fudge? j/k Us Repubs USED to be few and far between, but most of the Mass people are coming to their senses <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Just watch out ofr those RICH republicans, you know, the ones Kerry is always tlaking about...SHEESH!

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Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>Don't you mean, "all of us or all of you..................."

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Abbreviating and expanding the categories as follows:<br /><br />Q = quality of rare (or maybe just vintage) material<br />Ds = quality of descriptions & overal presentation of material (print & web)<br />CS = customer service<br />Cg = timely payment to consignors<br />Sh = timely shipment of lots won<br />H = perception of integrity (positive, not perception of dishonesty)<br />$ = fees to house - catalog, buyer fee, consignor's fee, whatever.<br /><br />And since I didn't see it in the thread ... 1 = worst and 5 = best for the category<br /><br /><br />Goodwin Q 4 Ds 4 CS NA Cg NA Sh NA H 4 $ 3<br />Hunt Q 4 Ds 2 CS NA Cg NA Sh NA H 4 $ Not sure<br />Huggins Q 4 Ds 5 CS 5 Cg NA Sh 5 H 4 $ 4<br />Lelands Q 3 Ds 3 CS NA Cg NA Sh NA H 4 $ Not sure<br />Mastro(prem)Q 5 Ds 5 CS 4 Cg NA Sh NA H 2 $ 1<br />Mile H Q 3 Ds 4 CS NA Cg NA Sh NA H 1 $ Not sure<br />19CO Q 2 Ds 3 CS 5 Cg NA Sh 5 H 4 $ 4<br />REA Q 5 Ds 5 CS 5 Cg NA Sh 5 H 5 $ 3<br />Sloate Q 4 Ds 4 CS 5 Cg NA Sh NA H 5 $ 4<br />B/L Q 4 Ds 4 CS NA Cg NA Sh NA H 5 $ 5<br />Lipset Q 3 Ds 3 CS NA Cg NA Sh 5 H 4 $ 5<br /><br />Interesting exercise. I added a few and omitted those I'm completely unfamiliar with.<br /><br />I went a little higher for both catalog and internet, and a little more for descriptions that are more than one-liners and/or more extensive pictures. The 5's in the honesty category were for those that I thoguht had taken an affirmative step to do something more than just "be honest". Like sign on to MEARS policy, or disclose ownership, or otherwise make provisions to run a transparent auction that addresses some key hobby concerns.<br /><br />And I did just kind of wing it, so I'm sure someone could debate why so-and-so got a 3 while such-and-such got a 4 in the Ds category when so-and-so has 4.2 pictures per lot and such-and-such averages only 3.9 pictures per lot, or something like that. I'm sure there are inconsistencies. Oh well.<br /><br />J<br /><br />And ... it's about impossible to read. On my edit screen I have the scores lined up in columns with lots of space in between, but Preview shows me that the spaces will disappear when I post and they'll all be jammed together. Sorry about that - not sure how to format them but I'm posting it anyways.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Joann's got the biggest set of balls on the board. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Thanks Joann <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>DC</b><p>consigning with auction houses, I mean!<br /><br />I am just going to give those I have dealt with an overall grade as one consignment per does not--necessarily--mean alot. (1 is low and 5 is high)<br /><br />SCP - 1 <br />Lelands - 3.5<br />Huggins & Scott - 4<br />Heritage - 3<br /><br />DC<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>For the rest of this thread there won't be any anonymous posts allowed. If I don't know you then you need to put your full name and good email address with your post or just post in other threads. Nothing personal, just trying to keep it real.....warm regards

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>"Joann's got the biggest set of balls on the board."<br /><br />Well, um, thanks Jeff, I guess, for that ... er... compliment. Yes, compliment. I think. Gotta say that's the first time I've heard that one, or at least heard it put quite that way. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Clearly it's this exact kind of eloquence that leads you directly to success in the courtroom, right? lol<br /><br />Oh, and Leon, it's Joann Kline. At jmkline.at.juno.dot.com. I've been on an avoidance break for awhile, so just in case you'd forgotten. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>C'mon Joann. You're my favorite chick on the board <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>... Jeff does have a way with words doesn't he?

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Posted By: <b>DC</b><p>Message sent. <br /><br />DC

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Right Now on top are<br /><br />Mile High and Andy Madec--solely for reason they will hold stuff out of auctions or ebay and sell to me directly. Brian Drent was particularly helpful on this score this year.<br /><br />Goodwin next--I like Bill and buy from him regularly<br /><br />REA next-has taken a stand on hobby issues that I admire<br /><br />Mastronet next--they no longer fool with their cards I am told by Doug so I am now a buyer in their auctions!!<br /><br />Barry Sloate-if he had a psa 8 or better I needed for my sets I would buy but tends to deal in off-grade stuff. His switch to all graded auctions is a plus however.<br /><br />As for the rest, JP throws a good party at the National.<br /><br />Don't do much business with the remainder.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thanks Jim, but I've done graded card auctions for years. And I wouldn't consider 5, 6, and 7 off grade, but I understand where you are coming from.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"Mile High and Andy Madec--solely for reason they will hold stuff out of auctions or ebay and sell to me directly."<br /><br />Jim, i have to say that sounds like a pretty selfish reason to rank an auction house so high. we're trying to rank/dissect auction houses' ability to run an "auction", not sell direct on the side.<br /><br />Regards,<br />MS<br /><br />p.s. for the record, my comment has nothing to do with Mile High or Andy Madec

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Michael- I was thinking the same thing, but I decided to let you say it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>The fact that those two would sell directly to you Jim instead of running legit auctions on the cards would keep from ever consigning with either. Just who's cards are they selling to you direct anyway instead of auctioning?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>5, 6, and 7's are not off graded cards.<br /><br />almost every grade has its off graded versions, even 8's<br /><br />many 5, 6, and 7's can be high end for the grade.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>They aren't the only auction houses that do this, and sometimes it's in the consigners best interest to have a quick guaranteed sale brokered by the house. Additionally, the lot may be house owned, so they can do as they wish. <br /> It takes 2 to drive a lot up (unless it's being shilled or has a hidden reserve) and in the absence of an underbidder (or a bidder than will go considerably higher than a potential underbidder) a direct pre auction sale can be the best way of maximizing the consignors return. <br /> Not saying it's right in all cases, but it is certainly not limited to the auction houses Jim cited.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Anthony- i actually have little to no issue with auction houses doing this...my intent was to simply let Jim know that i think we are trying to "grade" auction houses on their ability to run auctions, not selling direct on the side.<br /><br />regards,<br />MS

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"The fact that those two would sell directly to you Jim instead of running legit auctions on the cards would keep from ever consigning with either. Just who's cards are they selling to you direct anyway instead of auctioning?"<br /><br />I do not see anything wrong with this at all. Obviously they do not sell consigned cards directly without the owner's consent. If the auction house or consignor gets an offer they are happy with before an auction has been publicized and starts, more power to them.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave Dave Dave--do we have to teach you everything about the hobby--we have to boost what collectors think of Alpharettians not diminish. I get hundreds and hundreds of offers to buy cards privately from dealers over the course of a year--if I had to worry about bidding in the auctions I would never finish my sets.<br /><br />Mike,<br /><br />Just rating the auction houses by what I think is important--I could care less about most of the material that Bruce suggests they be evaluated on--heck, seems like most posters are afraid to rate them period--I at least provide my own rating mechanism.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />Whats off-grade to some are great for others--you know I wish you the best.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>