A Collector, Mastro, PSA & Our Beloved Hobby

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>I’m going to discuss and bring all of you up to speed on a confusing situation that I have been roughly aware of for some time, and as of a few days ago in talking to some very long term collectors and hobby insiders was able to obtain even more info on an ugly situation for all of us.<br /><br />I’m going to keep this simple and to the point and as transparent as I can. This is not a bash anyone thread this is a thread with a purpose to inform you so you can be aware of what many of us view as questionable practices that happen in our hobby, and so that hopefully the right thing can be done for some of the parties involved who are out significant sums of money, and hopefully changes will be made to better this hobby down the road.<br /><br />Here is the summary of the issue of what I know and what I have been told. <br /><br />1.)It starts in the late 90’s early 2000 with a man named George Hober who had a little business empire going making doctored cards, of which one of his claims to fame is fake Snodgrass error cards “Nodgrass”. The problem with George like a lot of crooks was he was caught by the details, like grandpa always said it’s the little things that get you. <br /><br />2.)Hober’s downfall was his Nodgrass cards were impossible, wrong backs, wrong pose etc. not to mention but for those who don’t know the few real Nodgrass cards that are out there have some of the remaining “S” intact it’s one of the only ways to tell if you’re looking at a potential real Nodgrass if all the “S” is gone it’s bogus.<br /><br />3.)Despite these issues Hober did manage to pass off some cards to some pretty serious collectors and get these cards in reputable holders as well. <br /><br />4.)In the late 90’s early 2000 Hober dumped about 3-4 of these cards via eBay one of which is the very card that was withdrawn from the current Mastro auction picture below. There was also a raw catching pose Nodgrass sold to a collector but for now were going to focus on just two of Hober’s jobs.<br /><br />5.)The Cycle Nodgrass PSA 5, first of all not possible with the Cycle brand back or at least never found let’s say that, as anything I guess is possible to a degree. This card was won on eBay in 1999 for $9500 by a collector T206nate. The under bidder on this very card was another fellow collector which if I’m not mistaken was Doug Allen.<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/72372a.jpg"><br /><br />6.)Now from what I have been told and what I remember hearing from multiple people George Hober contacted the under bidder (Doug Allen) on the above card and sold yet another fake Nodgrass card for around 10k to Doug, this card was also graded by PSA. This card is even more odd as it was a catching pose Nodgrass which to date has never been found and does not exist.<br /><br />7.)Sometime passed and when Hober’s fraud came to light many collectors were left scrambling to see if that Nodgrass they bought was real or a fake, unfortunately for Doug and our collector they were in fact fake. I have been told on good authority that Doug was compensated in some way by PSA and Joe Orlando and the card (Catching Pose) was destroyed etc. However our collector wasn’t so lucky having doubts about the card and wanting to know he consigned the card to REA, who in turn raised the same questions about its authenticity. The collector having hit a brick wall in terms of support from PSA looked to REA to help him add resolve to the issue. Rob Lifson then sent the card to PSA and spoke with Joe Orlando directly about the cards legitimacy. Rob even sent Joe a copy of the collectors check (below) to George Hober as even more proof of the questionable nature of this card. PSA in turn told REA that they would stand behind the grade and the cards authenticity and felt it was fine. REA refused to sell the item then the card was returned from PSA to REA, Rob explained their position to the collector and returned the card to the consignor. <br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/nbr%20copy.jpg"><br /><i>omitted name and account number for obvious reasons</i><br /><br />8.)Now in 2008 this very card PSA 5 Cycle Nodgrass Batting shows up yet again in Mastro’s auction, the very card at one time that once again from what I have heard and remember Doug Allen was the under bidder on. This very card which came from George Hober, in which Doug was unfortunate enough to fall victim himself to this card doctors unsavory work. <br /><br />9.)Now I’d like to add and be clear that I give Mastro and Doug 100% the benefit of doubt here, these guys pump 100’s to 1000’s of lots on and through this auction house. They can’t personally overlook each and every card that passes through these front doors, kudos to Dan for catching it and Kudos to Doug for pulling it! <br /><br />However for me the plot continues to get confusing from here and that’s what troubles me the most and raises the most questions.<br /><br />After seeing this lot posted and caught by Dan McKee and hearing the stories and remembering this whole Nodgrass fake Hober history, I’d be lying if I didn’t say I raised an eyebrow. What really made me cringe was the disclaimer on the lot itself?<br /><br /> I’ve been bidding and watching Mastro lots since I was a kid; I don’t ever recall seeing a disclaimer like that on any lot do you? It made me wonder unless someone had firsthand knowledge of a cards questionable nature why protect yourself with a disclaimer passing off liability to another party?<br /> <br />Having heard the first hand stories and hobby talk which I brought you guys up to speed on about these Nodgrass cards, then seeing this very card end up in a Mastro auction with a disclaimer like no other before I really have to question what’s going on here. I also don’t want to jump to conclusions but I really hope this isn’t as ugly as it may seem, and let’s be honest here for a second this looks really bad not just for Mastro but especially for PSA!<br /><br />How about PSA? We pay these guys lots of coin to protect us from this stuff; we also put an enormous amount of faith in their product. Yet right now there is a PSA Nodgrass which is so bad you can smell it though the holder and it’s floating out there like a loaded gun waiting to go off again on some uneducated collector who is putting his faith and money in the very system these guys created to protect him. To me that’s a crying shame, and PSA should be ashamed of themselves!<br /><br />I’m asking and I think we all should be asking PSA to step up and make it right regardless of the fact that this card should have never made the auction block to begin with. This very card and this situation with Mastro & PSA is a serious problem, it’s stuff like this obvious issue that begs the question what else is slipping by, what else is going on and when will this house of cards (pun) fall down around our heads. <br /><br />I’m going to also add I really have no dog in this fight other than the fact that I love this hobby and really just want straight answers to this situation from all parties involved. I would also like to see the right thing done by way of PSA to the collector and ultimately all of us, as we all put a lot of faith and trust in PSA’s services and they need to be accountable and stand behind their product and service. If PSA won’t be accountable for this what services are they really offering us in the end, and by not doing the right thing today they are really devaluing all of our collections.<br /><br />I've also added an old SCD article that discusses these cards FYI.<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/huge/Untitled-1_1.jpg"><br />*if you need a larger copy I can email you one, just trying to keep the images down for easy nav*<br /><br />Thanks for your time and reading this long thread, I hope we can discuss this and spearhead at least a small step in the right direction together. <br /><br />Cheers,<br />John<br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>John- Great work, now THIS is what this board is supposed to be about!<br />tbob

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>John and others, it doesn't stop at cards. Americana lots are also subject to deceit. I have mentioned this before but I can't think of a better time to bring it up again.<br /><br /><img src="http://images.mastroauctions.com/images/Auction39/photographs/58581.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Much of this was not of significance, except for the button worn by a passenger that night. I called and they faxed over some of the provenance, part of which read:<br /><br />*********************<br /><br />"This is not a prop from the motion picture Titanic <br /><br />It is a real piece of Titanic history<br /> <br />I am offering a very ornate button that was owned by a survivor of the Titanic. This buttons history is traced back to a couple that lived in Boston, Mass. I had originally been informed that the family name was Hopper but this is not the case. This button adorned a jacket owned by a first class passenger named Mrs. Harris. We believe that Mrs. Harris had traveled with her maid that had the last name Hopper and the first name Mary. <br /><br />After the tragic event Mrs. Harris moved to Maryland and lived out the remainder of her life until her death at the age of 77. <br /><br />The button has small blue gemstones....some are missing. <br /><br />We are not sure how this happened, but rumors were told to me that it quite possibly happened the very night Titanic sank (this is not a certain fact)"<br /><br />*********************<br /><br />Mrs. Harris lived and died in NY at the age of 93 and was not known to have traveled with a maid (just her husband). Also there is no listing of passenger named Mary Hopper on the Titanic. <br /><br />They still kept the auction going and eventually sold them to some unsuspecting collector...even after they were told there was no supporting evidence that the passenger listed in their description ever existed and that the seller was a suspected ebay fraudster.<br /><br />Other Titanic experts questioned the photo and watch fob as well but I have no idea about their authenticity.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I would really like the opportunity to examine one of these fake Nodgrass cards in person.<br /><br /><br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There are an awful lot of troubling stories that get posted on this board seemingly every day. It can get pretty depressing after a while.<br /><br />What is preposterous about this is how a "Nodgrass, catching" could possibly exist. The batting variation was caused by a tiny foreign object that lodged into the "S" of the printing plate. Are we supposed to believe that the batting pose, which appeared in a different spot on the sheet if not on a different sheet, had the same foreign object lodged in the exact same place on its "S"? What's the likelihood of that?

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>John, thanks for the great research. Most of my T-cards are raw, but when I buy one of the more expensive T's or Goudey's I prefer to buy a graded example precisely to help protect myself against fakes, trims, and alterations. <br /><br />I would guess that the Magee would be more difficult to alter than the Snodgrass, but does anyone know of any similar situations with the altered Magie error cards making it through the grading process?<br /><br />Rick

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>PSA should do the right thing and buy back this card from the owner and destroy it. Matter of fact they should of done it years ago especially after Rob sent it to them and pointed out there mistake. When a company can not admit it is wrong it is a bad day for the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Maybe Doug Allen can contact PSA and get the original owner's money back. After all, Doug seems to have incredibly good luck when it comes to his own dealings with PSA.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It seems as though many auction companies have really good luck at getting what they want from PSA......Brockelman and Luckey Auctions not so much <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, I'm guessing when B & L breaks into 8 figures of gross sales a year your luck with PSA will mysteriously increase. Just a hunch. Good thing you bought all that stuff from Mastro -- those winnings put up on B & L will surely get you closer to that goal. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>PSA needs to step up and get all these bogus Nodgrass cards that they authenticated out of the hobby.<br /><br />End of discussion as far as i am concerned.<br /><br />Especially when Joe emailed me and stated "Our warranty applies to everything we look at. If the graders determine that to be the case, then the warranty applies."<br /><br /><br />Steve <br /><br /><br />edited to add: great thread John.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Human beings make mistakes (except for me of course). That isn't news and it isn't a surprise. PSA's graders flubbed on the nodgrass cards? It happens. However, human beings own up to their mistakes and try to make them right. Crapweasels evade, dissemble and avoid their mistakes. What doesn't bother me is that the human beings grading cards occasionally make errors. What very much bothers me is that the crapweasels running PSA try to hide from their graders' mistakes. We've seen enough of these occurrences that we know behaving like crapweasels is SOB at PSA. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Hahahaha. Crapweasels. hahahaha. Best one I've heard in a long time. <br /><br />You are exactly right Adam. It's not the understandable and even absorbable mistake. It's the attempt to walk away from it.<br /><br />I have a guy in my dept that does the same thing. He is generally good enough to afford some mistakes and has made a few very understandable mistakes recently. But for some reason he wants to spin and recharacterize his actions and misrepresent facts and all manner of things. I kind of pounded him for it Monday. And although he doesn't know it, this poor unfortunate soul will now always be 'crapweasel' to me whenever I see him. lolol<br /><br />But it does leave an interesting option out there for PSA. If they do not intend to refund anything to the buyer, they should at least provide a lucid and clear and non-crapweasely explanation for why they should not have to bear the financial burden alone. There may be such reasons.<br /><br />Does it make a difference if the buyer knew or should have known that it was a fake? Does the extent of reliance on the PSA flip matter? Would the same fake have sold for a similar amount raw? Did the buyer look at the PSA flip as a certification of the error, or did he just look at it as giving a condition grade? How much do these things matter?<br /><br />I think PSA is at least on the hook for presenting an argument. I also think they should be on the hook for the money in general. But I can also think of several kinds of circumstances in which it might be unfair to ask them to take all responsibility. It seems like it would be in their best interests to point out those circumstances, if they exist.<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />ETA: And now that I think about it some more, I think that Mastro should also give some lucid and clear and non-crapweasely explanation for why it was in their auction, and even more important why it had such and odd and unnerving disclaimer.<br /><br />Not that any business owes explanations - not at all. But it's hard to see how explanations wouldn't be a good idea for both PSA and Mastro from a business sense. It seems like the industry and community will decide that if no explanations are given, it is because none are available. And that can't be good for either business.

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Posted By: <b>Phil B.</b><p>PSA, which is now part of a publicly traded company, is going to one day have to answer for their many transgressions several of which have been brought to light on this board. I have had similar issues as the one originated in this post- but my most recent bothersome example of PSA's lack of care was when I submitted two '33 Goudey Ruth's which I received back in a box ungraded with no explanation of any kind- however, PSA charged the grading fees. I emailed customer service assuming there had been some mistake. Did someone accidentally just mail them back to me? Were the cards deemed to be ungradeable for some reason? Doesn't the charging of a fee to me imply that I am entitled at least to an explanation of what service I received for the fee charged? I emailed customer service- nothing. I mailed customer service- nothing. I wrote a letter directly to Joe Orlando- nothing. So I paid $60 to have two perfectly good cards mailed back to me in a box. Both were ultimately graded by SGC although one was graded Authentic (trimmed).<br /><br />I predict (and hope) that PSA or CU will eventually become the defendant in a lawsuit either regarding a particular high value mess like the one in this post- or perhaps a class action suit from a group of similarly mistreated parties who band together. PSA assumes that the little guy will just slink away - which is partly why the known "big boys" are possibly better catered to. But the little guy will not sit by silently forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I spoke to Doug Allen today. He said that in the middle of a big auction he is not going to try to tackle commenting on this issue but will do so afterwards. He absolutely admits it was a mistake to run the card and they pulled it. The good news is that he has the card in his possession and it's not going anywhere where it will be mistaken for a legit Nodgrass card. He also said he spoke to Joe O about it in the last day or so and they have agreed to revisit the whole issue soon. I would guess that Joe will make it right, buy the card back and get it out of a PSA holder. It can't be good for his company to have that card in a holder. Once again, Doug said he will make a statement concerning this card after the auction is over....I would venture to guess it will be within a week or two as I am sure he and Joe have to hash it out and they are both busy folks. For the record I am not a Joe O hater or a PSA hater. I wish Joe would return my calls to talk but no big deal. I have been dismissed by worse folks. <br /><br />One other thing.....Doug told me to let ALL net54 VBCF members know that his offer is still good for the waiving of the $75 sign up fee for any member here to Mastro Auctions. All you have to do is mention Network54 and that Doug said it would be a courtesy registration and you will be set. If anyone has an issue while doing this just email me or Doug and it will get fixed immediately. This offer is in effect until there is something written that it is no longer in effect. Hope this helps a little bit. Everyone can take my bias into account in this post but the facts I have presented are what they are. I like Doug and Mastro Auctions as I do most other auction companies....advertiser or not. best regards

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, I'd love to know how frequently Joe and Doug already discussed this card. And what information was previously provided to Doug about this card which caused Mastro to slide in that weak disclaimer.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I doubt that you have beed dismissed by worse Leon. WOW! A truly thorough post Sir John. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Matt R</b><p>LOL, I thought it was bad that a drunk guy could get two out of three trimmed cards past their graders. This takes the prize. I work for Amazon.com and if a similar damning issue hit our company I would imagine Jeff Bezos would have us handing out refunds or free gift certificates right and left until everyone affected was happy. What is this card worth? $10K or so? Why would you put your entire company's reputation on the line for $10K? I'd like to hear their side of the story. I'm not too familiar with the "Nodgrass" error card but it sounds like it's a slam dunk case that the card is bogus.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Yes slam dunk bad, no doubt about it. Unfortunately PSA doesn't have the knowledge of 90% of the board members here yet they never bother to contact any of us for help that I know of.

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Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>Great post! Rational, well-thought-out arguments, but, in the end, very sad.<br /><br />This third party grading situation is getting more and more like Alice in Wonderland<br />every day. Like, read THIS disclaimer from a Ruth ball (Lot 1509) from the Mastro auction:<br /><br /><i><b>(The relic's legitimacy is so certain, in our view, that Mastro Auctions is presenting the Mint-condition gem without a PSA letter, as that company declined to provide one.) LOA from James Spence Authentication.</b></i><br /><br />The lot was withdrawn despite the "so certain" legitimacy because, according to an e-mail from Allen, James Spence "was not comfortable with the autograph." Maybe it's more like Spy vs. Spy.<br /><br />I don't read this board as often as I once did, so forgive me if there already was a discussion about Robert Lifson's excellent blog post (on REA's site) about authentication. While I might not agree with his arguments from a legal perspective, I SO love his notion that IF YOU DON'T BUY THE PREMISE of third party authentication, then DON"T BUY AUTOGRAPHS (or baseball cards). Amen.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, Joe, I had a feeling you might like this thread. Seemed a tad up your alley. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Twenty two years I am in this hobby and it used to be a whole lot more fun.<br />Forgers of autographs, card doctors, questionable authentications, questionable grading, scams on the internet, multiple e bay crooks, crooked auction houses that take six months to pay consignors, crooked auction houses with shill bidders, Babe Ruth signed baseball that is certainly good and then withdrawn by the auction, TVreports about the hobby all of them negative,an error card that vanishes from an auction, the FBI's involvment in the hobby.<br />What a freakin' mess!<br />-- <br /><br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>On the nosie!!! Thanks for the perfect analogy Joseph.<br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Did PSA make a mistake? Did Spence make a mistake? Did he cave so Mastro could save face? <br /><br />All this, and it's apparently good as well.<br /><br />Stay tuned for our next episode of As The Ball Turns.

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Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>I think, to a certain extent, all these "mistakes" have to be judged on intent. <br /><br />What i mean by that is... If PSA makes right on the "Nodgrass", then at the end of the day, i think it ends up being a good story about the hobby, not a bad one. Sure, it stinks that the card got into a holder in the first place, but thats human error. The major auction houses put out several thousand lots each year and to only have an issue with a few, really isnt a bad percentage. While everyone would like it to be a perfect hobby, it never was, and never will be. <br /><br />It is hard to judge intent though.. Take the Ruth ball. While it would be great for PSA and JSA to agree on EVERY autograph, thats not going to happen. So as an auction house, you have to say either... A- we are only going to take items that BOTH agree on (which will lose them money at times) or B- Do what they think is truly right. It appears that (and im guessing here) that greed got the best of Mastro at first and then when they got a little heat, they rethought things and made the right decision. Again, at the end of the day, they got it right. <br /><br />The bigger issue is with truly crooked people.. The found cards in the grandparents attic..... blatant forgers.....Shill bidding auction houses, etc.... Im not a lover of PSA or JSA or Mastro or REA.. and they all make mistakes but in the long run I think that they do try there best to "get it right" and i think thats all you can ask for. If everyone did that, slowly, maybe the hobby would be "more fun" like it was 20 years ago.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>20 years ago people were trimming, recoloring and forging auto's anyone ever hear of<br /> a store in Westchester call Fantasia? Slimy buyers offering peanuts for collections?<br />Slimy sellers claiming everything was mint? <br /><br />I think the hobby as a whole is much better off now then it was then. I have been in this hobby for <br />almost 40 years. The 80's were the worst.<br /><br /> The problem as I see it is that we hear about all the negative<br />stuff more often now.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Was Fantasia the store that was owned by Danny Dubcek?<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Leon;<br /><br />Good stuff, thanks for speaking with Doug I understand busy all to well, I’m really looking forward to hearing Doug’s side of the story on this when he gets a little less busy via the auction etc.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />John<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Doug emailed me over the weekend and gave me his side of the story. I won't post his emails but the bottom line is this:<br /><br />Mastro put that disclaimer in the listing solely due to the concerns voiced by the consignor of the legitimacy of the card. The person at Mastro who handled the consignment did not do any follow-up to attempt to learn whether that information was right or wrong; a disclaimer was just put in the listing. In fact, the first time Doug (or anyone from Mastro) has ever spoken to Joe O (or anyone from PSA) about the card was this past weekend.<br /><br />When the history of the card was brought to Doug's attention he pulled the card from the auction.<br /><br />Doug will send the card to Joe for his review.<br /><br />And there you have it.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>I have my own opinion on all and i mean all Nodgrass cards with no S or partial S. They are all doctored. I do not have any proof but think about this. Major hobby pioneers and other t206 collectors collecting for what 90 years. And all of a sudden these cards just show up 10 or so years ago. I would love to have MR. Lipsets opinion on this as well as some other hobby veterens Mr Carter comes to mind.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Was Fantasia the store that was owned by Danny Dubcek?<br /><br /><br />Yes<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Nick</b><p>So let me get this right... <br /><br />Mastro gets a consignment in which the consignor himself voices some concern over the cards legitimacy and they do NO looking further? That sounds very odd. I know they have a ton of lots, but this isnt a $5 card we are talking about. <br /><br />To me, the fact that the consignor raised questions (and they did nothing) makes Mastro look worse. I am glad that they did the right thing at the end of the day though. Now if PSA makes right, it appears all will have a happy ending.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>"So let me get this right... <br /><br />Mastro gets a consignment in which the consignor himself voices some concern over the cards legitimacy and they do NO looking further? That sounds very odd. I know they have a ton of lots, but this isnt a $5 card we are talking about."<br /><br />Agreed.<br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Patrick, my Nodgrass error was acquired in the 1970s and for no extra money. You are completely all wet! There are legit ones.<br /><br />Also, I know for a FACT that the original consigner to this Nodgrass tried to contact Doug Allen directly several times via email and phone and that Doug would NOT get back to him. I was carboned on every email.<br /><br />The original owner NEVER sent the card to PSA for multiple reviews. He contacted Joe Orlando after Robert Lifson stated that it was bad and Joe Orlando stated that any other auction house will auction it.<br /><br />Enough with the dancing around here, the card is bad and Doug knows it and Joe knows it. And they both KNOW it. Sorry Doug, this is ridiculous at this point.<br /><br />Tell your buddy to refund Nate and be done with it. PSA looks horrible as usual with customer service!<br /><br />Sincerely disappointed<br />Dan Mckee

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, that's their story and they are sticking to it. <br /><br />I wonder if anyone at Mastro has ever heard of the term "conscious avoidance"? Perhaps not.

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>I really don't understand why PSA wouldn't take that card out of circulation. Whatever they have to do to get that card they should do it. Makes no sense. It looks very bad on their part in my opinion.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>You want to know why PSA won't take the card out of circulation???? <P><br />$9500.00 is why!

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Hopefully they do the right thing and deal with it.<br /><br />I found this board around the time Dan had his issue with PSA and the Magie card. (I think I got that right) I read it from time to time but only got back into card collecting this past year. Good too see the board is still going strong. (Bad to see that their are still fraudulent activities going on in this great hobby)

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Posted By: <b>Joe K.</b><p>So Doug didn’t know this card, which he knew to be bogus, was in his auction? Not until Dan catches it and informs Doug is it pulled? Huh??... I would think Doug would have seen it and immediately recognized it in his own auction. I know there are tons of lots but I would think Doug previews/scans the auction at least once at a high level before it goes live or at least when it goes live. Maybe next time he should spend some time perusing his own catalog. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Let it be known that Mastro Auctions did the right thing ONLY AFTER Dan Mckee forced their hand. The card was put up and with the extra verbiage for a reason. There was no way I was going to let this garbage stay up and burn someone. I contacted Doug and to his credit, he removed the item from auction. Now he needs to get Joe Orlando to refund the owner. This should have NEVER gone this far. As soon as the card was mailed to Mastro Auctions, PSA should have been told it was bad and to refund the owner. Actually, once Robert Edward Auctions refused the card, PSA should have refunded the owner as Rob Lifson has forgotten more than any PSA employee will ever know about pre-war cards. But PSA knowing the card would be sent to Mastro Auctions, thought they had an out! Kudos to Doug for pulling this POS and hopefully making it right for the owner of the card. Thanks Joe Orlando, always a pleasure, Dan.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Hey Leon, has Joe Orlando returned your calls yet??

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>sure....once upon a time......

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>Dan Thanks for your info. Card found in 70's has changed my view. Much respect Dan. Guess I will buy the first round! Patrick.

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Posted By: <b>Bill Todd</b><p><br />If you do the right thing, but for the wrong reason, then it's the wrong thing.<br /><br />"Oops" is the right thing. "Well, if we have to" is not.<br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Let's see Classic Collector auction "Nodgrass" card no disclaimer...this Auction and this "Nodgrass" card with disclaimer?????<br /><br />Both "Nodgrass" cards in hand, one has discalimer one doesn't hmmmm...still scratching my head here in PA.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />John

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>WOW! Never thought of this???? Very interesting, they must have had both Nodgrass cards at the same time. What is the explanation???

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Owner of the Nodgrass was told that this would be taken care of by the end of last week. Today is a new week and he has received no communication nor restitution. I really think all of us, graded card collectors and raw card collectors alike need to pay attention to this particular situation and how it is resolved.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Still no input from Doug either, I thought Doug said when things calmed down with the auction he would chime in....did I read that wrong?

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I am very surprised at that myself. Mastro Auctions is very good about coming on the board and addressing issues. Several past posts have been addressed by Doug. I am mindboggled.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Doug sent me this update this morning....cut and pasted with his permission. I don't blame him for not wanting to post after historical issues....<br /><br />"As promised I wanted to shoot you an update on the Nodgrass card.<br /> <br />I sent the card back to PSA wtih a detailed explanation of the history<br /> and my concerns with what exactally has been done to the card. I have<br /> asked him to crack the card and examine it. I explained how if he holds<br /> the raw card at 45 degree angle he can see the "sheen" the erasure<br /> process has left on the affected error. I explained a loupe will not detect<br /> the alteration. He has promised to reveiw it and get back to me. He<br /> indicated he has never been contacted or has to his knowledge seen this<br /> particular card.<br /> <br />I have been in contact with the consignor and he is satisfied with the<br /> pace and status of this investigation.<br /> <br />Regards,<br />Doug"<br /><br /><br /><br />edited my own typo <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks for the update from Doug and Leon. Doug has done his job as the president of a major auction house. And Leon, thanks for communicating. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I wonder why Doug didn't take any action when he first received the card and was presented with its purported problems. No contact with PSA until just days ago according to him - even though he had his own personal experience with a Nodgrass fraudulent card.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>First let me say I guess I can understand Doug not wanting to post, but then again I think some direct input via Mastro would go a lot farther than this arms distance via Leon. <br /><br />Second I guess I should thank Doug for looking into this, but the other part of me says I shouldn’t be grateful about this. This is what should have been done long ago; nobody is doing anyone any favors here. <br /><br />PSA needs to stand behind their product long discussions shouldn’t be needed here to have PSA review this item. We have a fake card in a holder which PSA deemed legit. They (PSA) should be jumping over walls to get this card back in hand and review… and Mastro should be seriously looking into why this card was ever placed up for auction in the first place and who approved this lot and disclaimer with or without Doug’s approval.<br /><br /> Also are you sure PSA has never seen this card?? Are we 100% sure of this? <br /><br />To me this whole thing is a mess I can’t believe we all are so relaxed about this, Doug and Mastro have no prior knowledge of this card, yet this card gets a disclaimer? Funny the other Nodgrass cards auctioned as recent as the previous auction had no such disclaimer. <br /><br />Nobody finds this the least bit odd? We can post till our fingers bleed about eBay scammers and reprints that wouldn’t fool Stevie Wonder, but this real issue is staring us in the face and we are all content with the "our bad will look into this" reponse??<br /><br />Somebody’s not being 100% on the level with us (PSA, Mastro, and Consignor) IMO, and I think this really raises a lot more questions. <br /><br />The questions aren’t really about the card or if it’s legit here folks, we already know the answer. <br /><br />The questions are very clear and have been shuffled around or passed over IMO by the parties at hand Mastro included. <br /><br />Here is what we should be asking and have asked which have really yet to be explained…<br /><br />How did this card get into a holder to begin with?<br /><br />Why did PSA stonewall or delay this card the first few times, and now only at this point is willing to review almost as if their doing us a favor?<br /><br />How did this card end up in a Mastro Auction and end up being the only lot to ever carry such a disclaimer if Mastro really had no knowledge of this card and its history?<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />John<br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>"Also are you sure PSA has never seen this card?? Are we 100% sure of this? "<P>Comical that this is even a question.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Found this in my inbox today from Rob (Hi Rob) thought this was intresting to say the least!<br /><br />"He has promised to reveiw it and get back to me. He indicated he has never been contacted or has to his knowledge seen this particular card."<br /><br />PSA I think owes you and REA an appology Doug and us an explination…seems Joe is having some memory problems. This just into my inbox…from Rob Lifson..with his permission to post Leon.<br /><br />__________________________________________________ _________________________________<br /><br />From: Robert Lifson [<a href="mailto:info@robertedwardauctions.com">info@robertedwardauctions.com</a>] <br />Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:11 PM<br />To: wonkaticket@comcast.net<br />Subject: FW: snodgrass<br /><br /> <br />Dear Mr. Wonkaticket, I have been directed to the Net54 thread regarding the Nodgrass card, specifically the recent post by Leon for Doug Allen. With reference to the sentence that suggests that REA did not contact PSA about this card, there appears to be a misremembance. In addition to referencing this card (and its status as being sent to the grading company) in a public interview with the Sports Collectors Daily published on November 1, 2007, REA also has emails, witnesses, phone records, and Fed Ex records that prove that we did communicate with PSA and send the card to them for review specifically because it was not real and we would not auction it.<br /><br />As I read the post above, it is saying otherwise. I am writing only to correct this error. Also, attached is a copy of the executed PSA submission form that was sent back to us with the fake Nodgrass card when it was returned to REA by PSA (we then sent the card back to the consignor, and we have the Fed Ex records, as well as correspondence, documenting this return as well). <br /><br />You are welcome to post this email and/or and the attached PSA submission scan if you would like, to clear up any misconception regarding the claims that have been posted implying that REA did not contact, email, personally speak with PSA, and/or send the card in for review, as we did ALL of these things, and we can prove it. <br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Robert Lifson<br />President<br />Robert Edward Auctions, LLC<br /><br /><i>Here is the attached form</i><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/large/snodgrass%20PSA%20form.jpg"><br /><br />*Here is the second email Mr. Lifson sent*<br />__________________________________________________ _____________________________________<br /><br />From: Robert Lifson [<a href="mailto:info@robertedwardauctions.com">info@robertedwardauctions.com</a>] <br />Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 1:08 PM<br />To: wonkaticket@comcast.net<br />Subject: FW: nodgrass<br /><br />Dear Mr. Wonkaticket, In addition to the PSA submission scan, per your request is am forwarding this second email (with REA's scan of the fake Nodgrass card attached) that REA sent to PSA prior to sending the card in for review via Federal Express, and you are welcome to use this to further establish that an error has occurred with reference to claims implying that REA did not contact PSA about the fake Nodgrass card. <br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Robert Lifson<br />President<br />Robert Edward Auctions, LLC<br /><br />-----Original Message-----<br />From: Robert Lifson [<a href="mailto:info@robertedwardauctions.com">info@robertedwardauctions.com</a>] <br />Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:49 AM<br />To: 'Joe Orlando'<br />Subject: FW: nodgrass<br /><br />Hi Joe! Here is a scan of the T206 nodgrass so you can check the cert # and see who submitted it and when in case this provides valuable info. I'll get this out to you today for tomorrow delivery. Here is the name and # of the consignor (below). He was fine with us sending it in for your review. The guy he bought it from was a guy named George Hober (don't know him but apparently this is not isolated with this guy). Happy to be out of the loop on this - the owner of the card's contact info is:<br /><br />Nate Racine <br /><br />P.O.Box *** <br /><br />Zephyr Cove, NV. 89448 <br /><br />775-***-****<br /><br />and his email address if you need it is: nbracine@****.net<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Rob L<br /><br />Robert Lifson<br />President<br />Robert Edward Auctions, LLC<br />__________________________________________________ _____________________________<br /><br /><i>Note the email did contain consignors info I have edited it out for his privacy also a copy of the this card was attached FYI</i><br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/72372a.jpg"><br /><br /><br />I’m thinking of doing an investgative report called the Wonkaticket Hour I’ll be right on after Hugh Downs…all joking aside what's going on here???<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Currently on ebay, there is a graded (SGC 40) T206 Bud SHAPPE with an EPDG back.<br /><br />Do we know if this silly printing flaw is compatible with an EPDG back ?<br /><br />The normal Bud Sharpe card is found with an EPDG back.<br /><br />We need for you to do some more of your fine investigative reporting on this card.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Ted, stay on subject here. Dan. I am chop busting u, I luv u.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>WHOA! PSA caught in a lie??? <br /><br />Shocking...

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Posted By: <b>Phil B.</b><p>As Mr. Wonka so correctly points out- the appearance of impropriety here is disturbing and unmistakable. And for the offending parties to be unwilling to comment directly or to respond with continuing misrepresentations of the truth is unacceptable. Without meaning to turn this into a PSA bashing thread- PSA seems to have a deep seeded defect in their corporate philosophy. In an industry where reputation and customer service count for everything- they no longer seem to care about either of these things. Time and again they demonstrate a pompous(P), self-serving(S) arrogance(A). It seems to me the veterans on this board that are most respected are often cited for their honesty, integrity, availability and fair dealing. Once you lose these things- you can't really ever get them back.

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>I wish everyone would just stop unjustly bashing on PSA.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Be advised you need to be well known (by at least me) or put your full contact info out here if you want to post in this thread anymore. regards

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Posted By: <b>Phil B.</b><p>I always felt I was well known at least in my own small circles. My wife very rarely lets me out of the house but one day when I am allowed to attend a National I will surely introduce myself to you. In the meantime I am Phil Bornstein and you can always contact me at gnaabstract@nyc.rr.com

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My apologies for not knowing you well. I am sure you are a stand up guy like 99% of the rest of the board. I look forward to meeting you at the National and shooting the breeze. Hopefully you will make our Net54 VBCF Dinner on Thursday evening too....It will be a few feet from the Convention at the Embassy Suites....more details coming on that in the future.....take care

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Is it possible that Mastro and PSA were separated at birth?

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Please "stop unjustly bashing on PSA."<br /><br />Thank you. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>True, true. That was a lowblow to PSA. There goes my shot at the HOF.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Have you heard if this has been resolved yet by PSA? Dan.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>what happened to:<br /><br />a) the Matty portrait with the bogus Red Hindu back?<br /><br />and/or<br /><br />B) the bogus Drum Cobb batting pose card?<br /><br />I thought SGC? destroyed the Matty maybe 6 years ago?<br /><br />where did these two cards that sold for strong money in holders go?<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Just saw the ad above, just curious if the best people & the best service have sorted this out yet?

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>PSA Rule 1<br />a) Never admit to anything <br />b) it'll blow over <br />c) only 0.0x % of our customers read this board <br />d) the person who inadvertently graded this card (and coincidentally convinced everyone else that saw it during the review that it was real) has since left our employ (applicable for any grading error)<br />e) bury head in sand so that only Nicholas Cage or Harrison Ford can find us<br /><br />PSA Rule 2 - When caught in a lie, see Rule 1<br /><br />PSA Rule 3 - When Mastro is involved, take the blame by applying Rule 2

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, those pictures look like mug shots.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Bump to stay on top until PSA does what is RIGHT!

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>So do we have refund and a bad card out of the hobby yet? <br /><br />Or will I be watching this on eBay later this year???

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>John, <br /><br />Take a look at this months SMR. I would at least bet a $1 that the editors commentary may have some genesis with yourself.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Really any details Mike?<br /><br />Foolishly I’ve let my subscription to SMR & Cock Fighting Weekly both lapse.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Beavis</b><p>He said "cock"...he he <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, your loss -- you'd be shocked to see who was the centerfold in this week's CFW. All I'll tell you is that he was completely buck naked with just a low grade E90-1 Jackson hiding the family jewels.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jeff really? Wow that sounds spicy! <br /><br />It's a shame I can't see it but it was either new snow tires for the home or the magazine sometimes life has choices ya know. I also know what an avid collector of the magazine you are so I wont ask you to forward when you're done.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Enough about cockfighting!! Who would want a cock-tainted magazine anyway? Mostly people hoping to move up to triple wides I guess.....I hear they get good mpg though...so that's always a plus......

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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>Check the back of that card

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>swept.under.rug

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>PSA.....Mastro...Anyone....Nodgrass...out of the loop or onto the next poor fool?<br /><br />I see the deadline for the auction is June 6th...I guess the deadline for this simple question which has been asked dozens of times now...is the 12th of Never.<br /><br />I'll pay $75 for the answer...wait I dont have to Lichtman already paid it for me. LOL

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Posted By: <b>Scott Sarian</b><p><img src="http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/scooter0729/cardback.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Joe contacted the owner of the Nodgrass last week and said it would be taken care of this week. Today is Friday and I have heard nothing. I just do not understand why they wouldn't take care of this way back when to be done with it. Oh, yes I do, they should have done that with my Magie but elected to get destroyed in court by Perry Mason.

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Posted By: <b>Ted</b><p>PSa buys the card, destroys it, and never mentions it again. I have a feeling that the issue is that if they didd indeed grade an altered card, they dont want to admit. So buy, even with a straw buyer with a TOP all bid, why not since your ENTIRE reputation is at stake right? Then destoy it or put it under the glass on the desktop. Just my 2 cent, but the card should be bought back somehow and destroyed

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>The card is in PSA's possession I believe and you will not see the alteration by putting a glass on it.