UPDATE: T206 Murr'y Variation grades an SGC 40

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>I picked this up today at one of my local shows. Is this the real deal before I send it in to SGC?<br /><br /><a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/995/scan0003gx8.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a><br /><br /><a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8048/scan0004bm3.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a>

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>it appears to be legit...<br /><br />i'm just a little concerned that there is paper loss at the bottom. it is hard to tell from your scan, if the paper loss interferes with the "A"?<br /><br />i am sure kevin will respond momenteraly and comment.<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>I agree with Michael on this one. The bad news is the paper loss is on the bottom edge and it is difficult to tell from your scan if the "A" is part of that.<br /><br />The good news, and having owned one before I speak from up close experience, having a small portion of the 2nd "R" missing is consistent with other ones, so my inclination is to say this is a good example.<br /><br />what back does the card have?

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>I swear I am seeing an outline of the right-hand portion of the "A" in both scans. You would benefit from posting an enlarged scan. Perhaps Barry, Ted, Dan, or someone of similar esteem could comment.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>Mike and Rob: Thanks for your responses. As for the paperloss on the bottom edge of the card, it has no interference with the "A". It looks like it is just true chipping.<br /><br />As for the back of the card: <a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7721/scan0005ov2.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p><a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4748/scan0006ms7.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a>

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>A genuine Murray will have a dot where the "A" belongs, so that's a good sign. The paper loss in that area may make it tough to get graded. But looks good to me.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>From a "genuine Murray" I say it's good and would grade. Paper loss does not appear to affect the printing.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Glad you posted the enlarged scan. I no longer see what I mentioned, which is obviously to your advantage.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>thanks for the larger scan...looks like you're good to go...<br /><br />good pick-up...send off to SGC

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>edit...double post.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>agreed, looks like a good example to me. congrats.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>Thanks to everyone who has responded. The card will be shipped off to SGC on Monday and I will let you guys know how it turns out.<br /><br />Best<br /><br />Turner

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>It looks to me as if the damage extends well into the text where the "A" is located. It's difficult to tell without viewing the card in person, but from the scan, I'd say it's bogus.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jeff S.</b><p>Nice Find Turner - can I ask whether it was sold as a "Murr'y" variation, or was it missed?

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>Hi Jeff: <br /><br />To answer your question, the seller didn't know what he had.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>That variation can not be found on that back. Lenox and Tolstoi only. Dan.<br /><br />Though that blown up scan looks interesting. Did you pick this up in PA by any chance?

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>Hi Dan: you could be right? I've been studying and the card was only thought to exist with a Lenox back, until a Tolsoi back surfaced. Could be the same for Piedmont.<br /><br />Edited to add: picked up in Columbus, OH.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I just pulled my Lenox one out and it is EXACTLY like this one! I say this one is a new discovery on a Piedmont back. Even with Hober work, there is no way he could laser off the exact right pieces of the R next to it. Very cool card and a great score!

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jeff S.</b><p>Does anyone have any other "Murr'y" scans?

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>coming right up

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p><IMG src="http://www.danmckee.com/pictures/murray001.jpg"><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=danmckeesimagesaretoolarge.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/danmckeesimagesaretoolarge.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br />edited to resize second image.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Seth B.</b><p>I think Turner has a real error card: the print breaks in the M and in the bottom right corner of the N seem to be consistent. The story about how it was sold makes it all the more believable. Nice find!

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Seth B, agreed. Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Dan,<br />You should get yours graded too. I think PSA has a special this week. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Sounds great Jim, what is the special? You may have to submit it for me as Joe Orlando told me that I could never use their service again. Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I'm convinced you can make any T206 variation that has part or all of a letter removed and get it past almost anyone. It just takes a lot of time and many many steps. Couldn't say unless I saw it in person but from the scan it looks good. Sometimes you have to look past the obvious and examine other areas of the card...front and back.<br /><br />I would just send the Murray in. Better to PSA though, since they are so knowledgable with the Nodgrass (LOL). Which I might add, can be made with the partial "s" as well.<br /><br />I've shown this home-made Shappe error before but not sure it has been this close. It's currently with Global on a traveling doctored card display. From my understanding it freaks everyone out...to include Baker. Even I have a difficult time finding the alteration in person. <br /><br />To think the Toront made-error came out even better. <br /><br /><img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/shappe_veryLarge.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><i>there is no way he could laser off the exact right pieces of the R next to it.</i> <br /><br />Sure...it can be done. Same proceedure as leaving the tip or the "R" on Shappe, just makes it harder to do. A laser?<br /><br /><br />Hope this helps!<br /><br />Kevin<br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Yes possible Kevin but much tougher I think to do that right side of the 2nd R in Murray than that post on the ShaPPe. What makes that ShaPPe fake? I am shocked that the faker would know to leave the bottom tip of the R there. Dan.<br /><br />I have always referred to the Nodgrass work as being lasered off since it was first detected by my father. I truly do not know hoe George had these done. <br /><br />One thing is for sure, you can't tell once they are holdered, they need to be raw for you to see the dull spot. I appreciate you being willing to learn about the doctoring you are not familiar with, that is the sign of a good dude!

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p><i>What makes that ShaPPe fake? I am shocked that the faker would know to leave the bottom tip of the R there.</i><br /><br /><br /><br />I'm positive it's a fake...I made it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />True about always learning though. Plus one has to know when to rely on experts. As an example, I can tell if T206 has been doctored into an error, rebacked, etc. but if I needed to know if a certain back/front combo was possible I would call on Ted Z.<br /><br /><br />Kevin<br /> <br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Great pick-up Turner.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jantz</b><p>Again, nice card Turner. I hope all works out well for you. Let us know how this turns out.<br /><br />I was at the Columbus show today & got to look at Turner's card with a loupe. His scan doesn't look as good as the card appears in the loupe. I'm no expert & will never claim to be, but I would have definitely purchased the card if Turner hadn't. I also know what Turner paid for the card & he has nothing to lose. <br /><br />For Turner, I hope the card passes authentication & is given a grade. It will surely be a fond memory for him and his father years to come. <br /><br />Jantz

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Ted Z is the combination man!!! You made the ShaPPe. Ah now there is when a real problem occurs, a knowledgable person makes the fake and knows to leave the bottom post on. Hopefully, most of the people that know the cards to this extent like Kevin and most on this board, will continue to be honest. Well made judging by the scan Kevin. Will Global have this at the National? I would like to see it.<p><br /><br />If you would like to see a Nodgrass error, I am sure the original owner of this one would sell it to you for $9500. Because you must pop it out of the holder to see the doctoring.<br /><br />Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>All kidding aside Kevin, if I can get you a raw Nodgrass fake to examine, do you think you will be able to tell the method of doctoring? I think that would help to know exactly how they did it.<p><br /><br />Also, another excellent source for T206 back combinations is Art Martineau. Art and Doug Allen researched the subject in great detail and I believe either started or actually wrote a book on it.<br /><br />Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p><i>All kidding aside Kevin, if I can get you a raw Nodgrass fake to examine, do you think you will be able to tell the method of doctoring? I think that would help to know exactly how they did it.</i><br /><br /><br />Yes, should not be a problem. If done with any degree of skill, it should be difficult to tell. Difficult but usually not impossible.<br /><br />It's a good learning experience to look at others work. If there's a known history, I can get a better understanding of the doctors habits/skills. This makes it easier to recognize if seen again. So far I've only seen two (rumored) card doctors who's work was absolutely masterful and took a long time to detect. Without a doubt there others but these had a told history. <br /><br />You mentioned a dull spot, that would be a dead give-away. What's puzzling and disturbing is that at first glance any grader should catch that. I can somewhat understand them missing it...if it wasn't the main focal point of the card. That area should be examined in-depth. Oh well, who knows?<br /><br />I'm not to worried about others looking at these pics to copy them, as I mentioned each took "several hours" and many steps to complete. IMO this Toront home-made error is even better and kinda' freaks me out. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/toront_botttom.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Global will be at Nationals, just hope they remember to bring them. There are about 25 doctored cards in all, with a little bit of everything. Some were made to show what can be done, while others were made to show how a less than perfect job may look. I think visuals is the best way to educate.<br /><br />If you don't get a chance to see them or want more info, give Baker a call or email him. He enjoys talking about these. Apparently they have been displayed at the last couple shows. He said the Shappe and the T205 with a T206 back have been blowing everyone away.<br /><br /><br />Kevin<br /><br /><br /><br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Kevin, the Toront maker is the same person who did the Nodgrasses. George sold the Toront error at one time if I remember correctly. I remember pleading with Bob Lemeke profusely to not list the Toront as a legit error but he ignored me as many do.<p><br /><br />The graders are missing the dull spot because you can not see it when magnified and the only way to see it is to hold the card about a foot away and slightly tilt it under a normal light bulb only.<br /><br />3rd party graders really have no reason to do this as their magnification shows most things. Now do you see how they have missed this consistantly?<br /><br />Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p><i>"Kevin, the Toront maker is the same person who did the Nodgrasses."</i><br /><br /><br />Sorry Dan...I made the one above too! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The one you are thinking of is on the T206 Museum site. Mine (the one shown) is with the Global display.<br /><br /><br /><i>"the only way to see it is to hold the card about a foot away and slightly tilt it under a normal light bulb only"</i><br /><br /><br />That's the way to inspect a card (except with a halogen light) and is the standard for all 3rd party graders, which is why I'm saying it should have been a no-brainer for any grader. Dull spots or areas also show up for such things as recolored, reglossed or in some cases removed stains, to name a few. <br /><br />I really don't understand how these were missed consistantly or by the Mastro in-house expert(s).<br /><br /><br />Kevin<br /><br /><br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I had a tour of SGC and they weren't using normal light bulbs. I think they had round lights with magnifying glasses in the middle. So you are telling me that normal operating procedure is to hold the card a foot away and tilt it? That is very interesting indeed, in that case, I must agree with you then, I have no idea how the graders missed it.<br /><br />The Mastro team didn't have the luxery of the card being raw so no way to see the dull spot but the full S missing and the wrong back, I bet they knew better. Hence the disclaimer at the bottom of the auction listing. Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Every collector should know how to inspect a card. Here is something I wrote for Net54:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Index/85775" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Index/85775</a><br /><br />It's also on my website.<br /><br />Enjoy!<br /><br />Kevin<br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>The card graded an SGC 40. Thanks for the help from everyone.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>Awesome. Congrats.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>is it labeled as the Murr'y variation?

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>congratulations Turner!

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>Thanks guys. <br /><br />Labeled as the Murr'y variation.<br /><br />I think the $40 purchase price was well worth it! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>cool! congrats...

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Very cool congrats, at this point I wouldn't take less than $45.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Bravo zulu!!<br /><br />(There actually is one other guy on this board who knows what I just said)

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>I think you're right. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />I am very happy, but not quite sure what my next step will be with the card. <br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Make that 2 Steve...

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p>Dan that may have been how things once were but I can assure you we use regular 100 watt light bulbs in an otherwise completely dark room. Kevin is correct that this is the best environment for detecting alterations as well as minor surface creases or wrinkles. The lack of outside light cuts down on the glare that sometimes hides these imperfections. The glare, hiding wrinkles etc. is often the source of the problems when people think they have an 8 and get a 4.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>Turner,<br />Congrats on that great pickup!<br /><br />How about: <a href="http://www.b-lauctions.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.b-lauctions.com/</a><br /><br />Cut off date is May 9th!<br /><br />sdbh<br /><br />Steve - #3

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p> <br />SGC 10 sold on ebay March, 2007 for $2,113.00 <br /><br />SGC 50 sold at REA May, 2007 for $8,812.50 <br /><br />WELL DONE!!!!!<br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Turner,<br /><br />Congrats. You can always sell it -- I'd hold it for awhile and be certain on how to proceed.<br /><br />Well done.<br /><br />Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Awesome, simply awesome<br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>congrats turner...great pickup! you should sell it and buy some oil!<br /><br />pete in mn

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Glyn, it has been a few years since I toured. I remember Scott and the other grader were set up right next to each other and each had a light with a huge glass in the middle. It actually was a very impressive set up! I thoroughly enjoyed the tour, thanks to SGC. <br /><br />I am shocked that the graders would know to hold the Nodgrass cards a foot from themselves and slightly tilt them.<br /><br />But hey, I was impressed with the facility so I will be impressed with this as well.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Just want to update these a bit....<br /><br />SGC 10 sold on ebay March, 2007 for $2,113.00 <br /><br />SGC 50 sold at REA May, 2007 for $8,812.50 <br /><br />SGC 40 sold to Wonka May, 2008 for $45 <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p>Dan I was referring to the lighting nothing else I know we look a lot closer then a foot at every card let alone this variation. Though the show set up is slightly different then at the office.<br />Thanks <br /> Glyn

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jantz</b><p>Congratulations Turner. I'm happy for you. <br /><br />To me, this is what the hobby is all about. Surely someone out there would want to do an article about this. I think it would make for an interesting story.<br /><br /><br />Jantz

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>oh ok Glyn, that is my point. The ONLY way to see the dull spot on the bad Nodgrass cards is to hold them a foot away and tilt them. Up close and magnified they look perfect! Hence why many have slipped through the grading companies. Thanks for your responses Glyn, Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Also yes! I agree, this is a very significant find and maybe Lyman of Old Cardboard would be interested in doing an article or blurb on it. Very cool stuff here! Keep it raw! Money is over rated, smile.