My PSA Experiment

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Posted By: <b>Matt R</b><p>I'm only going to post facts and people can take it anyway they want. In my final submission to PSA, I sent in 6 cards. As an experiment, I trimmed an entire edge off of three of the cards. I just got the results back. Two of the trimmed cards are slabbed, including one that received an 8. They did identify one card that was trimmed. I cut it crooked which sort of gave it away. I'm not exactly a pro at doing this either. These were my first cards that I ever attempted to trim. I will not renew my PSA membership. I'm also not going to post anything else in this thread.<br /><br />This is my only response I will give because I don't want to get involved in more chat room drama. This post is completely true. I'm sorry if this disturbs you but PSA does not deliver what they promise. I will post scans when I get the cards back.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>My PSA Experiment:<br /><br />Edit as not relevant to discussion.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Scummy ebay seller, negligent grading companies, cheating auction houses...<br />I dream that we could have one day a month on this board where no threads about crap in our hobby are started. Not because the threads aren't warranted - this stuff makes me sick and should be brought to light; but rather, just to take a break from all the negativity.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Still bashing PSA Plifter?<br /><br />I too would like for just one time open a thread that you created and not hear this.<br /><br />I'd ask for some scans, and some paperwork but you said you won't add anything to this thread<br />like PROOF.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Steve - I think you've confused me with the OP - I don't recall bashing PSA.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Count me in the non-believers of this story here as well.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Matt the OP is also named Matt.<br /><br />Ill edit my post and use his screen name.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>This really doesn't make sense Matt. You start up a thread about being a novice trimmer and that you get 2 out of 3 by PSA, then tell us your not going to add anything else to this thread? Then what is the reason for the post? To stir something up here where maybe two other folks get into an arguement? IMO if your gonna go with the stance of "i'm not posting in this thread again, in your INITIAL post, then there is no need for this thread to even be here.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>i vote yes to a change of board where there's an "ignore poster" option.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>This is my only response I will give because I don't want to get involved in more chat room drama.<br /><br /><br /><br />lol sure.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Quan, I wasn't sure what the feeling was that I was experiencing lately here but it almost seems...like Chao(s). Have you felt it?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>it is getting a little tiring....does anyone have any good news? Just a shred....that's all I want.....just one teeny tiny shred....I'm easy..

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, at 1230 Eastern Time I suspect you might have some good news.

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Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>Jeff, I was just thinking the same thing. Makes you almost long for the kid trying to figure out what a PSA 9 Old Judge set would be worth.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>it is getting a little tiring....does anyone have any good news? Just a shred....that's all I want.....just one teeny tiny shred....I'm easy..<br /><br /><br />lol leon <br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>But the whales are circling.....I have a feeling I am going to get slammed but we'll see....'75 minis here I come....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Is it just the one that you cherish?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Can we please stay on topic here?<br /><br />Lmao<br /><br />Leon hope you win your item.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You know we have our ways.....<br />and I don't think it's anything you would think, Jeff....<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>What WOULD a PSA 9 Old Judge set be worth?<br /><br />And while we're on the subject, did Shoeless Joe ever play without shoes? How did he not get spiked?<br /><br />Laughing out loud.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>He used "Spike Be Gone"

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Al, that is scary accurate.<br /><br />Seriously. Chills up my spine.<br /><br />Laughing out loud.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Lot of traffic for Wednesday night. What is everybody doing at their computers? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>That's a real quote, I believe. One of the very first, if I'm not mistaken.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Just hangin' out....not much really.........deciding if I will keep the beautiful, well centered Green Cobby I just won...that has to be one of the least well centered cards, in general .....and I have a feeling you will get what you want too..

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Wow, Leon, you've lost your mind. A green Cobb? The world is suddenly very strange to me. <br /><br />PS -- that is a beauty.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>That is a pretty green Cobb.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Al, will you be walking around tomorrow with your Mastro winnings in your back pocket?

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> To believe this story I would need proof i.e scans of the cards before and after trimming, plus scans of the two cards that got slabbed and a scan of the one that came back EVID OF TRIM.<br /> We're supposed to believe a claim like this from a person who cann't even open a well wrapped group of cards without damaging them?

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Posted By: <b>Tim Kinserlow</b><p>Just more proof as to why Matt(plifter) was booted from other card sites.<br /><br />This axe to grind with PSA is getting silly. <br /><br />Can you provide us with some before and after scans of the cards, and the paper work from PSA?<br /><br />If you can provide everything, and it checks out, I will listen. You better hope you can provide the goods, because if not, you have finished ruining what little bit of reputation you had left.<br /><br />EDIT: spelling

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Posted By: <b>Bilko G</b><p> with some of the other posters. Show us proof!!! Really Matt, what was the purpose of this thread? Just to take a "sucker punch" at PSA? Then posting that you are not gonna reply again to this thread? I think you said that to "cover your tracks", sort to speak. You knew that peoples would be asking for proof of this (Before/after pics Etc.), but since "you are not replying again to this thread", you do not have to provide this or any proof now. If you really wanted to make a "stand" against PSA, you should have made a youtube video of this whole "last submission to PSA". You could have video taped yourself trimming these cards, packaging them up, mailing them to psa, receiving the package back from psa, showing the cards slabbed, Etc. BTW, what cards did you end up trimming? Oh yeah, forgot your're not responding to YOUR thread ....(Rolls Eyes). Anyone else miss Peter? LOL!!!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>How about just providing the submission and order number? <br /><br />People show subs all the time.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Not commenting on its application in this particular instance, but, in general, I second the request for the "ignore posts by user" feature.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't think we have an "ignore posts" feature. What we do have is a moderator that doesn't like the way this crap is going. From here on out Matt-Plifter will not be allowed to talk about PSA, SGC, or any grading company, unless the post has scans of the flips, and cards, with the issues at hand.....NO MORE.....I will do us all a favor and take care of it if this "request" is ignored. Now back to cards and the hobby....best regards

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>I like applesauce<br /><br />laughing out loudly

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Posted By: <b>David</b><p>I believe the OP 100% and I'm not shocked either. Just recently I know of somebody who trimmed 7 cards just to see if they would make it through PSA and every single one did.<br /><br />And to back it up I provide a link to the CU boards where the person who ran this little test provided pictures and the whole nine yards. <br /><br />The 15th post down has all the pictures.<br /><a href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=645091&STARTPAGE=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=645091&STARTPAGE=1</a><br />

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but all I see is a picture of seven slabbed cards with a drill bit going through them. I see nothing that would definitively suggest that any of those cards were trimmed.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>I don't have a rooster in this fight, but the argument there was that, in theory, someone wouldn't drill through slabbed 10s for no good reason. I don't really know how trimming could be proven conclusively on the board since anyone can claim the cards were switched or what have you.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>one of the cards was a 1990 O-Pee-Chee Larry Walker cad graded a PSA MINT 9. The card is not worth the grading fees, flat out. Frankly, I send in a lot of cards to PSA that come back at 8s or other grades that ultimately make it not worth the grading fee, nor worth the time and hassle to sell on Ebay. Instead of using cardboard for packaging cards I ship through the mail, I stick any graded cards I sell between two "PSA throw away" cards instead. That's the same as giving them away or drilling a hole through them. At many big shows, some of these big dealers have PSA $1 bins, where it is PSA-graded cards of Hall of Famers or stars, usually modern crap, that received 8s or 9s. I'm sorry -- the drill in and of itself proves very little to me. One of my favourite players and collections is my Mike Schmidt collection -- and I feel confident in saying that &gt;50% of the PSA 10s I have of Schmidt probably have a true market value of $5 - $10.<br /><br />&lt;Shrug&gt;

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Marc - I agree that the argument is not strong; I was just restating what it was. <br />The better question is, your objection infers that there would be a series of photos that you would accept as proof; I'm curios what those are. I'm not sure I can think of any photos that would conclusively prove what is being claimed here. You'd always be concerned the cards were switched.

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Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Seriously? Not enough proof? So you think the guy is just making the whole story up huh? Well he is one of cu's "respected board members who posts daily and uses PSA only so the results were not shown with bad intentions they were shown so people would open their eyes.<br /><br />I know another person who sent in 14 PSA graded cards for crossover to BVG recently and 7 came back restored due to being trimmed. I also have cert #'s and all that stuff as well.<br /><br />Like I said I believe it 100%. If you don't that's fine as well.

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Posted By: <b>Brad L.</b><p>I really can't believe, that with all the sob stories you've spilled out here about how the people at the CU boards bashed you, that you come on this board and post completely irrelevant, probably false, and in no way contributive (is that a word?), posts on this board. How is someone going to feel sorry for you (which seems to be your goal in 90% of your posts) if you continue to post garbage? And say your story is true, do you think that there's never been a trimmed card slabbed by any other TPG company? Most people would pick out the positive aspects of things (since there is always negative), but you seem hell bent to bring down PSA and PSA only. You said you had a good experience with Gem grading company, why don't you go with them? I could pick out and purposely try all my life to find or create a negative about a company, what does that get me? What did this experiment get you? Because they wouldn't have slabbed your trimmed card if YOU DIDN'T TRIM IT.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>"what does that get me? What did this experiment get you?"<br /><br />I'm not sure all our actions have to be selfish, but, if in your world they do, I would suggest that it might be better for you, (making an assumption here) as a collector of slabbed vintage baseball cards, if the grading companies were consistent in their grades and did not give the same card completely disparate grades. Otherwise much of the purpose of slabbing cards is undermined. The point in bringing something like this to light would be to encourage the grading company to improve its standards.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>although I didn't specifically create evidence of it (as I was not trying to expose PSA to a large audience), when I trimmed some cards as an experiment and got them back from PSA (about 25% graded), the following would be suggestive proof:<br /><br />A) Before scans of the cards<br />B) "After" scans of the cards -- along with the pictures/scans of the remove portion<br />C) Scan of the card in a PSA holder.<br /><br />Specifically with vintage cards -- it is much easier, in my mind, to track specific cards. Card attributes, such as print dots, centering, color, etc. make themselves much easier to say more definitively that a certain card is the same one.<br /><br />With modern cards -- this is often less possible, except for serially numbered cards, like the Tom Brady card below, which was trimmed and BGS clearly encapsulated. <br /><br />cards.<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1209657570.JPG"> <br /><br />Note -- I am not being a PSA apologist here -- they have and sometimes do grade altered cards. I'm just not convinced in this particular case you've highlighted.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>I agree.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>I have over 8,400 posts over at CU and have been a member there for greater than 8 years (e.g. since Feb '01 in the new format and for at least a year or two in the older format). Since we're comparing "mutual respect" and all that jazz -- does my skepticism automatically have no merit?<br /><br />M

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Posted By: <b>Brad L.</b><p>"what does that get me? What did this experiment get you?"<br /><br />"I'm not sure all our actions have to be selfish, but, if in your world they do"<br /><br />Of course you completely ignored what that statement actually meant. My point was, if I am always trying to find negatives, what benefit is that to me? I look for the good in all aspects of this hobby, but try to be aware of the negatives as to not get burned. I understand your concept of a "revolution" to point out flaws in the grading companies in order to "make a change." What I don't understand is why you felt the need to create a problem to complain about a problem.

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Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Yes I'm aware of the BGS card above I have seen that before. Looks as bad as all these counterfeit cards sitting in these PSA slabs below. There all missing the trademark logos you cn spot these fake a mile away. But I guess PSA missed it..<br /><br />Real notice the trademark logos<br /><img src="http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/deez283/DSCF7514-1.jpg"><br /><br />Now all fakes. If they can't spot a counterfeits what should leave me to beleive they will be good at catching trimmed or altered cards?<br /><img src="http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/deez283/img456.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/deez283/scan0001.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/deez283/b040_1.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/deez283/58d2_1_sbl.jpg"><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I am a believer in this story.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>All that mentioned that they do not believe this story, did you happen to read the Nodgrass post? Why is it that PSA can slab a doctored Nodgrass card with a back that it can't exist on but can't ever miss a trimmed card and slab it? Or maybe Matt's cards are just so special that they deserve to be in holders even though they are trimmed like the Wagner? thanks for your thoughts, Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Brad L.</b><p>Dan, <br /><br />I don't think anyone ever said that PSA hasn't (or will never again) slab a trimmed card. What everyone is saying, is that they are sick of the OP's constant bashing of PSA and PSA only. And I guess if I were to make a claim like this, I certainly would have proof of it. It's pretty easy to grab a copy of a sub from the PSA site with cert#'s.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>We already know that trimmed cards and cut cards reside in every company's holders. SGC bought back a trimmed T206 Waddell from me last summer. But let's be fair here: PSA SGC and Beckett are not PRO CSA or GAI. By and large they do a decent job. In other words "ho hum." <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I agree with Brad and Adam. I must have misread a few posts above. It seemed some posters didn't think it was possible. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />Sorry to say that trimmed cards get through all the time, with every grading company. Altered cards of every type also get by. There are websites devoted to this. I think what you are trying to do is prove this point but if offers no educational benefit or shocking news. Modern cards are even easier at that. <br /><br />Collectors care about their cards and want to protect their investments. If you can show them, even in a subtle way, what they need do look for or provide examples with some possible reasoning then they will liste...sometimes. <br /><br />Collectors of all levels may not want to hear or see what has or can be done to cards, flips or holders but in the end most are thankful that it may have prevented them from making future mistakes. Again, it should have some educational value.<br /><br />This forum is made up of some of the world's top collectors and experts, each with their own specialty or niche. Many are far past looking at a trimmed card in a holder...unless it's exceptional work or of high value.<br /><br />It may be safe to say that discussing the baiscs of a trimmed card just doesn't cut it.<br /><br /><br />Kevin<br /><br /><br /><br><br>------------------------------<br /><br /><a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">www.AlteredCards.com</a> - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Dan i too know that trimmed cards have gotten past PSA. My posts here were <br />regarding this specific example.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>I don't know why SGC said this was trimmed:<br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1933-Goudey-Baseball-160-Lou-Gehrig-Came-Back-Trimmed_W0QQitemZ370048059588" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1933-Goudey-Baseball-160-Lou-Gehrig-Came-Back-Trimmed_W0QQitemZ370048059588</a>

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Understandable Steve, I do not know this poster so you may have some background info that I am unaware of. Heck nothing is perfect, I read a few above posts as if stating that PSA could never slab a trimmed card. Hopefully we will get some scans tonight. Those shiny reprints that are slabbed are interesting. I can see that happening as well if they are looking at that stuff in bulk. Speed over accuracy makes money I would guess. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>edit: posted on wrong thread

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Posted By: <b>Tim Kinserlow</b><p>Plifter,<br /><br />Where is the PSA cert #'s, off the submission? Please provide us with the info, since you have made this damning allegation.<br /><br />There is no need to go back and forth anymore, just give us the info, and we can review the alleged evidence against PSA.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I am with Tim above.