What Do You Do When A Card Has Been Lost In The Mail? [Archive]

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03-28-2008, 10:56 AM

Posted By: Addie_JossI sold a card to someone on the B/S/T forum several weeks ago and it appears as though the card has been lost or delivered to the wrong address or misplaced by someone in their household or complex. I'm speculating but it should have certainly arrived by now and hasn't. I saved the shipping receipt to show that I did indeed send the card, I always save my shipping receipts from transactions. The buyer never asked that I purchase insurance for the card or asked for delivery confirmation, though I feel bad I didn't ask him if he wanted it. This has never happened to me before and I'm not sure what the proper thing to do is. On the one hand I feel bad that the card has potentially been lost, but on the other I don't really want to refund the purchase because then I'm out of a card and the money I sold it for. What is the proper thing to do? Is it just something that happens from time to time and the buyer takes the loss?

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03-28-2008, 10:58 AM

Posted By: Dave FIs the other party invovled a well known member here? How much was the transaction for?

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03-28-2008, 10:58 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSince the package wasn't insured, did you establish before you sent it who would be bearing the risk?

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03-28-2008, 11:00 AM

Posted By: MattAddie - is what you have a receipt that you paid for postage or proof that the item was actually shipped?

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03-28-2008, 11:00 AM

Posted By: Addie_JossIt was for 150 dollars.

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03-28-2008, 11:01 AM

Posted By: Addie_JossIts a shipping receipt which is proof of the shipment of the package, not a postage receipt.

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03-28-2008, 11:02 AM

Posted By: MattAddie - how do you get a "shipping receipt"? When I mail something with USPS (without registered mail, insurance or delivery confirmation) all I get is a receipt I paid for the postage. Is that a special service you can request for a fee?

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03-28-2008, 11:05 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWhat day was it shipped? Some of my packages take 10 days to 2 weeks but they get to their destination.

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03-28-2008, 11:14 AM

Posted By: Mark TI shipped at Sporting life wrapper to Scott B. on Nov. 15 2007...he got it around Jan 17 2008. I had a delivery confirmation though and was able to track it. Edited to say: i would refund the $ and have an agreement that if it shows up, you get the $150 back. that seems fair.

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03-28-2008, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Anthony N.In my opinion it's the buyers responsibility to get payment to the seller, and the sellers responsibility to get the merchandise to the buyer. I always include insurance (and delivery confirmation/signature confirmation if paid via paypal, per their rules) as part of the shipping cost. It's there to protect me, but is part of the transaction and is a cost covered by the buyer. When shipping is included in the price/offer I still always include insurance. If you're doing a lot of selling you might consider using collect insure to cover it. Sorry this has happened to you.

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03-28-2008, 11:19 AM

Posted By: Dave FI would say for $150 the seller should take the hit. Unless in your for sale post you specifically said this price doesn't include insurance, etc. If you put in there $150 for this card then I'd expect I'm going to get that card for $150..and if I don't i'm going to expect you'll compensate me for that. If you didn't bother with insurance or even spend 60 cents on a delivery confirmation...how can you blame someone at the other party's house for possibly taking it? The insurance or at least a d.c. is there to protect you as well as a buyer. It always helps to spend an extra $1.65 and have $100 insurance thown on it...you woudln't believe how more likely your package would arrive.

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03-28-2008, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldThis recently happened to me on an item. I purchased something ($50) and it was sent without insurance and we had no agreement as to insurance. I know the seller is honest. We agreed to split the difference. I was refunded $25.00. I felt it fair becuase I never asked for insurance even though the seller never asked me if I wanted it. Certainly when you are in the hobby as long as we all are, I know that insurance exists and don't feel like it is always the sellers job to ask me if I want it. I could easily have spoken up and said I am giving you an extra $1.50 to insure this.

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03-28-2008, 11:23 AM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusOn a related note, I am still waiting for a package sent to me registered mail 11 days ago. How long can registered mail take (it was sent from the midwest to the northeast)?

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03-28-2008, 11:25 AM

Posted By: Dave FRegistered mail and take forever...but is pretty much the safest way to ship something...so I wouldn't worry at all about it...just hope it arrives before Memorial Day!

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03-28-2008, 11:25 AM

Posted By: Addie_JossI see what you guys are saying but I don't really want to refund the purchase. If the buyer wanted insurance he could have asked and I would have gladly purchased it. I have a receipt that says the postage paid and the destination of the package, so it was sent. Its easy to say just give him the money but what about me and my loss? I'm out a card and the money I got for it which I've already spent. I wouldn't say I'm at any more fault for the loss than the buyer seeing as neither of us are responsible for packages arriving or not arriving. The deal was made for 150 total with shipping included but not insurance and insurance or delivery confirmation were never discussed. If it had been I would have gladly opted for whatever the buyer wanted but they never brought it up. If it were e-Bay I don't think I would be liable because insurance and delivery confirmation is either stated in the description as being included or up to the buyer to request it.

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03-28-2008, 11:28 AM

Posted By: MattYou should probably split the loss then. And you've learned an expensive lesson - always ship with at least delivery confirmation.

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03-28-2008, 11:30 AM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldAddie, Actually, with eBay, the seller is responsible - not the buyer. Any claim would always be against the seller since as was pointed out, it is the seller's responsibility to get the item to the purchaser. Now, if the seller offers insurance and it is declined, the burden shifts to the buyer. In my example above where I decided to split it with the seller, it was more of a reputation thing. I've done business in the past with the seller, will in the future - we both decided on an amicable solution and $25.00 wasn't a whole heck of a lot of money.

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03-28-2008, 11:31 AM

Posted By: Bobby BinderAddie, It is on you to see if the buyer wants insurance and as far as a delivery confirmation that to is on you as well. If you want some creditability with this board and the B/S/T section of this site then you need to refund the full $150. The backlash by not doing so will end up costing you a lot more then a measly $150.00

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03-28-2008, 11:32 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittWhat does the buyer want. I NEVER send something that valuable without insurance. Would have been another $3 or so. Just to be sure. Know that doesn't help you now though.....Don't think Delivery Confirmation does ANYTHING for you either other than tell you it got there or it didn't. If it's lost, since they don't scan anywhere other than at delivery, you got nothing. 60 cents not well spent. Insurance is better if you ask me..........more expensive but it is what it is........insurance.

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03-28-2008, 11:32 AM

Posted By: Addie_JossWell there's another side to this. The name of the buyer is not the name of the person I shipped to. I shipped to the address associated with the paypal payment, but it is a different person than the guy contacting me about the card. I am thinking perhaps it arrived to the paypal address but not the buyer's personal address? That could perhaps explain why he hasn't received t. I contacted the buyer a few minutes ago to see if that is the case.

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03-28-2008, 11:34 AM

Posted By: MattTom - with delivery confirmation, if it shows delivered, I would have an easier time telling the buyer that it got to him and therefore I'm off the hook. I agree it's not as good as insurance/signature confirmation however.

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03-28-2008, 11:35 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanseller should be responsible. i usually take a loss on shipping/insurance because this isn't a business to me...it's a hobby...and I'd rather lose $5 on that end than the whole kit and ka-boodle if it never arrives. pete in mn

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03-28-2008, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Addie_JossFor almost every transaction I've ever made on eBay or otherwise as a buyer it was I who asked for insurance or delivery confirmation. I'd be willing to split the loss but I'm not going to refund the whole purchase because then what am I supposed to do? To me, the insurance is a fault we both made and therefore should both shoulder, I don't see any sense in me bearing the full brunt of it when both of us are as guilty as the other.

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03-28-2008, 11:43 AM

Posted By: dennisif you sold a $150.00 card and shipped it with no delivery confirmation or insurance i think you are at fault. imagine if you bought on line from ANY RETAIL STORE(wal mart/sears,ETC) and never recieved what you paid for. you call them and they say well we shipped it,too bad. it's their/your responsibility to get the item to the buyer and insurance or at least delivery confirmation should always be in the price when sold to insure safe arrival.

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03-28-2008, 11:45 AM

Posted By: PhilI think it is the Seller's responsibility. Look at it this way, if you purchased something from a major on-line retailer (Best Buy or something) and paid for it, but never received the item, wouldn't you expect Best Buy to ship you another item? I'm not comparing you to a big business, but it should be the seller's responsibility. As someone else stated, to take a $150 hit will go an awful lot further for your reputation than anything you could have purchased for that $150.

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03-28-2008, 11:46 AM

Posted By: Addie_JossI see, I will ask the buyer if he will be happy with a 75 dollar split for the cost. Its not as though I'm just saying "too bad I shipped it take my word for it" I do have proof that I sent it. I don't think he's a dishonest guy and would just claim that he never received it so a split in cost seems fair to me. I will wait till he checks with the address and person the package was actually shipped to first though.

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03-28-2008, 11:47 AM

Posted By: leonCorey- Registered mail is safest. I bet they don't lose more than 1 in a million of those packages...I am sure you are fine. You will win the Powerball lottery before you will have a registered package lost. On this transaction, imo, if nothing was said then it's up to each party to get their respective part of the deal to the other....If I do a deal and nothing is spoken about then it's on me to get my part of the deal to the other person. Just my opinion and the way I do business. This could be a relatively cheap learning lesson. regards ps...splitting the loss can take some pain out of it but I still don't believe the buyer had any duty if not spoken about beforehand.

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03-28-2008, 11:47 AM

Posted By: PhilWhy should the buyer lose $75......he did nothing wrong and didn't receive his item?

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03-28-2008, 11:51 AM

Posted By: T206Collectora) purchase insurance for cards valued at $50 or more (it takes a few minutes and costs a few dollars, but nothing to lose sleep over -- like losing $150); b) have my personal collectibles insurance with CIA that would cover losses like this. Haven't had to use it. I once received a sheet of T206 cards -- they had been glued together on a sheet -- and it arrived ripped in one corner, destroying the Griffith and the Huggins that had been glued there. Fortunately seller had insurance, and the post office paid me for the loss in value as a result. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-28-2008, 11:56 AM

Posted By: Addie_Joss I didn't do anything wrong either and I'd be out a card and money. To me, both of us are at fault for not asking the other to insure or if they wanted insurance. You guys are of the similar opinion its my fault and thats fine and valid points have been made, but I'm not a businessman I'm just a kid who sold a card to someone. I put the card in the mail and then never saw it again. So if you want it to come down to who is at "fault" neither of us are and neither of us "did anything wrong". The situation needs to be rectified no doubt but I see an equal solution as the best one.

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03-28-2008, 11:58 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAddie- I sell baseball cards for a living and every package I send out is insured or registered. I think you should either request a little extra in postage from the buyer, or just pay the insurance yourself. It's not a good idea to send valuable merchandise uninsured.

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03-28-2008, 12:09 PM

Posted By: Dave FAddie- The fact that your "just a kid" as you say means nothing. I'm assuming your 18? The BST is supposed to be a responsible place for transactions to take place...and its built on trust. If your not trustworthy and won't stand up for your items being delivered than that will reflect any future sales you have on this board. The fact is you could have gotten $100 of insurance for a $1.65. Your still making out a whole lot better than the fees you saved not putting the item up on ebay. "just a kid" doesn't hold water.

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03-28-2008, 12:10 PM

Posted By: Martin NealI just recently had this happen to me. I sold PSA 4 t206 Chance to a board member in San Fran. After a couple of weeks he informed me that he had not received the card. Not to worry, as I always buy insurance on cards worth over $75.00 or so. After finding the USPS receipt, I discovered that all I had done was get a delivery confirmation for this package. The buyer was more than gracious and I sent him the tracking number for the item. Meanwhile, I approached the problem at the Post Office only to learn that the most I could hope to expect was for the package being "discovered" at the regional office for lost mail in Atlanta. Finally after a couple of more weeks, I refunded the full amount to the purchaser as I felt it was my responsibility to insure the package arrived to him safely. If you do not request the buyer to pay extra for the insurance, I think the onus is on the seller to provide it. A week or so later, the package arrived in San Fran and the purchaser sent me another payment. That would have been the first package that I had ever lost. Addie, You aren't out the card and the money, just the card, the money was the purchasers.

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03-28-2008, 12:10 PM

Posted By: Dave FAnd if i'm the buyer in this situation and the seller claims someone at my house may have took the card....well, I'd be on the border of irate.

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03-28-2008, 12:11 PM

Posted By: Mark Ta card from Barry off Ebay, i did see he charged me $5.00 for shipping but that included insurance. Thats fine with me because the total for shipping and insurance will probably be more. Also, its a card i would hope to arrive safely. My idea for every B/S/T would be charge a buyer for insurance and if he/she complains then save the email, ship the card without insurance and you are covered.

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03-28-2008, 12:15 PM

Posted By: Addie_JossDave F you have an axe to grind. I didn't claim someone took it, I don't know where he lives. If he lives in an apartment complex it could be that someone else living in the complex received the package unknowingly or that someone picked up the wrong mail. Don't be so assuming or quick to judge. It's clear something is bothering you today but don't take it out on me.

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03-28-2008, 12:17 PM

Posted By: barrysloateMark- It came to $7.87 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But I am happy to pay the difference because I can't deal with the aggravation of losing a valuable package and not having insurance. I will say however that last year I sent a $60 package that was lost in the mail. It was fully insured and I put in a claim. About a month into the process I just sent the $60 to the buyer so he would not have to wait any longer. In the end it took me about three months to get reimbursed. That included the people at the post office filling out their part wrong, and the process had to be started over from scratch. The aggravation and time wasted was substantial.

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03-28-2008, 12:18 PM

Posted By: Joe D.IMO - It is completely the responsibility of the seller to get the item to the buyer. If it is lost - - and not insured - - it is the sellers loss / not the buyers. ALWAYS SHIP WITH INSURANCE - or take on that risk yourself.

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03-28-2008, 12:19 PM

Posted By: MattAddie - this message board isn't like others - when you disagree with someone please don't start calling them names.

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03-28-2008, 12:28 PM

Posted By: Dave FAddie...nope, no axe to grind. I don't like the fact however because your "just a kid" it makes this all ok. And as you stated.... "I sold a card to someone on the B/S/T forum several weeks ago and it appears as though the card has been lost or delivered to the wrong address or misplaced by someone in their household or complex." Fact remains...if your telling me someone at my house misplaced, lost, stole, etc a card shipped to my house then yes I'm going to get irate...thats basically going with the excuse that someone at the buyer's house is a moron.

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03-28-2008, 12:28 PM

Posted By: Zinnrefund the $150.00. Period.

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03-28-2008, 12:36 PM

Posted By: Addie_JossLike I said Dave, it was addressed to a different name than the person contacting me about the package, so yes, I think it is entirely within the realm of possibility that someone looking for a package addressed to one name would not notice a package addressed to someone else. Is that too much to handle? If someone were sending something to me but addressed it to my room mate or dad or whatever, would I notice it had arrived? Perhaps, but perhaps not. If my paypal address is different from my home address and in a different name, wouldn't I think the package got lost in the mail and maybe forget to perhaps check with the other address? I suggested possibilities and never accused anyone of anything, sit back and relax.

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03-28-2008, 12:38 PM

Posted By: quanthe bst has gotten very complicated over the years with all the extra rules and disclaimers etc...luckily it's still free <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> i'd just split the difference...of course when the buyer requests i send it to a different address because of paypal i'd be cautious and request they buy insurance just in case, seems a bit messy.

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03-28-2008, 12:41 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI agree with Quan and others. Once you were requested to send the package to a different name, I would have treated myself to some insurance. Things can just get complicated.

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03-28-2008, 12:49 PM

Posted By: RobWhen I sell something on the B/S/T for under $75 to someone I recognize or has a good reputation, I don't put insurance on it. If they never get it, I give full refund. I figure it evens out between the number of packages that get lost and the money I'd spend on insurance. And I hate wasting time/energy trying to make claims w/the PO. If the sale is over $75-100 or I don't really know the buyer, then I put insurance on it. I once bought a $50 card on ebay and didn't get it. The seller gave me a full refund, so I gave him 1/2 of it back. I trusted that he shipped it and just didn't think he should take the full loss. Maybe the buyer in this case will feel bad for Addie_Joss, but unfortunately the burden is on you Addie, IMO. $150 is alot of money (at least to me) especially for a "young" person, but if you are gonna deal in big money then you have to understand the risks and protect yourself. Lesson learned. Rob <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-28-2008, 12:51 PM

Posted By: PhilI think you have learned a $150 lesson. It could have been much higher. You now will no longer ship without insurance and will save yourself $$ and aggravation down the road. I think you need to refund the money. The good will you will get from that is worth a heck of a lot more than $150. If you don't, people will be leary of doing business with you which you can't get back once you've lost it for any amount of money.

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03-28-2008, 12:52 PM

Posted By: Anthony N.Addie- hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's my understanding that any transaction paid via paypal MUST included delivery confirmation (or signature confirmation if over $200) or they will take the money back from you in the event of a dispute. And I believe that shipping to a different address or an unconfirmed address will cause a dispute to be settled against you as well, although I've heard there were some changes in that in the last week.

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03-28-2008, 12:55 PM

Posted By: Addie_JossIf delivery confirmation must be purchased why doesn't paypal expressly state so in the transaction? I saw no notice of such in the transaction details. Am I missing it?

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03-28-2008, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Dave FI asked from the start is this a recognizable board member...you didn't answer. There are board members I've dealt with that I would in fact send their cards elsewhere at their request...either they were in Canada and that just made it easier on me...or whatever. So before anybody starts spinning this that the buyer is partially to blame because he asked the package go to his dad, or a friend in the U.S. if it was a Canadian buyer or whatever...should probably find out if this other member is a recognizable person on this board. And if he isn't somebody you recognize, then it goes back again to why send a package somewhere you don't feel comfortable and not put an extra couple bucks towards insurance? You can say whatever you want about me Addie..bottom line is i've been on the receiving end of this...and it is YOUR responsiblity to get the card where its going. I have two packages going out today or tomorrow...one worth about $1000 and one worth about $2500....I'd rather spend the few bucks to insure the packages and not have to worry with splitting something 50/50 with a buyer when all he has to do to start is send you a payment...his end of the deal is complete. If not, then start putting in your for sale posts that prices aren't gauranteed to arrive!

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03-28-2008, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Joseph ShirleyI always pay insurance for an item I sell. I don't even ask the buyer. I think of it as a small price to pay, to avoid these difficult situations.

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03-28-2008, 01:05 PM

Posted By: leonIt is solely each parties responsibility to get their end of the deal to the other if nothing was mentioned. Period. Addie- if the buyer sent money and it got lost would you still feel he should get the card? The age of the members and addressees have little to do with the situation. I do tend to be more conservative when dealing with folks I don't know well.....

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03-28-2008, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Addie_Jossnm

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03-28-2008, 01:11 PM

Posted By: Dave FYour just as upset? You have $150 in your pocket. The buyer doesn't have a card. You don't feel you should compensate that...and your just as upset?

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03-28-2008, 01:13 PM

Posted By: Addie_JossDave I really don't understand what your deal is. I'm upset a person lost a card, yes. Is that too much for you? Maybe the money is the issue that is important to you, but not me. I don't like to see people lose out on something like this. Is that too much to handle as well? I don't want to lose the money either but I don't like the feeling of buying something and being excited about it and then not receiving it. That is a let down and a horrible feeling I don't like to see people I deal with go through.

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03-28-2008, 01:13 PM

Posted By: Jerry RuckerI just had a similar situation with an ebay sale where a buyer in Australia won a 650.00 robot from me but had it shipped to his wife in the states. About 2 weeks after I shipped the robot he emails me telling me they haven't recieved it yet. The sale had insurance but it's still worrisome when something that expensive is missing and collecting from the Post Office is a hassle. Luckily I had included a signature confimation and when I emailed him and showed him where she had signed for the Robot, they miraculously found it. I don't think they were trying to pull anything, I just don't think his wife cares as much about Robots as he does.

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03-28-2008, 01:16 PM

Posted By: CatIf I sell something, I feel that I am accountable for the package. The means by which I protect myself varies. I use a lot of instinct when I ship something. For all relatively small dollar items ($100 or less) I sell on EBay I charge $3 for shipping and OPTIONAL insurance. But just because insurance is optional, does not mean that I won't elect to put insurance on it anyway and eat the difference, especially with those buyers with relatively poor or limited feedback. EVERYTHING I send (unless it is highly insured or registered goes with delivery confirmation) has delivery confirmation. If it is a mid-range dollar item ($100-500), I normally charge $4 and OPTIONAL insurance. But, for the $4 I put SOME insurance on the package and delivery confirmation. The amount of insurance is based on my comfort with the buyer (could be $100 worth of insurance or full purchase price). If they buy insurance, of course, it is fully insured. My instinct has always been that insured packages are treated a little differently by the postal service than the non-insured. If it is a multi-thousand dollar item, I ship it registered and let people know that it may take awhile to get to their location. On Wednesday, I shipped $1,200 worth of cards to a friend/board member. We didn't talk about insurance. What did I do this time? I put $500 worth of insurance on the item. That magic number is based on: I can use a kiosk at my post office, which provides mostly all the same services as going to the counter, but will only accept insurance coverage up to $500. Since, I didn't feel like waiting in line, I used the kiosk and put $500 on it. BTW, those postal kiosks are great. Usually, no waiting. I can go to the post office at midnight and mail my items. If it wasn't for having that kiosk available, my EBay sells would change drastically. They also print out big labels with bar-coded ZIP codes and I believe this expedites shipping. I get a lot of e-mails regarding how quickly my packages arrive. Yesterday, I priority mailed $6,000 worth of cards to SGC. How much insurance? $1,200 Why? I didn't want to ship it registered (which is cheaper at that dollar amount) because I wanted it to get there quickly. I didn't feel the need to spend the full dollar for insurance since SGC is entirely trustworthy. Anything over $500 requires signature and that comforts me. Theft of that dollar amount, involving the postal service, is a Federal Felony and I have always thought that one would have to think long and hard before going that route. Most of this is simply instinct, but it has worked so far. No Problems!

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03-28-2008, 01:20 PM

Posted By: Randy TrierweilerAddie, you started this thread. YOU asked "What is the proper thing to do? Is it just something that happens from time to time and the buyer takes the loss?" Several members have given you their opinion that YOU asked for. You don't seem to care for their advice. I think people understand your feelings in this matter, but don't ask for advice, if you have a hard time with the results. Your attitude here is similar to the Mayo John Clarkson thread, when you basically wanted the card re-classified to a common. The majority of collectors disagreed with you then too. Good luck to you.

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03-28-2008, 01:22 PM

Posted By: Dave FAddie- Did you read this at the top of the BST page? "Posters assume all responsibility for their own transactions" According to you Addie, if I list a card on the BST for $500, then it shouldn't be a matter of someone being able to quickly email me saying "I'll take it", since listing the card at $500 they shouldn't assume I'm including insurance..instead they should have to jump through hoops to find out all the details. It should come down to who can email me the fastest asking about shipping method, insurance, and what kind of box your going to send the card in?

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03-28-2008, 01:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSGC is trustworthy, but that package could still get lost in the mail. I would have sent it registered even if it took a few extra days. There's all ways of doing it.

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03-28-2008, 01:26 PM

Posted By: Jim VBAddie, You need to grow up and stop pissing and whining "Why me?" Quit arguing with Dave when he is simply answering the question you asked. You seem to be missing an important point here. Did you get the buyers money? If yes, then he completed his end of the deal. Did he get the card (or more importantly, can you prove he got the card)? If no, then you have not completed your end of the deal. At the very least, the lesson here should be to always ship with Delivery Confirmation. For 65 or 75 cents you could have swung this whole argument to your side. If you had proof it was delivered, it would be a different story. Is the buyer a regular board member? That may have some bearing, but I'm afraid it's probably on you to fix this. You talk about the buyer not protecting himself with insurance. Wrong. The insurance protection is for YOU, not him. If you can pass that cost along to him... fine. If not, it's a business expense you must bear. Unfortunately for you, this problem will fall on you. If you refuse to refund the money, you'll have a hard time doing B/S/T deals going forward. I know I have already decided, after reading this thread, that it would take a lot to make me buy from you on the B/S/T. Your reluctance to do what is right, and what everyone is telling you is right, is very telling about your business sense.

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03-28-2008, 01:27 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim is correct. Insurance protects the seller. If the buyer sends the payment, he has no other responsibility.

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03-28-2008, 01:36 PM

Posted By: leonI agree with every single thing you said. However (don't you hate the "howevers"?) I think we should be a little bit more patient with a younger person (hi Addie) than crusty guys like ourselves. I am NOT saying anything changes fundamentally but we should have more patience. Yes, he's playing with mostly older guys and that's the way it goes but still.....I think Addie is a good guy and is still understanding and learning the ways of life and business. This really will be a learning lesson for him.......Lets take the high road here...... When I was 18-20 I was really an arse.....If I were on this board back then I would have had all enemies and no friends.....best regards PS....Addie- this one is going to be on you, my friend....

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03-28-2008, 01:41 PM

Posted By: CatBarry...there is no doubt I am probably more trusting than most. My experience is that when there is a problem with the postal service, there is often an explainable reason for that problem. I think people are often hesitant to admit mistakes...such as they addressed the package incorrectly. Think about this: How many bills that you mail with the pre-addressed envelopes fail to make it to there destination? Almost never...well it has never happened to me (I'm 45 and have a lot of bills <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ). How many times do we read on the board about a mailing issue where the seller obviously addressed the package themselves? Every other month or so. If it is not human error then it's some manner of theft, which is where having a signature at some level of insurance comes in to play. My point: care in addressing the package is a key and always write legibly when printing the return address. The postal service isn't perfect but they are pretty darn good.

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03-28-2008, 01:45 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI agree that the postal service gets it right virtually all of the time, even if the postal employees don't always work as hard as they should. But I don't like scrimping on postal insurance. I guess because this is my livelihood I try not to cut corners. I like to insure packages for their full value.

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03-28-2008, 01:45 PM

Posted By: Jim VBLeon, I agree, but that's why I waited 50+ posts into the thread. When I first read his initial post, I knew what the board was going to tell him. He doesn't seem to be getting it. Personally, as the father of two teenagers, I have found that the direct approach sometimes helps things sink in. (Not always.) Addie, No hard feelings intended. You have always seemed like a bright, enthusiastic guy. Into vintage cards at a much early age than most of us were. But please, if you ask for everyone's opinion, don't argue and attack when they give it. I hope this works out for you in the end. Edited to add: Leon, "Crusty"????? Who? Me?

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03-28-2008, 01:47 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI do a moderate amount of selling on the B/S/T boards and I always insure those transactions if it is more than an amount than I'm willing to pay for out of pocket if it gets lost. Usually less than $50 I won't insure, but anything over that I automatically insure it. On ebay I guess I take a different tact in that I offer insurance, but if the buyer doesn't take it then I'll usually get delivery confirmation to protect myself.

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03-28-2008, 01:54 PM

Posted By: leonYes, we are crusty <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ......we really need to meet some day as we are only a few miles from each other. You and Jeff P live even closer to each other as I think he's in Plano.....Maybe I will have another get together at my house soon? It was a little anti-climatic last time but fun. regards

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03-28-2008, 02:06 PM

Posted By: Brian McQueenNot much I can add to this discussion that everyone hasn't already touched on. I think Dave F., Jim and Leon are spot on with their suggestions though. A little bit about how I go about selling cards ....I always list cards with prices next to them and include a disclaimer somewhere in the post about "prices include shipping/insurance". Sort of clears that little bit of confusion up right away. However, if I didn't intend on including shipping/insurance with the price, I would recommend specifying that amount up front so that the buyer doesn't have any confusion. Similar to how it works on Ebay I suppose. I've never used Fed Ex or UPS to ship cards - always the USPS. I usually won't bother insuring anything under $100, however I'll only do that with someone I'm familiar with on the buyers end and of course under the assumption that if something did happen, I'd be fully responsible. That's sort of the risk you take for declining to insure your packages. Like other's have stated, you're fully responsible for making sure the buyer receives the cards in good order. That's all a part of holding up your end of the transaction. And since foul-play apparently isn't a consideration at this point, that burden falls on you, I'm afraid. Once the value starts getting into the $600-700 range, I start thinking about using Registered shipping (slower but even safer than standard insurance). Hope it works out but in the end, I think this one is on you and I'd recommend reimbursing the buyer. You'll soon find that your reputation on this board is worth WAY more than any $150 baseball card. Regards... Brian Edited to correct faulty spelling before Barry sees it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-28-2008, 02:45 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI once shipped a 1953 Topps that got lost in the mail and I refunded the buyer. About three months later the USPO returned the package, card fine but note saying the package was damaged by PO machinery. So it's possible for a long delayed card to eventually show up.

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03-28-2008, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Sean BHI agree with most here that it's you end of the deal to deliver the card. If you print a shipping label with PayPal you are required to purchase delivery confirmation; and I think there rules are any value package needs delivery confirmation and anything over $250 needs signature confirmation. I'm a little confused about the different shipping address situation, he asked you to ship it to a different address (work?) than was on PayPal? Did you ask him why? This sucks for both parties involved but it still could show up, Jeff and I had a little thing with the post office last year and one day it just showed up. sdbh

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03-28-2008, 03:08 PM

Posted By: Mark Ti believe its anything over $200 needs sig. thats what they tell me at post office.

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03-28-2008, 03:10 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanOne thing to add w/r/t Paypal: When you are using Paypal and asked to ship to either a different address or to a paypal account in a different name you need to refuse the shipment unless it goes to the paypal-verified address. Also, you MUST use delivery confirmation or other verifiable proof of delivery or you will lose any paypal dispute. Also, remember that just because you say "no insurance, no delivery guarantee" does not mean Paypal will rule your way; they key to proof of delivery not proof of insurance. In this case, based on what you said happened, specifically your not offering insurance to the buyer and your not using a verifiable form of delivery, I would say the right thing to do is to refund the money and hope that the the item turns up again, in which case the buyer would be expected to pay you for it. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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03-28-2008, 03:16 PM

Posted By: Sean BHHi Mark, You're right about anything insured for $200 will need a signature to be delivered by the post office, but PayPal requires a signature confirmation for anything $250 and over. sdbh

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03-28-2008, 03:20 PM

Posted By: Mark Tok Sean, i was reading too fast.

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03-28-2008, 03:21 PM

Posted By: Sean BHAll them pesky PayPal rules... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> sdbh

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03-28-2008, 06:20 PM

Posted By: JoannWow. I think I am missing something here. We have had this debate several times before and I don't remember it ever being so unanimous, or represented as being so clear. There have been very vigorous and healthy arguments for both sides, and although I think it often leans in favor of seller responsibility, I don't think it has been the bright line that is being tossed about today. Maybe it's because in those cases the seller was a well-known board member and some people wanted to defend? I don't know. I'm just a little surprised by the vehemence about it here. And Dave, you know we have no beef between us and that I usually agree with you, but I don't believe that there is anything at all presumed on the BST about what is or isn't implied in a stated price wrt to shipping cost and responsibility. I know some people assume it, but it is not any kind of policy or even overwhelming practice. So yes, people CAN jump in and say they want something immediately without haggling details first - they just have to be prepared to possibly pay something in shipping on top of the sale price or at least have a discussion about it. It happens, and there is no clear yes or no on any assumptions that BST prices are out-the-door prices. But Addie, I think you should probably make the refund. I'd be just sick about it if I were you, and this thread has me resolving to be more careful about getting insurance when I'm a seller - sometimes when I'm in a hurry I skip it. But I'd be pretty upset. A case can be made either way as to whether the risk should have been negotiated or not, and whose responsibility it was to initiate that discussion. But it would probably tilt toward a seller-responsible verdict. More important is the other point a few have brought up. The BST flies and dies by individual reputation, and even though $150 is a lot of money you will be worse off if you dig in, reputation wise. So I'd pay it. It's not like it's out-of-the-zone unfair for you to do so, and you will be better off for it when you continue to use the BST. Finally, here is one way to think about it. If the buyer had sent cash in the mail - something that anyone that got their hands on it could keep and use - and you never received it, would you feel like you should still ship the card? Probalby not. I still think there is gray area here, but the above analogy may help make some of the logic clearer. But like I said, I'd be just sick about it if I were you. But I'd refund it. Joann (And I will NOT get in too much of a hurry to skip insurance on more expensive items again!)

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03-28-2008, 06:46 PM

Posted By: Dave FI agree Joanne most the time we probably do fall along the same lines of thinking..but on this one we'll have to agree to disagree. I just really feel if the seller won't ship a card insured (or at least pick it up on his own tab if he chooses not to insure) than the seller should be obligated to mention before the transaction is paid sometthing about "hey, do you want this insured because that wasn't in my for sale price?" that would at least be common courtesey rather than just saying i'll take $300 for card x, and leaving it up to a buyer to have to then ask the question "hey is this going to be insured?" maybe its just in the people you get used to dealing with on here..but I can say I've never asked TBob or Leon or Mark Turner or anyone else what was included in the price I was paying for something...maybe I am the one in the dark here...

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03-28-2008, 07:03 PM

Posted By: leonI see some good points being made. I still stand by the mantra "if nothing is discussed each party is responsible for getting their end of the deal to the other person". There are no set rules and there won't be any on the BST, except caveat emptor:) For me...when I sell something on the BST I will put a price up and if someone says I will take it then I usually just throw in the guaranteed delivery. Whomever says that the seller really SHOULD make the shipping/insurance cost (or no cost) clear in the initial offering is correct. I can't say I always do that though. For the amount of transactions that go on over there, I have to get involved in extremely few. One every few months, maybe. It's really a good place overall...and even better as it's free and somewhat overseen.....regards

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03-28-2008, 07:08 PM

Posted By: JoannDave, My experience on the BST has probably been about 80/20 in that sometimes there is discussion about shipping costs, responsibilty, etc. but most of the time not. But it is not a slam dunk never, by any means. I def understand that you believe it is on the seller and that is perfectly fine - I think there are very good arguments for that. But I read some of your earlier posts more as saying that that's how it is on the BST, a more definitive statement. I disagreed more with the extent of the comments, or the certainty, not so much with the philosophical basis for them. I probably lean toward seller responsiblity myself, but think it's not clear in all cases - that there are times when it may be more of a shared responsibility. Certainly a buyer that provides a ship-to address that has semi-public access by roomates or other residents might be one of these cases. It may be fair to say that Addie was taking on the normal risk of lost in the mail, damaged, whatever, that is inherent in any shipping of anything. But I think it might just be a bit unfair to ask him to also absorb the less common risk associated with certain delivery addresses - different from buyer and access by other parties would be a risk present in this case but not necessarily all cases. This is all just speculation because we don't know who all may have had access to mail at the delivery address, but I know some postmen leave packages in apartment stairwells under the mailboxes if it won't fit in the mailbox. I'm just pointing this out as an example of why I think it's over-simplistic to say it's always on the seller. If the buyer's delivery situation presents some higher-than-normal risk, I think he is obliged to let the seller know or at least talk about delivery rather than assume that the seller is willing to absorb this extra risk. As an example, Leon often self-insures packages - takes the risk but does not buy insurance, figuring he will pay out of his pocket if there is a problem. I would think that if a buyer had an unusual risk on his end, Leon would need to know before shipping or he would not be responsible for it. If he knows, he has the opportunity to buy commercial insurance. If not, he's on the hook for osmething he didn't bargain for or even know about. I'm just saying it's not that simple all the time. J

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03-28-2008, 07:21 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Just today I committed to buy something off the B/S/T board for "$xx delivered." I don't think it's my responsbility as a buyer to ask the seller if I need to pay for shipping insurance in order to not be held responsbile if the shipment gets lost or damaged. Conversely, when I post something for sale and include "delivered" with the asking price (which I almost always do), I feel it's my duty as a seller to insure the package or else accept responsbility if it doesn't arrive safely.

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03-28-2008, 10:26 PM

Posted By: Marty KohlerWOW..........I have to say that I agree with the majority here. Joanne as always makes very good points as things are never really black and white.... such is life. Since Addie took the time to ask the board the question, and even though he doesn`t fully understand business I am willing to share the burdon and except $75 back. (I would rather have the card and maybe there is still hope it will come. I do think this board is very cool with some very bright people. Thank you, Marty P.S. The package was sent to JOHN Kohler my first name. This is never a problem. GO YARD

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03-28-2008, 10:41 PM

Posted By: JoannNow it's my turn to say WOW. Addie, here is your perfect example of what a few of the posters upthread were saying about reputation. This kind of thing will both boost and solidify Marty's reputation here, which will not only make future transactions smoother but is also something to be proud of. It's simply a decent thing to do on his part. You seem like a really good guy. Watch and learn from what Marty just did. It's exactly what the BST is about, and what Dave was trying to get at in terms of the importance of trust and responsibility and good relations. J

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03-28-2008, 10:53 PM

Posted By: Jerry Hrechka I had an interesting experiences once with the PO. In Nov. of 2006 I did a NonSports card trade with a fellow collector who lived in Balt. On my end I received $200.00 value in cards and I sent him $100.00 value in cards plus a $100.00 USPS MO. On that same day (It was a Monday, cann't remeber the exact date) I mailed a package to Australia. The overseas package arrived on Thursday. My cards from Baltimore arrived on Wednsday. Tha cards to Balt. are not delivered in a timely manner. On Dec. 15 I send a $200.00 refund to my trading partner. After a big hassle with the PO I got a refund for the uncashed $100.00 MO. The package finally arrives in April, undamaged with no explanation from the PO. Proof of the date of shipment is on the MO, since I bought it, placed it in the package and mailed it. My trading buddy returns the uncashed MO to me plus another $100.00. Only bad experience I've had with the PO but it taught me a lesson. Next trade I made had Delivery Confirmation plus Insurance.

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03-28-2008, 10:56 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesyou do not have to insure the card for what it is worth. Just having ANY insurance is getting that card their with extra security. I have NEVER lost an insured or overnight package. SOme just have to quit being chincy and get rid of thier first nickel. It should be an automatic insured price when listing on the B/S/T or disclosed oterwise. I think it is irking that someone can list a 3k card and then state that if you want insurance pay an extra 10 bucks. If a rediculous amout is stated on another card of less value and my package doesnt match the asked amount i will not like doing business with that person. Asking price SHOULD ALWAYS include shipping and insurance on a card with the B/S/T. It doesnt take much to say you want 510.00 bucks then to say 500.00. Complicating a simple matter can lead to a blown deal. ALl remember that not all people are on the same wave length.Learn to do business more professionally. SOme here never want to give a card up if it is less then what they payed for it. Learn how to buy and expect to sometimes pay to much , it happens. Balance will come eventually, that is all I look for. WIn some-lose some. You can hold a crap load of inventory for being overpriced ,then when you finally give one good deal....some may turn the other way and think...hmm....what is wrong with this picture, this guy never takes care of anybody. GIving back always gets reward.

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03-28-2008, 11:11 PM

Posted By: Scott Mt JoyTo sum it up- Wow put Marty on the would deal with any time list, now thats how you build a great reputation. Addie, IMO I really think you should pay the full amount, if this had happened on ebay you would be responsible, marty is being nice and letting you off the hook. Board lesson, always insure when you are the seller and the amount is above what you would mind paying out if the package doesnt arrive. As a buyer I insure a card when I want to make sure it arrives in the condition I purchased it at.

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03-29-2008, 04:32 AM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanI have worked for the PO for many years. (I delivered mail on a camel to the three wise men) Even though 99.9 % of the tens of millions of packages that we deliver every day arrive safely and on time, I would not even consider mailing a $150 card without insurance. For cards in the $10-$40 range - sure. Save the $ on the shipping costs and self insure. For anything more expensive spend a couple of bucks and use Insurance AND delivery confirmation. This way your card is protected against loss or damage and with the del con you can go online and see when it was delivered. Sometimes you just have to be patient and the item will turn up. Did you put, ie., 75443 for a zip instead of the correct 75434? When the clerk put on the meter strip did the clerk put on the correct zip? Did the carrier leave a pink slip in your mailbox, 2 weeks ago, informing you that you have a package at the PO? (This happens a lot. Look in the bottom of your mailbox for a pink slip.) Did your wife take the package in the house and forget to tell you that it is sitting on her desk? Do your kids bring in the mail when they get home from school? Did you tape on a flimsy paper address label and the label fell off? These are the types of things that cause most of the problems with parcels that are late or damaged. Marty - way to go. Rick

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03-29-2008, 09:31 AM

Posted By: BobWithout getting in to the insurance vs. no insurance morass, I will state that anyone who ships an item worth more than $50 and doesn't just pay out of his own pocket for a delivery confirmation EVEN IF THE GUY SAYS HE DOESN'T WANT INSURANCE is absolutely, certifiably crazy. During the last year I have had three sales which were all around $250, two of which were non-sports related, that said they didn't get their purchase. Besides the initial heart failure, I easily checked the USPS website and saw where all had been delivered. It turned out that a wife, a daughter and a nephew had in each case picked up the package and then had left in a closet, in a basement and the last one was an undisclosed location. Two sent nice apologies the third never responded other than with a "harumph, I got it." The reason I started using delivey confirmation on ALL transactions involved a Goudey Waner I sold on ebay which, like the roach motel, made it in to the Memphis post office but never made it out. The envelope, sans card, was later discovered in a break room.

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03-29-2008, 09:15 PM

Posted By: Al SimeoneAddie, For what its worth if I were in your position I would have paid back the whole amount. Joann and many of the others make some very strong and good points. You should learn to "grow up" a little and if this is your one and hopefully only experience and it only cost you 150 you should consider yourself very lucky.Many of lifes lessons can cost much more than that! By you whining about who was right and who was wrong thats where I feel you lost the respect from some of the people on this board. Believe me I have based my whole life on my reputation and once you have lost that its very hard to get it back. You should have at the very least put a delivery confirmation on the item. 60c could have saved you and Marty alot of grief. I myself give Marty alot of credit for coming on and at least be willing to split the cost of the item (which he doesnt have) with you. Thats where his reputation has gone up 10 fold! I havnt seen you come back and at least tell us all what you have decided to do. Make an adult decision but above all make it fair. If you read the above posts carefully I think the answer is right in front of you.

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03-29-2008, 09:26 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittBob.....if he'd bought delivery confirmation, since it's lost, he'd be right where he is now. No delivery, no scan, no information and no recourse with the post office. If it gets delivered and the girlfriend puts it in the basket in the hallway, yeah, you're safe cause it got scanned (if it did). Only scanned when delivered. You don't know it's been held up in Parsippany or it's going through Chicago. Only when it's delivered. I don't like delivery confirmation. If they ever go to intermediate scanning of packages, it might have some value. Beyond that, none. Now....if you ship through paypal, DC only costs like 10 cents or something. That's about what it's worth. Like you said on a $5 card, you know when it's delivered.

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04-12-2008, 11:28 AM

Posted By: Marty KohlerHello everyone, Sadly I feel I must report that after all the help, advice and agreeing to split the cost with him "Addie" (Frank) has not returned e-mails or sent a check for $75. It`s all to bad. His was a name I had seen on the board before, therefore, I didn`t expect a problem.........Marty P.S. Makes me wonder again if it was ever sent? GO YARD

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04-12-2008, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Jim VBMarty, Sorry to hear about your ongoing troubles. I'd noticed that addie had been conspicuous by his absence for the last couple of weeks. I got the sense, both from this thread and one other, that he might have a hard time accepting and/or doing the right thing here. It's no excuse but as a college student, he may not have the funds to make it right. I suspected when he went "away" that it might be the last we hear from him. Since he is using an email account at a New York State, publicly funded university the school might assist you in tracking him down. Institutions frown on people who use the school's name while conducting shady deals. A call to the college administrative offices might shake him into replying. At this point, I'd be asking for 100% of my money back, if I was you In any case, I stand by my original assesment. His days on the B/S/T here look like they're over. (Edited before posting to remove several traces of "crustiness"!)

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04-12-2008, 03:33 PM

Posted By: PhilI thought something was fishy about this the whole time. I thought the correct thing was to refund your money 100%. The amount of goodwill he would have got from sucking up the $150 would far outweigh the cost of the $150. As it looks now, no amount of money will bring back his reputation. As Shakespeare said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

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04-12-2008, 04:51 PM

Posted By: Dave FI would think an immedidate ban at this point no matter what excuse is given (if one is given) in the future would apply. Made me mad to start with the way the guy handled it and kept defending himself.

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04-12-2008, 06:15 PM

Posted By: Jim VBFor the record, addie has taken the time to send be three emails this afternoon, complaining that I am not giving him the benefit of the doubt, I'm not taking him at his word, I am calling him a crook and a liar, and on and on. He says that this is none of my business and I should be "uninvolved." I did point out that he was the one who originally posted on the board and asked for advice. Now that he doesn't like that advice, we should "butt out." He also took great offense that I suggested dragging SUNY Purchase into this. I'm not sure if he's a student or an employee, but it doesn't matter. If he's using their email service, they have a right to know. I did ask him to stop emailing me directly and suggested he explain himself here. We'll see. I agree with Dave F. Barring some really dramatic revelation, he doesn't belong here. He has put a price of $150 on him good name. Sad.

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04-12-2008, 06:17 PM

Posted By: Fred CWhat if Addie has a postal receipt that shows the zip code to where the package was sent? Does that suffice as proof that an item was sent? When I ship USPS the post office provides me with a receipt that indicates the zip code to where the package was sent. In any case, the postal service kind of sucks at times and you just have to be PATIENT.

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04-12-2008, 06:25 PM

Posted By: Cashews<a href="http://www.stopcyberbullying.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.stopcyberbullying.com/</a> seriously though, contacting his school/job? thats kinda crazy.

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04-12-2008, 06:59 PM

Posted By: Jim VBFred, I believe he has such a receipt (at least he says he does, and I have no reason not to believe him.) I think he mailed the card and it was lost or stolen in the mail. But as the seller, it's his responsibility to get the card to the buyer. What if Marty had mailed cash and could prove he had mailed it? Would addie still be responsible to send the card out, even if he had not received the cash? In this case, the buyer can prove he executed his end of the deal. The seller can not. Marty's offer to split the price was great. Two weeks later, they're still arguing over who sent who an email. Addie hasn't sent a check for the half. Cashews, The email he is using is that of a public university in the State of New York. It is funded by taxpayers. If in fact (big "IF"), he is using their email service and not dealing in good faith, they would want to know and would be interested. I only suggested it because Marty said that addie had not answered his email. I don't think contacting the ISP is any more "bullying" than contacting the police if an internet sale goes bad.

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04-12-2008, 07:07 PM

Posted By: Cashewsi don't know i disagree. if he's a student then he's paying for it with his tuition. the tax payer thing seems like grasping for straws. i never want to see someone either lose their job or be kicked out of school because of something so comparitively silly as the post office losing a package and him not wanting to give a full refund. for all you know the guy might end up paying it all back anyway. to go after him like that seems kinda sadistic to me. just my opinion.

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04-12-2008, 07:16 PM

Posted By: Tom GrossThe poster "cashews" is the same person as the Addie Joss poster. "Cashews" posted that he won this card in a past pickup thread: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/4nze9s" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/4nze9s</a> If you look at the buyer's feedback, you will see that he also purchased a CDV with Abner Doubleday in it, along with 100 other people. Take a look at this post: CDV: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350026827948" target="_new">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350026827948</a> Post: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/4xo8vt" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/4xo8vt</a> The card mentioned in the post is clearly the same item as the eBay link. Also, you will noticed that all posts by "Cashews" started when the member Addie Joss started to take heat from other board members. Just my observations. Tom Gross.

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04-12-2008, 07:17 PM

Posted By: Jeff D.Fred C - I believe that a self-serve kiosk would provide the same receipt. It would not necessarily prove the package was actually put in a box for delivery. Presumably, one could buy postage and walk out the door with the package. Not trying to accuse anyone of anything, just playing devil's advocate. The same can be said about delivery confirmation purchased through PayPal. It doesn't prove the package was ever actually sent.

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04-12-2008, 07:23 PM

Posted By: Joe D.cashews? cmon.... are you addie? this is beyond silly. Leon - help out here if you can - please check the IP addresses

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04-12-2008, 07:25 PM

Posted By: Cashewsaddie is my nephew, the ebay account is a family one. if you are so interested you'll see my wife's jewelry purchases as well. i joined the board after he told me what happened and have enjoyed the place thus far. i am however not happy with this situation and need to stand up for him. he's a good kid and its a shame this happened but i do feel it is blown out of proportion. i trust he will do what is right. if i am shunned by association i will kindly tip my head and not post either. he has already deleted his account a few days ago. i will lurk as well if it is suggested.

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04-12-2008, 07:32 PM

Posted By: Randy TrierweilerI don't believe one word of Cashew's post.

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04-12-2008, 07:36 PM

Posted By: Cashewsthat is a shame randy but you don't have to its your right.

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04-12-2008, 07:39 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCashews you need to put a valid email address with your posts.

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04-12-2008, 07:41 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellYet another example of why people with no name or email address displayed shouldn't be allowed to post. Bill

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04-12-2008, 07:42 PM

Posted By: leonGood catch. IT's exactly these kinds of threads where anonymity isn't allowed. Cashews you are going to either have to make yourself known or not post, or at very least, not post in these types of threads. I too am leaning towards Randy's thinking......until proven otherwise....regards

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04-12-2008, 07:43 PM

Posted By: Cashewsi'm not on trial here dan. you can take my word for it or not. surely we are not the only family members on the board, are we? besides this fight is not mine to fight i just wanted to stand up for the kid because he's taken a lot of heat. i wish it was all dropped he will right everything. he worries though that even then it will be something else so he is no longer posting and has no desire to. i take it i am not welcomed either.

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04-12-2008, 07:45 PM

Posted By: leonI still feel that some anonymity should be allowed if it's only in factual threads. I think the forum has benefited greatly from letting anonymous posting be done. It's much more difficult to manage though.....

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04-12-2008, 07:46 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWhy wouldn't Cashews just say it's my nephew when he first accused Jim of cyberbullying? Instead this is what he wrote: "for all you know the guy might end up paying it all back anyway." My money's on Cashews = Addie (Frank)

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04-12-2008, 07:48 PM

Posted By: Joe D.edit: never mind.

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04-12-2008, 07:50 PM

Posted By: Cashewsi wasnt trying to out myself and our relationship because i didnt want the association backlash. i just wanted to stand up for my nephew and make a point that would be listened to instead of cast off because of our association. i have been watching the thread develop for a while now but finally had to break my silence. this isnt the scandal it is made out to be.

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04-12-2008, 07:52 PM

Posted By: Joe D.if it is my nephew: instead of defending him - I would be telling him to at least email the person he owes money to. And I would be telling him to refund the entire $150. lack of communication is just plain wrong. And I would let my nephew know it... instead of defending him.

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04-12-2008, 07:52 PM

Posted By: Scott LCashews Can you tell us why your newphew hasn't sent Marty the agreed to refund yet?

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04-12-2008, 07:55 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellThere's a hard & fast rule here, imho - no matter how much you post, if you don't divulge any personal info, you don't get to say anything of substance. Questions are okay, although we've seen that approach abused, as well (e.g., 'how much is my item worth', followed by jockeying for offers). Too many people confuse privacy (not sharing an email address) with anonymity. We've seen the results... trolls. Bill

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04-12-2008, 07:57 PM

Posted By: Cashewsscott i would be happy to answer that question. the reason is that my nephew had e-mailed marty asking if he would accept the half refund he was prepared to offer but he hadnt heard back from marty until a few days ago. my nephew tells me martys e-mail was in his spam folder and he hadnt been aware hed gotten it until he saw this thread again. he has since e-mail marty and though he only wanted to give a half refund and told marty he would send him 75 dollars he will give a full one. martys check is going out on tuesday.

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04-12-2008, 07:59 PM

Posted By: Scott LGlad to hear it will work out. Thank you.

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04-12-2008, 08:00 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCashews why aren't you putting a valid email address with your posts?

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04-12-2008, 08:02 PM

Posted By: Cashewsdan i dont feel like being e-mailed thats why. if i were to sell something of course i'd privately message someone with my address but otherwise i dont see why its needed. its my private account and i dont wish to be contacted unless i want to be. network54 has my e-mail address that i used to register and i feel it is their business only.

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04-12-2008, 08:03 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWell, I don't really feel you should be posting to this forum then. Until such point you make it clear you are not Frank then you should not be posting here.

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04-12-2008, 08:05 PM

Posted By: Joe D.full refund... that is great news. great for addie. looking back at this... he will be able to hold his head up high and be proud of how he finally resolved the situation.

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04-12-2008, 08:05 PM

Posted By: Cashewswhat do you suggest i do? post a scan of my license? i am a private person and wish to remain as such. i dont feel as though i have anything to prove and have caused no trouble. your inquest is fine but i will decline to offer anymore personal information about myself or my family.

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04-12-2008, 08:21 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWell I certainly don't want to come across as the Spanish Inquisition here, but those rules are put in place for a reason.

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04-12-2008, 08:31 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Addie & Co.: You may remain anonymous as long your post is not controversial or confrontational. Email addresses and full names are required in these cases. It's the first freaking rule of the board, found on <a href="http://www.network54.com/Index/40998">this page</a>. If you don't like the rule, then don't post. Seems pretty simple.

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04-12-2008, 08:33 PM

Posted By: Cashewsim not being confrontational or controversial. i think i have been quite calm. its already been made clear that my nephew will make good so why harp over it?

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04-12-2008, 08:36 PM

Posted By: MattFirst props to Tom Gross for the detective work - well done. Second, just to clarify something above, I believe all Addie has ever claimed to have is a receipt showing he paid for postage to a certain zip code; no proof that the item was ever mailed and certainly no proof it got delivered. The receipt I get from shipping something USPS without delivery confirmation/registered mail, etc. is just a receipt of paying for postage. It says nothing about whether the postage was actually used.

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04-12-2008, 08:39 PM

Posted By: Cashewsmatt the postal receipt shows the destination of the package. unless you are suggesting my nephew sent a decoy package to the same town i don't know what you're trying to say. as was stated, my nephew will make good so why harp over it? also, i dont know how it is at your local post office but where we live if you have a package weighed for postage it is always taken from the weigh table and placed into a cart with other weighted mail. is it different where you live? are you suggesting my nephew stole the package back he had paid the postage for? or are you suggesting my nephew sent a phantom package to an arbitrary address? my nephew has countless seller feedback on ebay. there has never been a problem before and he even provided marty with our user name to use as a reference. again, there is no need to even go on further as a full refund will be given to marty. youre beating a dead horse here.

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04-12-2008, 08:48 PM

Posted By: Jim VBCashews, For the record, I didn't take your post about bullying to be controversial or confrontational. It's one of the few issues in this thread that has two valid sides and is debatable. I also do not think that you and addie are the same person. Your writing styles are very different. If you really are the same person you are very good at hiding it. I'm glad addie is following up on settling this. It's the right thing to do. On a different thread... were you able to work out the issue of the missing Hank Aaron signed ball? (With tongue in cheek), maybe you should just let it go. I'm sure the seller really mailed it.

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04-12-2008, 08:54 PM

Posted By: MattCashews - I wasn't suggesting anything about what you(r nephew) did or didn't do; I was just pointing out what proof he had. Proof of purchase of postage is not equivalent to proof of mailing. As you suggest the issue is resolved then there is no need to discuss it further.

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04-12-2008, 09:04 PM

Posted By: Cashewsi did work out that issue and i received the ball today. whole thing seems like a damned if you do damned if you dont situation. my nephew is giving a refund but will continue to be shunned and now i will be shunned because of our relation and conspiracy theorists. having an opinion about something is one thing but i do feel like a few of you were very unfair to my nephew in the personal aspects you took the situation to. i feel as though a lot of you were quick to judge and even though you called my nephew a child and immature acted that way yourselves. im not pointing any fingers or calling anyone any names but things escalated extremely quickly from my nephew defending his position to an all out pile on even if my nephew may have been in the wrong. still he never felt the need to take it to that level while some of you did in this thread and his innocent grover cleveland thread. i am now happy to say the whole thing is over. if you still dont want me to post anymore then i wont. but just for the record i really enjoy this site.

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04-12-2008, 09:15 PM

Posted By: Jim VBIf your nephew makes good, I don't think he'll be shunned. And I certainly don't think you said or did anything that called for shunning. Perhaps you could have been a little more transparent in the familial connection, but no real harm was done as I see it.

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04-12-2008, 09:24 PM

Posted By: Dave FWow. This all just gets dumber and dumber.

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04-12-2008, 09:29 PM

Posted By: Cashewsdave f i was waiting for you to chime in. you seem like the kind of guy id want to have a whiskey with.

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04-12-2008, 11:47 PM

Posted By: Anthony S.Curious how the moment "Shoppincher" ("my parents won't let me give my email address") was dispatched, Addie showed up. And then after Addie wouldn't do right by Marty, Addie's "uncle" (wink, wink), "Cashews", showed up. Strange. Dare I say, coincidental. Who's next?

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04-13-2008, 12:38 AM

Posted By: ElmI just can't believe how many times "your" is being used when it should be "you're." This board needs spell check.

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04-13-2008, 05:50 AM

Posted By: SteveSpell check would not help in that case as 'your' is a properly spelled word. Steve

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04-13-2008, 06:02 AM

Posted By: BrianYour going to be disappointed with you're suggestion. You're going to be disappointed with your suggestion. Their going to be disappointed with they're suggestion. They're going to be disappointed with their suggestion. There.

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04-13-2008, 06:28 AM

Posted By: Dan KravitzWow, how silly! Anyone doing deals through USPS (or any other co.) needs to spend a buck and get some kind of receipt. Period! I would expect my card/purchase or my money back, if you can't show proof of shipping. It's a tough lesson, but should only have to be learned once. Come on, how old do you need to be to understand that logic? Cashews... You need to explain to Joss that doing $100+ deals on the internet comes with some responsibility. No defense necessary, just some common sense.

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04-13-2008, 06:31 AM

Posted By: Dan KravitzThere - place Their - possessive They're - they are

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04-13-2008, 10:28 AM

Posted By: Fred CJeff and Jim, Thanks for the "food for thought". I tend to believe that most people here (on this board) are honest so my thought process is kind of fixed (in a sense). In any case, the comments were good, it's always nice to see the whole picture. It sounds as if a 50/50 shared responsibility is going to take place, that's awesome in that both parties are willing to work it out. I guess the best outcome will be when Marty pays that 50% back (if the package arrives). I've purchased things on the BST and in a few cases the items were recieved within days. In one case the item was shipped, insured but didn't arrive for almost a month. Since the seller is a board member in good standing I never really worried about it too much.

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04-13-2008, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Cashewsnevermind just live and let live. this is over.

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04-13-2008, 02:57 PM

Posted By: ElmGrammar check?? :D

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04-13-2008, 06:13 PM

Posted By: Stevehe receipt I get from shipping something USPS without delivery confirmation/registered mail, etc. is just a receipt of paying for postage. It says nothing about whether the postage was actually used It most certainly does. It proves an item was sent because the receipt shows the zip code it was sent to. The only receipt I get when I do not send a package is a receipt for stamps. In this case the OP sent a parcel to the zip code. Steve

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04-13-2008, 06:37 PM

Posted By: Matt"It proves an item was sent because the receipt shows the zip code it was sent to." No, all that proves is that you bought postage to send something to that zip code. As I said above, unless I ship it with some additional service, like delivery confirmation, where they give you a separate USPS stamped receipt of shipping, all I get is a a receipt of paying for postage to a zip code.

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04-14-2008, 01:02 AM

Posted By: Steve I get is a a receipt of paying for postage to a zip code. What are you talking about? You mean you can buy postage to a zip code and not send anything? Anytime and I mean EVERYTIME I buy 'postage' to a zipcode I have to send something. A letter, a parcel a magazine. Steve

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04-14-2008, 01:15 AM

Posted By: Steve No, all that proves is that you bought postage to send something to that zip code Earlier you claimed it meant that postage was only bought but not used. You can't buy postage to a zipcode and leave with the item and say you will send it later. It is not the same as using buying stamps, at the counter with a stack of items and walking away. I'm really not following your logic here. Steve

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04-14-2008, 04:46 AM

Posted By: barrysloateGee, I haven't looked back at this thread since it was resurrected...and I missed a spelling and usage discussion. I have to get on the ball.

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04-14-2008, 05:07 AM

Posted By: bobwSomeone using the automated postal machine in the PO could mail their package, get a receipt showing the zip code but then NOT deposit the package in the chute.

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04-14-2008, 05:20 AM

Posted By: Dave FThe bottom line is it doesn't matter...receipt, no receipt...who cares. The package never arrived. "Addie" dropped the ball on this one. I do find it funny basically the day he quits posting here all the sudden his uncle starts up. Neither "Addie" nor "Uncle" have provided a public email here. If there is actually an uncle suddenly posting here unfortunately there is enough fishy questions raised for me that I'd never do business with either one.

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04-14-2008, 05:30 AM

Posted By: Cashewsyour hands must be made of glue.

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04-14-2008, 05:33 AM

Posted By: Dave F"Uncle Cashews", don't beat around the bush...what does that mean?

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04-14-2008, 06:13 AM

Posted By: SteveSomeone using the automated postal machine in the PO could mail their package, get a receipt showing the zip code but then NOT deposit the package in the chute. How do you 'mail your package' yet not deposit i in a chute? I have never seen an automated postal machine in a PO that a customer can use. And if the OP used any near the college (I am from the same area) he sure as heck didn't. Bottom line is he claims to have sent it, it didn't arrive and he is obligated to get the item or the money to the buyer. Steve

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04-14-2008, 06:29 AM

Posted By: leonEvery post office I go into in Dallas (and that is about 5 different ones) have self service kiosks....I use them frequently and you can absolutely buy postage and not send the package. No one would know and you can just take your package and leave after the postage stamp is processed. As for this Cashews vs Addie dilemma....I am thinking Cashews = Addie. In 7 yrs on this board you start to get to know how people act and things occur. How many people have we seen login with the same IP address, stay anonymous, claim to be the cousin/uncle of someone else in a dispute and ALL the time wanting to remain anonymous? Answer - 0. If I had a cousin or brother having issues I would come out and say....Hi, I am "Bob Smith" and so and so is my cousin. I wouldn't be anonymous. Plus, just having 2 vintage collectors that aren't immediate family in the same house is sort of a long shot to start with. I think Addie is Cashews. If I am not correct then Cashews can prove me wrong. All of this being said Cashews is about a half a step from being banned due to the anonymity rules on the forum. regards

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04-14-2008, 06:37 AM

Posted By: boxingcardman"I have never seen an automated postal machine in a PO that a customer can use." Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-14-2008, 06:40 AM

Posted By: Jeff D.Steve I don't want to bemoan the issue but my post office has a self serve, automated kiosk, and it's your own responsibility to put the package in a huge mail box (like a giant version of the blue things outside) after the machine prints out postage that you must affix to your own package. There are no postal employees supervising any of this. And upon thinking about this some more, I have myself purchased postage for an unsealed envelope, had it affixed to the package, and then walked away with it, so that I could continue to fill out a money order and place it within the package with the "pre-printed" stamp. No one would have stopped me if I walked out the door. I agree though that none of this really matters, but it IS possible to have a receipt with a zip and not send the package. <img src="http://images.townnews.com/nctimes.com/content/articles/2004/12/08/news/californian/22_15_2812_7_04.jpg">

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04-14-2008, 08:07 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieConsidering the number of responses to this original post, I suspect it has ventured way off topic, more than once. I simply do not have the time to read through it.. I will say this; I typically check the sellers feedback and if its clean, I presume the package was lost in the mail, hope it returns to sender or eventually gets to me.. As long as the seller is cooperative and responds to emails, we will work it out.  I'm pretty easy to deal with.  martyOgelvie nyyankeecards.comedited for clarity.. still not very clear though..

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04-14-2008, 08:11 AM

Posted By: Rob D.The post office I go to in Westerville, Ohio, not exactly a metropolis like Dallas or Los Angeles, also has a self-serve kiosk (which I use whenever possible, btw.)

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04-14-2008, 08:15 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaAddie did use his email one time that I'm aware of - I believe his real name is Frank Weisberg - at least that's the email that he used. I too think Cashews = Addie. I know the writing styles are different, but I guess if one were trying to hide from his past persona why not just stop using capitalization and punctuation?

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04-14-2008, 11:27 AM

Posted By: ChuckMontoyaI lurk here alot....for years now. I've posted before to say how much the dealings and respect have impressed me so very much. That being said, who cares if Addie is a kid? Does that excuse him from fairness and the expectation of being a stand up guy? As the saying goes "If you can't play with the Big Dogs, then stay on the porch" If I had a nephew that approached his dealings in the manner that Addie has, I would kick him in the butt, make him write a letter of apology to the Board and, make him repay every dime. Furthermore I would encourage him to tell Marty to keep the cards if they ever show up. Addie/Cashew seem to be cut from the same cloth. Neither of them deserve to be a part of this board! What a crock when Cashew has the audacity to say that some were too hard on the boy. Make him be responsible or he'll never be a MAN!! I think this boy needs a good old fashion 'splainin session. Nuff Said, Chuck Montoya Edited title....... Plus I really would've liked to see how Addie would handle this had he been on the short end of this deal. No Class. Absolutely No Class!

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04-14-2008, 12:42 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanI just went through a lost card issue with a seller. I paid $4.92 for a common card, plus $1.99 for shipping it. He tossed the card in a regular mail envelope with a stamp on it. The envelope must have split in the mail or something because I got an envelope with a packing slip but no card. The seller offered to send a replacement card, I said fine. Weeks passed with no card, so I filed a paypal claim. He then sent the replacement card. I left neutral feedback because I had to push so much to get the replacement; now he's all ticked off at me for the neutral. I don't know, I just feel that a seller has the obligation to properly pack an item so that it stands a chance of getting there in one piece and if it doesn't because the packaging is crap, do the right thing and take some friggin' responsibility, especially if it is a cheap, common item and you have a ready replacement. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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04-14-2008, 01:08 PM

Posted By: leonEverything you said.....ditto from me too. BTW, I think we are seeing how Addie would handle it....uh er...I mean Cashews....the alter ego....

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04-14-2008, 02:43 PM

Posted By: JKThe funniest thing to me about this entire thread - which I just wasted half a day reading <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> - is Cashew's link to the cyber bullying website. Even after taking half a second to read that site, its clear that no such "bullying" occured here. Cyber bullying - that's just rich.

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04-14-2008, 03:25 PM

Posted By: DMcDI think Cashews (gesundheit) was trying to help out Jim VB who received three unwanted e-mails (cyber-bullying?) from Addie who, it appears, is Cashews in the first place and it just gets curiouser and curiouser. Vintage cards, Hawaiian maidens, plenty penguins and more at . . <a href="http://ImageEvent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://ImageEvent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika</a>

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04-14-2008, 04:14 PM

Posted By: AndySomething similar happened to me. I won a T206 card from Denny Walsh, and paid for the item. I emailed to ask if he would guarantee the card was not trimmed, he didn't respond and the card never arrived. He claimed that he sent it, but since I didn't opt for insurance he did nothing and I was out my money. I did not like that very much.

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04-14-2008, 04:16 PM

Posted By: MattAndy - did you leave negative feedback?

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04-14-2008, 04:47 PM

Posted By: Bob L. aka Peanut BrittleI came here to defend both Addie and Cashews. I am Cashews fathers, brothers, twice removed cousins,half sisters former room mate.These guys are telling the truth and haved been wronged by you forum members..... Obviously I am just kidding and I have to say that this goes right up there with the "dog ate my homework" line. A total load of BS. Regards, "Peanut Brittle"

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04-14-2008, 07:18 PM

Posted By: ElmI literally don't know a single person on this board, so I can't be considered as biased, but it seems to me this Addie fellah was only looking for opinions on a topic most of us have experienced to some degree in our collecting lives. What to do when there's a problem with a mailed card not reaching its destination. If he's a scammer, why'd he start this thread to begin with? What's the point? He seems to only have gotten flustered when certain "pilers on" appeared, as they always do.

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04-14-2008, 07:24 PM

Posted By: Dave FElm, Would love to know who "piled it on" as they always do, unjustly.

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04-14-2008, 07:26 PM

Posted By: ElmCome on now. You wanna bait me? Ain't gonna happen. The fact remains, he started the thread. What's the angle for a scam here?

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04-14-2008, 08:03 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI personally don't think he was trying to scam anyone. I think the package got lost. He is still responsible for the package getting to its destination though and he should reimburse the buyer.

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04-14-2008, 08:11 PM

Posted By: Dave FElm, No...I don't want to bait you. I'm simply saying go ahead and expand on what you said about folks here piling on. Would love to know what was said that wasn't justified. As you say it, you don't know anyone here...thats fine. I'll fill you in, the BST is what it is because the members here use it responsibly and act like adults, unlike all the cowboy and indian crap going on with ebay. If its not used properly, then someone shouldn't be allowed to use it. Not sure Elm what would constitute a "problem" in your world, but to me just because someone starts a thread about themselves not doing the right thing and hoping someone will agree with them doesn't make them untouchable. Neither does the excuses that the buyer didn't ask for insurance, neither does the excuse of being a kid, and neither does the excuse of dropping their little handle here totally after the going got rough and choosing another handle (the amusing part being that he named himself after a nut), and pretending to be the uncle (only after someone busted him on that). So no Elm, not trying to "bait" you, trying to understand you....

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04-14-2008, 08:26 PM

Posted By: ElmYou're giving this thread waaaaay more thought than I am. As my message title explicitly expressed, I was playing 'devil's advocate' in wondering where any scamming came into play. And I still refuse to be baited by you. Thanks anyway.

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04-14-2008, 08:33 PM

Posted By: Dave FElm, I'm not trying to argue if it was a scam. I said above earlier today I don't care if he has a receipt, doesn't have a receipt, shipped the card to the correct address, put it in his dresser drawer or shipped it to Santa Claus...thats all well and good, the card didn't get there. It has nothing to do with being a scam. It was simply someone using this board that couldn't provide exactly what they are supposed to, either the card or the money back. The only reason I'm putting way too much into this as you said is because you chose to come on here and say there are folks that piled on this guy as they always do in every thread....so, back up that statement. I'm sure one of the folks is/was me. Back up that statement, or shutup.

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04-14-2008, 08:36 PM

Posted By: ElmFunny, I don't recall electing you as arbiter around these parts. Keep piling on. No problem.

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04-14-2008, 08:56 PM

Posted By: ChuckMontoyaMaybe Elm is "Cashews fathers, brothers, twice removed cousins,half sisters former room mate" Seriously though Elm, Addie asked what others would do and then acted like somebody raped his favorite baby seal when the answers came. I think his bringing this to the board was his way of trying to feel out whether he could actually get away with not doing what is right. Unfortunately some folk delusionally figure that since they're smart then that means everbody else is stupid. Way too much life experience on this board for that kind of poopy. He needs to go back to maybe nickalodeons pog trading sight amongst his peers to play this kind of game. This has gone way past the idea of "an innocent" seeking to learn from the factotems that make up this board. Regards, Chuck Montoya

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04-14-2008, 09:04 PM

Posted By: ElmHey, Chuck. That was actually very funny! But, no, I have no connection to Addie the Cashew. I was playing devil's advocate because there seemed to be a lot of talk about scamming. I didn't read each and every post in the thread, so I was confused about why someone would start a thread only to be hammered for it. And we all know there are always certain people who just love to sit back and be tough guys on message boards. These are the pilers on I was referring to.

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04-14-2008, 09:48 PM

Posted By: JKElm, First you say people were piling on, then you state that you didnt read the entire thread. Which is it? Perhaps before you make comments like that you ought to at least have an idea what the thread was about. It really has nothing to do with scammers. Not one person here seriously believes that Addie tried to intentionally scam anyone - that doesnt change the fact that he didnt deliver a card that he was obligated to deliver.

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04-14-2008, 10:17 PM

Posted By: ElmJK said: "Elm, First you say people were piling on, then you state that you didnt read the entire thread. Which is it? Perhaps before you make comments like that you ought to at least have an idea what the thread was about. It really has nothing to do with scammers. Not one person here seriously believes that Addie tried to intentionally scam anyone - that doesnt change the fact that he didnt deliver a card that he was obligated to deliver." This is just out of control. What I said was "I didn't read each and every post in the thread." What the hell are you talking about, JK???? I don't have an idea what the thread is about? Are you effing kidding me??? Look who's piling on now. Yet you're criticizing me for saying people are piling on?????? What kind of stupid logic is that????? I know exactly what this thread is about. That's why I presented a devil's advocate side to it. CLEARLY people are thinking he's scamming. I have no idea whether or not he is.

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04-14-2008, 11:47 PM

Posted By: David GoffElm You keep saying people are "piling it on", when in fact not one person is doing such a thing. They are only giving their opinions. That's what Addie was asking for when he started this thread and that's what he received, which he did not like. If this were ebay and the buyer filed a complaint with ebay and paypal, Addie would be out the $150, no questions asked. I feel he didn't scam anyone either, but by what Marty posted (the buyer) Addie has yet to make good on his half refund and until that happens, people here are going to see him as a scammer. That's just the way of life. I am sorry if you see it differently. David edited to add interesting link..pretty much along the same lines as what's going on in this thread <a href="http://consumerist.com/379472/sears-refuses-to-refund-1070-for-tv-they-never-delivered" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://consumerist.com/379472/sears-refuses-to-refund-1070-for-tv-they-never-delivered</a>

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04-15-2008, 07:32 AM

Posted By: Dave FYour right Elm, no need for me to keep pointing out the facts here. This is way too one sided. Your a nut, and not putting anything of substance here other than to say people like Josh and I are "pilers".

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04-15-2008, 07:35 AM

Posted By: JKDave - Elm's just a troll who is trying to start something. He also needs to identify himself since he is not known per forum rules. I would just ignore him as he clearly has no idea what this thread is about.

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04-15-2008, 08:33 AM

Posted By: leonElm needs to be known if he wants to partake in this kind of thread. Anymore posts from Elm, in this thread, will be immediately deleted if they don't have a full name and good email address with them....nothing personal. It's the same rules for everyone. regards

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04-15-2008, 06:49 PM

Posted By: JoannI almost gotta go with Elm here. "Not one person here seriously believes that Addie tried to intentionally scam anyone" Josh, I know what you are trying to say - most people on this board will give the benefit of the doubt, and the fact that Addie has completely balled this thing up does not mean that everyone thinks he started out with an intent to defraud anyone. This board is generally more advanced than that. But when there is all this talk about how a receipt from the post office showing a destination zip code doesn't prove anything unless you have a video of yourself dropping the package into a mailbox (Whuh?? Huh??) or whatever, then very very clearly there are people here implying - or outright saying - that he set out to deliberatley scam someone. I know. I'm going to get responses to the effect that so and so never said that he didn't mail it. But when someone pointedly comments that a PO receipt with a destination zip code is bupkus by way of any evidence of mailing, surely the intent is to suggest that not only did Addie never mail it, but that he fabricated evidence to show he did. It's saying he's a scammer. So I do know what you mean Josh, and I like to think that of the board myself. But I also know what Elm means too. Maybe "piling on" is the wrong term because it implies a lot, or a majority, and that may be overstating it. But there is definitely a thread within this thread in which accusations of an intentional ripoff are implied. Par for the course anymore. J (Oh, and none of this changes the fact that Addie has made a mess of this. But as Josh and some others point out, it seems clear that it was a pure accident/mail loss, followed by some spectacularly poor decisions on his part.)

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04-15-2008, 07:02 PM

Posted By: MattHaha joann - so the piling on is my fault? Thanks for the laugh.

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04-15-2008, 07:32 PM

Posted By: JoannI don't think there necessarily is piling on. I think - read above - that there is a corner of this thread that moved beyond Addie not standing up like he should, and suggested that he outright pulled a scam by getting a receipt and not mailing the item. It's different. I think that most of the board stuck to the core issue of Addie's disastrous decisions after the card got lost or misdirected or whatever, and rightfully think he's not welcome here until he fixes those decisions. The "his PO receipt means nothing because a scammer would have a receipt without having mailed the item" part of the thread is, thankfully, a minority. Joann

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04-15-2008, 07:46 PM

Posted By: Mattjoann - there is no "his PO receipt means nothing because a scammer would have a receipt without having mailed the item" part of the thread. There is a "a PO receipt doesn't mean it got sent" part of this thread. There is a chasm between accusing someone of doing wrong and suggesting that their defense is not factually correct. The difference is one you have failed to make in multiple threads. To help illustrate, consider this (purposely silly) example: if someone accused of murder (A) comes on and says they couldn't have murdered because they are blind, a poster (B) saying that blind people can murder isn't accusing A of murder; B is just saying that such an argument is not factually accurate. All that was said here is that a receipt of paying for postage is not proof of mailing.

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04-15-2008, 07:53 PM

Posted By: Jim VBJoann, I agree with you that the core issue is that Addie has to step up and do the right thing, but... A part of addie's twisted logic was that he shouldn't have to do anything because he mailed the card and could "prove" it. Although I believe he did mail the card several people pointed out that there is at least one way to have the same proof he has and not have ever mailed the card. As long as he was holding that position, both on the board and in private emails to me, the only rebuttal was to let him know that his "proof" was less than ironclad. I don't think he ever intended to do anything wrong here, but when it went bad he asked for advice, and then attacked everyone who offered any, if it didn't agree with his own thinking. He was apparently hoping to get the board to say it was OK for him to do nothing. I for one, will never see it as "piling on" when he takes the time to send me three emails telling me to stop posting about him while at the same time, can't take the time to make contact with the buyer. If this is piling on, the board should do more of it.

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04-15-2008, 08:11 PM

Posted By: SteveI agree though that none of this really matters, but it IS possible to have a receipt with a zip and not send the package I stand corrected, I can say that around here (The part of Westchester I am in) we have nothing like that and FWIW I once asked the teller if he could do the metered post for me (I needed a timed post) and I'd send it later. He said no, once it is stamped here he has to take it. I guess it is like anything with them each branch will give you a different answer to a question. Steve

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04-15-2008, 08:14 PM

Posted By: JoannKnow what Matt? I could trash your logic and show it to be completely superficial and inconclusive. Even had a response to that effect typed. But I'm going to do something different instead. OK. You only pointed out a factual incorrectness in Addie's defense of having a receipt. You, a completely disinterested and logical bystander, merely called his attention to a factual bobble on his part. Right. The bottom line is this - all of your "factual inaccuracy" posts are fashioned with a view to putting your target in the worst possible light. I have never, ever, one time ever ever ever ever seen you give ANYONE the benefit of the doubt. Ever. Yours is always the harshest possible view of the facts, the most accusatory tone of the questioning, and the most geared toward suggesting that a person is dishonest, bad, wrong, an evildoer. A scammer. And then you want to hide behind your semantics and say 'well I never SAID that'. Well guess what Mac. You did. So I'm not going to pick apart your undeveloped logic. I will just say that it doesn't matter how you try to couch your words in wiggle room and technicalities. What matters is that you have never shown a hint of ability to advocate for any outcome except that someone else is a crook, a scammer, or whatever. Joann

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04-15-2008, 08:15 PM

Posted By: SteveThe sad thing about all this is for a lousy 2.00-3.00 this item could have been insured and had delivery confirmation. Steve

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04-15-2008, 08:15 PM

Posted By: JKJoanne, You state: "But when there is all this talk about how a receipt from the post office showing a destination zip code doesn't prove anything unless you have a video of yourself dropping the package into a mailbox (Whuh?? Huh??) or whatever, then very very clearly there are people here implying - or outright saying - that he set out to deliberatley scam someone." Sorry, but I think you completely miss the point. As Matt states, Addie used the receipt as a defense to stepping up and refunding the money. In essence, his argument was, "I can prove I sent it, therefore, I dont have to refund the money he sent me." Well, I think everyone who was commenting about the receipt was simply pointing out the implausibility of that defense. First, the receipt does not PROVE the card was sent; and second, even if you sent it, it didnt get there. Therefore, you have not lived up to your end of the deal." Surely you can recognize the difference between pointing out the flaws in ones logic and accusing someone of doing something illegal. That was the jist of this thread, nothing more. No accusations that Addie was intentionally scamming anyone. In fact, most went out of their way to note that they believed that the package was sent. Elm, on the otherhand, failed to read the thread in its entirety and failed to comprehend that this thread was not about piling on, but was instead responsive to Addie's own question.

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04-15-2008, 08:24 PM

Posted By: BrianI like applesauce.

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04-15-2008, 08:26 PM

Posted By: JKAs do I.

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04-16-2008, 05:43 AM

Posted By: JoannActually, Josh, as I think about your post I think you may be right and I am misreading the intent among some posters. The sad thing is that, ironically, when it comes to Matt I no longer give him the benefit of the doubt. I take the harshest possible view of his posts. I guess I've seen enough from him that I've decided that he is looking to press something, anything, at pretty much every opportunity. Even his nit nit nit little debating on every little thing kind of plays into it. So you are probably right - I may be painting the thread with too broad a brush. But I think the PO thing was (to be the very most generous I can in characterizing it) a bit close to the line of accusations that Matt seems to live on. Joann