Top 5 pitchers of all time?

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Posted By: <b>Erich</b><p>Who are your top 5 hurlers of all time?<br /><br />Here are mine (with a pic of the big train) in no specific order:<br /><br />Walter Johnson<br />Greg Maddux<br />Mordecai Brown<br />Pedro Martinez <br />Nolan Ryan<br /><br /><img src="http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l296/wolterse/T206WalterJohnsonThrowing.jpg">?t=1208217552

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Christy Mathewson<br />Walter Johnson<br />G.C. Alexander<br />Sandy Koufax<br />Bob Feller (war-shortened career)

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>In no order<br /><br />Mathewson<br />Johnson<br />Paige<br />Spahn<br />Carlton

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>what is with this greg maddux thing all of a sudden? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />i found this link...interesting...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/</a><br /><br /><br />my list:<br /><br />johnson<br />young<br />mathewson<br />koufax<br />clemens<br />

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Posted By: <b>Neal</b><p>My five are as follows:<br /><br />1)Walter Johnson<br /><br />2)Grover Cleveland Alexander <br /><br />3)Christy Mathewson <br /><br />4)Lefty Grove <br /><br />5) Warren Spahn<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>1. Walter Johnson<br />2. Christy Mathewson<br />3. Lefty Grove<br />4. Grover Cleveland Alexander<br />5. Cy Young

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Posted By: <b>David Goff</b><p>Here are my top 5<br /><br />In no particular order:<br /><br />Walter Johnson<br />Nolan Ryan<br />Sandy Koufax<br />Cy Young<br />Rube Foster<br /><br />David Goff

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Posted By: <b>Erich</b><p>i'm a bit biased b/c I grew up watching Maddux pitch for the Braves...but he's one of the best fielding pitchers in history (right there with 3 finger Brown), he's got Cy Youngs, is right up there with the all-time greats in SOs and Wins. it's tough to argue against him!

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Posted By: <b>Turner Engle</b><p>Mathewson<br />Johnson<br />Koufax<br />Ryan<br />Jenkins

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Posted By: <b>Craig W</b><p>Cy Young<br />Don Newcombe<br />Bob Gibson<br />Tom Seaver<br />Rollie Fingers

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, and Cy Young.<br /><br /><br />honorable mentions for Nichols, Galvin, Miner Brown, Plank, Hubbell, Spahn, Koufax, Gibson, and Seaver.

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Posted By: <b>Dennis Mosley</b><p>My 5 in order are 1 Johnson-Mathewson (You cannot say which is best it would do injustice to the other)2 Alexander 3 Young 4 Plank. NO new pitchers allowed on my list (Sorry). Thanks. Dennis.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Clemens, Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Koufax

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Posted By: <b>Chris Mc</b><p>Walter Johnson<br />Christy Mathewson<br />Cy Young<br />Grover Cleveland Alexander<br />Dickey Kerr <br /><br /> I kept it all prewar.

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Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>Not in any particular order:<br /><br />Walter Johnson<br />Lefty Grove<br />Grover Cleveland Alexander<br />Sandy Koufax<br />Bob Gibson

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Posted By: <b>Elm</b><p>I find this type of question very befuddling. <br />How can anyone list people from early in the last century without it being complete speculation? All we have to base it on is what's written in books or the cold reality of statistics. I'd like to see the Top 5 from, say, the 1960's on. Pitchers most of us have seen hurl many, many times in person or on TV. Know what I mean?<br /><br />Edited for grammar (and it probably needs more editing!).

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Posted By: <b>bruce dorskind</b><p><br />1. 1912 Boston Garter - Christy Matthewson<br /><br />2. 1910 Ramly - Walter Johnson<br /><br />3. 1893 Just So Cy Young<br /><br />4. E 107 Jack Chesbro<br /><br />5. 1933 Goudey Dizzy Dean<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>ROY HOBBS for sure!<br /><br />Seriously though<br /><br />Walter Johnson (Best ever)<br /><br />Lefty Grove (Would have had 450 wins if not for the way Minor League Contracts were structured in the 1920's)<br /><br />Satchel Paige (Maybe the best ever but we will never know)<br /><br />Warren Spahn (The most underrated pitcher of all time, better than Matty but for a crappier team)<br /><br />Greg Maddux (350 wins in our generation would probably translate to 450 had he pitched 50+ years ago)<br /><br />Honorable Mention Randy Johnson, His prime years were better than Koufax's and he has career numbers too. The most dominant pitcher in his prime I have ever seen and maybe ever will see.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Vincent</b><p><br />My two cents worth:<br />-------------------<br /><br />Christy Mathewson<br />Walter Johnson<br />Bob Feller<br />Sandy Koufax<br />Bob Gibson<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>johnson<br />young <br />mathewson<br />alexander<br />3 fingers<br /><br />all the best,<br />barry

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>1) Lefty Grove<br />2) Walter Johnson<br />3) Satchel Paige<br />4) Christy Mathewson<br />5) Grover Cleveland Alexander

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>This is subject to change, but for at least the next five minutes, my choices are:<br /><br />1. Walter Johnson<br />2. Lefty Grove<br />3. Nolan Ryan<br />4. Grover Cleveland Alexander<br />5. Warren Spahn<br /><br />Except for Johnson on top, the order is arbitrary.

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Well done Bruce.<br /><br />Rhys,<br />You convinced me to replace Carlton with Lefty grove on my own list.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Rhys brings up a good point about Maddux.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Levy</b><p>Mathewson<br />Young<br />Johnson<br />Clemens<br />Oh yeah...that Ruth guy didn't turn out too bad either

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Walter Johnson<br />Sandy Koufax<br />GC Alexander<br />Pedro Martinez<br />Lefty Grove

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Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>Fergie Jenkins<br />Greg Maddux<br />Mordecai Brown<br /><br />Warren Spahn<br />Roger Clemens<br />Nolan Ryan tied with Clemens

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Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>Walter Johnson<br />Christy Mathewson<br />Nolan Ryan<br />Lefty Grove<br />Sandy Koufax<br /><br />Looking at stats and the era that they played in..I always thought Lefty Grove put up some amazing numbers during a time when hitters were dominating the league.<br /><br />Ricky Y

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Posted By: <b>Elm</b><p>Anyone know where any good footage of Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, etc., pitching in games can be found? Either on line or on dvd's? I have the 'When It Was A Game' dvd's and they're incredible, but they feature players from much later in the 1900's.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I grew up listening to the radio, with Bob Gibson pitching for the Cardinals. He was dominant. Sandy Koufax was, too. And even though I'm a fan of both...<br /><br /><br />Johnson<br />Mathewson<br />Young<br />Grove<br />Alexander<br /><br /><br />Warren Spahn was a great pitcher... and Carl Hubbell, too. Dizzy Dean, Steve Carlton, Joe Wood and Ed Reulbach had some good years, too. And while Greg Maddux was a pretty good pitcher, I can't see how he belongs in the top 5. Maddux won the Cy Young Award; of all the pitchers in major league baseball, which one has the most career wins who did not win the Cy Young Award?

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Walter Johnson<br />Christy Mathewson<br />Satchell Paige<br />Carl Hubbell<br />Lefty Grove

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I got it, I got it. Cy Young.

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>1a) Walter Johnson<br />1b) Satchel Paige<br /><font size="-2">now i have to think ...</font><br />3) Lefty Grove<br />4) Sandy Koufax<br />5) Randy Johnson<br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>For those of you that left Grove off your lists, you ought to do two things:<br /><br />1. Read Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract; and<br /><br />2. Check out the black ink for Grove on Baseball-Reference.com, in particular the number of times Grove led his League in strikeouts and ERA. <br /><br />In my opinion, the 5 best are:<br /><br />1. Grove<br />2. Matty<br />3. Johnson (Walter, not Randy)<br />4. Koufax<br />5. Paige<br /><br><br>_ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ _ <br /><br />Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> this month as we count down 4 Magies, 2 Wagners and a Plank!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>To me, a stat that jumps out about Maddux that no one even comes close to on is base on balls. <br />Here are career base on ball stats for pitchers I have had the pleasure to see pitch in my lifetime.<br /><br />Randy Johnson - 21 yrs - career 1426 BB<br />Roger Clemens - 24 yrs - career 1580 BB<br />Tom Seaver - 20 yrs - career 1390 BB<br />Nolan Ryan - 27 yrs - career 2795 BB<br />Tom Glavine - 22 yrs - career 1469 BB<br />Steve Carlton - 24 yrs - career 1833 BB<br /><br />Greg Maddux - 23 yrs - carrer 972 BB<br />The mans control and command of the mound in todays juiced ball and steriod era<br />are unmatched. I believe another board member stated, "if he were to of pitched 50+ <br />years ago he might have 450+ wins". I agree. The guy is phenomenal.

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Posted By: <b>H Murphy</b><p>Hard to judge pitchers without seeing them in person but here goes my take.<br />1-Walter Johnson, the #`s the rep and the longevity speak for themselves<br />2-C Mathewson, much the same as above not quite as dominant<br />3-Warren Spahn, the "Stan Musial" of pitching<br />4-S Paige, the biggest "if only" pitcher in history<br />5-Steve Carlton, the best pitching career I`ve seen from start to finish<br />ADDED BONUS, my Favorite "have to win today`s game pitcher" El Tiante, Louie Tiant!

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Posted By: <b>Phil Garry</b><p>How about Babe Ruth? Although the body of work was very short, for a 5 year period (1915-1919), have there been five more dominant pitchers in baseball history? Where do you think he would rank all-time if he stuck with pitching or even split his duties 50/50?

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>T206 Collector,<br /><br />It's nice to see someone finally agreeing with me on Lefty Grove. Considering his advanced age when he broke in and the big time hitting era he played in, I'm convinced he was the best ever ... Elm, go back and look at "When It Was A Game" again. I recall some great color footage of Lefty late in his career with the Red Sox in Fenway Park. I have the DVD, and several times, I've played it on my computer and slowed down the action. The only thing more amazing than watching Lefty pitch in slow motion is seeing the footage of Ted Williams' swing slowed down. Brad, if you're reading this thread, I'm curious if you put Lefty on the top of your list since you have such an impressive collection of his cards (and you're cousins as well) ...

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Interesting list and I'm really surprised to see so many people put Nolan Ryan in their top 5. I don't think he's even top 10 myself....but it's good to see Greg Maddux getting some play here...In my opinion Maddux had a 7 year stretch during the "steroid era" that is just flat out unbelievable. From 1992 to 1998 he never had an ERA higher than 2.72 and twice his ERA was under 2.<br /><br />my list<br />Walter Johnson<br />Lefty Grove<br />Greg Maddux<br />Roger Clemens<br />Robert Feller<br /><br />*honorable mention: Dazzy Vance - it's too bad he did not learn control until he was around 30 years old or he would have won 350-400 games and would have bested Walter Johnson's career strikeout mark. He led the league in K's seven years in a row with no one even coming close to him in some years. His 1924 season is one of the most dominant in major league history. 28 wins, 262 K's and 2.16 ERA - he won the pitching triple crown and his strikeouts were more than second and third place combined.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Drug-Free: Johnson, Grove, Young, Spahn, Mathewson<br />Drug-Allowed: Johnson, Grove, Young, Clemens, Spahn<br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>John H.</b><p>1. The Big Train<br />2. Grove<br />3. Matty<br />4. Spahn<br />5. Alex<br /><br />The only one on the list that can't reasonably be argued with is Johnson. He is so clearly the best of all time that it's almost incomprehensible. The other four could easily be replaced with five or ten other worthy names but Walter stands alone.<br /><br />John

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Did Koufax have the greatest 4 consecutive years in history ? Who was better ?

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p>In order<br />1-Walter<br />2-Groves<br />3-Pedro<br />4-Alex<br />5-Sandy<br />6-Matty<br />7-Mariano<br /><br />That's five, right?<br /><br />The more I read about Feller, the more I think he belongs too. He was clocked at 107.9 MPH.

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Posted By: <b>Jimi</b><p>Nolan Ryan<br />Cy Young<br />Bob Feller<br />Roger Clemens....yuck!<br />Sandy Koufax<br><br>Jimi

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>I interpret this question as who would be the 5 pitchers in my starting rotation.<br /><br />1. Matty<br />2. Johnson<br />3. Koufax<br />4. Ryan (7 NO HITTERS)<br />5. Grove<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Long-time Brooklyn Dodgers announcer and HOFer Red Barber: "I've watched baseball for seventy five years and if I had to pick one pitcher to pitch a game for me and my life absolutely depended on it, that pitcher would be Carl Hubbell."<br />That's good enough for me. You can have your Nolan Ryans and Greg Maddux', I'll take King Carl.

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>In no particular order:<br /><br />Walter Johnson<br />Lefty Grove<br />Satchell Paige<br />Sandy Koufax<br />Nolan Ryan<br /><br />almost made the list:<br /><br />Bob Feller - would have INCREDIBLE stats if didn't miss years.<br />Christy Mathewson<br />Warren Spahn<br />Greg Maddux

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Posted By: <b>Glen V</b><p>Hard to argue that the top five in wins aren't the top five:<br /><br />W Johnson - 417 wins, 2.17 ERA<br />Matty - 373 wins, 2.13 ERA<br />Cy Young - 511 wins, 2.63 ERA<br />Alexander - 373 wins, 2.56 ERA<br />W Spahn - 363 wins, 3.09 ERA<br /><br />Honorable mention:<br /><br />Ed Walsh - 195 wins, 1.82 ERA<br />E Plank - 326 wins, 2.35 ERA<br /><br />With this being a vintage board, I can't see anyone putting a current pitcher above these guys. The only modern pitcher in the top 100 for ERA is Pedro, at 99th. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>ERA + is a better tool than ERA to compare across decades.<br /><br />Here is the top 20 career ERA+ <br /><br />Rank Player (age) Adjusted ERA+ Throws <br />1. Pedro Martinez (36) 160 R <br />2. Lefty Grove+* 148 L <br />3. Walter Johnson+ 147 R <br />4. Dan Quisenberry 146 R <br /> Ed Walsh+ 146 R <br /> Hoyt Wilhelm+ 146 R <br /> Joe Wood 146 R <br />8. Brandon Webb (29) 144 R <br />9. Roger Clemens (45) 143 R <br />10. Jim Devlin 142 R <br /> Addie Joss+ 142 R <br /> Al Spalding+ 142 R <br />13. Johan Santana* (29) 141 L <br />14. Kid Nichols+ 140 R <br />15. Randy Johnson* (44) 139 L <br /> Roy Oswalt (30) 139 R <br />17. Mordecai Brown+ 138 R <br /> Cy Young+ 138 R <br />19. John Franco* 137 L <br />20. Bruce Sutter+ 136 R <br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml</a><br /><br />Definition: ERA+ - the ratio of the league's ERA (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark) to that of the pitcher. &gt; 100 is above average and &lt; 100 is below average. lgERA / ERA <br /><br /><br />My top 5 is perfect (because I am an expert in my own opinion)<br />Pedro Martinez<br />Lefty Grove<br />Bob Gibson<br />Cy Young<br />Walter Johnson

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Walter Johnson<br />Christy Mathewson<br />Satchell Paige<br />Sandy Koufax<br />Craig Swan

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I was waiting for someone to figure out how to post the table that Brian created as I assumed that would decide who was best in comparative eras; however, obviously such a mechanism does not work perfectly as Carlos Zambrano is slotted ahead of Bob Gibson.<br /><br />That being said, my very flawed opinion which is based mostly on greatness as opposed to longevity is as follows (in alphabaetical order):<br /><br />Lefty Grove<br />Walter Johnson<br />Sandy Koufax<br />Christy Mathewson<br />Warren Spahn<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Grove<br />Johnson<br />Smokey Joe Williams...Paige said he was the best.<br />Spahn<br />Seaver<br /><br />Craig Swan...Joe?

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Jeff, I agree, ERA+ works less than perfectly...<br /><br />John Franco and Bruce Sutter, both of whom I think were really good pitchers, are ahead of"<br /><br />Alexander<br />Mathewson<br />Koufax<br />Waddell<br />Hubbell<br />Plank<br /><br /><br />Way down the list, tied with Dave Stieb and Mike Mussina, at 122, is Babe Ruth. I'd have thought Ruth would have been in the top ten after all I read about how he was the greatest ballplayer in that thread with which I stirred folks up, a few weeks ago. Good old Ed Reulbach had a 123 rating, higher than the Babe's ERA+.<br /><br /><br />I don't think ERA+ is the best way to sort out the top 5 pitchers of all time.

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Sidd Finch<br />Al Hrabosky<br />Ryne Duren<br />Mark Fydrich<br />Luis Tiant

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Posted By: <b>Mark Lutz</b><p>A word must be said on behalf of a guy who not only won 373 games but also served in WWI at the peak of his career. If you want dominant seasons, look at 1915 when he was 31-10, with a 1.22 era, 12 shutouts, and his era+ was 225. In 1916 he was 33-12, with a 1.55 era, 16 shutouts, and the +era was 170.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x318/corsairs25/e135Alexander_001.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Wil Jordan</b><p>Here are my top 5<br /><br />Sandy Koufax<br />Bob Gibson<br />Walter Johnson<br />Warren Spahn<br />Babe Ruth

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Posted By: <b>Denny Walsh</b><p>This is what makes this game so Great! Opinion's of a guy who pitch 100 years ago, as to someone I saw last year. Baseball is in my blood! I'm sure you guys & gals know what I mean!!! <br /><br />These are My 5 Best.... Honestly, it's to hard to put them in an order? Really just my humble (Now Couch potatoe, can't play anymore <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Broken Back) opinion.<br /><br />- Christy Mathewson(Carried his team for ever!) <br />- Sachel Paige(This Guy has more records that isn't recorded than are, I'm sure of it!) <br />- Walter Johnson(Can't hit what ya can't see!)<br />- Nolan Ryan(7 No~No's)<br />- Ed Walsh(Lowest Lifetime ERA 1.24, Very Impressive & He's a "Walsh" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )<br /><br />Cy Young has the most loses of any pitcher... I guess thats what turns me away from him. Sorry Cy....<br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Nice to see that he's getting some positive attention here, after I caused a brief feather-ruffling on the Greatest Pitcher thread last week by mentioning his name.<br />Seems as though some folks have been doing their homework! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />He has to be in the conversation, it's just a matter of what style you're considering. I apologize for forgetting who mentioned his walk totals up above, but the degree to which he controls the ball is insane, -not to mention the longevity, the consistency, his competitive ability during an era where the hitters capabilities increased dramatically in relation to those of the pitchers (roids), his fielding, ...he HAS to be considered.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>&lt;&lt;I was waiting for someone to figure out how to post the table that Brian created as I assumed that would decide who was best in comparative eras; however, obviously such a mechanism does not work perfectly as Carlos Zambrano is slotted ahead of Bob Gibson.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Jeff, no single stat works best. However, ERA+ does work MUCH better than just ERA. And my list of top 5 didn't follow the top 5 in ERA+, but I did use it to help frame my thinking.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Stephen Mitchell</b><p>Having seen only one of these great pitchers (Spahn) and only at end of his prime, this list will attempt to list the Greatest Pitchers of All-Time in order of greatness:<br /><br />1. Grover Cleveland Alexander... 373 wins with some so-so clubs (esp. compared with Matty) and saddled with epilepsy to boot<br />2. Bob Feller... 266 wins for just 2 pennant winners (in 18 seasons) and lost nearly 4 full years to World War II where he was a legitimate hero<br />3. Warren Spahn... Another World War II hero who won 363 National League games<br />4. Walter Johnson... The Big Train won 417 for largely so-so teams, at best<br />5. Lefty Grove... Won an even 300 but 400 would have been likely had he moved to the majors earlier<br /><br />6. Cy Young... Won an astounding 511 games but pitched so long ago that his early years cannot be considered modern baseball<br />7. Carl Hubbell... An earlier post on this topic convinced me King Carl and his 253 wins must be in the Top 10<br />8. Christy Mathewson... Like Alexander, Matty won 373 but with far superior clubs including outstanding pitchers to share the load... McGinnity, Marquard and a half dozen #2 pitchers on most clubs all made Mathewson's life infinitely easier than Ol Pete's.<br />9. Eddie Plank... Lefty won 326 in 17 seasons and ranked in his league's top ten in both wins and winning percentage 13 seasons each. Of course, like Matty he had lots of support... Waddell, Bender<br />10. Tom Seaver... The only near contemporary pitcher on the list, he won 311 with not a hint of cheating (steroids). Plus, his coining of the term Quality Start (5 innings, 3 or few earned runs) makes the first nine on this list all the better.

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Posted By: <b>Ken Wirt</b><p>I'm listing 10, cause that's how many I would carry on my roster!<br /><br />1. Walter Johnson<br />2. Sandy Koufax<br />3. Christy Matthewson<br />4. Satchel Paige<br />5. Cy Young<br />6. Bob Gibson<br />7. Grover Alexander<br />8. Lefty Grove<br />9. Bob Feller<br />10. Old Hoss Radbourne<br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan P.</b><p>Due to his accused steroid use, any list including Clemens can't be valid (or at least Clemens' selection is invalid). If he is eventually cleared, then he'd be allowed to be considered on this list. My list of the 5 greatest pitchers is (in no particular order):<br /><br />Seaver<br />Koufax<br />Gibson<br />Ryan<br />Maddux<br /><br />I started watching baseball in 1959--these are the guys I saw for most or all of their careers. If I had to pick top 5 from pre-WW II, then I go with (again in no particular order): <br /><br />Feller<br />Young<br />Mathewson<br />Johnson<br />Alexander<br /><br />Spahn and Ford from the 1945-59 era.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Brian, I agree. What good is comparing one pither's ERA from one era to a pitcher's in another era when the relative average in the league was a full two points different?

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Jeff -- exactly.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> - - I just threw that one in to see if anyone was paying attention.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ahh Craig Swan. Brings back very bittersweet memories. For some reason, I remembered him being better than his statistics indicate: Only 59 lifetime wins! The Mets were so bad that he seemed like a great pitcher in comparison I suppose.

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Posted By: <b>Scot York</b><p>You guys are all over the best pitchers list (Paige, Johnson, Alexander, etc...) I nominate Hall of Famer Amos Rusie as an honorable mention. After all they did move the pitchers mound back to the current 60 feet do to his blazing fastball.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Good point about Rusie. The day that Mathewson died, McGraw eulogized him in the newspapers by saying that he had a curve like Nap Rucker's and a fastball like Rusie's.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Speaking of curveballs, is there anyone who doesn't agree that in the modern era the best curve belonged to Bert "Be home" Blyleven? What a damn shame he is not in the Hall with all those wins for miserable teams...

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Posted By: <b>Phil Garry</b><p>Bob:<br /><br />Although he flamed out very quickly, I remember seeing Baltimore Orioles' relief pitcher, Greg Olson win AL ROY in the late 80's. I think he had the best curveball I have ever seen, better than Blyleven, even.

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>I have a VHS of the whole, entire 9 inning game footage of Nolan Ryan's 5th No-hitter in 1981 vs. Dodgers.<br /><br />Your jaw is ON THE FLOOR when watching some of Ryan's curveballs!<br /><br />Absolutely completely utterly AMAZING !!<br /><br />The pitches drops off the table making a good Dodger lineup look like little league'ers just learning to hit.<br /><br />A curveball cannot possibly be better than what Ryan displays during his 5th no-hitter !!!<br /><br />steve<br /><br />edited: When I watch it, I constantly "rewind" to see pitches over and over - cannot believe what I see !

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I hate that Blyleven has been denied entry into the Hall just because he was short a few wins of the presumed 300-win cutoff. Makes no sense. How would Don Sutton have done on Blyleven's teams?

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I believe you have to wonder about Blyleven and the Hall of Fame. He really did not pitch on alot of horrible teams; in fact, more often than not his team finished .500 or better. He started with a playoff team in Minnesota that sported two HOFers and 2 others on the cusp (Kaat and Oliva). His one full year in Texas they won over 90 games, and he then went to Pittsburgh for three years and got to a World Series (88 and 83 wins the other two years). Even his forgetable four year stop in Cleveland found them over .500 in the strike year and him hurt almost all of '82 (so it wouldn't have mattered how good or bad the team was), re-joined the Twins in time for another World Series appearance, and then played in California on another 90 win team. In short, he was not a part of a bunch of hapless, perennial cellar dwellers.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I like Bert and wish him well,his broadcasts are insightful and entertaining and he did have THE best curve ball. Still, I'd like to hear what his contemporaries think about him. You may remember, Tbob, how he was grousing and wanting out of Minnesota in '75 and flipped off the crowd at the Met. He lasted only one full year in Texas, on a good team where he pitched well, only three in Pitt, then 4 1/2 in Cleveland, same in Minny, and three with the Angels. Hired gun, or were there other reasons he traveled so much? Not that that should matter come HOF time, but he may have burned some bridges.<br />

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Posted By: <b>DaveL</b><p>Steve:<br /><br />The finest curveball pitcher that I ever saw was Dwight Gooden. Talk about jaw dropping. His talent was awesome. His career could have been so much better.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Todd, good points. But if he had gotten the extra 13 wins he needed for 300 then what? A starter's chances for the HOF shouldn't be based on the quality of the relievers he played with who may have blown some of his wins.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>I looked at this two different ways. Looking at whole careers and looking at a snapshot in time. <br /><br /><br />DOMINANT FOR AN ENTIRE CAREER<br />_____________________________<br /><br />Cy Young<br />Walter Johnson<br />Christy Mathewson<br />Satchel Paige<br />Warren Spahn<br /><br /><br /><br />DOMINANT FOR A BRIEFER TIME<br />____________________________<br /><br />Sandy Koufax (1963-66)<br />Bob Gibson (1968 Season, 17 year career but only the middle 10 were really great.)<br />Ron Guidry (1978 Season, good after that, but never like that year)<br />Doc Gooden (1985 Season, destroyed a potential all time great with drugs)<br />Pedro Martinez (1997-2003, one of the best ever for 6 innings, but you better have a bullpen)<br /><br /><br />Either way, capping it at 5 or 10 leaves out a lot of great names.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Blyleven had good or better relievers most of the time. Did the pen blow 13 leads for him over the course of 20 years? No doubt, but that can be said for every starter. My point is this notion that Blyleven toiled for scrubby teams is not very accurate.<br /><br />In Bert's first season in 1970, the Twins closer was Ron Perranoski--who won Fireman of the Year. He stayed another season and then the Twins got Wayne Granger, who also had won the award in 1970 (NL). In '73 they had Ken Sanders--he too had won the award two years prior, and in 1974-75, the Twins had Bill Soup Campbell, who would win Fireman of the Year the next two seasons. After a season in Texas, Bert pitched for a few years in front of Kent Tekulve, and when he rejoined the Twins, he got three years of Jeff Reardon. So other than a couple years with the Tribe (in one of which he won 19 games anyway, how much could the pen have cost him there?)and two with the mid 80's Twins, the closers were there for Bert. In sum, we are not looking at a guy who got robbed out of boatloads of wins because of lousy relievers; in fact, the pen may have saved more of those wins than those of other teams.

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Posted By: <b>Todd C</b><p>1. Walter Johnson<br />2. Christy Mathewson<br />3. Lefty Grove<br />4. Grover Cleveland Alexander<br />5. Satchel Paige<br />

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>whenever i see a debate on stats/Team run support et al... (such as the blyleven debate with todd and jeff) i go to bbref.com and hit the neutralized stats......try it. <br />by this account his neutralized record is 325-227 as opposed to his REAL record of 287-250.....clearly he was hurt by the teams he pitched for and the parks he pitched in. as opposed to sandy koufax who is 164-88 neutralized stats and 165-87 REAL STATS.

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Posted By: <b>Denny Walsh</b><p>Dennis,<br /> That is Amazing! I never New of that feature. Wow, I have a whole new outlook on Cy Young!!! I'm gonna play with that for a bit and see who are my new Top 5.<br /><br />Dankz Den <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dennis, where on the site is "neutralized stats?"<br /><br />Interestingly, when you look at the section which lists the players whose stats are most similar to a player's, here are Blyleven's:<br /><br />Don Sutton (914) * <br />Gaylord Perry (909) * <br />Fergie Jenkins (890) * <br />Tommy John (889) <br />Robin Roberts (876) * <br />Tom Seaver (864) * <br />Jim Kaat (854) <br />Early Wynn (844) * <br />Phil Niekro (844) * <br />Steve Carlton (840)<br /><br />All but Kaat and John are in the HOF. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>it is under the big black pitching/hitting on the far left in brown text.

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Posted By: <b>Denny Walsh</b><p>Sorry Dennis if I beat you to answering Jeffs question!<br /><br />Jeff, <br /> Right Above where the Pitchng Stats are it Says 'Neutrelizing Stats" in Red! It's the last item you can click on above there stats!<br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>Denny Walsh</b><p>You Beat me, Rats.....<br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>This website never ceases to amaze me. How about the feature that allows you to see what a pitcher did against a specific batter of their careers? Incredible stuff.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>but I'll stand by statement--the teams Bert played for were not woeful, period.<br /><br />Jeff, the neutralized stats link is right after PITCHING&gt;&gt;glossary&gt;&gt;&gt;Hide partial seasons, etc. It's highlighted in red<br /><br />I have not studied the math to any degree, but see where it "neutralizes" Bert's 1973 season for the .500 Twins to have been 26-10, rather than 20-17. This alone made me laugh, having seen him pitch more than once that season live and several more times on the tube. To suggest that his teammates and park cost him 6 games in each direction on the ledger for that season is ridiculous, IMHO. <br /><br />I want Bert in, and I think he deserves it. He did get extremely weak run support at times--I remember the 1-0 and 2-1 games, but that is not because his team was horsecrap as much as it was owing to him being a #1 who got outdueled by the other team's #1. His main beef is probably with his managers, at least while a Twin, for slotting him against the Vida Blues, Jim Palmers, etc. in their best years. But if anyone, including Bert, truly thinks he was 100 wins better than losses, as suggested by these "neutralized" stats, well, please allow me to respectfully disagee.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i love that feature! it is addicting.also try the Pythagorean won-lost percentage on the team feature. it is amazing by runs scored vs. runs allowed you can predict a teams record. last years diamond backs really were the exception!!