T206 PSA PLANK Just listed for sale! [Archive]

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03-25-2008, 09:36 AM

Posted By: Jamie BFigured I would give you t206 maniacs the link to what youve been waiting for.. wish I could afford it.. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/27tjpt" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/27tjpt</a> <img src="http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/p.jpg">

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03-25-2008, 09:41 AM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusLove to see what it looked like before it was restored.

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03-25-2008, 09:54 AM

Posted By: Trae R.Here's the scan from a Mastro auction it was sold in: <img src="http://www.t206.org/misc/mastroplank_restored_nm.jpg"> I think it went for around $15k. I don't know how to locate old listings on Mastro though. --- "There ain't much to being a ballplayer, if you're a ballplayer." -Honus Wagner

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03-25-2008, 10:03 AM

Posted By: Andrew S.If the Plank had been designated "Authentic, trimmed" instead of "restored"...what would it have realized in the Mastro auction? Higher or lower than 15K?

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03-25-2008, 10:12 AM

Posted By: Dave FAndrew- I think it would have went higher if just designated authentic. I personally don't care for authentic cards..but would have to assume if it was just labeled and authentic and the thought was it was just trimmed it would go for significantly higher than a Plank that has been "restored". Dave

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03-25-2008, 10:14 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThe known and well recognized 1st series Eddie Plank card is a Sweet Caporal 150 back with a FACTORY 25, VA. This one has a Sweet Caporal 150 Fac. 30, NY back. Unless, this is an unprecedented printing error, I am very skeptical of it ? The 2nd Series Plank is a Sweet Caporal 350 Fac. 30, NY. I question the legitimacy of this card....and, how the heck did it get by PSA ? ?

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03-25-2008, 10:16 AM

Posted By: Jamie BTeddy Z.. nice eye.. leave it to the Z-man to spoil everyones hopes of buying an authentic Plank..<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-25-2008, 10:24 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI'm with Ted that something isn't right here...was it rebacked?

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03-25-2008, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Andrew S.I'm not surprised it got by PSA because the Gretzky/McNall card got by them. This Plank card is probably from the same 1950s reprint set. Which factory is on the back of the Sweet Caporal Wagner?

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03-25-2008, 10:27 AM

Posted By: Jamie BAndrew.. whats wrong with the gretzky wagner?

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03-25-2008, 10:32 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.You need to buy it, Jamie. Your T206 set will never be considered complete without a Plank. These last three months will have been for naught.

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03-25-2008, 10:35 AM

Posted By: Mike (18colt)Jamie -- trust me on this one, but a quick search will find you a plethora of info on the infamous Gretzky Wagner and peoples' thoughts & opinions (& some facts, too). By the way, Jamie, did you get my reply yesterday? I haven't heard from you. Shoot me an e-mail either way, please. Mike (18colt)

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03-25-2008, 10:44 AM

Posted By: Jamie BMike I'll get back to you tonight on that.... Anthony .. screw the plank.. Im happy at 520.. I got my $15 old school plank reprint to act as a filler

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03-25-2008, 10:48 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorBefore the parlance was T206, collectors used to call the T206 set the 521. You have to at least get Magie or Plank to get yourself to 521. (: (Keep in mind, this from the guy who now has 15 unsigned T206 cards since he sold the rest to get his beater Plank and Magie -- and two dozen signed T206 cards.) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-25-2008, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Jamie BI hope that was a joke about 521.. I never heard of that before ... 520 is where Im trying to get and what I though most consider a complete set.. and until I get 100K.. its where Im going to stay

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03-25-2008, 11:23 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.Jamie, both Paul and I were kidding. I bought my first T206 in about 1978, when I was a kid. I still need about 7 cards to complete the set. It's not that they aren't out there, I could buy all 7 this week, I just like to always have that one set I'm pecking away at ever so slowly. Your sprint has been fun to watch.

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03-25-2008, 11:26 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...about the name of the set being called Set #521 (though Burdick referenced at the time that only "several hundred" were known. And the gold border set was known as #520, and it doesn't have 520 cards in it. All of this is from the following article, which is long but fascinating: <a href="http://www.oldbaseball.com/refs/1930s.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.oldbaseball.com/refs/1930s.htm</a> Still, I thought it sort of poetic that it was listed as Set #521.

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03-25-2008, 11:27 AM

Posted By: Anthony S.Crap. Now I have to buy that Magie back.

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03-25-2008, 11:33 AM

Posted By: JohnTed, Z good call on the back I had just placed a bid on this card. That sure is a head scratcher, perhaps the alterted part is it was re-backed???

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03-25-2008, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedIt should have been labelled....."PROFESSIONALLY RE-BACKED", not "PROFESSIONALLY RESTORED".

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03-25-2008, 11:55 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAbsolutely Ted! There isn't enough information on that label. And a rebacked card should not be slabbed under any circumstances.

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03-25-2008, 12:09 PM

Posted By: JohnTed agreed 100%, I was sort of ok with a card with touched up corners perhaps even a mild re-build on the surface etc. To me eye appeal is everything, amd having a 150 series Plank with a great image means a lot to me seeing as I'm not quite ready to drop 6 figures on one. Everybody draws the line somewhere in the sand I'm ok with a rebacked OJ, just not quite ok with a rebacked 5+ figure card, this thing truly is a Frankenplank! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/untitled%20copy_1.jpg"> How does one even get a card like this in a holder?

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03-25-2008, 12:15 PM

Posted By: Jamie Bi guess i helped saved you 10Gs... your welcome for the thread willy wonka.. now send me my golden ticket... aka t206 cy young glove showing one of the 4 i need <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-25-2008, 12:21 PM

Posted By: JohnGolden ticket on it's way, although oddly enough the res. wasn't met so I most likely wouldn't have won anyways, I never win...LOL. The real hero is Ted I would have never looked. Goes to show one can’t become too dependent on slabs and auctions, every time I give some of these guys a level of trust and blind faith I regret it, very misleading auctions both times this card was listed once beofore in Mastro and now on eBay.

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03-25-2008, 12:54 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorThis is the Plank from the April 2007 Mastro auction: <a href="http://www.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=70940" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=70940</a> Encapsulated and assessed "Authentic/Altered" by PSA. Presented is a professionally restored example of one of the most valuable cards in the hobby. The offered card would pass the scrutiny of most of the hobby's leading dealers, as only under careful examination could restoration be detected. Paper fibers of the same age and material have been added to the corners, though this is not detectable even under 10-power magnification or with a black light. Only a few tiny, spotty areas of the deep, rich blue background have been in-painted to restore continuity to the piece. The restoration was performed at the highest level of expertise and was not done with the purpose of passing the card off as completely original. The card presents apparent Excellent to Mint condition. If not restored, this certainly could claim to be one of the finest Eddie Plank cards in the hobby, having the boldest, richest image with perfect clarity. The dot patterns, seen only under magnification, are completely intact on 99.9% of the card. The Sweet Caporal ad reverse is fully unimpaired and no inpainting of text is evident under magnification. While we were not witness to the card's original state, we were informed that the card was in Very Good condition prior to restoration, with significant corner wear and very minor surface wear. Post-restoration assessments concur with this evaluation. The tale of the Plank card still perplexes our hobby nearly 90 years after it was issued. As it rode on the coattails of the famous Honus Wagner card since the beginning of the organized hobby, Jefferson Burdick didn't know of Wagner's or Plank's existence at the time of his first 1939 edition of the American Card Catalog (he listed only 521 cards in the set of T206), forever attributing to them a place of reverence among advanced collectors. No credible explanation has ever surfaced to explain its rarity. Some ascribe it to the same reasoning behind Wagner's scarcity—an aversion to tobacco smoking—but this is as unlikely for Plank as it was for Wagner. Did Plank follow suit with Wagner and demand payment for the use of his image by the tobacco companies? Possibly, but doubtful. Did the printing plate break? Not very likely. The absence of Plank's card is most evident in sophisticated hobby circles, and few high-grade examples have been seen. Coupled with the fact that the T206 "Monster" set of cigarette cards is one of the most desirable in the hobby, the scarcity of Plank only adds to a collector's frustration and fuels the fires of its value. While the value of the offered, restored version of Plank pales in comparison to an unaltered copy with a similar appearance, an unrestored card in Excellent to Mint condition could approach the $100,000 mark. This Eddie Plank card is absolutely exceptional, and affords the collector the chance to add a spectacular-"looking" key card to his or her T206 set—at a fraction of the typical cost. Our minimum bid reflects the value of the card prior to restoration and does not reflect the tremendous expense of the professional restoration (about four times our minimum bid). A one-of-a-kind opportunity!

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03-25-2008, 01:01 PM

Posted By: JohnNew cert number on the slab too....must have cracked and given a shot a re-sub to see if it could get past...

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03-25-2008, 01:09 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThis is very, very disturbing. At least they could have pasted the correct back on it. There is no excuse for this error and I am really surprised that a major auction house would promote such a card. The Surgeon General says...."Ignorance of T206 backs can be very hazardous to your pocketbook".

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03-25-2008, 01:25 PM

Posted By: Rob"we were informed that the card was in Very Good condition prior to restoration, with significant corner wear and very minor surface wear" to be able to make a card with sig. corner wear look that good is amazing. would it have been possible to tell the card was rebacked if the fac. was 25? scary Rob <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-25-2008, 01:34 PM

Posted By: peter ullmanthe colors look embellished to me...they're so vivid it almost looks fake. Are we sure the whole card wasn't restored?

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03-25-2008, 01:40 PM

Posted By: LetsGoBucsThe quality of the work shouldn't surprise anyone. Yes someone messed up with basic knowledge on the back but the rest of the card would pass mustard as my father used to say. I think its actually good to get more of these out in the open. Unfortunately, they exist....and they exist in stamps, artwork, etc. If you spend some time learning what can be done to artwork that is damaged, you'll understand that an expert can easily spend some time on a card and you'll never be able to spot the work. The main difference is that most of the great artwork sells for millions...most baseball cards (the best) sell for tens of thousands. If nothing else it should make folks pause and think if they really should pay such a premium for the extra grade or two?

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03-25-2008, 01:45 PM

Posted By: Jason LIt's from a SGC40 card I had sold a couple years ago...-would recognize it anywhere!

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03-25-2008, 01:53 PM

Posted By: JohnJason you are joking right...

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03-25-2008, 02:12 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanYou'd think that somewhere in Mastro's 4000 word description the correct words would have been used.

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03-25-2008, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)T206 Collector, Those are not the same cards. I am pretty sure that I know who owns the one that one and it is still in his collection. The one on ebay appears to have wear in the upper left corner and much wider borders than the one that you are referencing.

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03-25-2008, 02:53 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...I am surprised that Wonka bid $10,000 on this card in this auction. That's not a casual decision for most folks. You can draw lines in the sand wherever you want, but ever since this card came into the market last year I felt it was irresponsible to grade it, market it or buy it because of the appearance of impropriety and the ultra-high opportunity for fraud. It should be either destroyed or clearly marked on the card as restored. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-25-2008, 02:57 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman12K. Wonka bid 12K!!!! Hey John, I have this great bridge in Brooklyn that I think you would just LOVE. Seriously, it's perfect for you. 12K and it's yours! Walking distance to the Sloate compound as well.

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03-25-2008, 03:00 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedIf the one T206Collector linked to isn't the same one, then there are two RE-BACKED Plank cards in circulation. Check-out that Plank's back....it too, is a Sweet Cap 150 Factory 30. TED Z

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03-25-2008, 03:08 PM

Posted By: JohnDon’t be surprised Paul, I bid on this card once before in Mastro although not heavy 5k or so. I thought it would fill a hole for me and my set, I’m ok with the description that Mastro had, they made it sound as if fibers were added and it was rebuilt a bit etc. They sort of passed over the whole re-back thing but I guess the back from the other card technically had period fibers in it.LOL Seriously that was really misleading description…..shame on Mastro, but also shame on me for not catching the back factory. This card if it had the right back I would be happy to have for my placed bid on eBay it fills a hole and looks great, I’m at a cross roads when it comes to the Plank card, I need him for my set but I also really pride myself on eye appeal in my cards, so I have a very little in the way of choices. My choices are pay up to 40-50k+ for one that looks good say a VG card, which I will go for in the heritage auction…or get a filler card that looks like a dog chewed on it from 1909 till 2008 then coughed into a holder. For me I would rather have a presentable card that has been altered in some sort of fashion for 10-12k than a beater or just not have the card at all… I would also add that if given the choice of a trimmed 150 Plank with a sharp image and a VG Plank from the 350 I would take the trimmed Plank for less money with the better image, I’d save 20k and be happier… Every collector draws the line somewhere what’s the phrase that’s all the rage around here…collect what you want…

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03-25-2008, 03:09 PM

Posted By: JohnJeff is this bridge within walking distance to cock fighting? Ted there the same card.

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03-25-2008, 03:09 PM

Posted By: Jamie BI am somewhat comfused... I gather that the views from the thread are that the card is worthless.... how much should it sell for with it being rebacked.. ?

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03-25-2008, 03:16 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldTed and others - not being a T206 combo expert, I will defer to you all but is it impossible that a Plank can have a Sweet Caporal 30 2d NY back, or is it that you just have not verified an example? To me, it seems inconceivable this could be rebacked without there being some evidence of such (like wrinkling, etc). I'm reminded of when the first Wagner Piedmont's came to market. If my memory serves me correctly, only Sweet Caporal were known to exist prior so conventional thinking was the Wagner could only be found with a Sweet Caporal back.

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03-25-2008, 03:25 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorFunny thing about Lionel Carter, he had a thing for eye appeal in his cards, too. He also spent decades looking for an upgrade, but never found it. That's the beauty of his "dog-chewed" Plank. Collect what you like, sure, but this card is a fraud in my opinion. And someone paid $15K for this last April with the apparent effort to pass it off as legit, as you explained above. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-25-2008, 03:32 PM

Posted By: Jeff S.Trae's scan and the card currently offered on Ebay are the same - the link T206 Collector provided to the Mastro auction is of a different card. Trae did you grab that from the Mastro site? edited for spelling

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03-25-2008, 03:38 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedFor at least 31 years since I've returned to this hobby, there are only 2 back versions known of the T206 Eddie Plank card.. 1st series.....Sweet Caporal 150 Fac. 25, VA 2nd series.....Sweet Caporal 350 Fac. 30, NY A 3rd one with a Piedmont 150 was found on a colorless proof of Plank. If any other backs on Plank were printed by American Lithographic, we would have seen them by now. In fact Bill Heitman would have catalogued one back in 1980. Finally, the fact that this Plank is being advertised as restored, totally eliminates it from being a "new found" unique Plank (similar to the Joe Doyle error cards discovered in the 1980's).

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03-25-2008, 03:39 PM

Posted By: JohnPaul, not referring to your Plank sorry if you though I was, but rough ones in general. But fraud…..this is no different to me than a re-backed OJ, or rebuilt Just So, or perhaps even a re-colored Mayo. That was my view prior to the whole re-back factory issue Ted brought up. If in fact the corners were rebuilt and the card was touched up I was ok with that, not sure why one would need to but nonetheless ok with it. Sort of like Ted Z's white out t206 Young from reading...(sorry Ted) not thrilled but ok with it. However there are enough Planks out there to have one that has its original back, hence my bid withdrawal I’m not ok with 50% the card not being original… Also speaking of Lionel Carter, I think you are misrepresenting him on your Plank a bit; I listened to the interview with him. He doesn’t elude that he spent a lifetime searching for another Plank, he basically says he kept that one and never found a better one, not that he was cash money in hand searching for an upgrade for 40+years etc and couldn’t find one.

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03-25-2008, 03:39 PM

Posted By: Scot Reader I don't think this card has been rebacked. I wrote the following in my 2006 e-book: "Plank has been confirmed with the Piedmont 150, Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25, Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 30 and Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30 backs." Accordingly, I must have either seen Plank with SC 150/30 or been informed of its existence from a reliable hobby source. Perhaps Brian W. or Art M. can shed additional light. Scot

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03-25-2008, 03:43 PM

Posted By: JohnIf not re-backed, then I'm now confused....I wish someone would just say here's what was done sort of an before and after....think I'll put the cash towards the Heritage Plank at this point.

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03-25-2008, 03:43 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCThanks Scot... OK Wonka- get your bid back in there now! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-25-2008, 03:49 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldTed and Scot - I guess both of your responses go to my original question above. Ted, I completely understand that you have not seen one in 30+ years but if the front/back combo is possible, I don't see how this card can be dismissed so quickly as being rebacked. Again, if my memory serves me correctly, the Piedmont Plank "proof" came to light not too long ago; certainly after Bill's book. The Drum Cobb was evident it was rebacked - the back looked like it had been reattached. This Plank looks to have a flawless back - how could it have been peeled off of one card and affixed to the front of the Plank without either the front or back having any wrinkles, unevenness, etc? Again Ted, not trying to be argumentative - I freely admit I'm not a T206 expert. I am just a skeptic who always wants more proof!

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03-25-2008, 03:50 PM

Posted By: Trae R.Jeff, in my scan collection I have the card labeled as "MastroPlank_Restored_NM". I seem to remember grabbing it from their site, yes. However, as you will see here: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2rfb4k" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2rfb4k</a> My scan is from the December 2006 Auction, not the one Paul mentioned above, as April 2007. (The time stamp on my scan file is 11/18/2006) Maybe there are two of these out there? --- "There ain't much to being a ballplayer, if you're a ballplayer." -Honus Wagner

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03-25-2008, 03:52 PM

Posted By: JohnI'm too scared now I'm getting out of T206's Mike come pick up my cards I want them out of my house by night fall! I'm moving over to Pokemon!

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03-25-2008, 03:59 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorSure you weren't talking about Carter's Plank. It's never personal with you, I understand. I also didn't say he "spent a lifetime searching" as you did. When you accuse someone of misrepresentation, try to avoid making misrepresentations. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-25-2008, 04:00 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderMastro has sold 2 authentic Planks 4/28/07 for $15,508.80 12/10/05 for $50,575.40

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03-25-2008, 04:28 PM

Posted By: John"Sure you weren't talking about Carter's Plank. It's never personal with you, I understand." I apologized and said it was a general statement, what’s your problem? Paul, play the violin on someone else's clock. You can toss the word fraud around left and right on this card. You can also tell people why the way you collect is better, you can end auctions early and explain to everyone why you did it because all you collect is autographed t206's so that makes it ok. But mention the words "dog chewed" and "Plank" in the same sentence and here come the water works you need to relax, contrary to your belief there have been and are other rough Planks out there that have been sold. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/858small.jpg"> In fact for a guy who has said many times I’m not looking for buddies and one must take what ever measures to win any auction at anytime. I guess I just figured a guy with such a cutthroat attitude wouldn’t be so thin skinned. I’ll be real careful with discussing card conditions in the future. "He also spent decades looking for an upgrade, but never found it. That's the beauty of his "dog-chewed" Plank" Sorry not lifetimes just decades….yeah huge difference my bad Paul.

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03-25-2008, 04:41 PM

Posted By: Jamie BI enjoy Blood on Tuesdays.. so bottom line.. is anyone here bidding on this card.. except for willy wonka?

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03-25-2008, 04:48 PM

Posted By: AdamWhat is the value of the SGC 1.5 John just posted? Any past pricing on that specific card? (I know memory lane wants 30k for it, but they are as crazy as whoever thinks they are going to get 20k for a PSA 1 Magie, like the one recently posted on eBay).

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03-25-2008, 04:58 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPaul, is that your Plank above? Or is that Plank for sale? That's a pretty damn nice 1.5.

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03-25-2008, 05:18 PM

Posted By: JimBPaul's has "Lionel Carter Collection" on the flip. That is a very nice one. I agree. JimB

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03-25-2008, 05:50 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman"or get a filler card that looks like a dog chewed on it from 1909 till 2008 then coughed into a holder." I just read this line and laughed. Hard. Sorry, but that is a funny image.

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03-25-2008, 06:41 PM

Posted By: Trae R.I've figured out that the card shown in the scan I posted is the same card for sale on eBay. It was sold raw in the December 2006 Mastro Auction, then again in April 2007. --- "There ain't much to being a ballplayer, if you're a ballplayer." -Honus Wagner

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03-25-2008, 07:26 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorIt's funny, because you see hypocrisy in my comments, whereas I see hypocrisy in your comments. I'm not going to debate it or go into any further discussion in public. If you'd care for a further accounting, feel free to email me. I hardly have the time and inclination to start defending myself on a post about your decision to bid $10K on a bogus card. As you have done to me, I am "calling bs" on you, plain and simple. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-25-2008, 07:47 PM

Posted By: JohnPaul I apologized before if you took my general comment about Plank cards and lower condition examples as directed towards you, I’m done holding your hand on this one. I’ve said my peace and you’ve said yours. Now I’d like to get back to discussing cards or at least laughing about them, if you hate me now that’s ok too. The line is long perhaps you and the other guys I but heads with can form a book club. Hey maybe you can even blog about how much you hate me on your website, perhaps you can call Mr. Carter and see if he also doesn’t like me, heck get out a Ouija board and channel up great collectors from the past and see where they weigh in, then blog it up! As for my bids and your thoughts on calling the card bogus, once agin Paul you're right your the T206 master. After all you must be you have a webpage... Oh and by the way for a guy who only collects Autographed T206's and pre-war cards I'd be careful tossing around the bogus word too much, you might just find the sweet smell of bogus in your camp someday...if it's not there already. Until then good talk as always….

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03-25-2008, 07:52 PM

Posted By: Jamie Bwilly wonka you can throw bows with the best of em.... are you still going for the card?

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03-25-2008, 08:18 PM

Posted By: Phil BWonka- you'd better check your eggdicator. I detect some bad eggs.

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03-25-2008, 08:24 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...invite such drama, and I am not really interested. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-26-2008, 01:20 AM

Posted By: Jeff S.Yeah, but he's a wiz with the Photoshop, touche!

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03-26-2008, 03:15 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedExcuse my delayed response to your prior post. Regarding this Plank card, you asked me why I.... "dismissed so quickly as being rebacked" ? In my very 1st post (Tues. 12:14 PM), I questioned the legitimacy of this Plank card because of it's uncatalogued back; however, I did not say it was "re-backed". That term came up in subsequent posts. My first reaction upon seeing this card was its borders appear to wide. I have never seen a Plank card with such wide side borders. And, perhaps in the restoration of this card the borders were augmented. But, the presence of the Sweet Cap 150 Factory 30 back really raised an alarm. Early discussions (1970's - early '80s) with knowledgeable veterans in the hobby Bill Heitman, Irv Lerner, etc. regarding the "mystique" of the Plank card, I recall a connection being drawn to the Sweet Cap Wagner cards. As I'm sure you know, the Wagner with a Sweet Cap 150 back only exists with a Factory 25 example. So, having never seen a 150 Series Plank with other than a Factory 25 back, the consensus of opinion was that possibly Wagner and Plank were printed on the same sheet when the 150 Series was first produced. And, this very plausible situation has existed for at least 30 years since, not having any other evidence of either Wagner or Plank cards surfacing with any other Factory type back. So, that's where I'm coming from. Other's may differ, but unless you (or others) can produce an un-restored, unquestionable Plank card with a SC 150 Fac. 30 back, I stand by my contention. Prior to placing my 1st post here yesterday, I made a few phone calls to hobbyist who I felt could confirm my thoughts on this matter. And, they indeed did. So, I didn't just "jump" to a rash conclusion here. So, I felt it necessary to caution everyone about this card. To your final comment....."I am just a skeptic who always wants more proof!" Fine, but in lawyer parlance....tell me...."How do I prove a negative" ?

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03-26-2008, 06:24 AM

Posted By: JohnI really have to stop believing everything I read…..LOL just kidding Ted Z super big thanks for looking out for everyone’s best interest myself included! After reading what you said and with all the auction house practices being questioned even I was nervous there for a second…but after looking thru all of my images of cards I missed or couldn’t afford (anyone else have this folder of depression?) I found many. In fact in the 150 series all of the recent Planks offered publically for sale have had SC factory #30 2nd NY backs. Also of note all the SC 350 images I have were also Factory #30 as well, I dont even think I had a pic of a Factory #25 card.... Here’s the proof…this should put the re-back issue to bed. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/large/pLank.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/large/Plank%20PSA%207_1.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/63_3.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/e8_3.jpg">

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03-26-2008, 06:47 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedI stand corrected.....Thank you for finding these.....they are the 1st examples of SC 150 Factory 30 Plank cards I have seen. See, even an old T-Rex can learn some new things after all these years. I will have to go back to the "drawing board" on this Subject....at least I stirred up some thought-provoking stuff on this one. Best regards, TED Z

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03-26-2008, 06:52 AM

Posted By: leonNot to try to start a world war but does anyone else think the bottom of the Plank that is a PSA 3, right above this, has a really interesting looking bottom border? How do all of the other borders have a nice aged look and the middle of that bottom one looks nice and new? Maybe I am just skeptical in my old age?

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03-26-2008, 06:55 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanleon...i agree...definitely a wierd edge...you could shave with the bottom of that plank!

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03-26-2008, 07:02 AM

Posted By: JohnLeon if not mistaken that PSA 3 was sold raw in a Hunt auction I was one of the under bidders, it then later popped up in the holder weeks later and sold on ebay for quite some coin. I think the card sold in Hunt for around 12-14k raw, then fetched close to the high 20's in its question proof plastic fortress of solitude. Hope this helps...also for the record I have it on good authority that the PSA 7 has been under the knife as well....with that said I'd take that card in a heart beat and pay good money to boot easily the best Plank image I have ever seen.

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03-26-2008, 07:08 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanthat 7 is earily stunning...and a bit nauseating all at the same time!

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03-26-2008, 08:15 AM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldTed - never thought you were jumping to a rash conclusion. I wish I understood backs on the level you all do.

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03-26-2008, 08:17 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI don't think there are too many people who understand the nuances of the set better than Ted, and I know how hard he has worked to accumulate that knowledge. How about a tip of the hat to my buddy Ted Z!

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03-26-2008, 08:37 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedJohn W. has proven beyond any doubt that....."you can teach an old dinosaur (me) new tricks". JON I've sent you an email. TED Z

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03-26-2008, 08:43 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAn old dinosaur as in T-Rex? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-26-2008, 09:03 AM

Posted By: JohnTed, you can teach me much more than I you, at least we have a good driving conversation for our weekend road trip coming up! Looking forward to catching up with you, again thanks.

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03-26-2008, 09:30 AM

Posted By: JoannI have been meaning to do this, and will now that Barry has brought it up. I think that in the world of vintage card collecting Ted Z is pretty much a national treasure at this point. I know that may sound melodramatic but I've been thinking that for awhile and it is the only term I can think of that sums up what I mean. It boggles my mind to think of how much knowledge he is carrying around in his head and shares freely. I often wonder if he can pop these posts off the top of his head at the keyboard, or if he has extensive notes that he refers to before posting. Not trying to hijack the Plank thread, but I did want to toss this in after seeing Barry post similar thoughts upthread. Joann

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03-26-2008, 09:50 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI know Ted for almost 25 years now. He has a near photographic memory, so while I don't think he has all those very long lists memorized, I wouldn't be shocked if he did. I've told this story before, but when I first came into the hobby my collecting passion became 1949 Bowmans. There was something about that set that I found very compelling. My reference source was an article that Ted and Ralph Triplette wrote jointly for Baseball Cards Magazine in 1983. I was amazed that anybody could know so much about a set of baseball cards. One night I get a phone call from someone wishing to purchase a few 49B's from one of my SCD ads. Sure enough, it was Ted himself. There I was, a hobby beginner getting to speak to the author of my favorite article! I can still picture that phone call, all these years later.

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03-26-2008, 09:58 AM

Posted By: John"I can still picture that phone call, all these years later." Oh yeah Barry....what were you wearing when he called, and what was playing on the radio....

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03-26-2008, 09:59 AM

Posted By: Fred CIt would be nice if the before and after pictures were provided. Ok, we have the after picture...

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03-26-2008, 10:09 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI was wearing my thong underwear, and the Ramones "I Wanna be Sedated" was on the radio. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-26-2008, 10:15 AM

Posted By: JimB"I don't think there are too many people who understand the nuances of the set better than Ted, and I know how hard he has worked to accumulate that knowledge. How about a tip of the hat to my buddy Ted Z!" Agreed! Thanks for all your work and research Ted. JimB

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03-26-2008, 02:23 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou all are just too nice......I was the "dufus", who was the ignorant one on this extra Plank back, yet you were kind. Wow, this is a great forum of people. JOANN Barry says I have a "near photographic memory", perhaps. However, I attribute my ability to recall all this stuff to my mathematical mind. And yes, most of the time I...."can pop these posts off the top of my head at the keyboard". I really appreciate your kind words. BARRY Here is what I remember from that call I placed to you back in the Spring of '83, I demanded...... "I want your Bowman's ! ....I'll buy them all ! ....especially your Richie (Ashburn) ! ....your Duke (Snider) ! ....your Jackie (Robinson) ! ....your Satchell (Paige) ! ....how much do you want for them ! ? Ha......what movie scene is this scenario a take off on ? ? Hint, it's main characters were the "Chicago Connection" and it was cast there. TED Z

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03-26-2008, 04:14 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI can't place it, but it sounds awfully familiar. Could I get another small hint?

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03-26-2008, 04:25 PM

Posted By: Jerry RuckerWas Ray Charles in that scene?

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03-26-2008, 04:29 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBlues Brothers? Funny, I was thinking John Belushi.

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03-26-2008, 06:23 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThat scene in that fancy restaurant is a classic Belushi act....the entire movie is a classic. Some really great movies in the 1970's. Starting with The French Connection, American Graffiti, The Sting, Blazing Saddles, Jaws, The Blues Brothers. What I really remember of our first encounter (on that Tel. call), was I first asked you if your Richie Ashburn card was available. Then you made my day by telling me how much you enjoyed the 1949 Bowman set article. The Spring issue of BB Cards magazine just out and you were the first to give me feedback on it. Then Ralph and I received 100's of positive letters from all over the country. And, one "negative" letter from guess who....Keith Olberman. It was obvious to me from his remarks that he didn't bother to read the article. So I responded sarcastically, telling him to read it in its entirety. He sent me a 2nd letter with a "qualified" apology. Me-thinks he suffers from the well known "non-invented here syndrome", that affects people who are always skeptical of other's ideas....simply because they didn't think of them first. Gee, 25 years of a beautiful friendship.....Thanks for reminiscing. TED Z

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03-26-2008, 06:33 PM

Posted By: barrysloateCheers! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-26-2008, 09:04 PM

Posted By: Dan P.In John's post (3/25/08 at 2:09 pm) I recognize the handiwork on that aletered Plank photo--the work was done by Colin Clive.

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03-30-2008, 11:23 PM

Posted By: MVSNYC"...I am surprised that Wonka bid $10,000 on this card in this auction. That's not a casual decision for most folks." -Paul, the card is at almost $17K... "It should be either destroyed or clearly marked on the card as restored." -It is clearly graded "authentic/altered" by PSA.

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03-31-2008, 05:07 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...that it wouldn't sell for a lot of money. Heck, it sold for $15K in Mastro last April in the auction I pasted above. Also, obviously PSA labeled the case "Altered" -- I meant that a card like this should have the word "altered" actually written on it, like the word "reprint." In any event, if you want a further explanation of the reason for my comments on this post, feel free to email me. I am not interested in continuing them in public. ________________________ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-31-2008, 05:11 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorDUPLICATE

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03-31-2008, 07:10 AM

Posted By: Joseph ShirleyHi everyone! I am new to this forum. I am a long time stamp and coin collector, but only been into T206's for about 4 years. I have been lurking around here for about a week, and have been very impressed with the knowledgable collectors here. I will definately expand my knowledge of T206's listening to many of you here. Just wanted to post a thought about restored/altered cards. I found some of the opinions that restored cards should be removed from the market and destroyed very interesting. I do not think that will ever happen. The best way to see how this will evolve, is simply to look at the postage stamp market. That market has been around a bit longer than cards, and is an interesting study to compare too. Because stamps are printed on paper and not carboard, many have deteriated worse over the years than cards. Trimmed, reperfed, rebacked, regummed stamps are perfectly accepted in the collecting market place. However, it does require the collector to be carefull. Many dishonest dealers will sell a raw reperfed stamp as a non-reperfed stamp to an uneducated collector for a significant premium. As long as PSA labels this card as altered or restored (I do not see a significant difference), I am ok with it. As these cards get older, and Third Party graders start to run out of cards to grade, we will see more of this. It will probably follow the same pattern as their sister division PSE for stamps. More raw cards will be allowed into slabs, but will be labelled more specifically. The qualifier labels will be expanded. Slabs with altered, rebacked, trimmed, etc. will apear. In the long run I think keeping these cards available (as long as the are properly labelled) is very good for the hobby. As the supply of quality material falls behind demand, the prices of these cards will start to creep out of reach for many collectors. Many collectors will not even try to go after the monster. However, if restored cards are allowed, along with an expanded qualifier base to even the common cards; many people will remain interested in collecting. They can start to build the set or fill holes at an affordable price, and upgrading later when they are able. In reference to the Plank card, and comparing it to the stamp market. Most restored stamps only sell for about 5% to 10% of their un-altered counterpart. Super rarities, and this Plank qualifies could go as high as 35%. Assuming this card would compare to a PSA-6 or PSA-7, it does not suprise me in the least that many collectors will bid this one up. Anyway, just a thought.

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03-31-2008, 07:27 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...on the parallels between baseball cards and stamps. I think you hilighted both sides of the argument quite well. As Wonka said above, we all draw lines in the sand when we collect what we collect. The fact that I am for removing glue residue and erasing pencil marks makes me less conservative than those that find such practices as unpermissible alterations. My line in the sand has to do with adding paper, color and/or substance to a card. But I agree, as long as the card stays in the PSA holder, there should not be any fraud. To me, the major concern is what you referenced -- such a card in the wrong hands has the ability to do some major damage. Caveat emptor. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-31-2008, 10:19 AM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierHere may be an interesting question: What if this or any restored card was brought back to its original condition...rebuilt corners removed, added color removed etc.? Would you still consider it to be altered or restored? Kevin ------------- <a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.AlteredCards.com</a> - an education on doctored cards...and more.

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03-31-2008, 11:59 AM

Posted By: leonMy guess is that each person will have their own view of this subject. I remember when Mastro sold a restored Wagner. Later they sold the same card unrestored..(it had been reversed as you are saying) I don't remember the prices they sold for though. For me, if something was altered and then every bit of the altering was undone and couldn't be seen at all, then I would consider it unaltered....that's just me though...regards

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03-31-2008, 12:14 PM

Posted By: peter ullmanto me it's like every time I place a filling...the cavity(the hole in which the filling gets placed) always get's bigger. So if you undo an alteration...it is likely that the card will be worse off than prior to restoration/repair. I realize that kevin is saying you wouldn't be able to tell...in which case I guess it's fine. Now that that's crystal clear...

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03-31-2008, 01:52 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCi am with Leon, if every bit of restoration is reveresed, i would consider the card, unaltered... IF i won the Plank, i would do that very thing...have ALL of the restoration professionally removed...

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03-31-2008, 02:28 PM

Posted By: jamieI think I might bid 18,000 and see where it takes me

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03-31-2008, 03:20 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI wonder if the reserve is higher than $20K. I am shocked the reserve hasn't been triggered. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-31-2008, 03:51 PM

Posted By: dan mckee99.0 % is a terrible feedback rating.

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03-31-2008, 04:02 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorWhile I generally agree that 99% ain't great over a long stretch, here, we're talking about one bad transaction on July 5, 2004, involving a misunderstanding as to whether a car had been sold off a retail lot or not.

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03-31-2008, 04:56 PM

Posted By: jamieHey my feedback is 98.5% All my NEG feedback came as I was a buyer and the seller would make a mistake ... (and im talking about recieving broken video games and autographs of a totally different picture than what was listed in the auction). I would leave neg feedback and get one in return... so the feedback of 99% is pretty dam good when you think about all the A-holes you have to satisfy.... even the ones that screw you over

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03-31-2008, 04:59 PM

Posted By: leonMany of us deal in the pre-war vintage space, predominently. Anything below 99%, with more than a few hundred feedback, is horrible. HOwever I have seen where folks that sell less costly items (many/mostly for below $5.00) have lower feedback... best regards

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03-31-2008, 05:05 PM

Posted By: MattEbay mixes buying and selling feedback when they really should be separate for exactly this reason. Less then 99% is bad for a seller, but for a buyer, when you get ripped off and you want to let others know by leaving a neg, you get one back. You didn't do anything wrong yet you have to go another 99 positive transactions without getting ripped off to counter that one. For those of us who buy raw cards, the odds are that more than 1 in 100 times you will get scammed and as such, your feedback will be less then 99% if you're helpful enough to let others know about it at your own expense. Now, what was this thread about?

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03-31-2008, 05:40 PM

Posted By: Vanessa PhippsOk please explain why this restored card ( I thought that was taboo) is worth 15k plus? Am I mistaken or does restoration not make a card worth less? I just dont get it?

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03-31-2008, 06:44 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCvanessa, you are correct, restoration makes a card worth less...if this card was actually in this condition without restoration, it would be worth six figures

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03-31-2008, 07:00 PM

Posted By: peter ullman24,700...fair price? I think so.

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03-31-2008, 07:02 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCi think so...if i had the extra jack laying around, i would have bid on it myself.

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03-31-2008, 08:02 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorObservation: the card went up nearly $10K in about a year. Is that consistent with the increase in value of scarce pre-war cards, or is this an anamoly? Prediction: the next time we see this card it is either out of its holder or in a different holder. The temptation to turn a $25K card into $100K+ card is going to be hard to resist. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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03-31-2008, 08:04 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI'd rather spend 30K on a nice 2 than buy that altered card. And I agree with Paul that we won't be seeing that card in that holder anytime soon.

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03-31-2008, 08:34 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCas i've said before, i have NO problem if the owner has the restoration professionally reversed and then if it meets a number grade, so be it...slab it accordingly (1,2,4, ? whatever)...as long as ALL of the restoration is removed, and the original (bare) card is once again visable, i have no problem. i am obviously strongly against someone cracking it out and "trying" to pass this off as an unaltered card...

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03-31-2008, 11:44 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierPrediction: the next time we see this card it is either out of its holder or in a different holder. The temptation to turn a $25K card into $100K+ card is going to be hard to resist. I'm wondering if that's possible. The corners can more than likely be returned to normal or could fool some graders if done well enough (although I imagine this would go straight to the top grader and discovered). The added recolor may be a problem. Removing it would lead to bare areas or paper loss. If left in place it should never pass a basic inspection. From the scan it looks as though the left upper edge by the side border line was recolored. Always difficulty to tell from a scan. For those in the know, is this correct? I've successfully unrestored a similar inexpensive card (rebuilt corners but w/o recolor) rejected as trimmed. The finished card was a very gracious gift and is now on display in a 3 holder. I still consider it to be altered and here is why: From experience the paper on all sides of each rebuilt corner would have been affected during the reshaping. In other words...added stock blended to the sides to connect the corners, then slightly trimmed back. These would need to be shaped to look like vintage cuts. This is an alteration in itself since it's trimming a trimmed edge. Does this make sence? What are your thoughts? Kevin Saucier ------------------------------------- <a href="http://www.AlteredCards.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.AlteredCards.com</a> - an education on doctored cards...displays and more.

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04-01-2008, 05:52 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIt's April 1st......this card has become an APRIL FOOL's joke. And, only a FOOL would part with his money for this card.

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04-01-2008, 06:43 AM

Posted By: leonGood points. To ME if the "unaltering" isn't perfect then the card would still be altered. The previous hypothetical was based on all alterations being removed and not creating anymore while doing it.....again, just my opinion on this one...

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04-01-2008, 08:03 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanthat's kind of what my point was back a few posts, Kevin...albeit not easy to understand. I'd imagine to add to a corner you need some kind of lattice/mesh/bevel for support. Once you remove the added paper, the bevel will always be there. I can't imagine all alterations can be reversed so the change is undetectable...hence once the card is altered...to me it most likely will always be. pete ullman

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04-01-2008, 10:11 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorClick link below. Seems like the "underbidder" only went to $20,890, but that the "winner" chose to keep going until he triggered the reserve, which he did. Not exactly open market forces setting the sale price, since only one bidder was willing to move meaningfully over $20K. <a href="http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=280211764808" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=280211764808</a> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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04-01-2008, 10:23 AM

Posted By: JohnSeems pretty open market to me, the buyer had 24k to drop and the seller has 24k in pocket. The buyer obviously thinks this card is worth what he paid hence the reason he bid and won kudos to whoever he or she is. As for open market, there’s no such thing…these cards are only worth what someone is willing to pay you for them. Go try to sell Dan McKee or some of the old timers your PSA 8’s 1 of 1’s hell give you 200 bucks tops and that’s if you catch him on a good day. However Jim C may give you 10k for that same card, there is no set value for baseball cards; they are not stocks, or gold bouillon. An ounce of gold has a set value within a few dollars, but a T206 Eddie Plank restored or not doesn't, just a ballpark value….which is ironic if you think about it.

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04-01-2008, 11:28 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...turned out to be a fixed price sale, with only one person willing to pay over $20,890, as opposed to an ebay final sale. Even in the ebay context, you never know what the highest price the winner would be willing to pay would be, you only know what the second highest price would be. For me, I'm trying to figure out how much the market has moved for this particular card, which sold at auction for about $15K with juice last April. Theoretically, if the winner resold his Plank on ebay today, it should not go higher than $20,890. But I understand fully the concept that a card is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Perhaps all we have learned is that there are several more people that are interested in spending more than $15K on an Eddie Plank card than there were last year at this time. For that reason, I deduce that the market for Planks has gone up. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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04-01-2008, 11:33 AM

Posted By: peter ullmancongratulations.