Jim Crandell's personal thread [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

Archive

02-27-2008, 07:58 AM

Posted By: Steve MurraySince this post relates to Jim's concerns I thought it best to post it on his very own thread rather than further adulterate the other threads. I was going through my latest issue of SMR and a bunch of names kept popping up on the Leader Board, to-wit: Scott D. Ireland, Don Louchois, Charles M. Merkel, Peter Garcia, Donald E. Spence and even our own JimB. Now my question is: Where do all of these "Superstars" stand on your effort to "clean up the hobby"? I don't see them posting any support for your claims that there is a widespread problem with altering or doctoring of sportscards. Have you discussed these issues with them? If so are you free to let us know how they feel? Your comments would be appreciated.

Archive

02-27-2008, 08:00 AM

Posted By: Tom NievesJim, The person that has been attacking you and using the anonymous login of "AndyC88" is Eric Pugh. He apparently has forgotten that he identified himself about 11 months ago in the Verkman 1930 Goudey Ruth thread. <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1174843895/Steve" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1174843895/Steve</a> I have a screen captured image that I will post if he edits out his info before you get a chance to see it. Tom

Archive

02-27-2008, 08:04 AM

Posted By: leonThank you very much...and the facts remain. He is banned and every post I see of his will be deleted. I hate anonymous trolls.......I hope this guy is proud of himself. It's pretty darn hard to get booted from Net54 but he managed to......

Archive

02-27-2008, 08:14 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThank you Tom. Steve, I would feel like I was violating a confidence if I repeated what any of these gentleman told me in private. Broadly speaking however I think they are aware of card alteration, are concerned about it and the graders ability to stay on top of it but not willing to step up and take a stand. Jim

Archive

02-27-2008, 10:13 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellI don't post much anymore but for those who want to talk about card alterations come here first. I will try to post my thoughts on this thread so as to not enrage the few who don't like that sort of thing. Thanks for setting this up RamRam.

Archive

02-27-2008, 10:50 AM

Posted By: TFergI find the tales of the seedy side (or alleged seedy side) of the hobby/business rather interesting. As I am a noob to the current hobby/business(and message boards), I haven't heard all this information. I don't participate in these auctions and I have very little interest in pre-war stuff (with 3 cards as the exception) but it is nice to be informed as to what/who to look-out for in the future. I am not taking either side, but I like hearing from both, I'm probably in the minority.

Archive

02-27-2008, 05:15 PM

Posted By: Steve M. John (Login wonkaticket) Re: Jay Miller and Doug Allen February 26 2008, 8:08 PM Jim; I think Doug answered this awhile back as others have pointed out. Doug it’s a good thing too because I intercepted an email that Jim’s next play was answer the question or the kitten gets it! Perhaps Doug is just holding out for another Pizza party before he answers…maybe you should phrase your question a little more like this. “Dear Doug, are you a senior executive of a dishonest company that pulls fast ones on us simple folk? If so please publicly admit it for me….oh and by the way what do you want on your pie?” Man if this gets out of hand we could have another state of the hobby summit sponsored by Crandall & Dominos! And if theres no resolve in 30 mins everyone gets a free 2 liter Coke! Oh and no need to order cheesy bread, Jim will be there that's enough cheese for everyone. Jeff…too funny attention slut…my how are little troll has grown up. So there are my thoughts Jim its been a wahile since we danced...go ahead get the waterworks ready...Leon is waiting by for your attack whistle. P.S. Jim recently you stated in a thread that you just place a top all bids phone bid with these auction houses, you even said in the same line you trust these guys. So if you trust these guys to bid on your behalf with your money why the witch hunt on pressing creases the latter seems trivial at best.

Archive

02-27-2008, 06:44 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI'm still thrilled I get my own thread. The only ones that will read it are people who are interested in serious issues affecting the hobby. Steve, Not sure what all the questions are here. At this meeting Doug was Mr No Comment--not sure why he came as he would not answer the questions??? On the auction houses, I do not leave Top All Bids with certain ones. However with others I trust them. Why the witch hunt--I just think card alteration is terrible and people who do this ought to be told so. I am a forgiving sort and if people just admitted to what they had done and pledged to stop that is fine. I believe Doug has stopped but I believe he should answer for collectors the four questions I proposed.

Archive

02-27-2008, 07:38 PM

Posted By: Steve M.Jim: I merely cut and pasted Wonka's post to the other thread. Thought it belonged here on your own thread, Steve

Archive

02-27-2008, 07:46 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellSteve, Thanks for the thoughtfulness. I was hoping after not hearing anything about him in months that he had gone away but no such luck.

Archive

02-27-2008, 07:49 PM

Posted By: BrianThose hopes rarely come true Jim, for any of us.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:11 AM

Posted By: george "bulldog" adamswould feel insulted by this thread what is ramram`s problem jim is being treated like a animal that pissed on the floor and now has to stay in the garage it is just so wrong especially when the man only wants to discuss important hobby issues that the sheep want to pretend don`t exist. bulldog

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:19 AM

Posted By: ramramIn a sense, maybe he is...but...Jim needs a podium where he can make his comments without disrupting the flow of another thread and, conversely, where others have no reason to take shots at him. Kind of a win-win situation. Jim has a message, he just needs a clean location to deliver it. Rob M.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:24 AM

Posted By: barrysloateGeorge- Jim said he was thrilled to have his own thread. I don't think he's being mistreated or abused in anyway. If he has hobby issues he can state them here and others can respond. I for one agree with him that there are major problems in the industry. I don't always agree, however, with his manner of presenting them.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:29 AM

Posted By: Jim VBI don't think Jim C. is being picked on. (I don't even think that's possible. He'd never stand for it.) He has a valid opinion, with very valid questions. He expresses those opinions forcefully. He was asked, politely, not to take over someone else's thread to express those thoughts. He apologized and agreed. His manner irks some people, so his threads often become contentious. But he is a collector, first and foremost, so his opinions are valued.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:30 AM

Posted By: Dave FJim chooses to voice these problems every 30 days, and by ruining perfectly good threads to do so. I don't know why Jim just doesn't make the phone call he was invited to make to get these answers that so trouble him. Seems like that would close the fact finding case for Jim, but then he'd have to find something else to get upset about. There is nothing that can be done about any cards in the past that have been doctored. Period.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:39 AM

Posted By: Jim VBDave, I don't want to put words in Jim's mouth, but I think he feels the answers would carry more weight if they came here, rather than over a private phone call. He has more to risk here than most of us. If card altering was commonplace years ago, and many slipped by graders, it will impact his collection more than most. That's why I cut him some slack. He's asking questions that can only hurt him. I realize that although Doug did answer his initial question, that answer opened the door to other questions, which Doug basically said he wouldn't answer. I respect Jim's right to try to get the answers.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:46 AM

Posted By: AlanJim knows how influential this message board is in the hobby/industry.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:52 AM

Posted By: george "bulldog" adamsbarry i think jim was using sarcasm when he said he was thrilled maybe i am wrong. bulldog

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:58 AM

Posted By: leonWith all due respect how can you say Jim C (hi Jim) isn't out for a witch hunt? I agree that his questions deserve answers. One big issue is that even when he gets the answers he reverts back to the EXACT SAME QUESTIONS. You might want to go read the excerpts that Al C so gracefully pulled from past threads with the EXACT answers to the EXACT questions that Jim C DEMANDED again. To me that borders on badgering. It's like he has a freakin' mental block about his OWN ALTERED CARDS IN PLASTIC. If you answered a question of mine then 3 months later I demanded an answer (publicly) to the same one already answered.....then did it again, I think you would get tired of it. The second biggest issue I have with Jim C is his leading the charge from the rear. He will continue to get very little respect by not putting his proverbial money where his mouth is. Asking everyone to do things he isn't willing to do, with respect to his own altered cards, will never fly very well.....Otherwise, I do think Jim is a passionate collector and does raise some good questions. His delivery isn't very good though....best regards

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:02 AM

Posted By: leonYou underestimate Jim C's narcissism......He is always thrilled to be in the spotlight....and I think he is glad to have his own thread too..and I am glad he has one ...no worries about that.....best regards

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:02 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThank you everyone(except for Dave) for the nice comments. I am happy to have my own thread. People who don't care about hobby issues do not have to open this thread and when there is something that is important I will just post it here. Dave, I would dispute the allegation that I regularly ruin perfectly good threads. In fact, I would say it is more vice versa. I apologized twice for jumping into this one and ruining it. I'm sorry but I do not do it regularly. Jim is right on the money. Why have a private conversation where only I get the answers. I am not asking him questions that are about my collection or individual concerns I have. I am asking him quiestions about his company's policies and what they have done in the past. It is in some peoples vested interest on this board to see these questions swept under the rug and we have heard from certain of them. Their style tends to be to criticize or attack me and then change the subject(like why don't I send in my own slabbed cards for regrading). But, the truth has a funny way of coming out and I would bet that as long as Doug avoids answering the tough questions on a public forum that it will hurt his business. Heck, its hurtintg it already.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:13 AM

Posted By: Dave FOh please Jim. How forgetful you are. It took 15 seconds to find another thread you hijacked not long ago. What does your issues with Doug have to do with Jeff Lichtman's bidding status??? Here is also the link where Doug invited you to call him to discuss your problems (even said for you to get a third party on the phone) and post the results here... have you made that call yet Jim? <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1202701057/last-1202802705/Jeff+Lichtman+Bidding+Status" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1202701057/last-1202802705/Jeff+Lichtman+Bidding+Status</a>

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:15 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellIn regards to Leon's comments, I am not asking anyone to do what I will not do--have I asked anyone to break out cards and resubmit--no. Agree with me or not, my goal is to stem the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby. Also in regards to Leon's comment that he has answered my questions this is not really true. As I remember he said I don't alter cards anymore. This opens up a whole host of questions and I asked 4 specific ones here. I also think there is a question about what he is taking out of the cards. Leon's interpretaion(correct me if I am wrong Leon) is that they are tiny wrinkles. My belief by Doug's choice of words is that he has taken creases out of cards that presumably could be 1-2 inches long. Maybe Doug bcan clarify. Lastly, thank you to Leon for saying I have raised some good questions that deserve answers. I agree

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:17 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellNo Dave and if you would take the time to read you would find that 1)I admitted to recently hijacking a thread 2)This is something that should be disclosed publicly in my opinion--not on a private call--even with a witness.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:35 AM

Posted By: Jim VBLeon, You, and the rest of the board have a much longer history with Jim C. than I do. I've only been around the board about a year. In another year or two, his style may get to me also. I didn't use the term "witch hunt". I would use the term relentless. The answer that Al cited from Doug addressed issues going forward. Jim has accepted that answer but asked questions looking backward. Doug was pretty clear that he wouldn't address the past. From Al's post: "...neither myself or anyone from my firm will ever engage in the alteration of cards. We will disclose alterations that we note in items that are consigned to us and will continue to scrutinize cards submitted to us that have already been graded by an independant service. I refuse to say anything else on the subject..." I know I don't really have a dog in this fight (no cock fight jokes here.) Most of my cards are still raw. I've never sent any in to be graded. If ALL graded cards were found to be altered, I'd have to deal with 20-30 cards. Jim C. would have much bigger problems. That's why I can't figure out any ulterior motive he might have for forcing this issue. The only possibilities I can come up with are: 1)that it's personal between him and Doug/Mastro or 2)he really just wants the truth. In either case, he's risking the value of his collection. Edited to add: The issue of Jim not wanting to inspect his current cards is puzzling. If he found some that had been altered and they had come from Mastro, his argument would be much stronger.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJim, Just truth and justice--I barely know Doug Allen. PSA 8 graded card values are doing fine--the market seems to be not focusing on this controversy.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusIf ever there was an example of the adage "no good deed goes unpunished", this would be it. As I recall when Jim C first raised the issue about card alterations, he publicly asked all the major auction houses to respond to the issue. Mastro was one of the very few that did, and to this day except for Barry Sloate participates on this board more than any of its competitors. Doug Allen, as president of Mastro Auctions, point blank responded that his company no longer engages in the practice of prepping cards for grading. I don't think it takes a genius to realize that based on his remarks and by implication, they engaged in the practice previously and that a number of their auction offerings contained cards that were prepped. I also think that if its the case that PSA's and SGC's policies are not to grade such cards if they have knowledge of the prepping, that Mastro did not disclose it to them. I respectfully opine that at this point perhaps a more constructive avenue might be to thank Doug for responding and being a participant on this board, as opposed to continue to hammer him on this issue. Maybe then some other auction houses might be more willing to respond to similar inquiries and be regular participants on this board, to the benefit of all. As to the legitimate concern Jim C might have as to how many of his slabbed cards might be altered, a more efficient way to determine that than asking Doug to precisely quantify how many cards Mastro prepped would be.........

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:46 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJimVB, That edited comment you made is a very interesting question. If I resubmitted PSA-graded cards I won from Mastronet Auctions in the last five years to SGC and SGC found certain ones altered would Doug Allen refund me the current market value of the card??

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:50 AM

Posted By: Dave FJim- When you decide to place bids in the thousands of dollars on cards through ANY of the auction houses, have you ever took the time to read the disclaimer "NO RETURNS"? Why would you be so pompous as to think Mastro should owe you money on ANY of your trimmed cards? Abesolutely incredible.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:50 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCorey, Everyone knows that is your preoccupation but it is of no concern to me. I would not hold my breath waiting fot other auction houses to come on the boards. We are supposed to kiss up to Doug thinking maybe JP Cohen will come on here. You live in a dream world.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:50 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think Mastro would have the right to go back to PSA and ask for restitution first. Don't know how it would be resolved though.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:56 AM

Posted By: Dave FBarry- Any card that Jim bought from Mastro, you, Goodwin, etc should not be subjected to being the responsibility of that auction house after Jim owns the card. I've yet to see any auction house's disclaimer saying they would buy back or partially refund any card found to be altered in any way. Jim, like everyone else that bids in auctions knows the rules going in...I guess now he feels he should be owed something for whatever cards he has which are altered. It shouldn't be your responsibilty in the least.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:00 PM

Posted By: Jim VBBarry, Interesting point. Mastro would have recourse with PSA. Regardless of who altered the cards, it was PSA who graded them. What has their policy been in the past?

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:00 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDave- I've always said if the hobby is beholden to the grading services (and it is), I can't be responsible if an altered card makes its way into a holder. If it's an obviously trimmed card I will mention in my description that "it appears short, please bid accordingly." But if it is imperceptible, I hold the graders responsible. Some will agree, others disagree, but the graders have to stand behind their service.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:02 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- SGC has a strong policy that if they make a mistake they will assume responsibility for it. I'm less familiar with PSA's policy.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:04 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, You know that is not how I feel. Let me give you an example. In 1991-92 or around that time when I first sent cards in for grading I had a number of cards I bought raw that were trimmed, recolored or power erased--many I bought over five years ago. The ones where I knew where I got them(and they were still in business) I went back to them asking for a refund and I immediately got one from everyone. It is very easy to prove the card I won was in Mastronet's or any other sellers auction. Isn't it legit that if I do have an altered card among the 25,000-plus graded cards I own and it came from a certain auction house that they reimburse me for it? Especially if Dave Forman can conclusively convince the seller that the card is not legit?

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:07 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusJim C, You're expecting Doug Allen to come on this board and publicly (1) aver to altering cards, (2) quantify the number of cards altered and (3) admit to submitting such cards to SGC/PSA without proper disclosure, thereby possibly making his compnay susceptible to liability in the event claim is ever made against those grading companies from the current owners of those now-slabbed cards? And you accuse me of being the one who lives in a dream world?

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:08 PM

Posted By: Dave FJim, Wouldn't that be swell if you could get reimbursed? As I said...the speed bump in your way is the disclaimer that each auction house carries saying sold as is. That isn't just Doug Allen's stance, that is every auction house I know of. I would agree there there is a high percentage of your PSA slabbed pre-war cards that are more than likely altered, but as long as they were slabbed then it isn't Doug's fault. Is it?

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:12 PM

Posted By: shane leonard"Steve, I would feel like I was violating a confidence if I repeated what any of these gentleman told me in private." Jim, You know I like you, so please don't take this wrong. However, how is it that you can rake over the coals all these dealers and collectors by expecting them to tell you their private conversations or business practices on a open forum when you can't inform us the thoughts of Spence or Luchious? I see you all the time demanding what the conversation was between one collector to another or better yet telling another collector to call you privately to discuss their conversations. I feel you use a lot of us collectors to gain information or find cards for you, but you don't do the same for us. Respectfully, Shane Leonard

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:14 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, You are being ridiculous. There is an excellent chance if any major buyer went to an auction house and had concrete proof that a card that was sold to him was altered the auction house would make him whole. You have never seen my cards and have no idea the circumstances under which they were bought but having never had an original thought on these boards you make some wild claim.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:21 PM

Posted By: Dave FJim- I don't know the circumstances under which your cards were bought? Your right, maybe i'm missing something. Jim, I'd like to know which major auction houses have crossed through the rule of "no returns" for you. Please educate me.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:23 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellShane, You think its morally right that if another major collector tells me something in confidence that I disclose it on the boards? I am asking dealers to state their business practices--can you site an example where I asked a dealer or collector to repeat a private conversation publicly? I know you are close to Brian and I like Brian too and I think he would tell you we have done a lot of business together. I disagreed with his decision not to answer my questions in a public setting but he made a decision to do what was best for his business. I like you too Shane and look forward to doing more transactions together. Jim

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:31 PM

Posted By: leonFirst of all isn't it nice that you have your own thread to argue your points in? I am not being sarcastic as I think it's great. I also think you are dead wrong that an auction house will make you whole on a graded card that you bought from them that turns out to be altered. That would be the same as going to ebay to be made whole on the same situation. Auction houses, like ebay, are only a venue. Your recourse is with who got paid to grade it, which is the grading company itself. I am quite sure every single auction house has a rule about this issue and it protects them as it should. They aren't the one who made the mistake (unless there is an extraordinary situation and that is not what we are talking about). regards

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:32 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, Superior, Andy Madec, Steve Novella. Others in private sales. Don't think there was a dealer that would not reimburse me for the card even though it had been years. Of course I did a lot of business with these guys and reimbursing me for a few cards was a rounding error. Problem was more came from Spivack & Kraut and The Best of Baseball than anywhere else and the were out of business when I came around looking for them.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:38 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon, Thank you--glad we stumbled on a situation that works for all. This is why I disagree with you. For sake of argument lets say I did $250K of business with XYZ Auction House and I bought a card for $10K that is a PSA 8. I then take it in to show Dave Forman--he looks at it and says this is beyond the shadow of a doubt a trimmed card. The president of the auction house comes to SGC listens to Dave and agrees. So that I will keep doing business in the future with him he writes me a check for $10K. Then he goes to PSA and attempts to get a refund. I would maintain that an auction house would likely do that under these circumstances and that it is a good decision to do it. But I may be wrong?

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:43 PM

Posted By: leonI agree with your analogy but it's called customer service and is not a requirement. I do it all of the time in business for my best customers. It's called "eating" something to keep the customer happy. If you bought 200k from me and you had a 1k issue with a card of course I am going to refund you...I want you as a customer....But really your recourse should be back to who graded it. Just my opinion.....btw, I think all major auction houses have this policy and most all of them would make an exception for their best customers...but again, those are exceptions in order to keep their best customer their best customers <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ....regards

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:43 PM

Posted By: martindl Jim C, I'm confused by some of your seemly contradictory statements/questions. You said "my goal is to stem the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby". Seems reasonable and a good cause. Doug Allen has stated that Mastronet no longer prepares cards for grading. Now you want Doug to state how many cards they did prepare for grading when that was their practice. How would knowing that help stem the flow of new cards? Surely, If Mastronet no longer prepares cards then they have nothing to do with NEWLY altered cards.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:45 PM

Posted By: shane leonardJim, I could show you examples of where you have asked other collectors to share information that was with another collector. Heck, you have asked me to share with you things that were private conversations. And I did do that, because I felt you needed to know. You mentioned this statement, "You think its morally right that if another major collector tells me something in confidence that I disclose it on the boards?" I will answer your question. Yes, I do think it is morally wrong to discuss what a COLLECTOR specifically says to you in private and you share it on an open board. However, you could have answered the question this way," one of the MAJOR collectors told me that....." My question is there a moral difference if it is a major collector vs. a lower level collector? These reoccuring questions that you have for Doug Allen regarding things that you don't like about Mastro or their practices. Why not call them up and ask them face to face instead of calling them out on the mat every other week on an open forum? My collection is no where near yours and I certainly have lost a little confidence with PSA and some of the auction houses that I used to do business with. If I had invested the time and money into my collection like yours, I would feel like I am owed. I just don't think I would expect it on an open forum like you request. Regards, Shane Leonard

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:48 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon--we agree 100 percent. You just said it better. Martindl, Thats a good point. I am trying to get at the character of the guy though and asking did he know when he was altering the cards if it directly violated the policies of SGC and PSA...and I did have some follow-ups which related to present preactices.

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:52 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellShane, E-mail me at home--I will try to help. I thought I conveyed their overall feeling but perhaps not well. Also remember that I don't talk to all of them--there is quite a lot of competition for certain cards. I am interested in answers for the hobby from Doug Allen--not for me--just think its appropriate he answer questions about firms past and current policies publicly. Jim

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:59 PM

Posted By: shane leonardPSA will refund money back to you if they incorrectly graded a card that was trimmed. I have found two cards in my collection and Joe made good on it. I see your point about spending $200K and a company giving you a $10K refund on a card that was messed up. I think this is wise for a company to refund the money. If PSA or SGC guarantees their product, why not go directly to them instead of the auction house? For customer service issues, I would be glad to handle that for all of our clients, not just the big ones. Shane

Archive

02-28-2008, 12:59 PM

Posted By: Dave FI see now Jim. This is for the better of the hobby. Its not for your own personal benefit correct? I just need to spend $200k with an auction house and then I can sit back with a sigh of relief that if one 10k card comes up to be altered I can get that 10k back. That works great than for you and the other MAJOR collectors doesn't it? But if I spend $1500 in the auction house on one card then I fall in the boat of going by the disclaimer. I'm pulling for you Jim, clean up the "hobby" for all the MAJOR collectors.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaMy whole problem with Jim's stance is that if he doesn't care whether the cards in his collection are altered (and we know that for a fact since he sent them in for half grade bumps on the condition that any card found to be "not right" was to be returned as is) then why does he care about future cards being altered? An altered card is an altered card whether he owns it now or in the future. The whole issue really doesn't affect me one way or the other....To me it's sort of like the tree falling in the forest. If a card is altered and nobody can tell, was it really altered?

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:10 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, Give me a break! You asked me for specific examples of dealer names--I gave them to you. You asked me how exactly would return cards--I told you. Do I want to get rid of card alteration which hurts us all--of course.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:10 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusLeon, I actually think the issue of the legal obligation of an auction house to accept the return of a slabbed altered card might be a bit more involved than you think. Peter S and I had a spirited exchange on this question in a thread last year. To make my point let me give an extreme example-Coaches Corner. In my view they would be found to have fraudulently sold those autographs with Morales' authentication. Under the reasonable person standard, they should have known the authenticator was not qualified to render the opinion and they should have sought a second opinion from a recognized authenticator before selling the item. Now let's jump to case of slabbed cards. Just as in the case of the incompetent autograph authenticator, I would make the argument that grading companies in the very early days of grading were not adequately qualified to detect alterations. The issue had not yet received prominance (so therefore they weren't necesarily looking for it) and the alterers were probably way ahead of the grading companies in their ability to get things by. Therefore, it's my view (which admitedly is probably a minority view) that unless an auction house (1) discloses that a statistically significant percentage of slabbed cards from certain issues are believed to be altered, (2) performs its own inspection on slabbed cards using the latest technology and performed by people with appropriate expertise, or (3) resubmits the card to the grading company for the purpose of checking for alterations, a good faith purchaser of a slabbed altered card would have a colorable legal claim against the auction house. The basis would be that under the reasonable person standard the auction house should have known of the risk of alteration and taken steps (e.g., disclosure, inspection and/or resubmittal) to protect its good faith bidders. I might add that I have discussed this point from the legal perspective. From the business perspective, I agree with Jim C that an auction house (for their good customers at least) would irrespective of any legal obligation accept the return and then seek restitution from the grading company.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:13 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, Just to make it clear, that is the case with everyone that resubmits--your card goes up in grade to an 8.5 or as I told Joe--hopefully some 9s-- or it is returned to you.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:15 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellCorey, That was an interesting, thoughtful post.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:16 PM

Posted By: Dave FJim- It all boils down to your just *issing in the wind. Each time you bring this up, does/has it got you anywhere? Is Doug going to magically decide to open up Mastro's books the 34th time you ask to be let in on this private information? It just gets really repetitive Jim, and yes, its each time Doug's name is brought up with anything...you immediately start up again. You can take this anyway you want to (I know you will). I'm just saying you may as well let the issue die at this point. And no I'm not trying to be hard on you Jim...I'd still just as likely be willing to grab dinner with you when your in Alpharetta at some point...I just feel like we wouldn't get through the appetizer without Doug's name being brought up. Dave

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:22 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, would you send them to PSA for the bump if the cards were subject to being cracked out if found to be altered?

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:23 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, Aha--this is why it is different this time--I have my own thread. You have my word I will not bring up Doug's name on any other thread except my own. And if you are sick of hearing about this you don't have to open my thread. And I still will buy you dinner in Alpharetta and you will see I can talk about a lot of different things.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:32 PM

Posted By: JohnCarrying weight….I agree. Am I the only one who finds it odd that a person so openly outraged by altered cards wont even start cleaning house with his own collection. If this so called 15% number of graded cards is altered then one would stand to think that Jim has quite a few cards that may be altered. Wanting to make changes to any system or business takes sacrifice, passion and a complete dedication to your cause and mission. Not addressing issues in your own camp, with your own collection certainly does say to me or anyone else that Jim really doesn't want to make a change. Think about it folks, Jim isn’t broke he has tons of coin in these cards and these grading companies/auction houses opinions and practices. What better way to get answers than to step up point out major issues within in your own collections and hold the people responsible in a court of law. If that’s a little to extreme hit the press (TV, papers, magazines etc.) we all witnessed first hand the press this recent Mantle/SGC issue received. Imagine the headline on this story…”Passionate collector’s dreams/investments destroyed due to shady and unsavory business practices by major auction houses and leading grading companies…” It may sound a bit cliché but making the world a better place really does start at home. To be blunt with Jim it’s really a case of man up or go away quietly.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:36 PM

Posted By: John“Agree with me or not, my goal is to stem the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby.” Translation: So that the mess I stir up doesn’t effect the value of my cards that I will sell one day back into the hobby. The very same hobby I’m trying to hold everyone else responsible for cleaning up.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:38 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim is like the cop out busting the pot smoking hippies, meanwhile his kid is at home smoking a doobie in the laundry room.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:39 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, Have no plans to sell my cards now or ever--but don't let the facts get in the way.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:42 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, Did not read your previous attack but wish you would go away quietly--you never have anything positive to add--just snide comments so please stay off my thread.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:43 PM

Posted By: JohnSo your cards will never be sold ever Jim? So then what do you care if they are altered value really is nothing at this point. Fact is someday Jim your cards will be sold, and if your sitting on tons of high grade cards that are altered they will end right back up in the very hobby you're on your soapbox pointing out issues with. Then I guess your altered cards will be someone else's problem...which makes it a bit better for you....

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:48 PM

Posted By: JohnIt may be your thread Jim..but not your board. I’ll take my cues from the moderators on where I post and don’t post Jim but thanks for the advice. Actually Jim, if you would read my posts above I think I made a few valid points, perhaps ones you don’t like but valid points nonetheless.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:52 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI am going to be tenacious with this question...just as tenacious as Jim is when he's questioning someone. Jim, would you send your cards in to PSA for the bump if you knew they were going to crack open cards they found to be altered?

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:54 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, In my opinion you have never made valid points--your sole purpose is to try to insult, ridicule and embarass and I would appreciate it if could leave this thread to the discussion of serious issues and take your Jim Crandell bashing somewhere else.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:56 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellEDan, Not sure--would have to think about that. Probably yes...as I do not think would affect that many of my cards.

Archive

02-28-2008, 01:57 PM

Posted By: leonI am no lawyer but I do watch Judge Judy when I can so I at least have that going for me. I do have to respectfully disagree with you. As you start your case you say "I would make the argument that grading companies in the very early days of grading were not adequately qualified to detect alterations." Stop right there. If they weren't adequately qualified to detect alterations then they shouldn't be in business. I doubt a judge would say an authenticating company didn't know how to authenticate, charges customers to authenticate, then isn't liable for authenticating. I do agree that an auction house should use best judgement all of the time but I still don't agree with your first premise. I don't know what the legal term is but "motion to suppress denied". (that's the only term I remember <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>)......take care

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:07 PM

Posted By: JohnJim; I’ve been told you’re a smart guy…but I have to wonder. Pointing out what I see to be inconsistencies in your posts and way of thinking is what a discussion board is all about. I’m not sure how you seem to feel these are just attacks. Is there some mild venom in my post directed toward you I wont deny that, and for the record you're no Boy Scout. Do I take shots at you? Sure do and here's why, partly because you’re a big target and you bring it on yourself. I’ll also go on a limb and say you crave it, in fact I would say your more thrilled about having your own thread drawing attention to you and that excites you more than cleaning up the hobby or chatting with Doug Allen or whoever. Do you take shots at me and others yes you do. So get over it read what I’m asking you and or pointing out, and respond without a burying your head in the sad sand. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/head_up_ass.jpg">

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:08 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, you are a PSA hall of famer so I'm certain that PSA would make an exception for you when you send all your cards in for the bump and look for alterations. IMO that is putting your money where your mouth is and will help you in your efforts to clean up the hobby more than anything else you can do. You may take a hit in your wallet and your registry, but you will walk on water when you talk about cleaning up the hobby.

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:14 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusLeon, I said: I would make the argument that grading companies in the very early days of grading were not adequately qualified to detect alterations." You said: "Stop right there. If they weren't adequately qualified to detect alterations then they shouldn't be in business. I doubt a judge would say an authenticating company didn't know how to authenticate, charges customers to authenticate, then isn't liable for authenticating." I say: 1. If they were adequately qualified to detect alterations, then why is everybody so concerned about graded cards from certain issues being altered and why in fact have so many of such cards been found to be altered? 2. Who said the grading company isn't liable? I agree they would be. The issue I was addressing was whether the auction house would be liable also.

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:30 PM

Posted By: Alan ElefsonJim- No one on this board (or any serious vintage collector) will ever take you seriously unless you do exactly as Wonka suggested in his first post on this thread. If you were to have your entire collection reviewed and a certain percentage was found to be altered, I would love to see PSA's response. That act alone would serve to clean up our hobby/business a thousand times more so than the constant harranguing of Mastro by yourself on this board. To paraphrase what Wonka said, if the press were to learn that your collection (I am not sure of the dollar figure, but I am guessing it is quite high) has altered cards that were graded by "professional" grading companies and those companies will not admit to their mistakes, the uproar will reverberate through the collecting community until PSA (and other grading companies) change their practice. This would also stem the flow of newly altered cards (an area you say you are most concerned with) as grading companies would be forced to improve their practices or risk having to pay up for their mistakes. The only thing that might hold you back is the discovery of altered cards in your collection, and the possibility that you will not be made whole on cards that were incorrectly graded. If you are not willing to accept this risk, please stop saying you are doing this on behalf of the entire hobby/business. You are only doing it for your own gains. If that is the case, fine, but please do not continue to post claiming you are fixing things for all of us. Alan Elefson aelefson@hotmail.com

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:35 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think Jim's thread will easily pass 100 posts, quite soon at that.

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:41 PM

Posted By: leonyou said: "I say: 1. If they were adequately qualified to detect alterations, then why is everybody so concerned about graded cards from certain issues being altered and why in fact have so many of such cards been found to be altered? 2. Who said the grading company isn't liable? I agree they would be. The issue I was addressing was whether the auction house would be liable also." To address question 1. This statement has no connection with the liability of the auction house, imo. It's more a testament to the fact that mistakes have been made....not by the auction houses but by the authenticator(s). Regardless of this statment I still say if they aren't qualified then they shouldn't be in business and ARE SOLELY liable for their actions. To address question 2. Almost every auction house has a disclaimer that you agree to abide by when signing up to bid. If you don't agree with it then you don't bid. If you sign then you are waiving your right for liability where the venue is concerned. Maybe I am off base here but that would be my thought process. I signed.....so I abide... take care

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:42 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellSorry Dan, Alan--not going to do it--if that makes you think the less of me fine--I have addressed this issue hundreds of times. Not one major collector or even mid-sized collector has done this and I am not doing it.

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:44 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, It will eventually get into the thousands!? as almost every time I post it will be on this as I stay off others. I just wish others would not come on here to ridicule or attack me--thats the purpose of having my own thread.

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:48 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaOkay. Thanks for answering Jim. I know you've answered the question a million times so I'll ask it again in about 9 months. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> <-----------Winking smiley

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Alan ElefsonJim- I understand (and am doing my best to respect) your feelings on the matter, but please also try and do the same for those of us who disagree with you. Alan Elefson aelefson@hotmail.com

Archive

02-28-2008, 02:51 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThis thread is going to be controversial no matter how you slice it. But I agree we could do without the personal attacks. I do think the grading companies have to take the onus of the responsibility if a card is misgraded, and not the auction house. There's nothing wrong with a little good will on the part of the seller, but the issue isn't always black and white. How many times have the grading companies disagreed, where one company deems a card trimmed and the other one gives it a numerical grade? It might become really difficult to objectively determine who got it right and who was wrong.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:04 PM

Posted By: CoreyRShanus"To address question 1. This statement has no connection with the liability of the auction house, imo. It's more a testament to the fact that mistakes have been made....not by the auction houses but by the authenticator(s). Regardless of this statment I still say if they aren't qualified then they shouldn't be in business and ARE SOLELY liable for their actions." It has everything to do with the liability of the auction house, which is predicated on them reasonably being expected to know grading companies were not qualified in the early years, thus creating a current duty to either disclose, inspect or resubmit. "To address question 2. Almost every auction house has a disclaimer that you agree to abide by when signing up to bid. If you don't agree with it then you don't bid. If you sign then you are waiving your right for liability where the venue is concerned. Maybe I am off base here but that would be my thought process." Respectfully, I do think you're off base here. By that reasoning, Coaches Corner has no liability for all the bogus autographs they've sold. I have a big problem with that one. Disclaimers are all well and good but IMO the law still would require an auction house to either (1) disclose info it had that it reasonably should be expected to know its good faith bidders do not have, which info is material to the decision whether and how high to bid, or (2) take reasonable actions to protect its good faith bidders, in the absence of which those bidders would be incurring risks they reasonably did not expect to incur.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Anthony N.I would like to point out that before Jim's thread over a year ago it was not common knowledge that Mastro did work on cards, and thanks to his efforts Doug said they no longer do so. Whether you like his methods or not, Jim has brought about some change and certainly does bring some thought provoking topics to the board. Since he's agreed not to hijack other threads perhaps the same courtesy could be extended to him on this one.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:13 PM

Posted By: leonWe are going to politely agree to disagree on these matters. You never answered my question pertaining to signing the terms and conditions with the auction houses either. As a lawyer you have to agree that if you sign the terms and conditions, and are legally allowed to sign, then you are taking responsibility for what it says and agree to it?.......take care

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:16 PM

Posted By: barrysloateCoaches Corner unquestionably knows they are selling bad material. The controversy surrounding their business certainly hasn't escaped them. When I sell a graded card I assume it was done right. Not all are, but I have to go by that premise if visually a card looks okay. But to say it's understood that the grading companies got it wrong rather often in the early days doesn't get them off the hook; and it doesn't obligate an auction house to question all early certs either.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:19 PM

Posted By: DDHi Jim, I don't mean to hijack your thread but I have a comment related to a statement above. It's one thing to have a policy that is acceptable to both buyer and seller. When the seller is intentionally misleading his customers, I don't think they can hide behind it.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:22 PM

Posted By: CoreyRShanusLeon, First, what is in the terms and conditions that specifically absolves the auction house of disclosing material info about a lot that its bidders would not otherwise be expected to know? Second, EVEN IF there is such language, that does not mean it would necessarily be enforceable. The law will not enforce certain contract language that is deemed to be against public policy, and I would strenuously argue that any language that gives an auction house free reign to commit fraud would be unenforceable.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:28 PM

Posted By: leonLets forget about Coaches Corner for a minute as they have too many issues to be taken seriously at this point. I was going to let this go but your last statement has me going. Who says an auction company has free reign to commit fraud? By selling a graded card from a professional grading company they are committing fraud? That's crazy.. With everything we know I still don't think auction houses have a legal obligation to question professionally graded cards....Sorry, I can't buy that one... No way do I think you would win this in court either.....even though you do write extremely well. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>...take care

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:34 PM

Posted By: CoreyRShanus"When I sell a graded card I assume it was done right." Point is maybe you shouldn't make that assumption, at least with certain issues. What would be the big deal of adding a disclosure to the effect: "a statistically significant number of graded cards from certain issues have in fact been altered and all bidders buy such cards at their own risk"? The only reason an auction house would not want to make such a disclosure is because it might lower the price the card sells for, thereby indicating that the auction house was in fact concerned it was imparting new material info to its bidders.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:48 PM

Posted By: CoreyRShanus"Lets forget about Coaches Corner for a minute as they have too many issues to be taken seriously at this point." Sorry, but can't. When you're making a point you have to look at the implications of where that might take you, and IMO the implications of your point on this issue could absolve CC. "I was going to let this go but your last statement has me going. Who says an auction company has free reign to commit fraud? By selling a graded card from a professional grading company they are committing fraud? That's crazy." Where do I say selling a graded card from a professional grading company is fraud? What I'm saying is that selling such a card from certain issues WITHOUT either disclosing the risk of alteration, inspecting it to confirm it was not altered, or resubmitting it only as regards to the alteration issue could be found to be a fraudulent action. Disclosure is SO easy to make (see my post to Barry). WHY not make it other than out of concern you will realize less for your consignor, at which point you've just given support to the fraudulent allegation.

Archive

02-28-2008, 03:53 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHow would an auction house define a statistically significant number? That could be enough to scare anybody away.

Archive

02-28-2008, 04:21 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesOnce I pay off Leon for some cards.....Iam going getting my new piano and WILL spend worthy time to my life. COntinuos bashing is silly. I hope some here find some new purposes in life because cards are not always fun while they should be.

Archive

02-28-2008, 04:30 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth"Point is maybe you shouldn't make that assumption, at least with certain issues. What would be the big deal of adding a disclosure to the effect: "a statistically significant number of graded cards from certain issues have in fact been altered and all bidders buy such cards at their own risk"? The only reason an auction house would not want to make such a disclosure is because it might lower the price the card sells for, thereby indicating that the auction house was in fact concerned it was imparting new material info to its bidders." Or the other reason is that is an absurd disclosure to make. Where are these statistics you are referring to? Have PSA, SGC and GAI published the number of cards they have bought back? All you have is a grading company issuing an opinion on the condition of a card and applying whatever their criteria and assuming the associated liability, deciding to place a numerical grade on the card. Judging an encapsulated card as altered is also nothing more than an opinion, and in many cases one that is even more subject to error. There are statistics for how many cards are graded but none for those bought back or for those where an unspecified number of people have opined about the originality and authenticity of a card once encapsulated. If the day comes where dealers have to start to give an outside opinion (and guarantee) on the opinion asserted by a grading company then there is really no point in having cards graded. Wouldn't this be like having a publicly traded company have an audit by a CPA firm and then have them hire another CPA firm to have them audit the audit process? Where do you stop? A bit silly, really.

Archive

02-28-2008, 05:20 PM

Posted By: MikeU"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 3:38 PM Leon, Thank you--glad we stumbled on a situation that works for all. This is why I disagree with you. For sake of argument lets say I did $250K of business with XYZ Auction House and I bought a card for $10K that is a PSA 8. I then take it in to show Dave Forman--he looks at it and says this is beyond the shadow of a doubt a trimmed card. The president of the auction house comes to SGC listens to Dave and agrees. So that I will keep doing business in the future with him he writes me a check for $10K. Then he goes to PSA and attempts to get a refund. I would maintain that an auction house would likely do that under these circumstances and that it is a good decision to do it. But I may be wrong?" Truth be said, if you were my client, I would write you the check. It would be that simple. Likey, I would be very dissapointed that you feel comfortable in transfering the burden of responsibility from the guilty party to an innocent bystander. As a big client, I probably would not even make you aware of this feeling, as every customer is managed uniquely and I would take this into account. Since you are not my client, I can tell you I think it is complete BS that you would go after the auction company soley and leave the problem with the grader to them. If you truly believe this, you are absolutely full of *hit when you talk about caring about cleaning up the hobby from a utilitarian perspective.

Archive

02-28-2008, 05:47 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell"Before Jim's thread over a year ago it was not common knowledge that Mastro did work on cards and thanks to his efforts Doug said they no longer do so........Jim has brought about change and certainly does bring some thought provoking topics to the board". Thank you Anthony--I think you are one of the few to acknowledge that yet confronted with 1)a guy who admitted he takes creases out of cards and 2)a guy who got it out of him that he did this is totally iognored by the likes of Wonka, BoxingCardGuy, Dave from Alpharetta, Corey and others who ignore this and say I should (not anyone else)put my net worth at risk by having my collection regraded. Corey at least makes coherent arguments--the others act like I am the bad guy and are just outright crappy to me. Then you have others who used to be my friends like Al that just fawns over Doug Allen and acts offended that I am actually questioning him on his business and Marc who I used to think was a smart guy but is proving not to be. I say BS--I should get the congratulations and appreciation of people for bringing this to light. If others tried as hard to push dealers/auction houses to disclose their policies and push them to be a more honest, transparent company instead of mocking those of us that are trying to effect change the hobby would be a better place.

Archive

02-28-2008, 05:52 PM

Posted By: Jim VBMike, <> Don't lose sight of the fact that in this case, Jim "suspects" that the auction house had a little something to do with the alterations. That's what makes the lines a little blurry.

Archive

02-28-2008, 05:53 PM

Posted By: Dave F"Thank you Anthony--I think you are one of the few to acknowledge that yet confronted with 1)a guy who admitted he takes creases out of cards and 2)a guy who got it out of him that he did this is totally iognored by the likes of Wonka, BoxingCardGuy, Dave from Alpharetta, Corey and others who ignore this and say I should (not anyone else)put my net worth at risk by having my collection regraded. Corey at least makes coherent arguments--the others act like I am the bad guy and are just outright crappy to me." Well Jim, I knew you wouldn't make it too long before you pulled the ever so familiar "others are crappy to me". It continues to be amazing how you can dish it out and keep hitting Doug in the fanny with a bbgun, but let the flood waters come down if someone acts "crappy to you". Really Jim, same ol, same ol Dave

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:02 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellMike, I don't get your point. XYZ dealer sells me what he and independent grader agree is a bad card. I ask dealer for refund and he agrees. Are you saying it is now my responsibility to go back to the original grading company? I disagree--I think it is the responsibility of the dealer who sold me the bad card in the first place. Jim

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:07 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldI think Jim is right about that last post there... if the seller agrees that the card isn't what it was supposed to be, then the seller get the card back. The seller's recourse is with the person from whom he got the card.

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:21 PM

Posted By: BcDsome of your missive above are logical and reasonable. However,often you give praise to bad people in the hobby and condemn some of the good ones.You have not been in this hobby long enough to know what they have done apparently and how some of them continue to do these things just with more sophisticated methods than,oh let's say 23 years ago. I assure you that some of the folks you trust do things you constantly protest which is why I have ridiculed you about having your collection re-evaluated. After considering what I think is your attempt to do damage control from here on out I agree with you now and would not have your collection (if mine) reslabed either.I however would never deny the probability you have restored and trimmed cards in your collection! Anyway,I apologize Jim for giving it to you about the reslabing of your cards and will no longer dispute you on that issue. Please except my apology~ On another note you state Wonka ridicules,tries to embarrass ET and I just want to tell you he is pretty good at it! Go look at some of his photoshop work! Come on Jim,you got to admit that some of those photos are pretty funny as well. BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:21 PM

Posted By: MikeU"Sorry Dan, Alan--not going to do it--if that makes you think the less of me fine--I have addressed this issue hundreds of times. Not one major collector or even mid-sized collector has done this and I am not doing it." For cleaning up the hobby - one needs a leader, not a follower. If you actually did this Jim, your number of naysayers would go to zero, guaranteed!

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:21 PM

Posted By: Jason La syndicated re-run. Now, if you ever want to debate card altering and the associated politics, and listen to countless people demand that Jim Crandell submit his entire collection for re-grading, we all have one place to come and chat. After I'm done here, I'm going to try and find some sports coverage that is free of PED discussions and legal analysts. Once that ends in frustration, I'm going to go sit in the corner and pound salt. After that, because I'm sure it will make my wrist sore, I'm going to come back and see if everyone is still yelling at the rain. By then, it will be bedtime.

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:28 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliEdited, because I'm overcome with grief.

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:28 PM

Posted By: BcDyou play piano? classical? I thought you were a bowler? if your fingers swell in the ball it's got to make playing the piano a bit tougher! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:37 PM

Posted By: MikeU"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 9:02 PM Mike, I don't get your point. XYZ dealer sells me what he and independent grader agree is a bad card. I ask dealer for refund and he agrees. Are you saying it is now my responsibility to go back to the original grading company? I disagree--I think it is the responsibility of the dealer who sold me the bad card in the first place. Jim" If I were the dealer, I would immediately refund your money. My service to you would be that you would not have to deal with anyone else but me. In the background, I would send the card in for a grade bump and then consign for free (assuming a >$1K card) to Mastro :>) If I was not your dealer and was speaking to you man to man, I would say, Jim, how in the hell can you speak of cleaning up the hobby for all when you do not help to go after the root cause (grading compnay). In fact, you help facility negligent practices by the grading companies by forcing the onus onto venue holders (dealers, auction houses). I hope that explains my point better.

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:39 PM

Posted By: MikeU"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 6:12 PM I would like to point out that before Jim's thread over a year ago it was not common knowledge that Mastro did work on cards, and thanks to his efforts Doug said they no longer do so. Whether you like his methods or not, Jim has brought about some change and certainly does bring some thought provoking topics to the board. Since he's agreed not to hijack other threads perhaps the same courtesy could be extended to him on this one." I again agree 100% with Anthony.

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:39 PM

Posted By: Solomon"For sake of argument lets say I did $250K of business with XYZ Auction House and I bought a card for $10K that is a PSA 8. I then take it in to show Dave Forman--he looks at it and says this is beyond the shadow of a doubt a trimmed card. The president of the auction house comes to SGC listens to Dave and agrees. So that I will keep doing business in the future with him he writes me a check for $10K. Then he goes to PSA and attempts to get a refund." That's not a matter of doing what's right - that's a matter of doing what's smart. Anyone in business does this for it's best customers. Anyone who thinks the "little guy" is treated the same as the "major player" in any industry is delusional. I'm buying 200 Toyotas this year. I just got them to warranty an $1100 repair that was borderline. Think it's a coincidence? The pre-grading era auctions were based solely on the reputation of the individual. Mr Mint (as a convenient example) was the one making the claim the card was MINT, the finest example he'd ever seen, and by implication unaltered. It was Rosen's reputation, no one else. So it would be natural to look to Rosen for a refund. But now, if we saw a 53 Bowman Yogi Berra in Mastro's auction, described as the finest example they've ever seen, and NOT graded - would anyone pay 95% of PSA 9 money? Everyone is going to be screaming the obvious question. So Mastro (et al) offering a PSA 9, you're buying it because PSA says it's a 9, not because of the pseudo-intellectual writeup in the catalog on the American experience of living in 1953. I would then think you should look to PSA for restitution if it's not right. You can use the 2x4 approach of "I spend enough money to not deal with this"...but the price is going to be spending a lot of money in one place. And if PSA refuses to buy it back - 99% of the time it's going to be in the next auction. As far as the Coach's Corner comparison...it would be the equivalent of Mastro hiding behind using PRO as their grader of choice. How can you even sell the stuff with a straight face? I never could. I don't see how you can equate the good faith basis an auctioneer would put into selling a legitamitely graded/authenticated item, by a major company (PSA, SGC, PSA/DNA, JSA, etc.), vs. pushing crap graded by a fly by night operation.

Archive

02-28-2008, 06:54 PM

Posted By: BcDhe never cared about collecting that's for sure. BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-28-2008, 08:34 PM

Posted By: ramramFifty years from now, collectors will be laughing at us. Collectors in the distant future will look for the most visually appealing cards out there. They will have decided that there's been enough nearly undetectible tampering with cards that it's not worth determining what is virgin material anymore and what isn't. Additionally, they'll realize that the "doctored" cards actually look NICER. No longer will they foolishly leave dirt or pencil marks on the cards. Bleach will be a requirement. Removing a crease here, touching up there, a little bit of cleaning and, hey, they've got a beautiful card. Collectors will openly seek out the best touch-up artists. In general, the card collectors will finally catch up to the art world and realize that eye appeal is what really matters! Rob M.

Archive

02-28-2008, 08:54 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRob, I couldn't agree more. I collect antique posters and it is an open fact that damage in the posters are restored. Some of these posters are rarer than any baseball card - and even more expensive -- and no one bats an eye at restoration. Why? Because that's just the way it is. As it will be with baseball cards someday, probably.

Archive

02-28-2008, 08:57 PM

Posted By: 1880nonsportsthat's REALLY a super muse......... If it's about the CARD - it's all about the look - if it's about the investment - it's all about someone ELSE'S perceptions....

Archive

02-28-2008, 08:59 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesMy piano songs are the mello ones .The toughest song I do is by STyx ;" the best of times". DO a little Journey ,AIr Supply, MAnilow, etc.... I find soft songs to ease lifes daily gigs. These soft piano tunes when the notes hit just right, gives good vibes. AFter 9 yrs going back at it. Cds arent enough anymore.

Archive

02-28-2008, 09:06 PM

Posted By: AlanDan, I love those bands/artists you mentioned. I love 80's music period.

Archive

02-28-2008, 09:39 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCRob/Jeff- very interesting thought...very forward thinking, and as i read your posts, i can actually envision the future you project, and kind of believe you guys are right. i certainly do not endorse altering cards, but in the future, professional restoration (like in the vintage poster & art world, as you've mentioned), might be commonplace...it really is all about the cards, and the aesthetic. the IMPORTANT thing, might simply be the fact that the card (underneath any touch-ups, etc) is AUTHENTIC and NOT counterfiet. it is a little difficult to get my head around this concept, but you guys just might be right... interesting.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:34 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI do not believe that alteration/restoration will be acceptable in baseball cards anywhere within the next 50 years. I doubt the practice of restoration was ever frowned upon in poster collecting or artwork. The practice of cleaning and restoring coins has been frowned upon for eons in the coin collecting world and since the advent of grading it has been frowned upon in the baseball card hobby...I don't remember it even being an issue before PSA came along. You think those guys who pay $5,000 for common 1962 Topps cards in Gem Mint condition are ever going to accept restoration to a baseball card??? When they have millions invested in their collections and some guy can come along and pretty up the same 1962 Topps common for a few bucks and attain the same Gem Mint grade? Nosiree.

Archive

02-28-2008, 10:37 PM

Posted By: BcDare really hot right now! Too bad Ole Dorskin's "group" whenst not see the opportunity there! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:10 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCDan- let me clarify... when i was discussing restoration above (which i'm not saying i fully endorse, but was merely intrigued by Rob & Jeff's comments), i was not insinuating that said cards would be put into gem mint holders... they should still be slabbed "authentic"...or left raw (like Jeff's posters). my intepretation was that these cards would simply be appreciated & respected more and valued higher in the future.

Archive

02-28-2008, 11:21 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierJim, Looks like some of those who have admitted to altering for profit and/or accused of selling doctored cards, are planning to clean up the hobby. No need to fear PCCE is here: <a href="http://www.pcce2008.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.pcce2008.com/</a> "In addition to facilitating intimate interaction between collector and collectible source, the PCCE will bring collectible leaders together to enhance the perception of the industry. Most experts agree that the collectibles industry, like most industries, has some negative aspects and a few less than reputable players. But because of the industry's explosive growth, the indiscretions of the few have had a tendency to overshadow the many positive developments overall. The PCCE will function as a quasi think tank hosted by an elite group of collectible leaders on the forefront of the industry's evolution who are actively committed to promoting its new professionalism, integrity and business acumen." Initially I thought this was a joke. Now...I think it's a joke.

Archive

02-29-2008, 03:49 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDan, I agree with your concept. And I agree that no one would ever want restoration to be the norm in card collecting. However, I believe that with the prevalance of alteration in the hobby already, collectors at some point will not have a choice on this issue.

Archive

02-29-2008, 03:54 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, Welcome to my thread--have not heard from you in a while. Integrity? Do you see who some of the dealers are? The indiscretions of a few? I hope they have a panel that is open to the public and the question is asked about what they have done in card alteration and the questioner should tell them that they are under oath. Is this comedy?

Archive

02-29-2008, 04:18 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, Wow--that is a very very interesting post on Full Count. If people just told publicly what they knew to be true that would really shake things up. E-Mail me at home Kevin if you would or I will e-mail you tonight. You're the best. Jim

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:04 AM

Posted By: Tim CaravellaAs a fairly new collector in the vintage market, I can honestly say I am being turned off really quickly. Is the vintage market in as bad shape as this forum indicates? I love the historical side of both the game and our culture in general, but if there are no honest dealers/grading houses (and of course I know there are some out there somewhere) then why would I consider pumping big dollars into cards that probably have been altered at some point and submitted/passed through the major graders? Damn, this all seems so nasty!!!! Tim

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:20 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellTim, In my opinion, you should stay away from ungraded carfds unless you are quite sure of their history and be very careful buying graded prewar cards--especially low-to-mid grade ones. Jim

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:26 AM

Posted By: Dave FJim Now why would you tell someone to stay away from low and midgrade cards? You are pitiful. Are you really that thick-headed Jim? Dave

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:28 AM

Posted By: DarrenIn the pre-war arena I've always had an affinity for the midgrade (Vg to Ex), it just seemed like the logical selection for 80+ year old specimens. While I have the means to go after high grade, I've always stuck to the midgrade...there's something not natural about the super high grades, while there are some that exist, the true examples are rare. I guess my instinct has protected me to some extent to this ugly side of the hobby.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:36 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- telling people to stay away from low to midgrade cards, and ignoring the rampant problems with high grade cards, is irresponsible advice. If you want to continue to believe that only lower grade cards are altered, and the PSA 8's are for the most part fine, you are in a majority of one. It upsets you that more people aren't taking up your cause, but statements like that alienate everybody, even me. I just don't understand it. You turn a blind eye on anything you want, as long as it serves your belief that what you collect is untainted.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:43 AM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusIt seems somewhat counterintuitive to me to regard the cards in the condition one would most likely expect to find 80+ year old cards, which also are the cards with arguably the least to gain from alteration, to be the ones with the highest risk of being altered. That's not to say there are not altered vg-ex cards out there. But for my nickel at least I would be far more cautious purchasing an "8" than a "4". I can also tell you from the vantage of one who has been attending card shows for more than 40 years that I continue to be amazed at the number of high grade (e.g., 8s) cards from certain issues (e.g., T206) I see. In the 60's and 70's when I would attend shows (which in those days before auctions/the internet were the main venue for buying/selling/trading cards) I have no recollection whatsoever of seeing such great numbers of Nr-Mt/Mt vintage cards as I see today. On another thread someone made the observation that it is very unusual to find oversized T206s today. One guess where they all went.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:46 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Nothing is untainted--I don't believe I ever said that. I simply gave advice to a novice collector who knows little about vintage cards--I think its smart for a novice collector to first focus on graded cards and then within that I would steer him to the higher grade cards where risk of cards having been "worked on" is less.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:48 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAnd Tim, since you asked a question- I think it is safe to buy lower and mid grade cards that have been graded, but it's always prudent to look at a scan or view them in person before buying. There is much to be enjoyed in the vintage card market so don't be turned off by it. And welcome to the board.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:49 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAnd I would steer him away from higher grade cards where the risk is significantly greater. Just my two cents from 25 years in the hobby.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:51 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCorey, I respect your historical perspective and its likely some(who knows how many) were trimmed. Some likely came from finds along the way I would think; some part of old-time collections that came on to the market as a result of the tremendous appreciation in psa 8 prewar cards. Didn't the Mastro Auction recently have a lot of high grade cards(Cracker Jacks?) that were part of an old-timer's collection? Jim

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:52 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, We each have 25 years in the hobby but come to a different conclusion--thats okay.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:57 AM

Posted By: leonSorry to keep quoting you but you really do have a knack for hitting the nail on the head... "On another thread someone made the observation that it is very unusual to find oversized T206s today. One guess where they all went." The answer is they are in Crandall's collection residing in 8 holders.....too bad....

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:15 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellFunny Leon...and in just mine right--not Louchios or Ireland or Spence--and you say this never having seen my cards?

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:21 AM

Posted By: Dave FJim, Louchios or Ireland or Spence aren't coming up with the stupid idea that only low grade cards are altered. I only see you saying such dribble. Dave

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:28 AM

Posted By: Paul MossThis thread will surpass the STAT/Morales train OT trainwreck in posts, barring Leon retains his composure and doesn't drop the hammer on Jim as a disruptive influence. You read it here first. OK, a few observations. 1. I have to disagree with Jim returning graded cards to auction houses years after the fact. The major grading companies have a guarantee in place, and their sole purpose is to stand behind their service in order that trade might occur within the marketplace between buyer and seller at an accepted level thus alleviating the concerns that both parties might have. That's what they get paid for. If any auction house did in fact refund, contrary to their terms and conditions of sale and years after the fact, then I would question the integrity of that house. I realize that we don't live in a perfect world, and the playing field should be level for all buyers who comprehend the rules of the game, but the word would get out sooner or later regarding something of this nature happening to a high roller, and the cumulative effect of the smaller buyers realizing that they've been played for suckers, would far offset anything the auction house had to gain by kissing the ass of the high bucks player. The high rollers come and go like the tides, but the average Joe Collector who plugs away at his passion will always be there. He is the TRUE backbone of the hobby and never overlook that fact. 2. Watch out for low to mid-grade vintage? Oh puhleeze! That is rock upon which the vintage hobby is built upon. They are the most liquid, with a much larger following than any of the same issues in high grade. Give me a raw VG through EX raw, or slabbed 1-6 of any issue, and I know that the card will sell, with competitive bids for whatever the market is at that particular moment. The high grade darlings are sweat-time because all it takes is one of the three guys that are collecting it in that particular high grade to either miss the auction, be in the midst of a cash crunch, or already have the card, and the realized price tanks. High grade issues become "fashionable", and once a couple of the high rollers move on to other issues, the overall high end market for that particular set weakens considerably but the lower grade stuff just keeps on trucking along. Stability is a good thing. These cards are your best bet for being untouched by the doctors and barbers, though they are the raw material in many cases for the high grade darlings. Like these NM-MT altereds started out in the same grade? Huh? 3. ........and while I'm on a roll. The constant paranoia over the number of altered cards in holders. Jesus Christ, it's getting ridiculous. Sure, there a number in major company holders. It's only natural that a few slip through and have slipped through over the years. BUT, the overwhelming majority of cards residing in holders are as described. The grade is correct and the card has not been altered. I'd be more concerned with some of the vintage residing in older holders that wouldn't make the grade today. Some of those T206 8's from the late 90's wouldn't make a 7 by today's tougher grading standards. The same could be said of many other issues.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:39 AM

Posted By: leonVery well said.....I not only agree with you 100% but everything you said is common sense to sensible folks....

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:40 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellHey Paul, Good to hear from you--thanks for posting! Respect your points of view even though different from mine. Hope you are right on the amount of altered cards in holders. Lets have a drink next time I am in Houston. Cheers, Jim

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:49 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI too agree with Paul with regard to the liquidity of low to mid grade cards. I sell them every week on ebay and don't have to look too hard to find bidders. But all the high grade cards that sell for crazy prices on ebay are almost always due to two or more guys building registry sets at the same time. Once one or both are done, prices tank. I've seen it happen many times. It's a very thin market. My favorite grades are 3 to 6, even have good success with the 2's. No question that is the backbone of the hobby. For every guy building a registry set, there are a hundred buying mid-grade cards and having a great time doing it.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:54 AM

Posted By: JK"I would steer him to the higher grade cards where risk of cards having been "worked on" is less." One of the most self-serving statements I've read and completely counter-intuitive.

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:01 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJK, The reason I say this is talking to dealers who tell me that a lot of this goes on under the radar screen. Nobody suspects a psa 4 could be altered but without the alterations it could be a psa 3 or psa 2.

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:02 AM

Posted By: Dave FJim I have to wonder what color the sky is in your world.

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:06 AM

Posted By: SteveThe reason I say this is talking to dealers who tell me that a lot of this goes on under the radar screen. Nobody suspects a psa 4 could be altered but without the alterations it could be a psa 3 or psa 2. Jim did it occur to you that maybe they claim this because they are the ones selling to YOU higher end cards? Just a thought. Steve edited: Please do not put more than your name in the "your name" box. Thanks.

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:09 AM

Posted By: Briangreen

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:09 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSteve, Not same ones.

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:22 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittthe person working diligently on the 3 to get it to a 4 reaps what reward?........maybe $50 on a common T206? What about the person taking a 6 or 7 to an 8 or 9. What do they reap? $500, $750, $1000 or way more? Hmm..........seems like a LOGICAL choice as to what space you'd practice your trickery....not in the 3's but in the 6's and 7's. I know you will fight that point to the death Jim and you say that there are all these people that support your theory on low grade altering but, quite frankly, I've not seen many (if ANY) of them come on here and support that theory. Might be easier to do a little something to a 3 to get it to a 4 than a 6 or 7 to an 8 but if you're a crook, you're going to maximize your return. That's why FEW (if any) $1's and $5's are counterfeited.......... And as to all the high grade T206's out there, I've heard of MANY times where vintage scrapbooks were soaked in bathtubs, pulling out really high grade cards. Unfortuately, I can't find any of those anymore........and, we can argue ad naseum about whether it's right to free the cards from scrapbooks. That's not the point for this thread....maybe Crandall, part 2. edited to put $ sign in front of 1's and 5's

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, Appreciate your point of view. One factor to consider is that is more difficult to get higher end trims through grading companies whereas as one expert pointed out to me there are a number of things you can do to the lower grade cards to improve the grade. I won't fight my point to the death--only repeating what I have heard from what I consider to be knowledgeable people. Maybe I'm wrong? Jim

Archive

02-29-2008, 10:18 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittin some cases, more things you can do to a 3 to get a 4 than the other. BUT.....again......the reward isn't exponentially greater like it is on the high end stuff. I'm sure that, within every segment of cards, there are cards that have been doctored that have made it through. It's just the law of averages. We can debate the point all we want but we'll never REALLY know.

Archive

02-29-2008, 10:32 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, I will consult the grand wizard of knowledge of card alterations and see what he says. Jim

Archive

02-29-2008, 10:40 AM

Posted By: leonI hope your grand wizard has been doing this longer than 3 years.....If not he might not be so grand.....You might want to consult someone that has been doing it longer than my newest pair of underwear is old...... edited for clarification

Archive

02-29-2008, 10:46 AM

Posted By: WesleyWho is the grand wizard of knowledge of card alterations?

Archive

02-29-2008, 10:54 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin Saucier.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:08 AM

Posted By: JKJim, If your point is that lower grade cards (3s, 4s) have had pencil marks removed or a corner layed down, I agree. I also really couldnt care less if I had a card that once had a pencil mark removed. Frankly, I would not be overly concerned if I had a card that at one time had a wrinkle spooned out (as long as it never came back - which is a subject of debate). These things dont concern me as much because I (1) in the case of erasing, dont consider it to be an alteration; or (2) in the case of wrinkle removal, am prepared to accept and live with that fact. These types of "alterations" do not fundamentally change the card in my mind. Trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, etc - these are all things that absolutely change the card and, IMO, are much more likely to be found in higher grades.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:12 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJK, Respect your point of view. I asked the expert and if he says I am wrong I stand corrected. Also will ask Dave Forman and Mike Baker this weekend to see what they say on this.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:12 AM

Posted By: leonYou know you are batting your head against a brick wall, right? Common sense has never worked with Jim.....The ole adage "common sense isn't so common" never rang more true....Though I do firmly believe that about 99.8% of our members do have good common sense.....

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:17 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim admitted he was wrong. That's what happens when you post simultaneously.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:23 AM

Posted By: JKBarry, I dont believe Jim has admitted anything - there is an "if" in there.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:25 AM

Posted By: Dave FI dont know what is worse. Trying to understand Crandell or running my knuckles over a cheese grader for 30 minutes.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:30 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I think I said I may be wrong. I will of course say so if I am. I will talk to Kevin, Mike and Dave and report back. my sense is that even if all three agree with what I said there will still be those who will criticise the messenger.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:36 AM

Posted By: BrianThey can't all 3 agree, unless its that they all agree you are wrong.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:38 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMay be wrong...fair enough, the jury is still out.

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBrian, Whatever they say, I will report in. Jim

Archive

02-29-2008, 11:51 AM

Posted By: JohnI have found this thread to be eerily similar to a horrific car crash. You just HAVE to look.

Archive

02-29-2008, 12:39 PM

Posted By: JohnJim; I know you're one of Kevin’s biggest supporters I get it and Kevin seems ok, I still don’t really get what he's trying to achieve with his experiments but at least there are thought provoking. But seriously don’t go into the PR field anytime soon…”Grand Wizard” of card alterations. I would think of a better name for Kevin if you can. That is unless he’s planning on burning slabs in our front yards anytime soon wearing a white hood.LOL

Archive

02-29-2008, 12:44 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellHold tight--I expect to have a statement by Kevin in the next two hours.

Archive

02-29-2008, 12:48 PM

Posted By: barrysloateA statement about what?

Archive

02-29-2008, 12:55 PM

Posted By: Cobby33"Ask not what your country can do for you..."

Archive

02-29-2008, 01:04 PM

Posted By: Dave F"Hold tight--I expect to have a statement by Kevin in the next two hours." Gee Jim...I'm sure everyone is on the edge of their seats. What does that mean? Hold tight? I think most everyone likes Kevin and accepts he has some pretty good knowledge with card alterations, but geez Crandell...you act like he's the second coming of Moses.

Archive

02-29-2008, 01:07 PM

Posted By: Steve Murray"A statement about what?" About whether spooning and erasing are material alterations?

Archive

02-29-2008, 01:08 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayDon't you mean Jesus? I think Henry would be offended <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-29-2008, 01:10 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierI know you're one of Kevin’s biggest supporters I get it and Kevin seems ok, I still don’t really get what he's trying to achieve with his experiments but at least there are thought provoking. Wait....I think I just felt the ground shake. NO, it's not an earthquake. John, are you hitting the cough syrup again or did you bump your head (LOL)? Have to agree with you on the Grand Wizard thing. I am, after all...Jewish. I suspect a photoshop image is soon to follow. Kevin

Archive

02-29-2008, 01:15 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaAnyone caught spooning with their cards on the Net54 will be summarily beaten to death by the Grand Wizard.

Archive

02-29-2008, 01:23 PM

Posted By: Dave FKevin- Can't you just give us your "statement" yourself without it passing through Jim? Just keeps the suspense going if we wait on Jim.

Archive

02-29-2008, 01:34 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier(ROTFLMAO) I'm contractually obligated to work through my agent. Soon my people will contact your people. Keep in mind: It's not the destination that counts, It’s the journey.

Archive

02-29-2008, 02:21 PM

Posted By: leonI hope Dave doesn't mind me saying but I asked him the question about what cards does he feel might be more prone to altering.....Basically, it's as all people with common sense have said all along....the higher the grade the more prone they are to have issues we are speaking of. Specifically the 8-9 group would be the most prone.....This is stuff we already knew but since he and I were talking I went ahead and asked him. It's just common sense.......regards

Archive

02-29-2008, 02:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellIt will be a bit longer--please stand by.

Archive

02-29-2008, 02:39 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- I'm peeing in my pants...please don't make me wait any longer!

Archive

02-29-2008, 02:43 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmI haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this has already been said. Obviously there is more economic incentive to alter a high grade card than a low grade one. But high grade cards that are now in holders at least have been inspected by a professional grader and given the stamp of approval. So the percentage of graded cards that have been altered is probably low. The percentage of raw cards that have been altered is probably low also, especially in the lower grades. The ones I would be worried about are the ones that appear to be high grade but haven't been holdered yet -- the question is why aren't they in a holder? It is either because they haven't been sent in yet, or because they have been altered, or appear to be so, and have been rejected as such.

Archive

02-29-2008, 02:45 PM

Posted By: Dave FAs usual Jim. 182 posts now in this thread and all of it meaningless.

Archive

02-29-2008, 02:45 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI agree with Eric. It's just common sense. Last relatively expensive card I bought raw was a 56 Mantle in NM condition; when that card came back as trimmed from PSA I learned my lesson.

Archive

02-29-2008, 02:48 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThere are very few high grade cards sold today that aren't slabbed. There's no reason to leave all that money on the table when a graded card is worth so much more.

Archive

02-29-2008, 03:01 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, Only you think that way--don't read it. Just read your comments--lighten up--no reason to go through life so angry. This is fun.

Archive

02-29-2008, 03:17 PM

Posted By: WesleyLeon, That is great.... but you did not talk the the grand wizard.

Archive

02-29-2008, 03:37 PM

Posted By: JohnJim; Would this comment from Kevin have anything to do with what he posted on the Full Count board? If so why the secret squirrel routine? Just cut and paste Kevin’s blurb I found it interesting and Kevin may be on to something. "The fact is Mastro has worked on cards in the past and according to Doug, the possibility is still there. Rumors in the seedy underground world of card doctors is that they employed a person (or two) to do the altering before sending them to an accepting grading company. I have even been given their names from some very respected sources, one name is instantly known. Regardless, they are an auction house and have no business touching the card other than selling them." "I don't trust them and would never even think about buying a sportscard from Mastro. If they admit to laying down corners and pressing creases, imagine what they are not telling us. What few non-sport cards I did win was by accident...my low bid to keep playing actually won." "As many know, I have a very extensive Titanic relic collection. In Dec 2006, Mastro had up for auction some very questionable Titanic items. A quick investigation revealed they were consigned by a well known ebay fraudster. I called and told them the items were fake and, as a matter of fact, the survivor who's jewelry piece was being offered was never even on the ship (living or dead). They still sold with full knowledge and without a disclosure. Here is a thread about two auctions...with links." Kevin Saucier Kevin with that said and all due respect sooner or later your going to have to step up your role in this stuff and really give some background on yourself and your motives etc. If you don’t know matter how much interesting stuff you elude too that you have uncovered without names and evidence it’s really nothing more than hearsay and theories? Kevin if your motive in this is to really make a change I’d hate to see all of your hard work get dismissed as just another web guy with conspiracy theories and hearsay, who likes to doctor cards in his spare time. Please don’t get offended by my comment I really have no real issue with you and you have always made attempts to answer my questions no matter how pointed without crying like a baby.LOL I also find your posts on doctoring very interesting as well, but I’m still a little confused where you’re going with this stuff, I may be the only one still but who knows. P.S. What’s your connection with Rob Lifson and the tag quote on your posts on Full Count, acn you elaborate on this. Having a spooner with Mastro raises enough eyebrows, but a guy with your talents being tight with Rob also makes me scratch my head and think some unsavory thoughts.LOL I hope you can understand and perhaps clarify? **Edited to add Kevin's story, as I found it very intresting to say the least, Kevin I hope you dont mind if so email me and I delete it but I think folks should hear it.**

Archive

02-29-2008, 03:46 PM

Posted By: BcDwho know a lot more than anyone who posted in this thread. Jim,why does one need to know the history of a raw card......if you are interested in buying raw cards? You need only to have the confidence to know how to grade/detect issues with them! heck there are tons of dealers who would buy ungraded vintage cards! Do you not think Chad Dreier has not purchased tons of raw cards? I'll be he is quite comfortable doing so without any concern for the past owners. BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-29-2008, 04:21 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellHere is the message of the master. Every word is quoted in an e-mail from Kevin to me except what is in the parenthesis which is my editorial comment or explanation on what Kevin is saying. It is much easier to get a lower grade into a mid grade(my exact point) or get a bump(on a low grade) and one can probably do it every time. Like you mentioned, there are more problems that need to be fixed, its easier to cover up and more leverage. Even a good soak can give a card much better eye appeal, enough for a grade bump. I do think that on a percentage basis alone, there are more altered cards in 7 and above holders. Its much more difficult, requires some skill, but is by far more rewarding. My view for prewar alterations 2-3 through 6--higher volume 7 and above--higher percentage Postwar--a wash. My comment--this all makes sense to me--more lower grade cards have been altered prewar but a higher percentage of higher grade.

Archive

02-29-2008, 04:26 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWell as you can see Wonka, Kevin's comments did not relate to what he posted on Full Count. Personally I thought it was against the rules on Net 54 to copy posts from Full Count and post them here so I did not. Obviously what Kevin says on Full Count is explosive if true. And make no mistake--Kevin is a true expert on card alteration.

Archive

02-29-2008, 04:34 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliBest. Thread. Ever. -Al

Archive

02-29-2008, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Big news.

Archive

02-29-2008, 04:50 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellYup and it will be interesting what the grading companies say. Stay tuned.

Archive

02-29-2008, 04:51 PM

Posted By: Gene PalmerIs it just me or does anyone else think this thread reminds them of the whack-a-mole game?

Archive

02-29-2008, 05:13 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierI’m the first to admit, consider "everything" I say as hearsay unless I see it with my own eyes. If I theorize I will state it as a thought or opinion. My relationship with Lifson is an exchange of emails in which he was very complimentary about my contribution to the hobby. It is an honor to be associated with his fine name. The quote is something he said in an email to me when I was disgruntled about collectors who are angry at me for no reason. Also, thank you for bringing it to this board. Contrary to your belief John, I don’t need to step up my role, give a background, answer to you or share my motives. There are no motives, I haven't sold a card in years and the list of those I have helped in one way or another, I’m proud to say, is very long. Can’t a guy just do something good for the sake of doing something good? My guess is no...not in this hobby. It’s polluted by the love of money, which is no knock against the investors. The rewards are having met several fine individuals and some great friends, plus being banned from everywhere except Net54.

Archive

02-29-2008, 05:41 PM

Posted By: BcDjust wondering,did you ask Rob if he has ever altered a card? Jim,how about Dave Foreman? have you men asked them this???? their replies are? BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-29-2008, 05:47 PM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusWhy is it easier to cover up an alteration to a low grade card than to a high grade card? Other than perhaps soaking, which probably in and of itself is not sufficient to upgrade a card to high grade, why would the typical alteration methods (e.g., trimming, rebuilt corners, added coloring) be more difficult to detect with a vg-ex card than with a nr mt/mt card? I don't understand that. Assuming the grading company is equally diligent looking for such things with low grade cards as they are with high grade cards, why should more things slip through with the low grade cards?

Archive

02-29-2008, 05:54 PM

Posted By: BcDyour mind is deferred by all the other imperfections so much more obvious on a low grade card. kind of like the two guys with 22 inch biceps but one has a big beer gut! the guy with the small stomach's biceps are more noticeable even though the same size as the other guy~ BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:02 PM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusI politely disagree. To an experienced grading company that knows what to look for and is as on guard for low grade cards as they are for high grade cards, the telltale signs of trimming, rebuilt corners, added coloring should be equally discernable regardless of the condition of the card. To use the terminology from your example, they should not be thrown off by the big beer gut.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:09 PM

Posted By: BcD"an experienced grading company" there are experienced people in grading but lots of new territory has been brought to the surface in the last ten years these companies were not ready for~ BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:21 PM

Posted By: Todd Schultzeasy on the beergut comments Brian-- cuts a little too close to home. You may have a six pack, but I've got a 24 pack--4 sets on tops of each other....oh wait, is it supposed to be muscle? Never mind.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:45 PM

Posted By: Chris<<My view for prewar alterations 2-3 through 6--higher volume 7 and above--higher percentage Postwar--a wash.>> I don't understand the last part of this statement. With the exception of a few cards per set, I can't see much incentive to alter lower grade postwar cards, but I think it would make more sense to trim modern cards than to restore pre-war cards. The margin for 10's on key rookies or even pre-1980 star cards is still very strong, the cuts are easier to duplicate, most cards wouldn't require much work, and dealers can just relist their rejects raw and recoup their initial investment (or just keep resubmitting). The risk with pre-war cards, especially high grade cards, is much higher because most people assume that a high grade pre-war card is a scam and older cards have more character, meaning they're more likely to be recognized in the grading room if they were previously rejected. Even the most meticulous grader isn't going to recognize an 89 UD Griffey that he rejected a month prior. I don't claim to know who's doing what and to what degree, but if I were a card doctor I'd focus on post-1972 cards for those reasons.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:53 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, That was an absolutely great statement. All for the good of the hobby, no ulterior motives and Rob loves him and .......he won't listen to Wonka Tou are reaching God-like status.

Archive

02-29-2008, 06:58 PM

Posted By: Dave FJim- I'm throwing up in my mouth a little. Dave

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:11 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI'm riveted. This thread gets better by the SECOND. Can we get Frank Wakefield in this thread to talk about grading, please? It's just not complete without him. THIS THREAD NEEDS FRANK WAKEFIELD. -Al

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:12 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmGod-like or not, thanks to Kevin (and Jim) for working on the problem. I hope your efforts bear fruit in some way.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:18 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierI'm waiting for the applesauce dude.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:19 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellAl--please stay off--we know how you feel.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:20 PM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyKevin, I am not trying to attack you or onything like that but how long exactly have you been involved in pre-war baseball cards? How much experience do you have, and when did you start running your "experiments" on pre-war cards? If we are supposed to hold you up as some sort of gold standard we need more background info. Interesting that Jim will quote Kevin like what he says can be found in the book of Genesis, but collectors like myself, Barry, Corey, Leon, etc, etc. are told by Jim that he must consult with those with "experience" before he will concede. -Rhett

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:20 PM

Posted By: JohnJim; Honestly why do you assume everyone is a nobody but you, the level of arrogance you display is really telling sometimes. Jim, if you read above I actually say nothing negative about Kevin, I only ask questions which I honestly think are valid. I even compliment the guy on his alteration thread. Yet you both get so defensive which is so odd to me. By the way we’ve seen this movie now like 20 times. Here’s the plot for those of you who don’t have net 54 Tivo…every couple of months Jim you get on here and fire off shots across the bows of folks. Then you ask the same question over and over that has already been answered. Then folks fire back and you cry and throw a fit like a girl on MTV’s “My Sweet Sixteen”. Then you get all serious and drag Kevin into this acting like some drugged up PR person saying stuff which makes all of us cringe most likely including Kevin. You then proceed to make outlandish claims with little or no evidence short of I heard this from a guy etc. Then Kevin chimes in which generally raises questions because lets face it what Kevin generally chimes in on is controversial to say the least. Then questions are re-directed to Kevin he gets defensive, and you come to his rescue once again making everyone and anyone who doesn’t agree with your view of Kevin out to be a total idiot. Then it all dies we give up and next month its freaking ground hog day again and here’s Jim. Anyone hear think my comments above to Kevin where out of line? Also for a guy who says he hates attacks, you basically say above that Rob Lifson wouldn’t take my questions seriously implying that I’m a hobby nobody if you will. That really says a lot about you Jim, and it also must say that you and Rob are pretty tight; for you to speak for him on record if he would listen to me or not. Besides why would he listen to me I’m just a customer perhaps REA doesn’t need my bids, he can just make it up with you Jim. John P.S. Jim if your out to clean this hobby up you may not to alienate and insult ohhhh I don’t….other COLLECTORS! God man hate to see you run for office…I can hear you now oh I don’t these peoples vote.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:22 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJim, I can't help it. I want to talk about serious issues, and this is the place to be. -Al

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:26 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, You're a lunatic--all I said is I'm glad Kevin doesn't feel he has to answer to you and apparently he feels the same way too. Have no idea what you mean about REA--I don't speak for him. I know he admires Kevin though. If you have something positive to add please do--if not please go away. We know you don't like me --you say it again and again and again. Relax.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellAl--you do have a good point--carry on Funny I have one thread and many formerly claimed that either I had multiple threads or I messed up a perfectly good thread yet they can't stay away from this one. Guys you don't like it, ignore it --its easy. This is for guys like Al who want to talk about serious issues.

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:31 PM

Posted By: John"All for the good of the hobby, no ulterior motives and Rob loves him and .......he won't listen to Wonka" Ever heard of interpretation of the written word…what you wrote above can read many ways, however calling me a lunatic well that’s pretty cut and dry. You know Jim, a nice way to say that would be to say you read me wrong etc… Take care, John

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:34 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellHe meaning Kevin. How can I be nice when you carry on like you do--chill!!

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:35 PM

Posted By: John"How can I be nice when you carry on like you do--chill!!" Great advice Jim, perhaps you can take a lesson from your own words?

Archive

02-29-2008, 07:56 PM

Posted By: MVSNYChate to break this video out on you guys... but if you watch the whole thing from start to finish, i guarentee it will help to put all of this dumb drama into perspective. enjoy. <a href="http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=ithct48cqw" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=ithct48cqw</a>

Archive

02-29-2008, 08:39 PM

Posted By: SteveThis thread gave me a headache. Steve

Archive

02-29-2008, 09:20 PM

Posted By: BcDhey Kevin.... February 28 2008, 8:41 PM just wondering,did you ask Rob if he has ever altered a card? Jim,how about Dave Foreman? have you men asked them this???? their replies are? BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-29-2008, 10:41 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucierjust wondering,did you ask Rob if he has ever altered a card? Of course not. Doubt I've ever asked anyone that...usually they tell me first.

Archive

02-29-2008, 10:47 PM

Posted By: BcDJim would be expecting you to find out and disclose! Considering Jim's directness in asking Doug Allen such things why not ask Rob???? And Jim! you want to clear the air so you best ask Dave and post the response here please???? has Dave altered cards???? has Rob Lifson altered cards??? BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 06:13 AM

Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)Brian: Do you really expect an honest response from anyone? With the grief that Doug Allen has been given, you will never have another dealer or auction house admit to ever have doing anything.

Archive

03-01-2008, 08:00 AM

Posted By: jaxxrInteresting and entertaining thread. Kind of wonder why all the fuss over which grade of card gets more "alterations" ANY grade/level card MAY be altered. There's likely more lower/mid grade older cards out there, so PROBABLY there could be more altered. The money is greater for altered higher end cards, so PROBABLY more time and effort for altering them. So what ? Who cares which level or grade is more likely to be "fixed" ? There is certainly no extreme likelyhood for any one particular grade. Why any big concern whether Jim's opinion is perfectly correct or not ? As mentioned prior by Paul, most graded cards are fine, however, we all know there are exceptions, and a few MAY be altered. We should be aware of that potential, and regardless of the card being a 4 or an 8, we should try our best to get original items from reputable people.

Archive

03-01-2008, 08:40 AM

Posted By: BcDThe point was Jim tauts people he knows nothing about! The point is Jim has no problem asking personal question of people he does not like about card doctoring but won't even ask those he thinks/feels are/have been honest with him. He wants to expose who is who and who does/did what and yet is biased in who he will consult/expose. The point is....Jim,all 117 pounds of him,should put some of his suspicion to good use and ask his pals the same questions he asks Doug. Here's one for ole Jim- I know Doug Jim,Have known him for over 14 years. I stayed at his home for about 10 days while my brand new truck was being repaired as a result of an accident I had with a taxi driver in front of the Sears tower in 1995! I will tell you guys Doug would never personally alter,cut,air brush,dye,slice,dice,trim or otherwise a baseball card! Now tell me Jim,Kevin.....would Rob or Dave have ever done such a thing??? Did you guys ask them??? Do you guys have the unbiased to ask them the same things you want Rick Kohl to respond to??? Come on Jim,Ask Dave and ask Rob and tell us what they say about themselves??? And Jim,you call Wonka a lunatic!( he weighs 230 or so....you 117*-that's funny Jim <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) In your opinion(if your too whinish to ask them), do you think Dave Foreman has ever altered a card Jim?? Do you think any of those cards are in your collection if so Jim?? Come on Jim ask all your pals about their habits not just pound on Doug! It gets old Jim and has no bearing on your so called desire to clean up th hobby when you won't even face reality.You might be better off getting a personal trainer and put some time into your work out so your body is at least 1/10th the size of your big mouth Jim! You are....and get old! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 08:43 AM

Posted By: MVSNYC117 pounds? guess you haven't met Jim before.

Archive

03-01-2008, 08:44 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim's a little bigger than 117, but Wonka is most definitely a bruiser!

Archive

03-01-2008, 08:47 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCBarry- John used to be an ultimate fighter in the late '90's...he certainly is a bruiser... you have to meet his identical twin brother, Maximillion...they were seperated at birth in Scotland... he's a riot!

Archive

03-01-2008, 08:49 AM

Posted By: barrysloateTwo Wonkas is a little more than I can handle <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 08:52 AM

Posted By: BcDmy statement was based on that Geeky photo he passed around the internet of him about ten/15 years ago! What? Does he look like Dorskin now? BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Ultimate Wonka looks like this~ <img src="http://www.mguerrilla.com/photos/uncategorized/garfield_1.gif">

Archive

03-01-2008, 09:13 AM

Posted By: JimBRob Lifson posted scans of a 1933 Goudey Lajoie a year or so ago that was mid-grade and altered that someone tried to consign to his auction. While I disagree with most of what Jim Crandall says, I think there is some validity to the notion that card-doctors attempt to move cards from a grade of 3 to a 5 as much as they do from a 6 to an 8. I would imagine the grading companies may be a bit more lax in looking for alterations on a mid-grade card than a potentially nm/mt Cobb. Generally I think that the number of altered cards that slip through either PSA or SGC is extremely small (My guess would be less than 1%), but the notion that there are more attempts to do that at the PSA 8/9 level as opposed to the 3-6 level is naive. Cards that are that sharp set off immediate warning signs, whereas people tend to presume the mid-grade cards are probably fine. If it were so easy to get high-grade cards through, they would not be such condition rarities and demand the premiums they do for those who like them. JimB

Archive

03-01-2008, 09:18 AM

Posted By: barrysloateHe's north of 117! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 09:22 AM

Posted By: BcDpotatoes,carrots,white rice and bananas and macaroons kick in? does he need to "TRIM" down? arrrr arrr arrr BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 09:29 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWell, I don't want to get too personal here! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 09:52 AM

Posted By: BcDis Jim really Peter Chao? BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 10:02 AM

Posted By: John“so your body is at least 1/10th the size of your big mouth Jim!” LOL BCD Nah the guy you have to watch out for is Sloate it’s those wirey Brooklyn kids who grew up playing stickball that can really mess you up! Mike my twin brother says hi, LOL.

Archive

03-01-2008, 10:10 AM

Posted By: AnonymousIs it really a surprise that there are cards that have been altered and are being altered? I've been collecting since the 1970's. I was a weekend warrior for about 10 years and was fortunate enough to own or see many incredible cards. My pre-war collection (at least 95% of it) paid for graduate school back when you could buy a t206 EX Cobb for a couple of hundred dollars and caramels were throw-ins) I no longer really am anything other than a very casual collector, there are other things that take up my time and money in life nowadays. Artwork is not only altered, its outright often counterfeited. Heck a German museum about a week ago found out a 35 MILLION $ painting was a forgery. The Hermitage has a Rembrant that was attacked with a knife and acid - it took about 8 years to restore. If a Rembrant can be restored after acid then baseball cards can be made to look NM. Personally I liked it when pre 1948 baseball cards were much less popular (and cheaper), but the times have changed and one of the drivers of that change is grading. And lets be straight here - the truth is that there are good graders and bad graders - there is no certification to obtain and its subjective. All of which lends itself to the temptation of altering the cards. Hate to break it to those that collect only high grade but I can tell you that when PSA first started, there were people going around and buying oversided cards of all types (not just pre-war). And they weren't buying them because they had an "oversized" card collection or were studying printing techniques of the early 20 century. And even before that there were dealers who would openly speak about a card being able to be "made" NM - I can specifically remember a dealer discussing some E92's that I had that had generous borders - they were all about EX with no creases - he was telling me I was crazy for selling them for $10 each when I could "make" them NM and get maybe 20-30. I tried to get him to buy the cards but he wouldn't as "no one wants candy cards..." And over the last several years I can say that I've seen many caramel cards in auctions that are fairly high grades that I believe (not 100% but certainly more than a passing thought) I've seen or handled before and they weren't quite as nice as they are now. Just as artwork has been altered through the years so have a decent amount of cards and the number will increase. So if you can live with that then buy the high grade pre-war cards, if not buy the books as its much cheaper <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> And yes I would also add that mid grade cards get altered. I'll never forget a 1933 Goudey Ruth that I bought as part of a collection, looked vg with no creases...but after looking at it several times realized that the right border had been trimmed...and after measuring and further inspection proved myself correct <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> I collected (and occasionally still look/read) because it was enjoyable....I find it hard to think that this thread and the subject in general is really enjoyable.

Archive

03-01-2008, 10:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn- I can fit comfortably into the left sleeve of your sports jacket.

Archive

03-01-2008, 10:18 AM

Posted By: LetsGoBucsAs a sidenote. I would encourage anyone, especially those that collect to make a visit to St. Petersburg and visit the Hermitage museum. Its really unbelievable and I don't even like art. They have an entire room of Rembrants, entire room of Reubens, statues by Michaelangelo (sure mispelled), Da Vinci's, Van Gogh's on and on and they have tons and tons of it!! The one negative is the way the stuff is not really protected from the environment - lots of very valuable paintings with no enclosures and sitting next to windows (not exagerating). All kinds of sculptures from BC's and early AD's. And the building itself has some simply incredible rooms as it was originally built as a palace. No early Russian baseball cards that I saw but well worth the trip once in your lifetime.

Archive

03-01-2008, 10:37 AM

Posted By: Marty Kohler"BUCS" .....That my friend is one of the most intelligent and accurate posts that I`ve read on this board,...Right on!! Well said!! GO YARD

Archive

03-01-2008, 10:48 AM

Posted By: BcDJim B,what you write makes sense. it's ludicrous how Blimpy publically calls out people he does not like while circumventing people he has purchased cards from! he won't face the music and ask "All" dealers if they have altered cards! he defames Doug Allen but does not address Bill Mastro or Rob L or Dave Foreman on matters he "claims" concern for. Sorry Jim, sentiment is not sacrifice! Do the due diligence and get back to us on what the these guys have to say or go away as many are no longer listening! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

03-01-2008, 11:21 AM

Posted By: Aaron Patton ...what ever happened to ole Peter Chao?

Archive

03-01-2008, 11:41 AM

Posted By: DMcDLast I heard he was doing a radio show with Jeff L.

Archive

03-01-2008, 11:46 AM

Posted By: Rob D.Peter C. and Jim C. aren't the same person?

Archive

03-01-2008, 12:22 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellSpent Three and a Half Hours Today at the Reading Show--had a lot of interesting conversations and bought some neat cards. 1)First and I guess most importantly I bought my first SGC cards ever--all vintage golf. Four Bobby Jones cards--1926 Lambert & Butler(SGC 96),1927 British American(SGC 88),1927 Churchman's Small(SGC 88) and 1927 Churchman's Large(SGC 84).Thanks to Mike Dobrynio as I start my move into vintage golf. 2)Aside from this transaction(which was prearranged) I didn't find too much I needed--5 Basketball 1971 Topps Trios from my friend Andy Madec and a 67 Kahn card I needed. 3)Sat down with Doug Allen who made a passionate defense of his integrity and said he would never alter a card and would fire anyone who did. He called his taking out a light crease comment a poor choice of wording, said he was talking about wrinkles, got into a discussion of applying pressure versus undo pressure on a card and I think told me that applying pressure was okay. He said he has written a two page explanation of his practices which he was going to post here. I would buy cards from Mastronet but probably not expensive cards unless they gave me the option of showing them to Kevin first. 4)Speaking of showing cards to Kevin first, in speaking with my friend Bill Goodwin he said any cards I wanted to buy could be run through Kevin--absolutely no problem--not sure he was referring to cards on auction or just those for sale. 5)Had a long talk with Dave Forman who was of course delighted to see I had bought 4 SGC cards and even more delighted to hear I would be collecting all my vintage golf in SGC--at least to thec extent possible. Biggest smile I have ever seen on him. Dave said that February was his best month ever and was optimistic March would be equally good. He did not attribute it to PSA's half grade policy change. He was of course delighted to have Derek Grady working for him full time. 6)Gave my first batch of cards to PSA for a review. My 1963 Fleer set(67 psa 8s). All the chatter around the show was how difficult getting the 8.5s were. 7)Aside from the gentlemen mentioned I chatted with Ted Z who is a delightful guy, Joe Tauriello from Set Builders who is a very nice man. met the famous Bruce Dorskind, spoke with long-time dealer Wayne Varner who bemoaned the fact(also mentioned by others) of how difficult it is to obtain high-grade vintage cards, long time friend Peter Lalos(Champs and Bums) who said he was getting more and more into non-sports. Among others I said hello to were JP Cohen, Brian Drent, Locker Room guy and a few others who I am forgetting. 8)The only unpleasant thing was seeing Alan Rosen standing by the entrance looking to grab anyone who looked like they may be selling cards--yuck. Overall, a great way to spend half a day. Jim

Archive

03-01-2008, 12:25 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliNow this thread officially goes into the Hall of Fame. -Al

Archive

03-01-2008, 12:28 PM

Posted By: Aaron Patton ...does putting this in the HOF...mean all Jim's cards will go up? Peter??

Archive

03-01-2008, 12:48 PM

Posted By: leonWhomever the person was that logged in as Peter C got banned (again?) and his post deleted.....anyone that is banned, or is an anonymous troll, will have their post deleted and be banned immediately.....For the record I never had that much of an issue with him...I had much more issue with a few others...regards

Archive

03-01-2008, 01:17 PM

Posted By: BobFirst time on this thread. Just wondering why no one has commented on the video link that was submitted about 10 posts ago. I watched it but almost turned it off when I saw Oprah (she is only on for about 15 seconds before the dying man's lecture. Truly amazing. Hope others watch it. Jim- Say what you want about John (Wonka) he is a helluva nice guy and has never posted an arrogant post or belittled anyone other than those whose balloon's needed a little puncturing. I think this whole thing comes down to the old "armpit of the hobby" issue. There are some very nice guys who are Registry guys and collect the highest grade of cards but if I want to share a beer or talk about the hobby, give me a vg guy any day. Some of us have collections a helluva lot nicer than you think....