PSA- Are you kidding me???

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Last Fall, I purchased 2 "missing red ink" T206 cards (Ritchey and Barbeau) from a Lew Lipset auction. I submitted them once to PSA and the "missing red ink" language appeared nowhere on the label. I re-submitted them at the recent SF show and received an email today, refusing to use that language, because "[t]he graders do not feel this is a “MISSING RED INK."<br /> <br />No red ink means no red ink, no? PSA has included that language on other T206 cards, where the lack of color was no more dramatic than on mine.<br /> <br />I have emailed JO twice. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>scans?

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i can't see scans, but your best bet is to put together a little package for Joe Orlando, complete with scans of other examples they have slabbed before. if yours looks similar to those, then you should be in good shape...

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Are your cards variations, or print errors?<br /><br />I think the "missing red ink" T206 cards, like Fred Beck and Beals Becker, are considered variations, as opposed to printing errors, and that's why the designation appears on the slab.<br /><br />I don't think PSA or SGC will specially label every card that is missing a color. Why the distinction? Not exactly sure, but perhaps there are enough "no red ink" Becks and Beckers out there for collectors to pursue, and therefore it made sense to designate and checklist those as variations. Whereas, your no red ink T206s may be unique.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I had to f/u my emails with a voicemail (x 170 me thinks) to get him to make Laura Rosenberg call me. If you want results, try Laura@collectors.com. She got things donewithout attitude.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Thanks to everyone for their responses thus far.<br /><br />I don't have scans, as the cards are still with PSA and I didn't scan them beforehand. As for the distinction between a "variation" and "print error," I cannot say, but as pointed out, I'm not sure what the general distinction is.<br /><br />I'm taking everyone's advice thus far and will let you know what happens!

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>It was funny at the National when one of the registry guys was showing me a card that he thought deserved a higher grade. So, he called Joe Orlando's cell phone & Joe said to come over to the PSA booth right then. WOW !!! Great service !!! Do all the registry guys have Joe's cell phone # ?

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Just my opinion:<br /><br />There are so many different types of variations in color and hue that asking a grading company to designate such differences is probably not a good idea. I can't imagine that the grading services understand these differences because they are not experts in the hobby. They are there to determine the authenticity and render their opinion on the condition of the card. Asking them to do more would be difficult because it seems difficult enough to just have them grade the cards. This would put a bigger target on them because people will then begin debating the subjective nature of color differences and how the grading companies determine what shade of red becomes orange or pink. <br /><br />There are enough color variations in just the T206 series alone. Pretty soon people will be debating the colors red and pink (for example the E90-1 Keeler). People that understand color variations will be able to render their own opinions about the hue differences. Let the grading companies do what they have to do and let the buyer determine what they think the nuances in color differnce is worth to them. <br /><br />Again, that's just my opinion.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I have a vintage golf card with a variation. I was not sure if PSA would acknowledge the variation on the flip.<br /><br />So.... I emailed customer support ahead of time. With my email, I attached scans and I also explained why the card should have the variation designation on the flip.<br /><br />My email was routed to the correct person - and that person told me the variation would be acknowledged on the flip.<br />She asked that I print out our email correspondence and attach it to the order.<br />She also asked that I make the order go to a specific person's attention.<br /><br /><br />It was a pretty smooth process, and I was impressed with PSAs customer support.<br /><br /><br />In short, for future efforts - or possibly even with this card again -<br />I would suggest prior email correspondence stating your case - and get an emailed approval ahead of time that you can attach to the order.<br /><br /><br />Regards,<br />Joe<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>From PSA:<br /><br />"Hello again, <br /><br />We will be adding the “missing red ink” after all. We had not seen these particular cards with the missing ink before. This order should be shipping out within the next day or so.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Thank you."<br /><br />And thanks to everyone for the advice!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>great news and a pleasant reply. Whom was the contact person.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>to answer your earlier question...<br /><br />any card in the set can be missing ink (they are printer's scraps, where the full range of colors were not printed, they are tuffer to find, and command major premiums), the boston players missing red (sweeney, beck, niles, etc) are the most commonly found, but you could have a plank missing ink, and it should be noted or labeld as "missing ink", they are not rare variations, they are rare printing freaks...

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Steve- Ms. Rosenberg did promply reply to my email!

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>IMO there is no possible numerical grade except a 1 "poor" because the card has a major flaw. I have seen both major services grade the freaks with numbers as though the flaw doesn't matter and then label them as to the flaws. The Board's thoughts on how to slab these sorts of cards? Note that I'm not talking about variations like the Magie, but about cards missing elements or created with mistakes in the printing process. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>PSA & SGC will slab such cards as "AUTHENTIC" only. they will also add "missing ink", etc...i just had my color printer's scrap (yellow ink only) graded as well as my knight miscut...both were slabbed "A"...<br /><br />p.s. i dealt with Sean from SGC at Reading, he was great. i also had the pleasure of talking with Dave Forman for awhile, top notch company...

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Posted By: <b>Denny Walsh</b><p>JoeD is correct... It took me 4 times with this card & I wound up doing exactly the exact same thing as he did and PSA worked Brilliantly to accomplish this a few times. (The Letter thing works.) Don't give up with PSA.... Don't ever give up!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1204666393.JPG"> <br /><br />Unfortunatly, I sold it to fund something else....<br />Only, if I remember correctly, the other thing didn't workout... Now I just wish I new who had it? <br />Board member I Hope!!!<br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>J Hull</b><p>FWIW, I've been told on two separate occasions by folks from SGC that they would not note missing ink colors unless the card was a cataloged variation (e.g. Heinie Wagner or Bill Sweeney). I'm not sure that isn't the right policy, and they were pretty settled in it.<br /> <br /> <br /><img src="http://jimonym.com/Images/NilesA.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>J, There's a very light "BOSTON" across the jersey. Is it likely the machine was severly low on red ink that particular pass?

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>You guys kill me. "Is it a variation or print error" Glad I was sitting down when I read that. THEY ARE ALL JUST MISSING THE RED INK! There is only ONE true variation in the T206 set and that is Magee/Magie. The die breaks and printing mishaps are not variations. And WHO CARES if PSA slabs it?? Are you collecting or trying to hit lotto???? Everyone that saw my T206 set this weekend saw a ton of these printing freaks, I have a page full of the yellow only ones. And proudly they will never be in slabs as long as I am breathing. Why do you need some idiot who doesn't know what it is to label it a "no red"? You know what it is and so does the educated collectors. INCREDIBLE!

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"any card in the set can be missing ink (they are printer's scraps, where the full range of colors were not printed, they are tuffer to find, and command major premiums), the boston players missing red (sweeney, beck, niles, etc) are the most commonly found, but you could have a plank missing ink, and it should be noted or labeld as "missing ink", they are not rare variations, they are rare printing freaks..."<br /><br />Dan, as you can see from my post earlier today, i agree totally with what you are saying...they are ALL missing ink...not variations... <br /><br />p.s. J Hull- this weekend, SGC slabbed this card "Authentic" "missing ink"<br /><br />they said they had not done it before, but mine was the first to be noted as such.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1204668208.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I was responding to PC's post - "<br /><br />Are your cards variations, or print errors?<br /><br />I think the "missing red ink" T206 cards, like Fred Beck and Beals Becker, are considered variations, as opposed to printing errors, and that's why the designation appears on the slab. "<br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Mike, where did you get that Sweeney? What idiot would have sold that w/o having it slabbed first?? and mike, I must warn you my friend, agreeing with me on this board may lead to you being in the minority! <P>It was great meeting you in person and please give Scott and Hank my best, Dan.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I just noticed you had that slabbed Mike! That is great! Michael of SGC just got done telling me that SGC does not slab any scraps. I guess he meant to say that SGC does not slab any of Dan Mckee's scraps? Have I ever stated that I love grading?

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Michael -<br /><br />as you know, I can attest to SGC not slabbing printer's scraps prior to yours.<br /><br />My white Chase (well, I mean Jeff's white Chase) - I tried on more than one occasion to convince SGC to slab it - but they would not.<br />Sometimes I think SGCs strength (cautious nature) trickles over and becomes a weakness from time to time.<br /><br /><br />Dan - in many respects I am with you on not feeling a need for someone else to tell me my card is nice (aka grades from grading companies) -<br /><br />BUT - I do like slabbing cards. Maybe it is the Felix Unger in me. I like that my cards are nice and neat and labeled and can't get damaged with handling by my kids.<br />And it sure makes selling them a whole lot easier.<br /><br />What I do miss out on is the touch of the card. Handling a raw card is a lot more pleasing than handling a slab.<br />Sort of like the difference between sitting on a comfy couch.... or sitting on a couch wrapped in plastic.<br /><br />If it means anything, Dan - my favorite card is graded 'AUTHENTIC' and I wouldn't like it any more if it was a '9'.<br /><br /><br /><br />Now.... do you think my 14" panorama will fit in a slab? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />edit:<br />Dan said: "I must warn you my friend, agreeing with me on this board may lead to you being in the minority!"<br />I say: If a line is drawn in the sand.... I sure would rather be on Dan's side of the line.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>dan, thanks for the color error (or do i thank scott & hank?) <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />anyway, it was great meeting you as well, your T206 binder is the stuff that dreams are made of (ok, i don't mean to get sappy here)...<br /><br />Joe- you'll be happy to know that i brought the scan of your (i mean Jeff's) PSA AUTH Chase and showed them, that is what finally sold them to do it...thanks! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Dan -- the Becker, Beck, Ferguson, Lindaman, Sweeney and Heine Wagner cards are accepted by many T206 collectors as variations, not simply print errors. Every complete T206 checklist I have seen notes those particular missing ink cards as variations.<br /><br />Are they all print errors? Yes. As are all the broken plate cards, like Murr'y. But that doesn't answer Cobby's original question as to why PSA did not initially slab Cobby's cards with "missing ink" on the flip (when they do for Becker, et al) -- and I beleived the reason was those cards were not accepted by PSA (or SGC) as variations.<br /><br />Apparently you don't accept any of them as variations, and that's fine. I'm only 80% done with the set, and when it's done, then I'll worry about the missing ink cards and other so-called variations on the checklist (maybe).<br /><br />edited to ask: why do you think the Magie is the only true variation?<br /><br />and edited to add: just noticed JHull's post above: "FWIW, I've been told on two separate occasions by folks from SGC that they would not note missing ink colors unless the card was a cataloged variation (e.g. Heinie Wagner or Bill Sweeney)." This is consistent with what I said in my original post, and also answers Cobby's original question.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"Joe- you'll be happy to know that i brought the scan of your (i mean Jeff's) PSA AUTH Chase and showed them, that is what finally sold them to do it...thanks!"<br /><br /><br />Michael are you suggesting that SGC follows PSAs lead? <br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1204671155.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1204671189.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Joe-<br /><br />No, i don't think SGC is following PSA's lead. i just think they realized there's no reason why they shouldn't slab these cards, especially since they do it "across the street"...

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>If Kevin Saucier is reading -- how difficult would it be to alter cards to reproduce the various print errors displayed on this thread?<br /><br />Are some more difficult than others? For example, is it more difficult to take a red "B" off a shirt, or remove most of the color from a card?

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Posted By: <b>Louis Bollman</b><p>I ran into an issue with a T206 print error / flaw about 18 months ago that neither PSA nor SGC would address on their labels. The card was (is, I still have the card) a Clark Griffith Portrait that is missing about 40% of name and / or team (it has been a while since I've even looked at it). Both companies agreed that it was not altered but neither company would note it on the label. My position was that it was no different than the "nodgrass" except that it is far more pronounced and noticeable than any "nodgrass" that I have seen.<br /><br />I never tried the email campaign with either company. Actually, I never really pushed the issue so the card remains in the holder that PSA originally returned it to me in ( I forget it's either a 4 or a 5 just glad to have the card).<br /><br />I do think that my Griffith is in not nearly as pronounced in appearance as the missing ink cards that have been the subject of most of this thread but it is, at least, an undisputed full production card that has not been altered to remove ink (the card came in a group of about 150 T206 and T205 cards from outside the hobby).<br /><br />The position that both PSA and SGC took was kind of odd to me; both stated that if it showed up in a price guide / reference book as a variation then they would note the variation on the label. This was odd to me due to the fact that the grading companies see more cards than those that publish the books at this point. I wonder if this card turned up 30 years ago (and was noted by Frank Nagy or Buck Barker) would it be in the books as a variation today or not.<br /><br />Just some thoughts, I take no position either way. In my feeble attempts at collecting I just like owning a card that I've seen fewer times than say a Wagner.<br /><br />Louis Bollman<br />louis@louisbollman.com<br /><br />p.s. I am in no way comparing my Griffith to a Wagner but it has to be better than a Doyle (kidding of course).<br />

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Posted By: <b>Denny Walsh</b><p>Louis, <br /> Would You mind scanning your Griffth Card for Us? I'm sure we all would Love to it!<br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>Louis Bollman</b><p>I'll try to post it tonight or tomorrow, I'll have to dig it out first. Also, keep in mind I am not the most computer savvy person so I may have to try to figure out how to post the image (I should be able to figure it out but I am often amazed at how inept I really am...hope that's good for a laugh).<br /><br />Louis Bollman<br />louis@louisbollman.com

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Posted By: <b>Louis Bollman</b><p>Hope this worked!<br /><br />Louis<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1204866432.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1204866415.JPG">