PDA

View Full Version : T206 Sweet Cap/Hindu/Old Mill Factory 649


Archive
02-25-2008, 10:15 AM
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I have often wondered why there is a factory # this high on some Sweet Cap and other brand backs. Most Factory No.s on T cards seem to have 2 digits but here we have three and a # way out of sequence as well. T208 has a three digit factory # (141) and it's tobacco was packaged pretty far North in NY State (Syracuse). But 649?<br /><br />Now, Factory #'s had to be shown on items packaged with tobacco products for a span of years in the US, presumably so the gummint could track product for taxation purposes. So, some questions:<br /><br />1) Is there a comprehensive list anywhere of all the factories and districts associated with ATC?<br /><br />2) Were the factory #'s assigned to ensure proper taxes were paid (i.e. did the # correspond with US Customs zones or some such thing)?<br /><br />3) Is the fact 649's are overprinted on Sweet Caps and Old Mills but not Hindu significant? It seems to indicate already printed cards were shifted to another factory for distribution. But why?<br /><br />4) Was Factory 649 product intended for export outside the US or its region?<br /><br />5) As 649's are the sole District 1 Sweet Caps, does this mean anything?<br /><br />6) Where was NY District 3 (no backs in T206)?<br /><br />7) How did Old Mill Southern League get into the mix at Factory 649? Does this support the "export outside of region" theory?<br /><br />Any insight appreciated!

Archive
02-25-2008, 11:29 AM
Posted By: <b>Craig W</b><p>Here's what Scot Reader says about the factories in his "Inside T206". It really doesn't answer your questions, so hopefully others can provide more info.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Craig<br /><br /><br />D. Factories<br />The backs of most T206 cards identify the factory where they were produced. T206<br />cards were sourced from either six or seven ATC factories, depending on whether one<br />counts the mysterious “Factory 33” where the Ty Cobb back originated. These seven<br />factories were identified by number and operated in four different states. They are:<br />Factory 6 in Ohio, Factory 17 in Virginia, Factory 25 in Virginia, Factory 30 in New<br />York, Factory 33 in North Carolina, Factory 42 in North Carolina and Factory 649 in<br />New York.<br /><br />Most American Beauties and Piedmonts were made at Factory 25, with a relatively<br />small number later made at Factory 42. Broad Leafs, Carolina Brights, Cycles and<br />Drums and Sovereigns were produced only at Factory 25. El Principe de Gales cards<br />originated only from Factory 17. Hindus were made exclusively at Factory 649, while<br />Lenoxes were made only at Factory 30. Most Old Mills came from Factory 25, with a<br />scant few possibly emanating from Factory 649. All Polar Bears were manufactured at<br />Factory 6. Sweet Caporals were initially made at Factories 25, 30 and 649, with<br />Factory 42 being added later. Tolstois and Uzits originated solely from Factory 30.As mentioned, the handful of known examples with the Ty Cobb back—if they are<br />T206 cards at all—identify Factory 33 as their place of origin.<br /><br />Table 1: T206 Brand/Factory Combinations<br />Factory No. State Brands<br />6 OH Polar Bear<br />17 VA El Principe de Gales<br />25 VA American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Carolina Brights, Cycle,<br />Drum, Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal<br />30 NY Sweet Caporal, Tolstoi, Uzit<br />33 NC Ty Cobb<br />42 NC American Beauty, Piedmont, Sweet Caporal<br />649 NY Hindu, Old Mill, Sweet Caporal<br /><br />In some cases, the production site for T206 cards correlates with local cigarette brand<br />preferences of the day. For example, Piedmont cigarettes were popular in the<br />southeastern United States, which may explain why the vast majority of Piedmontbranded<br />T206 cards were produced in Virginia. Sweet Caporal cigarettes were<br />favored in the Northeast, providing an economic rationale for producing most of those cards in New York.<br />

Archive
02-25-2008, 11:56 AM
Posted By: <b>J Hull</b><p>The revenue laws since the late 19th century had required tax agents to maintain a list of tobacco manufacturers (which was defined very broadly and included every kind of processed or commercialized tobacco product) and to assign them factory numbers. Other revenue and tariff laws and state tax laws required other factories (tobacco manufacturer or not) to be numbered and tracked also. I haven't been able to determine whether 649 means tobacco factory number 649 or just plain factory 649 of the revenue district. <br /> <br />All good questions, but I guess I really can only answer #2. The districts were revenue districts created to help organize the collection of internal revenue (taxes).<br /> <br />

Archive
02-25-2008, 05:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />These are very good questions that I have not been able to find answers to after some looking.<br /><br />I would also mention that I think that the theory that T206 cards were printed at a central location and then distributed to the various factories for packaging has merit; and so to the extent my earlier writing suggests that the factory identifies where the cards were printed that suggestion is probably incorrect. If I had a do-over I would substitute the words "distributed" and "distribution" for "produced" and "production".<br /><br />Scot

Archive
02-25-2008, 05:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Geno</b><p>Dave --<br /><br />Just in case you were unaware, Factory 649 is the most common back in the T202 set. All T202s are Hassan backs, with either 649 or 30 as the factory number. I've always wondered where they were and what's there now...<br /><br />Take Care,<br />Geno

Archive
02-26-2008, 01:58 AM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Joseph Knapp bought up many existing lithograph companies in 1892 and formed the American Lithographic Company (in NYC).<br /> James B. Duke (American Tobacco Company) and Joseph Knapp were very close friends and also business associates. Therefore,<br /> I think we can safely assume that Am. Litho. not only printed the T206's....but, all the Premium cards (Flags, Military men, etc.)<br /> that were inserted in tobacco packs during the early part of the 20th Century.<br /><br />The American Lithographic Co. was situated in a 13-story building (built in 1895) at 230 Park Ave South in NYC. And, this building<br /> still stands at this site in NYC.<br /><br />TED Z

Archive
02-29-2008, 07:19 AM
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Geno:<br /><br />Thanks for reminding me of that as it shows T206 is not the only Factory 649 set/back; your post sends me off on some related issues as well (been away a few days so catching up on some prior points made here and elsewhere as well).<br /><br />The theory that tobacco factories were consecutively numbered as licensed is a possibility I think but #649 is still way up there numerically.<br /><br />I once Googled the Syracuse, NY address of Cullivan's Fireside (T208) since it is on the card backs and the map showed the entire area, near a good rail line and some water if I'm not mistaken, was redeveloped into a residential neighborhood, presumably some time after WW2.<br /><br />There must be a record somewhere (maybe Duke University?) of all the factories and their physical addresses. The ATC archive must reside somewhere, I've just never investigated exactly where.

Archive
02-29-2008, 09:34 AM
Posted By: <b>Craig W</b><p><a href="http://www.ibiblio.org/dukehome/family.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.ibiblio.org/dukehome/family.html</a><br /><a href="http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0007-6805(196921)43%3A1%3C59%3AOOTATC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0007-6805(196921)43%3A1%3C59%3AOOTATC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2</a><br /><a href="http://supreme.justia.com/us/221/106/case.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://supreme.justia.com/us/221/106/case.html</a><br /><br />None of these links provide an answer to the Factory 649 question, but they do have some good general info.<br /><br />The first link is about the Duke family and the formation of ATC.<br /><br />The second link says there were 5 original companies, and then ATC acquired another 250 companies. In my opinion, it's possible that one of these companies had a factory in NY that ATC decided to name as #649, but as for their number system, we still don't know why.<br /><br />The third link is about the supreme court anti-trust case against ATC.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Craig

Archive
02-29-2008, 10:24 AM
Posted By: <b>J Hull</b><p>I seem to recall in reading what I could find on ATC, that they had NY locations (at the least) in New York City and in Rochester. I've assumed Factory 649 was in New York City, which had many tobacco manufacturing locations (especially cigar makers) during that time period. I have no idea whether it had 649 of them, but I have no problem believing it had at least 649 manufacturing establishments.<br /> <br />I also used to assume that the factory numbers were designated by ATC, but as I mentioned above, actually they were imposed upon ATC by the U.S. Treasury through the Bureau of Internal Revenue. I've done some research on tobacco regulation of that era, and it's really amazing how much regulation there was. The Revenue Bureau published a volume on the tobacco industry every few years during that era. Those books might shed some light on some of these matters. The only place I know of that still has copies, however, is the Library of Congress.<br />