Subtle differences in the T206 set's 15 repeated designs [Archive]

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01-18-2008, 09:17 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisAmerican Lithographic Company in NYC designed the 522 cards in the T206 set by producing 507 different "gems" of artwork. Two were captioned erroneously (Magie & Doyle Nat'l) so they are just "misfits" of the 507. Of the 15, the first 11 repeated designs shown here are variations of the original ones issued in the the 150 Series. These repeated designs (or "twins") have different background colors, uniform changes, or reflect a team change (and some are slightly cropped from their 150 Series counterpart). The first 6 subjects (of the 11) on display here are the SUPER PRINTS which are in the 350/460 Series and can be found with as many as 24 different Tobacco brand backs representative of the 350/460 Series (except that their American Beauty 350 back is the Frame version, and these 6 cards do not exist with American Beauty 460 backs). ....................150 Series.......................350 Series................460 Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a3sixsuperprints.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a6sixsuperprints.jpg"> ...................150 Series.......................350-only Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abrowdahlelbelund.jpg"> ...................150 Series.......................350 Series..................460 Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abrownkleinsmith.jpg"> ................................................35 0-only Series..................460 Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ademmittoharax.jpg"> These St. Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/demmitt.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ohara.jpg"> TED Z

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01-18-2008, 10:25 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSome of the repeated designs are identical or nearly so, like Kleinow and Elberfeld, but others have considerable cropping and color differences, such as Chase and M.Brown. And one of the most interesting is the Cobb, which is identical except for the spacing of the serifs in the "D" on the jersey.

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01-18-2008, 10:25 AM

Posted By: robert aI guess Schulte front view with Chicago instead of Cubs would've been another one had it made the cut. Rob

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01-18-2008, 11:00 AM

Posted By: barry arnoldFascinating,illuminative work as always, TRex. The Matty faces look so different to me, compared to the rest of the crowd. Any idea why? Or am I staring at it a bit too autohypnotically!! best, barry

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01-18-2008, 11:04 AM

Posted By: peter ullmannice work Ted...card talk...how unusual!!! The Cobb/Matty poses to me also look quite different from each other. It must be the eyes! pete in mn

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01-18-2008, 11:17 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCit is refreshing to actually discuss cards themselves, thanks ted. they might have used 2 different artists on the chase & matty? the faces look so different in both. just a thought.

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01-18-2008, 11:29 AM

Posted By: Trae R.Mr. Z., I look forward to meeting you some day. Thanks for all you do. I always enjoy your posts! ------------------------------------------------- All Things T206: <a href="http://www.T206.org" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.T206.org</a> eBay Made Easy: <a href="http://www.PreWarAuctions.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.PreWarAuctions.com</a> T205.org Coming Soon!

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01-18-2008, 12:55 PM

Posted By: DMcDTed's post is one for the N54 Archives imho.

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01-18-2008, 01:52 PM

Posted By: PCNeed to add Bender trees/no trees to the list.

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01-18-2008, 02:28 PM

Posted By: J HullEvery time I see those two Lundgren cards side by side it makes me scratch my head. He's the only player in the set pictured with both a major league team and a minor league team. Why him?

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01-18-2008, 02:47 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisCarl Lundgren's Major League pitching career ended early in 1909. Then, when ATC was designing the 350-only Series for release in 1910....they included his Minor League card (since they already had the Litho of his 150 Series card). However, they mainly printed his KC card with Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350 Fac. 30 backs. Very rarely it can be found with a Carolina Brights and El Principe de Gales back. So, with this card es- sentially available with only 2 backs, it too, is not as easy to find as others in the 350 Series. TED Z

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01-18-2008, 03:51 PM

Posted By: Alan UThis is a great post! The Matty does look almost like a different artist, but I think the Chase has just been tilted upright a little bit to the left.

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01-18-2008, 05:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI didn't include the two Chief Bender cards in this list of "twin" poses since there are sufficient dif- ferences between these two poses to suggest that there were two separate artistic renderings. What has always struck me as being strange......is why they removed the tree background in the subsequent printing of this card ? Perhaps, Scot Reader can chime in here on this question ? ......................................350-only Series............................................ ........350/460 Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abender2.jpg"> TED Z edited scan size Scan lost....edited to restore scan.

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01-18-2008, 05:37 PM

Posted By: PCI think the Benders were both rendered from the same photograph, although the artistic differences are greater than the other examples. The Mattys seem different to almost the same extent. Similar to the two Benders, the Matty faces are different, the poses are angled differently, the belts, etc.

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01-18-2008, 06:27 PM

Posted By: Jim ParkerOk, forgive me for this newbie question but I haven't seen it mentioned in other threads, but can the great T-Rex please help me understand why the t206 designers considered it a 460 series? Do we have a good handle on how ATC came to the figure of 460 subjects, when there were in fact 522 cards total? Is it as simple as there were 62 cards that happen to be of subjects already accounted for in the set (like the 4 cobbs)? I have been following Ted's every post for years now and just now it occurred to me that I don't know where the number 460 came from.

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01-18-2008, 07:10 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI started a post about the six super prints a few months back, focused primarily on the question of why did they need to repaint those six cards for the mass production? Why not just issue them en masse? And if you were going to repaint Matty, why use a different artist, which to me, it is clear they did.... Unanswerable questions, I know, but that's why I love the #521. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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01-18-2008, 07:47 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJIM P First, let's start with a 522 card T206 set (no Magie or Joe Doyle error). Then, we remove the 48 Southern Leaguers and the 15 Repeats; therefore....522 - 48 - 15 = 459 Initial Designs The American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1909 initially planned the 150 Series to consist of 150 cards. The 2nd Series (1910) ATC planned to add another 200 cards. So, the total (150 + 200), hence the "350 Series". The 3rd series ATC planned for a total of 110 cards (150 + 200 + 110), hence "460 Series". However, the actual number of Subjects (or designs) in these series is as follows...... Initial Designs 155........150 Series 201........350 Series 103........460 Series ____ 459......total Initial Designs .48......So. Lge. additional Designs ____ 507......Set total T-Rex TED

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01-18-2008, 07:53 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishPersonally, I've always wondered about backs that state 350-460 subjects. Always thought that was a little bizarre.

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01-18-2008, 08:14 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisAs you know....the "350-460" labeling only applies to the Piedmont and Sweet Caporal backs. The American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, and Sovereign backs are strictly "460". My understanding regarding the "350-460" labeling is that it initially applied to the interim series that we identify as the 350/460 Series which includes 61 subjects. TED Z

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01-18-2008, 08:22 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishI guess those backs just show how dynamic the production of the set was. Still, they strike me as being wishy washy....different times for sure.

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01-18-2008, 08:36 PM

Posted By: JantzGreat stuff. Thanks for sharing. I have a question though. Do you take personal checks? Seriously though, thanks for taking the time to post this info for us. I always learn something from your T206 posts. Jantz

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01-18-2008, 09:50 PM

Posted By: barry arnoldthanks for the clarification re: the Lundgren KC. i have the Carolina Brights back and have only seen a couple in the last couple of years. super work,Ted. best, barry

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01-19-2008, 04:34 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Barry, I have Lundgren with both backs: <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0019-3.jpg"> <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0018-5.jpg"> <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0016-3.jpg"> Both are very tough.... And Barry let me know if you ever want to part with yours.... Be well Brian

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01-19-2008, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Jason LThat first column of the 6 super-prints have more white in their eyes than does that second column. Those eyes are certainly a differentiating characteristic for those cards. Very interesting to see them lined up like this.

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01-19-2008, 08:58 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI have observed that the colors in the 2nd Series (350) are richer in color (especially BLUE) than the 150 Series. Other than the Waddell portrait in the 150 Series there are no deep Blue colors to be found in the 150 Series....such as the Blue Chase portrait. Also, the 150 Series Elberfeld (NY) has Brown eyes....while the 350 Series Elberfeld (Washington portrait) has Blue eyes. TED Z

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01-19-2008, 09:53 AM

Posted By: barry arnoldBrian W thanks for letting me see your CB and EPDG. they're beauts. i doubt i'll ever part with mine but if i do decide to my Tarheel buddy will be the first to hear! best, barry

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01-19-2008, 02:16 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for the kind words. Perhaps, we'll run into each other at the National in Chicago. Or, the Philly Show in Reading, PA or the Cooperstown Show in the VFW Bldg. on HOF weekend. TED Z

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01-20-2008, 05:40 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHey guys and gals........I thought this was a Vintage Base Ball card Forum ? Or, did I enter the wrong website....did I click unto a forum on the derivatives of OIL....namely PLASTICS ? Can we get back to basic cardboard and paper reflections of our favorite players or sets in this hobby...... namely BB cards ? ? T-Rex TED

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01-21-2008, 05:08 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYour observation is very astute...... "The Cobb/Matty poses to me also look quite different from each other. It must be the eyes!" A 6-color process was used to print the T206's. Joseph Knapp, the founder of the American Litho. Co., invented the multi-color, 6 cylinder press that produced these cards. The 3rd phase of the process in the printing of the T206's was the application of Brown ink. It appears that more Brown ink used in the printing of the 1st (150) series than they did in the 2nd (350) series. This is evident with respect to the eyes and eyebrows in the 1st series Matty (white cap) card, when compared with the eyes of the 2nd series Matty (dark cap).....close-up scan of the Matty's will follow. Now, let's apply this theory by comparing the Green Cobb with the Red Cobb...... The eyes of the Green Cobb are Brown, his hair is darker, and the Detroit logo on his uniform is Brown. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/cobbcobbps.jpg"> While the eyes of the Red Cobb are Blue, his hair color is lighter, and the "D" on his uniform is Grayish. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/acobbtycobb.jpg"> TED Z

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01-22-2008, 07:24 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for the kind words.....but, why do you ask....." Do you take personal checks? " TED Z

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01-22-2008, 07:24 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisA close-up scan of both the Matty's illustrates the difference in the application of Brown ink between the 1st and 2nd Series. The eyes and eyebrows in the 1st series Matty (white cap) card are accented with Brown coloring. It appears to give him a more youthful look. The facial features of the 2nd Series Matty (dark cap) are lacking any accenting in his eye area, which creates an illusion of different artwork. But not so, this picture of Matty was very popular in 1908-10. It is the same picture that is on the cover page of his Testimonial Tribute piece. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abmattyt206.jpg"> TED Z

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01-22-2008, 01:58 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI completely agree that the Matty Dark Cap is the pose that is most prevalent in Matty's other issues. He is skinnier, with more classical features under his dark cap. Under his white cap, however, he is pudgier, with different facial features than his dark capped twin. It is for this reason that I think two different artists drew up these Matty cards. Though I obviously also agree that different ink was used in each. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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01-23-2008, 05:53 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisPAUL M No argument here.....it appears that the T206 designers (or Amer. Litho. printers) got carried away with BROWN ink in their 1st Series. As we well know Matty had Blue eyes; and, the Matty portrait in this series does depict him with lighter colored eyes. So, the Matty (white cap) is a strange printing. Blue-eyed Cobb is another example of 1st Series Brown eyes vs 2nd Series Blue eyes (see above scans). TED Z

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01-23-2008, 06:44 AM

Posted By: MattThe artist of Matty's T3 seems to have combined aspect of both the dark cap and white cap version of the T206, with the skinny face of the dark cap, but the cap is white and the collar has the shadowing from the white cap T206.

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01-23-2008, 07:09 AM

Posted By: MikeI'm inclined (pun intended) to agree with you, Paul - that the differences go beyond simple variations in the ink (which are there, no doubt). I'd go as far as to say that all six Super-prints are re-drawn - if not by another artist, at least by the same artist from the same pose, just "re-done". Chase throwing is different in all same ways as Matty Dark/White Cap. His portrait has the same facial pudginess, composition and "tilt-of-the-head" differences, too, only they're slighter. Chance portrait is even closer (as are Evers and Cobb), but it just "feels" different in a "*blink*" sort of way. I know this was discussed in some detail on one of your threads before (October) to uncertain results... maybe the Photoshop gurus that helped resolve the ghost image resolutions can work some similar magic on these "twins". -- Mike

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01-24-2008, 12:11 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisMATT My impression is that the T3 Matty is essentially the same artwork found on the White Cap Matty..... in that his hair color is light and the eye area coloration is the same. The only difference is that they added the NY lettering found in the Dark Cap pose on his chest and sleeve. And, I think the fuller face appearance on the White Cap Matty is due to the lack of "reddish rouge" that makes the face of the Dark Cap Matty to appear thinner. What really puzzles me here, in comparing these three pictures, is that the White Cap Matty card was designed as early as 1908. While the T3 was issued in 1910-11....so why didn't they use the Dark Cap Matty artwork for the T3 ? Turkey Red (T3) card of Christy Mathewson <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/amattyt3.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abmattyt206.jpg"> TED Z

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01-24-2008, 01:08 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisReprised American Lithographic Company in NYC designed the 522 cards in the T206 set by producing 507 different gems of artwork. Two were captioned erroneously (Magie & Joe Doyle) so they are just "misfits" of the 507. Therefore, 15 of the 522 are repeated designs (or "twins"). Of these 15 designs, 11 were initially issued in the the 150 Series, and with their twins are first shown here. These twins have different background colors, uniform changes, or reflect a team change (some are slightly cropped from their 150 Series counterparts). The first 6 subjects displayed here are the SUPER PRINTS.....which were issued in the 350/460 Series; and, can be found with as many as 24 various Tobacco backs representative of the 350/460 Series (except their American Beauty 350 back is the Frame version. Also, these 6 cards do not exist with American Beauty 460 backs). ....................150 Series.......................350 Series................460 Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a3sixsuperprints.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a6sixsuperprints.jpg"> ...................150 Series.......................350-only Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abrowdahlelbelund.jpg"> ...................150 Series.......................350 Series..................460 Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abrownkleinsmith.jpg"> ................................................35 0-only Series..................460 Series <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ademmittoharax.jpg"> These St. Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/demmitt.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ohara.jpg"> TED Z

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02-19-2008, 07:02 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisT206 collectors have asked....why the 150, 350, 460 Subjects in the three Series of the T206 issue since there are 524 cards. I think this can be explained by looking at the entire set in terms of its "designs". Given a complete T206 set of 524 cards, let's first remove Magie & Joe Doyle errors; hence 522 subjects Then, we remove the 48 Southern Leaguers and the 15 Repeated designs; therefore....522 - 48 - 15 = 459 Initial Designs The American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1909 initially planned the 150 Series to consist of 150 designs. The 2nd Series (1910) ATC planned to add another 200 designs. So, the total (150 + 200), hence the "350 Series". The 3rd series (late 1910 to early 1911) ATC planned for a total of 110 designs (150 + 200 + 110), hence "460 Series". However, the actual number of designs in these series is as follows...... Initial Designs 155........150 Series 200........350 Series 104........460 Series (56..350/460 + 48..460-only) ____ 459......total Initial Designs .48......So. Lge. additional Designs ____ 507......Set total Designs TED Z

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02-19-2008, 07:24 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldThat sounds reasonable, Ted. The Old Mill Southern Leaguers have "Base Ball Series Selection from Texas, South Atlantic, Virginia and Southern Leagues" I think the Hindu's have "Base Ball Subjects Large Assortment" But the Piedmont cards have "Base Ball Series 350 Subjects" I agree with the math... chronologically, are the Southern Leaguers before, after or contemporary with the 350 series??

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02-19-2008, 12:04 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe initial Southern League series of 42 Subjects (South Atlantic, Southern & Virginia Leaguers) must of closely coin- cided with the 150 Series. Scot Reader's research tells us this and a huge find of 400+ T206's reinforces this. Several years ago I was fortunate to acquire this original T206 collection from So. Carolina, which consisted of 388 cards (all Piedmont 150 backs) and 26 Southern Leaguers (all with Old Mill backs). Also, in 1909 ATC started printing the 150 Series cards with Brown Hindu backs and this included the Southern Lger. series. However, our resident Net54 Hindu expert, Brian Weisner, accounts for just 37 of the 42 Subjects. So, it looks like 5 of these So. Lgers. are Hindu "no prints". Subsequently, in 1910 when the 350 Series was issued, 6 additional So. Lgers. (representing the Texas Lge.) were is- sued with Old Mill backs. Then all 48 So. Lgers. were printed with Piedmont 350 backs. TED Z

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02-23-2008, 11:33 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisA long time, great friend of mine who reads the Net54 threads called me and has convinced me that these two Matty cards were drawn by 2 different artists. My friend is a professional artist; therefore, I have been convinced. So to some of you who have posted and said the same, I will now defer to your opinions. I do still wonder, however, why American Lithographic used the printing plate of the older series Matty for the T3 picture in 1911, instead of the newly drawn plate ? 150/350 Series (1909)............................................ .........350/460 Series (1910) <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abmattyt206.jpg"> Turkey Red (1911) <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/amattyt3.jpg"> TED Z

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02-23-2008, 11:42 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIt seems likely that the American Lithograph Company employed dozens of artists. It is quite possible that several other renditions of Matty pitching were drawn but were rejected, and the two best ones made it into the set. Of the 15 examples Ted cites, several such as Kleinow, G. Brown, Lundgren, and Smith among others were done by the same artist and the pictures were just recropped. In the case of Chance, Matty, and others, it is likely different artists drew the poses but used the same photograph as a model.

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02-24-2008, 01:56 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe Six Super-Prints and M. Brown are Subjects in the 350/460 series (1910); and, these cards were produced approx. 1 year apart from their original 150 series (1909) counterparts. Perhaps, given this time interval....a different artist (for each) did redraw, or modify their lithographs. The other 8 "twins" (G. Browne, Dahlen, Demmitt, Elberfeld, Kleinow, Lundgren, O'Hara, and F.Smith) are identical pictures with only changes in team markings and their captions. I think we can all agree on this fact. TED Z