PDA

View Full Version : We See Opportunities Where Others Don't


Archive
02-22-2008, 06:58 AM
Posted By: <b>bruce dorskind</b><p><br /><br />In her brilliant new book about today's masters of the universe,<br />Hedge Hunters,author Katherine Burton describes the ultimate investor as one<br />who sees opportunities where others do not.<br /><br />Whilst much has been written about the largest baseball card collections,<br />and the rarest and most valuable cards, we do not recall a discussion with<br />regard to the most savvy collector- investors.<br /><br />Those collectors with the vision to spot trends ahead of the market...willing<br />to take risks that others avoided. Fierce negotiators who loved the thrill of<br />the chase (and the kill).<br /><br />Certainly Bill Mastro and Rob Lifson were such colletors long before they<br />achieved legendary status as uber-dealers.<br /><br />We wonder who you would select as the ultimate collector- investor<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

Archive
02-22-2008, 07:13 AM
Posted By: <b>Andy</b><p>you Bruce.

Archive
02-22-2008, 07:30 AM
Posted By: <b>Bryan Long</b><p>I very rarely poke my head out from behind the curtain to defend someone that I do not know, but I am curious as to why Bruce and his people (whoever they might be) are picked on so much. I understand that the writing style is strange and his references are different, but does it really require such bashing every time he posts? Maybe Bruce deserves what he gets by his actions elsewhere - and if so then nevermind, but it seems that everyone consistently picks on Bruce. I am surprised that he continues to post as he knows that no matter what he says he will probably get slammed for it - or at least made fun of. Maybe I am just having a bad morning.<br /><br />To answer your question, my vote is for someone you have already mentioned. Bill Mastro, by far. Even though I can't buy much from him - the auctions are fun to watch.<br><br>.

Archive
02-22-2008, 07:48 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>"I am surprised that he continues to post as he knows that no matter what he says he will probably get slammed for it - or at least made fun of."<br /><br />Actually it's not "no matter what Bruce says" it's the way he says it. He was much different at dinner and I never heard a "whilst" or "we". We believe they do it for attention. They receive it too.....Otherwise, many of the thoughts and threads are very good and thought provoking. It's a shame they are articulated in a way that blurs the original premise.<br />best regards

Archive
02-22-2008, 07:49 AM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>if you take your meds regularly. This is a collectors forum not an investment forum. I think I speak for many here who are tired of your ad nauseum focus on money and expense. Take the market talk elsewhere. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Archive
02-22-2008, 08:01 AM
Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>we like applesauce

Archive
02-22-2008, 08:04 AM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Bryan wrote:<br />..."I understand that the writing style is strange and his references are different, but does it really require such bashing every time he posts?..."<br /><br />Yes, Bryan. Yes, it really does.<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I suspect the responses to Bruce's posts are made in good fun, rather than maliciously, ...perhaps much the same as his writing style. As Leon states, he's different in person. One would think he would have to come across as fairly normal and of a singular personality, if he were to run a successful business.<br /><br />To answer Bruce's question, I suspect it is someone under the public radar whom I have never met.

Archive
02-22-2008, 08:18 AM
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Absolutely agree with Leon. His posts are the best on Net 54.

Archive
02-22-2008, 08:33 AM
Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p>Dear Boxing Man<br /><br />Clearly your experience in the ring has left you<br />punch drunk. We are afraid that it is you, not we,<br />who need the medicines.<br /><br />We would be happy to match our collecting knowledge,<br />with anyone in the world. Our collection of correspondence<br />with infamous (many now deceased) collectors) far<br />exceeds that of any other collector in the hobby.<br /><br />We are quite proud of the collectionthat we have built.<br />and the collectors and dealers with whom we have<br />worked over the past 30 years.<br /><br />It is, as we recall, a free country and we will speak<br />in whatever person we select.<br /><br />To a paraphrase a famous politician, when it comes<br />to certain Board Comments<br /><br />'Frankly we don't give a dam.<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />Dorskind Group<br />Minds That Matter

Archive
02-22-2008, 08:51 AM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>There are all sorts of reasons for participating in this hobby. Some people do it because they love the cards, some people do it because they love the investment angle, some people collect shiny stuff, some people collect 19th century stuff. Whatever. It's a big hobby.<br /><br />I do know that we all think it's fun to find a card at a price significantly lower than its true "value," and that most of us love when a set we're working on catches fire (as long as we're done collecting it) and prices go through the roof.<br /><br />Personally, I don't really collect out of speculation. I collect stuff I like. I buy it, and hang onto it until I don't want it anymore. Then I sell it, give it away, or trade it. I don't want to deal with the pressures that go with investing - this is a hobby for me, and I choose to do it for relaxation.<br /><br />For me, it's the history of the game and the people I've met that make the hobby fun. But yes, there are people who have made a great living in this hobby by being able to spot trends and stay ahead of them, and if that's what they enjoy, awesome.<br /><br />In any aspect of life, however, people tend to get irritated by boasting or by consistent references to money. We all know that this hobby costs money, and that rarities cost more than common items. Personally, I'm more interested in reading about someone's excitement about the hobby. <br /><br />The gentleman who collects T-cards with one particular personalized stamp (I'm so sorry I can't recall your name) has, in my opinion, one of the most interesting angles to this hobby I've ever heard of, and I'll never get sick of seeing examples of that stamp. Yet the investor would look at that stamp as something that reduces the value of the card. At the same time, Jim (for example) collects only cards in PSA 8, and is just as enthusiastic about his approach to the hobby as anyone else on this board. In my opinion, that's what makes this hobby so great - it attracts everyone for different reasons, and yet as different as all of our approaches might be, we can all come together and share knowledge and experience in a forum like this one.<br /><br />To me, the ultimate collector-investor is the person who buys up shiny modern cards, finds the important rookie cards and special inserts, and flips them for a quick profit, while building the "base" sets for their own collection in the process. It takes an insane amount of knowledge - both of the hobby, the investment angle, and the game itself - to be successful at that. It's a piece of the hobby that I'll never understand, and yet it's as legitimate a part of the hobby as any other. The people who have done well at this have done VERY well, and it's a lot more difficult to do than to seek out a scarce 19th century card that's virtually guaranteed to increase in value if you hold it long enough.<br /><br />-Al

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:04 AM
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>"We would be happy to match our collecting knowledge,<br />with anyone in the world. Our collection of correspondence<br />with infamous (many now deceased) collectors) far<br />exceeds that of any other collector in the hobby."<br /><br /><br />Bruce-<br />Why do you have to "match" your collecting knowledge with anyone like its a competition? It would be nice if you'd use your "knowledge" in a more helpful way like posting in some of the threads that you may have some background on. The reason you get the answers you do from people is because you come across rude and arrogant. Frankly, I could care less how great your collection is. I don't care that you've hobnobbed with "infamous" collectors in the past. The fact that you don't care to share any of this information basically makes it useless to anyone here. I would think if you'd be a little less pompass and a little more "friendly" on the board you would get you alot futher. This isn't a competition on having the best collection (or most expensive) to anyone but you. <br /><br /><br />Dave<br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:05 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I do agree Bruce's posts are thought provoking and his knowledge of the hobby goes back thirty years. But I also understand why his writing style ruffles a few feathers. I've often asked him to tone it down a notch, but he writes the way he chooses and not much is likely to change.

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:13 AM
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>"infamous"?.....<br /><br />Is there a sub-culture of evil card collectors out there?

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:13 AM
Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>I have been on this forum for about 2 years, and cannot recall ever seeing any scans of Bruce's collection. If you are so proud of your cards, Bruce, why not show 'em off? Back it up, Brother!

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:16 AM
Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Bruce -<br /><br />If I recall correctly, and that's a big "IF" for me, did you help produce or distribute the Spalding Guide reprints that came out several years ago? It seems like I spoke to you many years ago and you helped me get several of the guides.<br /><br />Rob M.

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:22 AM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Howard, yes, there is in fact a nefariously evil subculture of rogue memorabilia collectors. They wear capes and communciate only via text messaging while sipping from Gatorade juice boxes.<br /><br />great point made above about Bruce's unwillingness to share more of his knowledge base. But given the tone and thrust of his previous posts, I would suspect that he doesn't share because he would be giving away what he perceives to be his "competitive advantage"...fair enough.<br /><br />Personally, I wish you would share more, Bruce, but I can respect your personal decision on this, ...and since I don't know you, I'm willing to just go by what Leon and Barry have said in your "defense"....<br /><br />But Bruce, I would like to ask you one question: Putting aside the investment aspects if you can, having so many years of experience in handling cards, what is your favorite card or issue?<br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:26 AM
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>When I see his, err their posts, the word "pompous" always comes to mind.<br />How can someone be this way on virtually every post?<br /><br /><br />pom·pous (pŏm'pəs) Pronunciation Key <br />adj. <br />Characterized by excessive self-esteem or exaggerated dignity; pretentious.

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:26 AM
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>let one be the person they are. We do not have right to judge anyones charachter.This is what makes all unique.

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:36 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know you are in trouble when the original topic gets derailed immediately and the thread turns into an agenda regarding the poster. It's just too much of a distraction for the board.

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:42 AM
Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />In responses to Jason's question<br /><br />The favorite card in our collection is the uncut sheet of 1912 Boston Garters<br />which is actually four cards.<br /><br />Our favorite series is Four Base Hits. We have seen 10 examples<br />and own only one---Van Haltren. <br /><br />In fact, at Leon's request we have posted said example.<br /><br />We also enjoy Kalamazoo Bat Team Cabinets (five known) we own only one.<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List<br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:45 AM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Boy, I'd love to see an uncut sheet of Boston Garters. Would you be able to share a scan, or is it too big?<br /><br />-Al

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:46 AM
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Bruce- can we see the uncut Garters?

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:49 AM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>do you guys have a website or anyhting that shows off the collection? I would love to see it!

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:49 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Bruce has sent me scans of several of his cards, including the Four Base Hits, and I have posted them on the board previously. I am at work (whatever I do here?)so don't have the scans to be able to show again....regards

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:57 AM
Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />The sheet is far too large to scan<br /><br />It, like a cadre of other items from<br />our collection, has been featured<br />in well distributed books.<br /><br />The book is Baseball Archaeology -Artifacts<br />from the Great American Pastime<br /><br />Photography by Bret Wills<br />Publisher; Chronicle Books San Francisco<br /><br />See page 47 -beautiful photo of the Boston Garter sheet<br /><br />Interesting Note<br /><br />The sheet was discovered in a find by Mr. Mint. He did not<br />know what it was He sold it to Bill Mastro who sold to Rob Lifson<br />We purchased it as part of a major deal from Rob in 1989<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List<br /><br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:00 AM
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>bruce - instead of sending us out to buy a book to see it, perhaps you could scan in the picture from the book, since the sheet is too big...<br />if the book is too big, perhaps you have a photo of it...<br />if not, perhaps you could take a photo of it...

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:14 AM
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I dislike the tone of some of Bruce's posts, but he generally asks some thought provoking questions. Further, in this post, Bruce was asked to share some info about his collection and he willingly did so - don't then jump down his throat because he doesnt have a scan of a card or, perhaps, doesn't desire to share a scan.

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:16 AM
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Josh - if he doesn't desire to share it, he can just say so.

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:22 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Let me add that several years ago Bruce asked me to help him catalog his collection, and I spent two days at his apartment with spreadsheets getting it all down. It was actually fun. He really does have some extraordinary items, and while he has sold some of them over the years, he kept his very best ones.

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:24 AM
Posted By: <b>Bryan Long</b><p>I apologize.<br />Can we go back to talking about taco bell and applesauce?<br><br>.

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:42 AM
Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Please refer your questions to taco bell and applesauce to my book titled "The best book in the history of books about taco bell and applesause"

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:42 AM
Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />Matt<br /><br />You don't have to spend your valuable time shopping at a bookstore<br />You cann order the book from Amazon<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Archaeology-Bret-Wills/dp/0811803651/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203611461&sr=1-4" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Archaeology-Bret-Wills/dp/0811803651/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203611461&sr=1-4</a><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:48 AM
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>wow...you can get a copy for $.34...less than a postage stamp!

Archive
02-22-2008, 12:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob C.</b><p>If one wants a sage thought provoking read about opportunistic risk taking, one can get the book. I don't see the correlation to our hobby Bruce. Are you saying we should approach the hobby/industry/whatever in this same fashion? A large casino table? To quote: "You've got a better chance surviving as a crack dealer in Chicago than lasting four years in the hedge fund business."<br />Sorry, I don't view collecting that way. If I want to gamble I will hop on a plane to Vegas. Or call my broker. Not accumulate high grade pre war baseball cards then giddily broadcast pecuniary wizardry to the world. My two cents.<br /><br />REPORT<br />"Hedge Hunters," by Katherine Burton<br />Reviewed by Chris Nicholson Published: December 21, 2007<br /><br />"Hedge Fund Masters on the Rewards, the Risk, and the Reckoning By Katherine Burton 206 pages. Bloomberg Press. <br /><br />Maybe God doesn't play dice with the universe, but hedge fund managers do. They view the world as a casino table: a place of shifting probability and potential wins.<br /><br />Now, as financial markets tremble and groan under the strains of subprime debt, as all eyes turn toward the complex wagers that led up to this moment, it is time to look at who has made it in hedge funds, what path they took, and how they are weathering this storm.<br /><br />Eighteen of the secretive industry's top performers, incisively profiled over as many chapters, fill this topical, instructive book by Katherine Burton, a reporter at Bloomberg News since 1993. Instructive, because it offers insight into how the managers invest, as well as a look at the human soul. For money is an amplifier: If you have ideas, principles or taste, money writes it large; the same thing goes if you don't.<br /><br />Take Craig Effron, hedge guru in blue jeans. In the early 1990s, he was one of the people who figured out that Russians, recently issued 10,000-ruble vouchers for stock in state-owned companies, wouldn't want to wait to cash them in or didn't understand the notion of holding shares. So he sent someone to buy the paper at less than a third its face value, and made a killing. "That was a good gig," Burton quotes him as saying.<br /><br />Some of these men (and yes, they are all men) earned their money in quite respectable ways; others in more doubtful ones. But if Burton draws a line between the two, it is blurred by her forgiving regard for the profession as a whole. To write a book like this, one must have a certain admiration for money, regardless of its origins; to be included in such a book, one must have an overwhelming desire to make it, to the exclusion of other ambitions.<br /><br />Today in Your Money<br /><br />How a portfolio might look in 20 years <br /><br />'All the money in the world' by Peter W. Bernstein and Annalyn Swan <br /><br />Investing in Russia: The case grows stronger<br /><br />Listen to Julian Robertson, founder of Tiger Management and mentor to a generation of now-middle-aged managers known as the Tiger Cubs: "When you manage money, it takes over your whole life. It's a 24-hour-a-day thing." Only later does philanthropy kick in, like a cleanup crew after a parade.<br /><br />Perhaps Burton's gray zone is wide because in circles where getting rich is the chief aim of a life, one's capacity to risk money, as hedge fund managers do, is known as courage. But this slinging about of fine qualities makes the greatest gamblers look like the greatest men, and makes their behavior, driven by an adventuresome avarice, seem worthy of imitation. Nothing against making money, but to ennoble it as Burton does is to lend money the last thing it lacks.<br /><br />Still, the hedge fund managers she writes about are rich, powerful, the Gatsbys of our age - and for those reasons if no others, they deserve study.<br /><br />Can Burton help us in that? Yes. Her lengthy interviews with these managers are a window onto how wealth operates. They convey the variety of characters that succeed in hedge funds, and the conversations recorded in this book are strewn with gems.<br /><br />Burton's book surprises with its comedy and color. "We believe the efficient market hypothesis is a bunch of crap," says Bernay Box, who founded and runs Bonanza Capital, which invests in small-capitalization companies. Michael Steinhardt, a trailblazer in hedge funds, admits that he prematurely exited most of the winning bets he ever made - not for fear of losing but because they no longer posed an intellectual challenge.<br /><br />There is even mentorship here, as Burton asks her hedge hunters what it takes to get into the business. The criteria are many, and they depend on whom you ask: confidence and humility, analysis and intuition, conviction and openness to persuasion. Only three traits win universal agreement - hard work, a keen mind and consistent profit - but if you don't have the profit, the other two don't matter.<br /><br />Aspiring hedge fund managers will experience, in studying these interviews, moments of epiphany. One will be about how fleeting a fund is. Some of the industry's biggest names - Robertson, for example, or T. Boone Pickens, who now heads BP Capital - ran into trouble and had to shut down or regroup. To quote Roberto Mignone, head of Bridger Management: "You've got a better chance surviving as a crack dealer in Chicago than lasting four years in the hedge fund business."<br /><br />In other words, an exciting game, but an easy one to lose."<br />Chris Nicholson is an editor at the International Herald Tribune.<br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 12:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob C.</b><p>If one wants a sage thought provoking read about opportunistic risk taking, one can get the book. I don't see the correlation to our hobby Bruce. Are you saying we should approach the hobby/industry/whatever in this same fashion? A large casino table? To quote: "You've got a better chance surviving as a crack dealer in Chicago than lasting four years in the hedge fund business."<br />Sorry, I don't view collecting that way. If I want to gamble I will hop on a plane to Vegas. Or call my broker. Not accumulate high grade pre war baseball cards then giddily broadcast pecuniary wizardry to the world. My two cents.<br /><br />REPORT<br />"Hedge Hunters," by Katherine Burton<br />Reviewed by Chris Nicholson Published: December 21, 2007<br /><br />"Hedge Fund Masters on the Rewards, the Risk, and the Reckoning By Katherine Burton 206 pages. Bloomberg Press. <br /><br />Maybe God doesn't play dice with the universe, but hedge fund managers do. They view the world as a casino table: a place of shifting probability and potential wins.<br /><br />Now, as financial markets tremble and groan under the strains of subprime debt, as all eyes turn toward the complex wagers that led up to this moment, it is time to look at who has made it in hedge funds, what path they took, and how they are weathering this storm.<br /><br />Eighteen of the secretive industry's top performers, incisively profiled over as many chapters, fill this topical, instructive book by Katherine Burton, a reporter at Bloomberg News since 1993. Instructive, because it offers insight into how the managers invest, as well as a look at the human soul. For money is an amplifier: If you have ideas, principles or taste, money writes it large; the same thing goes if you don't.<br /><br />Take Craig Effron, hedge guru in blue jeans. In the early 1990s, he was one of the people who figured out that Russians, recently issued 10,000-ruble vouchers for stock in state-owned companies, wouldn't want to wait to cash them in or didn't understand the notion of holding shares. So he sent someone to buy the paper at less than a third its face value, and made a killing. "That was a good gig," Burton quotes him as saying.<br /><br />Some of these men (and yes, they are all men) earned their money in quite respectable ways; others in more doubtful ones. But if Burton draws a line between the two, it is blurred by her forgiving regard for the profession as a whole. To write a book like this, one must have a certain admiration for money, regardless of its origins; to be included in such a book, one must have an overwhelming desire to make it, to the exclusion of other ambitions.<br /><br />Today in Your Money<br /><br />How a portfolio might look in 20 years <br /><br />'All the money in the world' by Peter W. Bernstein and Annalyn Swan <br /><br />Investing in Russia: The case grows stronger<br /><br />Listen to Julian Robertson, founder of Tiger Management and mentor to a generation of now-middle-aged managers known as the Tiger Cubs: "When you manage money, it takes over your whole life. It's a 24-hour-a-day thing." Only later does philanthropy kick in, like a cleanup crew after a parade.<br /><br />Perhaps Burton's gray zone is wide because in circles where getting rich is the chief aim of a life, one's capacity to risk money, as hedge fund managers do, is known as courage. But this slinging about of fine qualities makes the greatest gamblers look like the greatest men, and makes their behavior, driven by an adventuresome avarice, seem worthy of imitation. Nothing against making money, but to ennoble it as Burton does is to lend money the last thing it lacks.<br /><br />Still, the hedge fund managers she writes about are rich, powerful, the Gatsbys of our age - and for those reasons if no others, they deserve study.<br /><br />Can Burton help us in that? Yes. Her lengthy interviews with these managers are a window onto how wealth operates. They convey the variety of characters that succeed in hedge funds, and the conversations recorded in this book are strewn with gems.<br /><br />Burton's book surprises with its comedy and color. "We believe the efficient market hypothesis is a bunch of crap," says Bernay Box, who founded and runs Bonanza Capital, which invests in small-capitalization companies. Michael Steinhardt, a trailblazer in hedge funds, admits that he prematurely exited most of the winning bets he ever made - not for fear of losing but because they no longer posed an intellectual challenge.<br /><br />There is even mentorship here, as Burton asks her hedge hunters what it takes to get into the business. The criteria are many, and they depend on whom you ask: confidence and humility, analysis and intuition, conviction and openness to persuasion. Only three traits win universal agreement - hard work, a keen mind and consistent profit - but if you don't have the profit, the other two don't matter.<br /><br />Aspiring hedge fund managers will experience, in studying these interviews, moments of epiphany. One will be about how fleeting a fund is. Some of the industry's biggest names - Robertson, for example, or T. Boone Pickens, who now heads BP Capital - ran into trouble and had to shut down or regroup. To quote Roberto Mignone, head of Bridger Management: "You've got a better chance surviving as a crack dealer in Chicago than lasting four years in the hedge fund business."<br /><br />In other words, an exciting game, but an easy one to lose."<br />Chris Nicholson is an editor at the International Herald Tribune.<br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 12:34 PM
Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />Life is about competition<br /><br />Whether it is for baseball cards<br />Winning the pennant<br />For political power<br />For Oil <br />And For Water (soon to be a major geopolitical issue)<br />A seat on the train<br />A mate<br />Golf<br />or anything else<br /><br />There are only two outcomes in competition<br />winners and losers<br /><br />If one want to acquire the very best one can afford<br />one must study the market, understand the competition,<br />take risks and be able to act quickly. Take no prisoners.<br /><br />This is a billion dollar business, regardless of whether<br />or not you choose to call it a hobby. The average lot<br />price in Robert Edward Auction or the major Mastro auctions<br />exceeds $5000.<br /><br />One must do anything one can (within the law) to achieve one's<br />goals. We greatly admire the hedge fund mega stars. They have<br />the intelligence, courage and savvy to move ahead...<br /><br />We often wonder why hundreds of people wait in an orderly line<br />for a taxi on a rainy day...when one can walk a block and grab the cab,<br /><br />As a lifelong Yankee fan...we believe, if you don't win the World<br />Series, it is a losing season. True success in this hobby is about winning.<br />And one wins someone else loses<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

Archive
02-22-2008, 12:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>"And one wins someone else loses"<br /><br />I think they mean And WHEN one wins . . .

Archive
02-22-2008, 12:56 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>I have a good time just running in the race <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive
02-22-2008, 12:58 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce- I'm going to have to say it again, you need to step back a little.<br /><br />Not everybody can win a $10K lot in a Mastro auction without competing, but not everyone needs to. It's quite possible to go through life happily without aspiring to be a hedge fund manager. Not sure they are my ideal. And when you look at life as a 24 hour a day competition, it will all likely pass you by.<br /><br />Many collect for fun and relaxation, nothing more. And it works for them.

Archive
02-22-2008, 01:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Bruce, I understand your point, but choose not to look at it that way.<br /><br />They're baseball cards. They were mass-produced. If there's a card I'd like to own, I'll set a price in my mind that I'm willing to pay. If the price eclipses what I'm willing to pay, I'll let it go - there will eventually be another one, or something similar. I suspect you do the same thing, otherwise you'd win every lot you were interested in, regardless of cost.<br /><br />I might feel differently if they were one-of-a-kind items, like paintings or sculptures. But they're not. There are very few baseball cards that are one-of-a-kind, "must own" sort of items. A Boston Garter uncut sheet would certainly be one of them, but a high-grade T206 common is most definitely not.<br /><br />I understand this is a large industry for many, and I'm willing to let that fact govern some of what I'm able to collect. I also prefer cards that are unique in some way and am willing to pay a little more for what I would enjoy owning.<br /><br />However, I am a businessperson in business, and enjoy my leisure activities because they help me relax. I refuse to feel pressure over anything that's not directly related to my business or my personal finances. Since I choose to pay for cards with my discretionary income, I am less concerned with the investment potential, and I do not view the hobby as a competition. Of course there are times it becomes competitive anyway, but I always try to keep it in perspective.<br /><br />I feel no need to run up the street a block to get a cab before the people in line ahead of me. Perhaps I could get the cab more quickly if I did, but then I'd miss out on the opportunity to potentially strike up a conversation with an interesting person who is also waiting for a taxi. I guess I figure that in life we're all going from point A to point B - we could race there in a straight line and feel a sense of accomplishment over reaching the destination, or we could strive to get there in due time and feel a sense of accomplishment over the journey. I'm happy with the latter.<br /><br />-Al

Archive
02-22-2008, 01:06 PM
Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p> I discovered that Eddie Farrell, who had a 1933 Goudey Card attended Columbia University (my alman mater) for some post-grad courses. Since I am a bit of a completist -- I now need that 1933 Goudey card (or some other card of Farrell for my Columbia collection.<br /><br /> But; do I have to get a PSA or BVG 8 or SCD 88 or better card of Farrell to be happy -- NO, not for my collection -- but if I were doing that collection as an investment -- THEN, I would want the highly conditioned professionally graded card. Bruce is right, it's all about choices -- and when I go, no one may care the way I do about that collection -- so let ME enjoy what I want the way I want.<br /><br /> There is nothing wrong with Bruce's efforts -- and there is nothing wrong with collecting for fun (and maybe profit) either. <br /><br /> Regards<br /> Rich

Archive
02-22-2008, 01:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>This (collectibles in general) is one of the few hobbies that money drives it. Other hobbies like gardening, sports, photography, etc,... are more focused on skills & techniques rather than spending money. I'm a really poor slob, but I enjoy this hobby as much as the Mastro's best customers.<br /><br />Alan

Archive
02-22-2008, 01:32 PM
Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>I hear voices where others don't but have not, as of yet, been able to parlay that particular skill into a successful vintage card acquisition paradigm.

Archive
02-22-2008, 01:36 PM
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Lots of different ways to enjoy the hobby. Barry--you can enjoy things your way--but it does not mean that Bruce has to step back. Some of us are more competitive than others and it effects everything we do. There is no question that I would not wait in the cab line--but if Al wants to wait in the cab line and chat with people thats fine too--I just want to get there.<br /><br />There are a limited number of high-end expensive cards in the hobby; there are a limited number of PSA 8 or better 1962 Topps Eddie Witt cards. What do you do if you want them--you hustle and plot and think how can I get it. You ask a seller to stop an ebay auction. You befriend a dealer--you go to work on a collector who has it.<br /><br />Is this for everyone--of course not--but for some high achievers(not including myself) there is no other way--this is how they got ahead in business and this is how they will get ahead in card collecting.<br /><br />Bruce--you need to become more aggressive--there is a certain ceo and his son in Califonia who are throwing tens of millions of dollars in the hobby and they are leaving all of us in the dust.<br /><br />Jim

Archive
02-22-2008, 01:39 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if you won't wait in line for a cab, would you actually cut ahead of the people who were?

Archive
02-22-2008, 01:41 PM
Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>I hear voices where others don't, but have not, as of yet, been able to parlay that particular skill into a successful vintage card acquisition paradigm.

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:01 PM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I might get down in the low post and throw a few elbows when I'm playing pickup basketball, but that does not make me Ron Artest.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:03 PM
Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Bruce's threads usually turn into what this one has become. <br /><br />Thought provoking everyone?

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:03 PM
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>uh oh...the gloves are coming off.

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:06 PM
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />No--I would walk around the block to get one. Do it every day at Penn Station.

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:15 PM
Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>I remember that was never an easy card to find raw either <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Regards<br />Rich

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:26 PM
Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>OK, all sing together now:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyu7nN3kBnw" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyu7nN3kBnw</a>

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>I, Loser!<br /><br />I compete for the bottom of the barrel stuff. I guess if I win the bottom of the barrel stuff that makes me a minimally exceptional winner (or loser, depending on how you view bottom feeders).<br /><br />I figure if you compete at high levels and do things ethically and without screwing thy neighbor then you've done well. When you start screwing people in order to "win" then you really need to start weighing how the victory was achieved.

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:34 PM
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Further to Alan's post, I got past all the songs at the "hard" level in Guitar Hero, Rock of the 80s. I've now moved on to "expert".<br /><br />I'm a winner. Or a loser. But I rock (at least according to my kids).

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:43 PM
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rich,<br /><br />Yes--I paid $7,500 for the Landrum and Witt in 8.<br /><br />Jim

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Heh. I put $7500 down on my CAR. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />-Al

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:49 PM
Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>I may be of limited means (in comparison to others on this board). But I do have an incredible family, a wife that loves me, and two beautiful children. When I die, I'll be happy that my cards and money and everything else will go elsewhere. However, I'll be overjoyed to have an eternity with my loved ones.

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Posted By: <b>Craig W</b><p>I enjoy reading Bruce's posts. They kinda remind me of the Borg Collective in the Star Trek sequels: "We are the Borg. You will be assimmilated. Resistance is futile."<br /><br />Personally, it would be hard for me to say which writing I think is best, Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" or Max Ehrmann's "Desiderata".<br /><br />When it comes right down to it, I suppose the best advice comes from Odes 1.11 "... carpe diem ..." (harvest the day) in whatever manner (within the law and without infringing on others) one sees fit.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p><img src="http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l239/dcc1/bosg.jpg">

Archive
02-22-2008, 03:15 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Prillaman</b><p>I think I missed the cab altogether - I'm still trying to figure out who Eddie Witt is? <br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 03:17 PM
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>He is a cross between George Witt and Eddie Watt

Archive
02-22-2008, 03:23 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That could be a law firm:<br /><br />Witt and Watt

Archive
02-22-2008, 03:24 PM
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Yeah, what James Feagin said...

Archive
02-22-2008, 03:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I guess it all depends on your definition of vintage card collecting. For many of us, we do it because we love the cards, love the history of the game and it is a pleasant diversion which does, truth be told, also make us money as the prices continue to soar. I do think though that life is way too short to be a bloody and competitive battle from day to day. I would rather sit in the stands and watch my grandson play baseball than to score a PSA 7 E94 card (when I can get one in PSA 4 with great eye appeal). The enjoyment and thrills simply do not compare.<br />Bruce, I understand your philosophy and am not criticizing you for it but maybe you need to just stop and smell the roses once in a while. At the nightfall of our lives, all we have left are our memories and our friends and loved ones and those pieces of cardboard just don't seem so important after all. Someone once wrote on this board that all we do is merely rent our card collections, to enjoy during our lifetimes. That is so simple a statement, yet profound...

Archive
02-22-2008, 04:00 PM
Posted By: <b>JOHN</b><p>We read thru this adventure whilst watching some boob tube and must say that we collect our cards solely for fun and enjoyment. We even try to get our children involved a bit.<br /><br />We are also going to make the soon-to-be arriving case of Topps Heritage a family affair. We challenge anyone to have that much family fun. As you know life is all about winning and losing and we consider family fun to be the ultimate victory.<br /><br />We would be happy to match our family fun knowledge with anyone in the world. Our family fun far exceeds that of any other collector in the hobby. We don't believe that money is everything. We have fun.<br /><br />Goose<br />The Geese Gaggle<br />Money don't matter<br /><br /><br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 04:04 PM
Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>If there aren't losers, what's the point?<br /><br />Now go out there, collect some cards and kick some ass!

Archive
02-22-2008, 04:06 PM
Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>"There are only two outcomes in competition<br />winners and losers."<br /><br />And those who can't punctuate. Gee. Should we teach our kids this too? "Hey Johnny- if you don't win this race or baseball game or if your card collection isn't as nice as that rich kid's, you're a LOSER!"

Archive
02-22-2008, 04:08 PM
Posted By: <b>JOHN</b><p>my kid can beat your kid up.

Archive
02-22-2008, 04:08 PM
Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Sticks and stones!

Archive
02-22-2008, 04:11 PM
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>If it is a competition, then the Hall of Fame wins. Nothing will top their collection in sheer volume, uniqueness, and scarcity. You also have Burdick's collection, regardless of what is missing.<br /><br />Then we have Larry Fritsch (rest his soul), who not only had an incredible collection, but the sheer volume of material in his warehouse could keep several auction houses busy for the next decade.<br /><br />Let's not forget Keith O, as well as some of our own members, including Leon (modest as he is, his collection is world class even without the FBH Kelly), Jim Clarke, Preece, Corey, and others.<br /><br />I promised myself I wouldn't chime in here, but could not help it.<br /><br />Enjoy life Bruce, and everything it has to offer. You seem to be intelligent, and a very busy man. Whoever has the most toys doesn't win. And if it does mean that, then you have already lost. May as well sell everything right now.<br /><br />BTW, you keep misusing the word cadre. Look it up. Plethora, assortment, potpourri, gaggle, collection, accumulation, hoard, random pile, stack, abundance, and well you get the idea.

Archive
02-22-2008, 04:53 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That's correct. "Cadre" refers to a group of people, not a group of things.

Archive
02-22-2008, 05:57 PM
Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p>A wise man once told me; "The one who dies with the most toys is still dead!"

Archive
02-22-2008, 05:58 PM
Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>It is, as we recall, a free country and we will call a cadre whatever we wish.

Archive
02-22-2008, 05:59 PM
Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>(A wise man once told me; "The one who dies with the most toys is still dead!")<br /><br /><br /><br />That's what the losers tell other losers to make them feel better about losing. Now go out there and win!

Archive
02-22-2008, 06:08 PM
Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><P>Brian,</P><P>I left out 'POOR OLD' wise man... </P>

Archive
02-22-2008, 06:27 PM
Posted By: <b>T.Ferg</b><p>"If there aren't losers, what's the point?<br /><br />Now go out there, collect some cards and kick some ass!"<br /><br />Classic stuff, I'll be laughing for awhile.

Archive
02-22-2008, 06:35 PM
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>"Think big, think positive. Never show any sign of weakness. Always go for the throat. Buy low, sell high. Fear . . . that's the other guy's problem." - Louis Winthorpe <br /><br />“The tendency of aggression is an innate, independent, instinctual disposition in man ... it constitutes the most powerful obstacle to culture.” - Sigmund Freud

Archive
02-22-2008, 06:40 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ok, that Boston Garter sheet is just about the coolest thing in our hobby that I have ever seen. And I can't help but notice that the bottom panel is Hal Chase....

Archive
02-22-2008, 06:49 PM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>"Life is about competition<br /><br />Whether it is for baseball cards<br />Winning the pennant<br />For political power<br />For Oil<br />And For Water (soon to be a major geopolitical issue)<br />A seat on the train<br />A mate<br />Golf<br />or anything else<br /><br />There are only two outcomes in competition<br />winners and losers<br /><br />If one want to acquire the very best one can afford<br />one must study the market, understand the competition,<br />take risks and be able to act quickly. Take no prisoners.<br /><br />This is a billion dollar business, regardless of whether<br />or not you choose to call it a hobby. The average lot<br />price in Robert Edward Auction or the major Mastro auctions<br />exceeds $5000.<br /><br />One must do anything one can (within the law) to achieve one's<br />goals. We greatly admire the hedge fund mega stars. They have<br />the intelligence, courage and savvy to move ahead...<br /><br />We often wonder why hundreds of people wait in an orderly line<br />for a taxi on a rainy day...when one can walk a block and grab the cab,<br /><br />As a lifelong Yankee fan...we believe, if you don't win the World<br />Series, it is a losing season. True success in this hobby is about winning.<br />And one wins someone else loses"<br /><br />You are a scary dude, Bruce:<br /><br />It's not a billion dollar business; it's a freakin' pastime. <br /><br />It isn't a competition; it is a hobby where most of the participants come to spend some weight-lightening time with friends in the pursuit of enjoyment and nostalgia. <br /><br />It's not a single set of goals; there are as many goals as there are collectors.<br /><br />True success isn't about winning; it is about being satisfied with what you have and how you got there. <br /><br />If you can't see that, you are never going to be satisfied no matter how big a mound of slabs you hoard under your bed. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Archive
02-22-2008, 07:12 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I often wonder if Bruce is really trying to get conversation going or if he's starved for attention.

Archive
02-22-2008, 07:24 PM
Posted By: <b>T.Ferg</b><p>I've only been reading this forum for a month, so I don't know his story. I see nothing wrong with his posts, he is giving his take on the hobby/business and life as he goes through it. I'm sure he knows what kind of responses he(they) will get, I find it entertaining and funny.

Archive
02-22-2008, 07:31 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce's posts elicit different responses from various members, and they run the gamut.

Archive
02-22-2008, 08:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Craig W</b><p>... for posting the Boston Garter image. That is just uber kewl! My congrats to Bruce if this is what he has (oops, they have)!<br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 08:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob C</b><p>Jeff I could be wrong but I think that particular scan of the Boston Garter Panel is a reprint. I can, of course, be convinced otherwise...

Archive
02-22-2008, 09:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Andy</b><p>Regardless of how much money Mr. Dorkind has (or his "group"), he is without question one of the most emotionally and socially ignorant human beings I have ever come across. Downright hilarious though, I laugh out loud on virtually every one of his posts. Thanks Bruce, keep em coming - you're the best!

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Bruce - those Garters are off the effin card chain !That is nasty rare and unfathomable.<br /><br />Edited to also say that the 4 together like that the 400k mark would be close.

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:34 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>In the world of the real "winners" (Bruce's definition) competition for collectibles as status indicators, for things like art, sculptures, ancient coins, islands, private jets and estate mansions, baseball cards don't even hit the radar. For the price of a Renior or two, someone could have purchased every baseball card ever put up to auction. We are mere guppies in a sea filled with whales. <br /><br />Fortunately for us, whales don't like baseball cards. Some guppies might be bigger than others, but we are all still just guppies, even Bruce.<br /><br />

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:37 PM
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Thanks for putting that into perspective!

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>Dan: $400,000? Boy am I out of touch for the hobby. There have been some great sheets in the hobby. Have any of them every broken $100,000?<br /><br />Richard: Very well said. I think that some single Sotheby's or Christies art auctions do more in sales than the combined yearly total of every auction house in our hobby.

Archive
02-22-2008, 10:55 PM
Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>The T206 Honus Wagner card certainly holds a special place in the hobby as a desired artifact that is like no other. When I tell people I collect baseball cards, they always ask about the Wagner. It is the only card they have heard of. Nope, don't have one of those, I say. Personally, I have no interest in "The Card" (i.e. the McNall/Gretzky one) but the next time an authentic beater example comes up, you never know...

Archive
02-22-2008, 11:22 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>the last Bescher and Chance sold privately or in auction combined<br />for 75k+, wit hthe recent hi monies for the color 14's will add more , then the fact that CHase and Clarke woould most likely fetch 125k easily wit ha suitcase included ,I believ maybe the only attached remaining pieces would hold a much greater value.

Archive
02-22-2008, 11:36 PM
Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>I own most of the property in the town I live in. If I sell just one large building, the proceeds could buy Dorskind's entire collection. One house buys the uncut Boston Garter strip. Cards are fun to collect and invest in, but they need to be kept in perspective. Hedge funds are collapsing even as we speak and a few of the managers have committed suicide since the market started collapsing a few months ago.

Archive
02-23-2008, 12:27 AM
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>and Jim told Bruce to compete with Chad!<br />Pleeeeeeeeeese Jim!<br />Who would you rather be stuck on a desert island with!<br />There is no competition as Chad has class and manners as well as humility.<br />I would think you would respect those qualities.<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive
02-23-2008, 06:46 AM
Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>"We are Chevy Chase" and you're not.

Archive
02-23-2008, 07:34 AM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Bruce has got to be grinning from ear to ear. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203687227.JPG">

Archive
02-23-2008, 08:25 AM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>George D, <br />easy come, easy go, huh?<br />arrogance often disables the hedge fund managers' ability to see the game they are actually playing.<br /><br />Richard M, <br />Well said.<br />I continue to hope that the aforementioned whales never develop a taste (or subsequent hunger) for my hobby. At least, not until I have accummulated far more! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Of course, your point also drives home the fact that if you and Bruce are guppies, well....then I can't be more than a humble single-celled amoeba. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>