Robert Edward Auctions Will Sell Beckett's T206 Wagner

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy</b><p>We all know that Beckett has been actively in the vintage hobby news which has not been the case in past years. I think this was a great move to have REA take over such a large collection. The 550 T206 collection, will be sold off in the first week in May<br /><br />What does everyone think about Beckett gaining more interest with vintage collectors from this collection? I feel in the coming years Beckett may get more comfortable about grading prewar vintage cards and have a strong collector base. They may have some problems with grading vintage, but that can be improved, their prices are fair and customer service is not bad either. I do not think they will ever compete with PSA and SGC, but they already have a good hold on modern cards, it will not hurt them to improve on the vintage side which would give them good balance in the hobby.<br /><br />Jimmy<br />

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Whoever the consignor is, he's probably leaving some money on the table in auctioning it off in the Beckett holder. As a guy that may actually think about seriously bidding on a low-end Wagner in the next few years (I'm not there yet), I would bid significantly lower on a Beckett Wagner than a SGC Wagner in the same grade - unless I got a guarantee on crossover from the seller.<br /><br />In other words, having the card in the Beckett holder is good for Beckett - and it may really improve their standing in the vintage market. But the reward is all Beckett's. The risk is the consignors. I prefer reward over risk.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>It's probably that REA will give their own detailed description of the card, including its condition, so I don't think the Beckett holder will be an issue. Even if a Pre-War collector isn't fond of Beckett, Rob's opinion will hold weight.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>if ur seriously thinking about buying the wagner card, i don't think the holder matters. no one should be dropping ~150k w/o doing the necessary research and homework. it will do fine in the beckett holder, imo.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I agree with Quan. The bidders should spend most of their attention on the card. $150 thousand is a lot to spend on a label, Beckett, PSA or SGC. I hope the buyer is spending the money on the card.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>King- regardless what you think of the card in a Beckett holder, it was from an original find so how could it not cross over to an SGC 10, or a PSA 1?

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I agree that the holder is not a real issue here. If it were me, I would prefer another holder, but I would not be worried that it would not cross. And that is a very nice looking Wagner - very good eye-appeal.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>If I had a few extra hundred g's lying around...I'd buy it...it is a nice one!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/ullmandds/T206Wagnerbeckettsmall.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"King- regardless what you think of the card in a Beckett holder, it was from an original find so how could it not cross over to an SGC 10, or a PSA 1?"<br /><br />What's worse than a SGC 10 or PSA 1? There is something worse than a 1.<br /><br />What if Rob doesn't see something but SGC or PSA sees something upon trying to cross it over?<br /><br />I agree the probability of it crossing is high. But there is still a chance it doesn't. The chance of the Patriots only scoring 14 points in the Super Bowl was incredibly low, probably less than 5%. It happened.<br /><br />If I was willing to pay $150,000 for a SGC 10 card, I'd shave $15,000 to $30,000 off that number for a Beckett 1 with the small chance it doesn't cross. That would be enough of a difference to compensate for the potential aggravation if it doesn't cross. <br /><br />But if I was really in the market for one and was interested in this particular card, I'd go out of my way to make sure it would cross before hand, thus eliminating the risk. But if I didn't take those steps, I would shave 15K to 30K off of my real bid. That's just me, it sounds like few agree though, so maybe there is no negative impact if no one else has the same worries (albeit small worries) that I'd have if I was interested in the card.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi King,<br /> I understand your concerns, but I believe Rob has handled more Wagners than anyone alive, so I wouldn't be too worried. <br /> Be well Brian<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />PS If the entire find wasn't already graded by Beckett, than I bet the Wagner would have been crossed before the auction.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Remember that Pre-War collectors used to complain that Beckett Vintage graded too hard. At that time at least, these collectors (many seasoned collectors on this board) would have said Beckett had a predilection to undergrading Pre War cards, not overgrading. These collectors said they chose PSA and SGC, because they weren't as harsh in their grades.<br /><br />I don't know how things have changed with Beckett's grading since then, but I thought this was an interesting historical nugget, in particular with the claims that Beckett might overgrade a T206.

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>If I were thinking of dropping in the neighborhood of $150k on a card, I would hope that:<br /><br />1. I'd know enough about the issue that I could draw a conclusion about its authenticity/grade on my own.<br /><br />2. If the holder had the potential of impacting my bid by $15,000-$30,000, thereby possibly causing me to lose out on the card, I'd pony up $500 or so and fly to see the card before the auction. Seems like the cost of a plane ticket, which would allow me to draw my own conclusion, is a small price to pay.<br /><br />I'd be willing to say that in the case of a T206 Wagner, the brand of plastic has less importance than it does on most other, less-expensive issues.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"I understand your concerns, but I believe Rob has handled more Wagners than anyone alive, so I wouldn't be too worried. "<br /><br />Brian, I wouldn't be too worried either. That's why I'd only bid 10%-20% lower for the Beckett 1 rather than a SGC 10. To me, 10%-20% is "not too worried". If I was really worried, I wouldn't bid at all (if I was interested in the card)...if I was really worried a lot, I wouldn't be willing to shell out $120K on a baseball card. For the way I think, its simply a matter of probability and percentages, that's all.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"Remember that Pre-War collectors used to complain that Beckett Vintage graded too hard. So there is no history or past evidence of Beckett having a predilection to overgrading Pre-War cards. In fact, it is quite the opposite."<br /><br />My personal experience is that they've graded cards that both SGC/PSA have deemed as trimmed. Of course that doesn't mean this Wagner is, I'm not implying that. Just saying there is history and past evidence of Beckett having a predilection to grading trimmed Pre-War cards, at least per SGC's and PSA's opinion. Again, I agree its a small chance that something is wrong. But there is also a small chance that I might have an accident and die tomorrow, yet I still have life insurance for my family.<br /><br />Another question:<br />How much would it take to cross the card to SGC or PSA? Are you guys saying that the cost of crossing it before auctioning it isn't worth it? If that's the case, was it worth the price of grading it with Beckett to begin with? Why not just sell it raw? So the grading fees charged by Beckett was a waste of money?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Considering PSA and SGC often change the grade upon resubmission (some people have made a cottage industry of resubmitting PSA cards for fun and profit), the point is, as the point was, to buy the card not the label. If one can't make his own good determination about the condition and authenticity of a small piece of cardboard, perhaps he shouldn't be spending $150,000 on a it. I admittedly know very little about $50,000 Ming Dynasty vases, but it doesn't matter as I've never bought one nor plan on buying one-- even if one appears in the next REA auction. If I was putting down $50,000 on a vase advertised as being from the Ming Dynasty, then my ignorance would matter quite a bit.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"Another question:<br />How much would it take to cross the card to SGC or PSA? Are you guys saying that the cost of crossing it before auctioning it isn't worth it? If that's the case, was it worth the price of grading it with Beckett to begin with? Why not just sell it raw? So the grading fees charged by Beckett was a waste of money?"<br /><br /><br />I can only guess that the consignor has a loyalty to Beckett. The consignor, did of course, choose Beckett for his 'find' - and I am guessing Beckett expressed great pride in grading the Wagner. So a non-cross could very well have been the consignor's decision - - and a very understandable one at that.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy</b><p>I just feel that it was a great move by REA to include the T206 cards in the spring auction which will help them compete with Mastro’s when they sell the rest of the skydash collection. Selling the cards will create exposure for both REA and Beckett, as this will be the largest collection of cards from the T206 set that have been graded by BVG. I understand that maybe placing the card in a PSA holder or SGC holder may be best, but your buying the cards not the holder as many stated above. I think it will be interesting to see what prices these cards get, this will help with estimating T206 card graded by BVG, because there really is not that much statistical data on pricing.<br /><br />Jimmy<br />

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>My point is now moot! I have decided I will look into possibly bidding on the card, although even if I do bid, I doubt I'll win the card. But before I do, I will take some steps to make sure if/when I bid (actually, I already have made an important step), it will be with full effort, and not a reduced rate due to small possibilities of something bad happening - because I'll take steps to eliminate those small possibilities. I can't wait til April/May, it will be another fun auction season.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>If it were me, on a card like that, I would not be bidding less because of the holder. I would either have complete confidence and go for it, or not. With that card and the place it is being auctioned, I would have complete confidence.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p><br /><br /><br />"...Beckett may get more comfortable about grading prewar vintage cards and have a strong collector base. They may have some problems with grading vintage, but that can be improved..."<br /><br />I figure all they need to do is get a few experienced people in place to verify authenticity, after that they can let the monkeys loose on the cards, like they do at PSA.<br /><br />I'd venture to guess that the price realized for the Wagner will be on par with a PSA graded Wagner because REA is selling it. The winner of the auction can resubmit to PSA if they want to. I'd venture to guess that if the grade was too liberal that REA wouldn't endorse the sale, also making the grade to liberal or too strict wouldn't be in the best interest of BVG.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>A shameless plug of sorts, I found out about the Wagner about a week and a half ago, I have a set of 1914 Cracker Jack Cards and a set of 1915 Cracker Jack Cards consigned in the same sale. When I heard about the Wagner, I knew that the spring sale was going to be something special. It should make for a great catalog to leaf through.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Hey Brian (and Josh): Dadgummit, what the frick happened last night???? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>