over hyped , and over priced pre-war cards!

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Posted By: <b>marty</b><p>there was a mild discussion on the post war board about mickey mantle cards being over hyped and over priced.<br /><br />what cards (or sets)are the same in the pre-war world?? may i toss one out there, dare i say joe jackson 1915 cracker jack? (for full disclosure i own one, (shooting myself in the foot eh!,lol)<br /><br />please note- i am talking about issue's and sets that are continuously overdone.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>t204's and boston garter

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Posted By: <b>marty</b><p>dennis-yes t204, a nice set, but boy even graded 1's and 2's are pricey, there is a w.j. psa 1 for 10k right now on ebay. worth it or not? matter of one's opinion.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>High grade strip cards (idiotic)......

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Posted By: <b>marty</b><p>leon-you mean 2k for a psa 3 ruth strip is a no no? how dare you. lol, you are ecactly right! i love strip cards, but i can't collect them, why not? because i refuse to pay crazy $$$ for graded examples, eg. psa 8 ruth's and cobb's getting or should i say asking $1500-2000 for them, i even tried to make a good offer to a certain few on ebay, no dice, they won't budge, and even raw examples get bid like crazy! i don't know anything realy about strip cards, i think i am just missing something on that particual issue, scarcity and such, to justify high prices, why else can't i compete?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>t206 Wagner

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>N167 Old Judge Buck Ewing (especially SGC 30s) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>From what I have seen, the spread between high-grade and low-grade strip cards is a small fraction of the spread between high-grade and low-grade cards from other pre-war sets.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>between some high grade strip cards from low grade strip cards!<br /><br />Some of those issues look terrible, regardless of whether or not they have sharp corners.

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>I sold some strip cards a while ago and they are popping up back for sale. It seems like people think they are very rare.. .some issues are available ... I just picked up 3 more complete sets of the same issue... w551.. Heritage sold a complete strip for under 2k and that is outrageous I think........ I guess it depends on what strips your talking about.. I think the w551 is very plentiful and way way overpriced... Just my opinion

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>T206 Cobbs.

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>T206 Cobbs are expensive but I do not think they are either overpriced or overhyped. The demand is huge.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>All "N" cards!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"t204's and boston garter"...<br /><br />dennis- being a new BG owner, i have to respectfully disagree...they are VERY tuff to locate. and it's a miracle they survived in one piece (being so large)...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Just the T206 Cobb, red. Other Cobb T206's not overpriced.<br /><br />The 1933 Goudey Ruth's seem overpriced - a PSA 5 runs $3,500-4,000. I have a hard time chinking down that kind of change when I could get a T206 Cobb bat on/off in same grade and still have a little over $1k left.<br /><br />steve

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>E90-1 Joe Jackson<br />T206 Doyle NL<br />Scarce Commons for all issues

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>e90-1 jackson for sure<br />e107 **** beaters<br />and E98 matty...great card but way overpriced compared to other caramels<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>I would have to add the E97/E98/etc "Cy" Youngs that actually picture Irv Young. Also, The T3 Frank Baker, since it actually pictures Jack Barry.<br /><br />I just don't understand why people insist on paying HOF prices for cards that don't picture HOFers.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Mike, not everyone likes pictures of baseball players in their underwear. I am happy you get enjoyment out of it... not that there is anything wrong with that.<br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Boston Garters? the second color issues do not have men wearing panties , do your homework.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The 1912 Boston Garter players are more covered up than a Wimbleton tennis player in his warmups. Lawrence Welk showed more skin when he met the Pope.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>just got in from a night out...<br /><br />Rhett- i have a 1913 color evers garter...full uniform.<br /><br />be well.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />Whilst one can apply a variety of measures for determining whether<br />or not a given item is over-hyped or over-priced, we would suggest<br />that the most appropriate metric to consider is market price.<br /><br />In theory, (at least for graded examples) one should consider the<br />PSA and SGC population reports and then review (not yet available)<br />three years of data from VintageCardPricescom. One could then analyze<br />price trends as well as the number of times the item has been available<br />on the open market.<br /><br />Ultimately price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand,<br />and it is difficult to argue that an item is over-hyped or over-priced<br />if an unbiased analysis of the "facts" proves otherwise.<br /><br />Of course, there are external factors that impact price which include<br /><br />(1)Seller's presentation-(catalog description,marketing efforts etc)<br />(2)Overall economic conditions<br />(3)Condition- which in the case of this hobby segments the market rather quickly<br />(4) Who Needs the item- If the card is "obscure" there can be wild price fluctuations-<br />especially after a major national auction<br /><br />Our hope is that sometime in the not too distant future a site like Vintage Card<br />Price.com will be able to provide everyone with population data as well as auction<br />performance data for a three year period.<br /><br />We believe that if and when this occurs, it will be far more difficult to over-hype<br />a rare piece of cardboard.<br /><br />We appreciate your consideration in this matter<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Duly note that knickers means underwear in England. A Liverpudlian might find it curious to hear that the 1869 Reds played in knickers.

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Posted By: <b>marty</b><p>"Ultimately price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand" <br /><br /> realy bruce! then explain why just about every mantle issue is well above the pack? supply and demand, please check the pop report for the 56 mantle, or how about the 65 mantle, i love the mick bruce, but i will not pay $2500 for his 59 issue, or $500+ for his 69 card, these are for sale every week, that shoots down the demand and the supply because they are there for the puchase, every week, every auction. imho i dissagree.

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Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br />marty'<br /><br />We believe that the discussion's focus was on pre-war cards.<br /><br />Mr. Mantle did not begin play until 1951.<br /><br />There are a very few names, i.e. Ruth, Mantle, Cobb where the<br />price remains strong despite a large number of available examples.<br /><br />Quite simply, there are many collectors (and non-collectors) who<br />want to own a Mantle or a Ruth card. It also appears that dealers<br />feel comfortable paying close to retail for these players as they<br />move well at shows and on E Bay.<br /><br />We also must remember that some items appear to infrequently<br />that prior history is either not going to be an indicator. If a card<br />only appears in a public auction once every five years, then the<br />price is going to be determined by the select few collectors who<br />have an interest. <br /><br />Under the right circumstances, the card could sell for 5x or 10x book<br />because the "book" is based on an out-of date reference and/or<br />someone's best guess.<br /><br />Prices vary significantly for pre-War cards because so many examples<br />are rare. thinly traded and draw only two or three fiercely competitive<br />bidders. A subsequent auction often results in a substantial price swing.<br /><br />In general,we do believe that the market is an accurate predictor of<br />price and that the impact of "hyping" is limited.<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Wow guys, it was a joke. Do your homework- who said we were talking about the second set? I assumed since we were talking about "overpriced" cards we were referring to the first set. I agree that the second set is among the most beautiful sets ever produced.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>From what I see, most of the most popular issues are nice issues. T206, Cracker Jacks, T3s, T204, 1933 Goudey, may or may not be overhyped, but they're also fine sets.<br /><br />Due to rarity alone, the Boston Garter of a Christy Mathewson or Ty Cobb will always be expensive. Personally, I'm a fan of the 1912 Boston Garters anyway.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>not underwear- women wear panties and the men wear "MANTIES", so to be corrected,the 1912 issue are in "Manties". Thank you.<br /><br />question? The 1912 Garters should be labeled 13's as the ones graded in "Hunt Auctions" were 14's.The b&w should be labeled 15's, so where does this get straightened out or has it been?<br /><br />I have seen the b&w in auctions regarded as 14's.<br /><br />edited to be correct

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>dare I say E107's.

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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>Basically anything with the letter E in front of it. E90-1 through E107.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p>Bruce wrote:<br /><i>"Ultimately price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand"</i><br /><br />Marty responded with:<br /><i>"realy bruce! then explain why just about every mantle issue is well above the pack? supply and demand, please check the pop report for the 56 mantle, or how about the 65 mantle, i love the mick bruce, but i will not pay $2500 for his 59 issue, or $500+ for his 69 card, these are for sale every week, that shoots down the demand and the supply because they are there for the puchase, every week, every auction. imho i dissagree."</i><br /><br /><br /><br />Marty,<br /><br />Your comments show that Bruce is correct. It's not just a matter of supply/availability; it's a matter of where supply and demand meet -- which is at a certain price point. Your comfortable price point is not high enough to purchase a 1959 Topps Mantle in PSA 8. Demand for that card is larger than supply at your price point.<br /><br />Tom

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>why do you feel e107's are over hyped/priced? Just curious.

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>I didn't realize I wrote E107's twice...oh well...I guess...to me...to pay 4-600 for a card that is barely distinguishable as a card...as I've seen bunches of e107 beaters sell for in the past is absurd to me. I realize they are quite scarce...esp hof'ers...they were the first real set of the 20th century...but...for me...they are way overpriced...and overhyped. Keep in mind I used to be a type collector...I used to get really excited by a rare back or obscure factory designation. But with the gross increase in prices over the past few years...my excitement cannot surpass the high cost of procurement.<br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>marty</b><p>tom, ok great, then the card is not diffucult to obtain! only for me because i won't pay $2,500+. so if i am "out of the loop" for that card then it's right on for the majority, so you would agree that it is "tough" to get? after all supply/demand give you price avg. therefore the card is not easy to find because demand is keeping up with supply? this is right correct? so when it comes up for sale it sells, because demand keeps up with supply! and this holds true for every card correct tom? it must because the demand is there. lets just stick with that card since this is where your point is made.<br /><br /> all on e bay right now.<br /><br />1959-psa 8 m. mantle-360020087127-$2,500<br />1959-psa-8-m. mantle-320208950799-$2,500 (make offer)<br />1959-psa-8-m. mantle-220158184452- $2,899<br />1959-psa-8-m. mantle- 370018417334-$3,000<br /><br />1959-gai 7.5-130085498558-$925 (make offer) isn't this a steal!<br /><br />i done this check right after i read your post, i won't pay $2,500 because i think it's over priced, you say supply/demand meet and then you get the price people want to pay, so therefore it's priced right. granted 2 cards are above $2,500, but there are 2 at $2,500 and 1 could be had cheaper, and he 7.5 is a supper steal compared to the 8 prices! if demand is keeping up with supply and it's priced right "just not for me" whay are these not sold?? it comes down to opinion, and i respect your's, but i don't agree with it, can you respect mine? i will never concede that there are no overpriced and overhyped cards!! i didn't respond to bruce or whomever else is posting with him because i think it's absurd to think it only applys to post war cards, i won't get into it with either you or bruce, because i don't agree all pre-war prices are sopt on!, and that your formula is valid, if you have read all the post's you will notice many not agreeing to the other's opinion of what card/s are over done, it's all a matter of one's opinion right tom? but thanks for your response, your entitled to it.....marty