How it all Started with My First Tobacco(??) Card (H-801-7 Old Mill cabinets)

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Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>I just thought I would finally post the info I have on these very scarce & beautiful Cabinet cards.I recieved my first Old Mill Cabinet card from my late Uncle.The player was Woolums & it started me on my goal of trying to complete the set.At that time my Checklist only listed 22 subjects.As I continued searching for the cards I ended up with 21 cards,14 diff. & 7 dupes.My conversation with my Uncle was one I will never forget & I had other chats & letters from other Hobby Pioneers indicating the mysteries of these cards.The info as told to myself indicated the Cabinet cards were made for 2 reasons.Reason 1 was to protect the actual packs from being crushed or damaged.Reason 2 is very logical they were used by the Shop owner to display the Old Mill Cigarettes.Of the 21 cards I had in my posession 17 of them had tack holes in the top & bottom border & the different colors on the border's was not due to the printing process,it was due to the discoloration from the light.You can find these border colors from tan,green & a rusty brown color with some cards showing mildew spots.My checklist that I have consist of 37 subjects.I will list these cards in the order I had them in an album but more about these large treasures.Of the 37 I have checklisted only one card was never seen by myself as the other's were because of the documention I was recieving from other collector's of that time.The Gaston card is that example.The easiest card was in fact the Woolums.The dupes I had were as follows; Bonner (2),Woolums(3) & Wallace (2).Here is the checklist of Old Mill Cabinets,any card denoted with an asterisk indicates I owned that card.In no particular order:<br />Bonner*,Doyle*,Fox*Galvin*,Hobbs*,Hooker*,McKevitt *,Richardson*,Spicer*,Spratt*,Titman*,Wallace*,Weh rell* & Woolums*.The next list are cards that I had seen except for the Gaston: Armstrong,Bentley,Bowen,Brazell,Bush,Bussey,Cross, Derrick,Doane,Gaston**,Griffin,Hearn,Kirkpatrick,L aughlin,Munson,Noojin,O'Halloran,Pressly,Revell,Ri ckard,Simmons,A.Smith & Zimmerman.The Gaston was reported to myself years ago by someone replying to my Wanted ad & I never was able to work out a deal for the card & I never saw any photocopy so it is listed with an <i>Asterisk</i>.There are cards that were mispelled as well but this list is one I compiled in 1991.From what I have learned from other notable collectors in the early 80's is these cards could not be given away by saving the coupons.The reason these cards are so scarce is because the shop owner only kept a few for displaying purposes & the others were either thrown out & those may of been taken by a collector back then.Of the cards I owned the average grade was g-vg.My best looking card was the Titman it would of graded EX.At least 12 of the 21 cards had light mildew stains on the fronts along with indent marks & the dreaded tack holes that adorn the top & bottom borders.Now my mission is to find some of my photographs I took of these cards,the checklist I found about 2 weeks ago so I thought why not discuss these cards as they are the sister set of the T-210 Old Mill cards.I have been asked if I thought there could be 640 of these cards & it was a easy reply.No! I don't think they made that many,I would say anywhere from 50-75 subjects is possible & only from the Virginia league.The one thing I am quite sure of is there is no advertising back like these cards.(OLD MILL CIGARETTES Blue Bloods everyone.Made of Virgina and Carolina Tobacco's-Pedigreed Leaf.Blended Exquisitely and wrapped in Genuine Wheat Straw Paper-The kind you have always used in rolling your own Cigaretes.Mild and satisfying.)The Noble Descents(Blue Bloods)Now do you see why these cards got the "H" designation versus the "T",I believe I am correct that the "H" designation was for advertising & if I am correct & you answered yes then the info from my late Uncle & the others is correct.If anyone has anything to add to this I welcome your comments,I hope I can find my photo's & if I do I will post.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Thanks for sharing your information. Not much to add though I only recently picked up my first one, Doane, and am very happy with it. ...It's really an extraordinary looking set of cards....I think collecting the fully known set would be rather expensive in today's market....regards

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Hello Ralph,<br /><br />Here is a link to a previous discussion we have had regarding the Old Mill Cabinets.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1171428761/last-1172454933/Here%27s+the+scoop+so+far" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1171428761/last-1172454933/Here%27s+the+scoop+so+far</a><br /><br />I'm curious as to whether you have seen any catcher poses other than Laughlin and Wingo?<br /><br />Both of these came to auction within a few months of each other a few years back.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1200012154.JPG"><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1200012182.JPG"><br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Ralph,<br /><br />Since your list does confirm that a Munson Old Mill Cabinet exists, I then can assume he's the third documented catcher in the set. Below is his T210. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1200013752.JPG"> <br /><br />Leon...Doane is one of three players not found in the T210 set.<br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51/20thcenturycabinetcards/OldMillcabH801-7-1910.jpg"><br /><br />I recently pickup up my first Old Mill cabinet. I don't think I will try for the complete set! Thanks for the great information, Ralph.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Ralph, that is one great post.<br />And I've gone crosseyed trying<br />to read it. I don't know why, but<br />it spreads across the screen<br />beyond the borders.<br /><br />So I have copied and pasted it to<br />Word, so I can save a copy, print<br />a copy, and read it once my<br />eyesight returns.<br /><br />Truly, thanks for the post!!<br /><br />Frank W.

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Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>I guess I missed the last post about these cards but from the ones posted I saw one with the dreaded tack holes & the different border colors.I habve no price guide for these cards so now my question to you members is this:Are there any cards from my checklist that are not seen in a checklist from a price guide?The list I found was the list I actually put together myself from cards I picked up & saw in my earlier collecting days so there could be more cards now as my list may need to be updated.Curious about the prices in the guides & Woolums I know is the easiest one to find.Is it possible that a price guide has all the cards priced the same value per card?<br />If anyone could share this info I would appreciate it.<br />Regards,<br />Ralph.<br /><br />Patrick I can't get the link to open.Comes back as page not found...Dang computer <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Edited because of my vision.I do see the Wingo card which I did not have checklisted & I am attempting to open the link & see if there was a checklist from that post.Dang this site is great,Thank-You Leon for having such a informative site for older cardboard <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Hi Ralph,<br /><br />I have copied the thread for you.<br /><br />Here's the scoop so far<br />February 13 2007 at 11:52 PM <br />Patrick McMenemy (Login vintagecatcher) <br /><br /><br />Response to OLD MILL cabinets....H801-7....any out there ? <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />Adam:<br /><br />Lew Lipset lists 28 known Old Mill cabinets. He doesn't list JC's Bonner or the Wingo found earlier this year. <br /><br />Therefore, out of the 30 known H807-1 Old Mill Cabinets that I'm aware of, here's the breakdown:<br /><br />Per Lew: 3 Players in the H801-7 Cabinets are not listed in the T210 set. (Doane, Hearn, and Spratt)<br /><br />Of the remaining 27 players represented: 17 are from Series No. 2 (Virginia League), 8 are from Series 5 (Carolina League), and only 2 from Series 6 (Eastern Carolina League).<br /><br />At first, I thought this was strange....where are the other Series cards? However, I then read the ad on the back of the H807-1 cabinet: "OLD MILL CIGARETTES....Blue bloods every one. Made of Virginia and Carolina tobaccos--pedigreed leaf." <br /><br />Of course! That's why the Virginia and Carolina Leagues are featured!<br /><br />I think, therefore, it is safe to say that since Joe Jackson was in Series 8 (Southern Association) that there isn't a Jackson H807-1.<br /><br />Patrick<br /><br />If you want to view previous discussions Ralph...on the Forum 54 Home Page click on SEARCH POSTS...then select MATCH and key in Old Mill Cabinets in the search for box.<br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>Thanks very much Patrick for posting that post.Hmmmm I noticed in a earlier post someone had shown a scan of the Wingo & in this post you say that the Wingo & Bonner were recent finds.I had 3 Bonner cards but I had no Wingo card listed,this is why I love researching these cards.There are many other's I believe that have not seen the light of day & will be found & I am sticking to my guess of 75 subjects as with everything ,Time will tell.

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>I added Ralph's additional players to my checklist. I was pleased to see that, to date, my theory that Old Mill Cabinets were issued only for the Virginia League (Series #2), Carolina Association (Series #5), and the Eastern Carolina League (Series #6) players has held true.<br /><br />From the 28 subjects known in 1986 and documented by Lew Lipset in his The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Volume 3, an additional 10 players can be added. My checklist has 38 examples. I'll need to see if SCD has any additions listed in their price guide.<br /><br />By my calculations, 14 teams are represented in the confirmed examples. The breakdown is as follows:<br /><br />Anderson 1<br />Charlotte 2<br />Danville 4<br />Fayetteville 2<br />Greensboro 4<br />Greenville 2<br />Lynchburg 3<br />Norfolk 4<br />Petersboro 3<br />Raleigh 3<br />Richmond 3<br />Roanoke 4<br />Wilson 2<br />Winston-Salem 1<br /> ----<br />Total 38<br /><br />21 from Series #2<br />10 from Series #5<br /> 7 from Series #6<br /><br />Patrick<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>Patrick great post and I like the breakdown you listed.If you have the prices for these cards check & see if my theory is correct that Woolums is listed a bit lower.I never bought any guides that listed these cards so it would be good to see as I said earlier I made my own list from the cards I saw & owned for my personal collection and back then these cards were more plentiful as were the 210's I am very happy & proud to say I was the second person who completed the complete set of 640 known subjects & I know of another collecting friend who is one card shy.

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Hi Ralph,<br /><br />I hope to check out the bookstore tomrrow to see what the 2008 SCD price guide has for a checklist/prices for the Old Mill Cabinets.<br /><br />When the Laughlin and Wingo Old Mill Cabinets were auctioned off within probably six months of each other, I believe, they sold for between $5,000-$5,500 if my memory is correct.<br /><br />Because they are one of the tougher cabinets to find, they all command a premium. Eventhough you had 3 copies of one player, it would have little influence on the pricing. <br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>I look forward Patrick to the post & values for the Woolums & that card is so plentiful I'll go out on a limb & say it will have a lower value than the others.Thanks for your info as I document this and it helps in keeping the collectors up to date with the checklists.Also check the checklist in the new price guide to see if they have any cards listed that we don't have on our checklists & vice versa <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Hi Ralph,<br /><br />The 2008 SCD Price Guide lists 37 players. The brief set introduction says there are 34 known examples, and then they list 37. The only difference is they don't have Gaston. <br /><br />The guide prices for each of the players are as follows:<br /><br />NM= $7,500<br />EX= $3,750<br />VG= $2,250<br /><br />I have started saving scans of the cabinets to go with the checklist. So far, I have scans for:<br /><br />Bonner,Bowen, Doane, Fox, Laughlin, Simmons, Wallace, and Wingo.<br /><br />If anyone has any others feel free to post the scan or email me.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>For reference I paid exactly 5k after juice for my recent pick up of Doane in a nice solid vg.....I thought it was about market price...The book is low on these....

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Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>Thanks Patrick for the last post.My question to you is this Did the checklist you looked at yesterdsay have Spicer?I knew Gaston wouldn't be there as I never had got a photocopy and the potential seller at that time never replied back & back then our correspondence was the mail & phone & not the web.The Web is great for picking up cards but if you think about it doesn't the competition make one pay higher prices.I still remember the good 'ol mail auctions where no one saw your bid you just mailed in your bid etc... Ahhh those days are in the past but the memories will never be forgotten.

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Hi Ralph,<br /><br />The only player not listed was Gaston. <br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Ralph,<br /><br />I was at the bookstore a few days back and noticed that Spicer was not listed in the 2008 SCD price guide. I'll need to bring my list to see which player is listed that is not on the previous list I put together. Sorry for the bad info.<br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Ralph,<br /><br />I checked the 2008 SCD price guide again today and compared it with my list of 38. There are several errors on the SCD checklist. The guide mentions in the description that there are 34 known examples. The guide does not have Gaston or Spicer, and it lists players 1-37, however, number 31 is missing. <br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>Patrick have been away from the computer & since I saw the thread disappear on the second page I did not check back until today.Spicer was one in which I owned,the lists I made was from cards I actually saw or owned.The Gaston I mentioned because it was a card that was offered to me years ago but the owner never got back with any kind of photo-copy.The Spicer does exists & there are other "Sleeper" cards that will pop up in time.I thank-you for the checklists you have added to this thread as it helps everyone on the board stay up to date with these cards.If I ever find any new ones to add to the list I will post them on this thread.<br />Regards,<br />Ralph.