T206 Johnson psa/dna ended early???? [Archive]

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12-24-2007, 07:15 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorWhen I saw this listing, I shared my signed T206 collection with the seller. I showed him my website and described how important it was for me to add this card to my collection. That set off a very long and interesting e-mail conversation that took us through the entire week. In the end, he was very interested in giving the Johnson a good home and also having a place that he could go visit it at any time. He is a very old school collector with quite a collection that he is only just starting to part with. I am intrigued to see what else he has to offer and also to develop my relationship with him. Putting aside his promises not to end the auction early, he is a very stand up guy and really a gentleman. When I get the Johnson home, hopefully sometime later this week, I will be posting additional scans and plan to have a webpage or two devoted to the card and Walter Johnson generally. That was all part of the deal. With respect to price, the seller and I agreed to keep that between ourselves. Suffice to say, this was not a bargain and a $6,000 snipe or $8,000 bid would not have gotten it done. This was my second most expensive purchase of all time by a long shot (trailing only my Eddie Plank), caused me to sell virtually all of my remaining unsigned T206 cards to help subsidize the cost and will shut me down from further purchases for at least the foreseeable future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-24-2007, 07:19 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPaul, good for you, it's a great(est) addition. I also appreciate that you informed the $6000 and $8000 bidders that they wouldn't have won the card anyway had the auction run it's course; these bidders would have not slept tonight otherwise. Congrats!

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12-24-2007, 07:19 PM

Posted By: RhysI know it is in a PSA/DNA holder and that is the bottom line, but I do not like the looks of that signature. Some of the telltale marks of a good Johnson are missing and it looks very deliberate. I am not an authenticator, but as someone who has owned several authentic Walter Johnson signatures and am familiar with them as an autograph collector, I would have laughed at that signature had it not already been authenticated.

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12-24-2007, 07:21 PM

Posted By: Rob DewolfPutting aside his promises not to end the auction early, he is a very stand up guy and really a gentleman. <Laughing out loud>

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12-24-2007, 07:24 PM

Posted By: T206Collector....is definitely a risky venture. In the end, unless you saw the person sign it you are taking a leap of faith. The card was apparently graded during the Spence/Grad era and, notwithstanding some of the dirt flung towards Spence lately for a poor Sal Bando decision, he is the guy I trust most with my vintage signatures. Ultimately, if you are going to collect deadball era signatures on tobacco and caramel cards there will always be some measure of lingering doubt. But if you have a chance to acquire Walter Johnson on a T206 card, and one of the most, if not the most, respected authenticators in the hobby says its real, that is a chance I have to take. Frankly, it comes with the territory. And, in the end, it's only money. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-24-2007, 07:25 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRob, fair point. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But considering how much Paul wanted this card, had the seller been Jeffrey Dahmer Paul would have still said, "putting aside the seller's penchant for eating strangers, he is a really stand up guy." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> If it had been a signed Hal Chase T206 I would have been saying the same thing....

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12-24-2007, 07:28 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...about that Jeff. But the reason I wrote that is because he chose to share the card with someone (me) who will absolutely cherish it and he knows that and that was what moved him most to part with it. Obviously there was a financial consideration, too. But in the end, it is true, I am totally and completely biased. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-24-2007, 07:35 PM

Posted By: James FeaginPaul, While I respect your passion about signed T206 cards, I think myself and others will question you going to the seller and essentially asking him to break a promise he made. I understand you will cherish the card, but just because you have a website doesn't mean it will mean more to you than any other signed T206 collector (which there are a few) James

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12-24-2007, 07:41 PM

Posted By: Rob DewolfFor the record, I don't question Paul at all for doing what he thought necessary to get the card. It was the seller's decision to place a higher value on a sum of money than on his word. That's not Paul's fault. But to praise the seller as being a stand-up guy ...

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12-24-2007, 07:43 PM

Posted By: James FeaginYou know what they say, money talks B.S. walks.

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12-24-2007, 07:47 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...holier than thou. If that's the way I came across, then I apologize. However, I hardly think that asking a seller to end an auction early, even when he represents that he won't, is a bad idea. I have personally lost out on the ability to bid in too many auctions to lose out to an enterprising would-be bidder who would undercut me in this particular auction. For me, it was too important to risk losing at just about any reasonable price point that I could anticipate. While getting more deeply into the personal discussions I had with the seller would, no doubt, help address some of the concerns raised here, it really is none of anybody's business. And so I'll keep the personal details to myself. When cards show up on ebay, there are no guarantees that they're going to make it to closing. No matter what the seller says. When those cards are once in a lifetime cards, you owe it to yourself to make the best run at it that you can. Otherwise, you may just miss it. And with this card, I was not prepared to miss it. Even at the risk of coming across a bit salty. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-24-2007, 07:50 PM

Posted By: MattI don't think asking to end a listing early is in poor form either; however, when the seller has already denied several people that request and made that statement publicly in the listing, it's a different animal. I think must of us are just sour grapes (myself included) because the card is so cool.

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12-24-2007, 08:12 PM

Posted By: Jason Lgreat card, neat story...looking forward to seeing the pages you build around it! Did this guy have any interesting tobacco-era Cubbie items he might part with for a guy who cherishes his team?! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-24-2007, 08:16 PM

Posted By: AdamCongratulations to Paul, I think it's wonderful this card will now be with him. Regards, Adam

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12-24-2007, 08:19 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...But he didn't tell me about any Cubbies stuff. He's been collecting for years and has just started divesting himself of some pretty neat items. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-24-2007, 08:19 PM

Posted By: quani don't think anyone would've gone 12k+ for the card so either way the same person would've had it in the end. ...and a shrine for the card? lol the seller's a weird dude.

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12-24-2007, 08:20 PM

Posted By: Glen Turner....like I have always said get your card (signed or unsigned) in a PSA/DNA holder or a PSA 9 or 10 holder and it definitely increases its value whether or not it is an authentic signature or the card is graded correctly or not. I have had several experiences with PSA/DNA authenticating autographs. Here is two of my favorite stories. In 1965 at the Continental Hotel in Houston, Texas, I personally watched Mr. Clemente sign 3 cards for me. Well, I decided to send them to PSA for authenticating and guess what? Only one of the THREE cards got authenticated. In the early 1960s I sent a 1960 and a 1961 Fleer Baseball Greats cards to Paul Waner. I received them both back signed in the same ink and the same envelope from Mr. Waner. I sent them to PSA and they authenticated one of the TWO cards. I have always said no matter whether they authenticate your signature or question your signature's authenticity, PSA has YOUR money in the bank. Same goes with graded cards. Whether your card is graded correctly or under or overgraded PSA has YOUR money in the bank. I am not saying they don't try to do their BEST, I am just saying bottom line is that they still have YOUR money in the bank. Just my own experiences and my opinion.

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12-24-2007, 08:27 PM

Posted By: JK"I don't think asking to end a listing early is in poor form either; when the seller has already denied several people that request and made that statement publicly in the listing, it's a different animal" Yes, he said he wouldnt end it, but he certainly didnt deny anyone the chance to make an offer. I do agree that everyone bitching about this would have done the same thing in a heartbeat and it amounts to nothing but sour grapes. Paul, great card. Enjoy it!

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12-24-2007, 08:48 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonFor the information of all - The Better Business Bureau of Southern California has given PSA-DNA a rating of D. The only worse grade they give is an F. At one time in the past they had an F. They also had a B at one point in time. The BBB states that a D means "We have enough concerns about this company that we recommend caution in doing business with them". -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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12-24-2007, 09:00 PM

Posted By: John"i don't think anyone would've gone 12k+ for the card so either way the same person would've had it in the end." I wouldn't be so sure about that Quan.... Besides we could have easily found out if the above statement was true, had the auction been allowed finish I guess we would have found out who wanted it and was willing to pay for it.

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12-24-2007, 09:23 PM

Posted By: BrettSigned pre war cards are pretty neat and i often wonder what year the players signed some of these. It would be cool if someone had a signed one during the years that the cards were actually made or sometime during their playing days. I'd love to own a signed e98 Mathewson or a signed e94 Wagner <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Does anyone have a list of known signed caramel t206 era cards ???

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12-24-2007, 09:58 PM

Posted By: AdamBrett's question made me think of 2 questions: (1) Based on the autographed T206s that people on the Board either own or remember seeing in an auction etc. at one point in time, could one compile a list of all autographed T206s that are known to exist? (That may be a cool additional thing for your website Paul); (2) Did anyone know that an authographed Walter Johnson T206 card even existed before that eBay auction?

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12-24-2007, 10:17 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldBrett - I think signed caramel cards are much more scarce than signed tobacco cards. I know Paul has an E95 Doyle. I remember a few years back, someone owned an E95 signed Carrigan although I have no idea what has happened to it. I also have an E96 signed Mack. I'm not sure of any other 1910s era signed caramel cards although I'm sure some other float around.

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12-24-2007, 10:20 PM

Posted By: Glen TurnerRead RHYS, RICHARD SIMON and my other post. Just because it is in a PSA holder does not mean there is not room for error. The only thing it means is an easier sell and more dollars for the seller. Again just my opinion.

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12-24-2007, 10:38 PM

Posted By: Fred CIf the signature is real then thats a totally awesome piece! It would have been interesting to see how the auction would have ended but at least two collectors got together and had a nice old school baseball card discussion. I know this may sound sappy but sometimes it's just not the money. It's knowing that you've sold something to someone that really will enjoy/appreciate the card.

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12-24-2007, 10:54 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCnothing personal Paul, i'm just not a huge fan of what happened here...i just think it should have stayed its course and finished properly...the winner should have to fight for it all the way til the end (especially a big-ticket item)...there could have been several people watching it, who had ridiculously high snipes in place...my guess is that somewhere, someone (or maybe several people) are NOT happy. oh well...we'll never know.

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12-24-2007, 11:16 PM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyOnce there are legitimate bids on an item I am pretty much against asking to end the item. I will admit I have have asked people to end items (or preferably add a Buy It Now) on ebay before (as many people have) but I have never done so once a legitimate bid has been placed, just doesn't seem right to me. This case was definately a little wierd how everything played out. It does seem unusual that if the individual that eventually got it was so sure he would have topped all bids, why not just bid on the thing and do it the old fashioned way. All that being said, add me to the list of those skeptical of this pieces authenticity. It would be nice if there was some actual provenance to go along with it. Most signed tobacco cards were signed MUCH later (late 60's & early 70's) than the time of issue, and many are players featured in "The Glory of their Times", which sparked interest in them. Not to mention the fact that the autograph just doesn't seem to be correct when compared with the many exemplars I have personally handled/seen. -Rhett

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12-25-2007, 03:47 AM

Posted By: Dan Kravitz I was talking to an "old time" dealer yesterday about shows and long time dealers/collectors he knows. This guy would travel and set up in the 80's and 90's at almost every show. The cards he spoke about would be the cornerstone of any collection; full run of Rose Co. PC's, Mino Cobb, T208's, Garters, YumYum's etc. Anyway... Suffice it to say, he has seen a ton of cards. One thing stuck with me; with all of the rare and scarce issues he would see, he rarely saw mint t-206's and never saw signed dead ball era cards in general. He believes most signed cards were forged in the 90's and most grading companies have no idea what they are looking for. I agree with the latter. I have no idea about signatures from the 1900's (mainly cause I don't collect them), but I would be cautious about any signed card, even if it's authenticated. It seems that most if not all of us have asked sellers to end auctions early. If you are upset with the way it went down, the seller should take the brunt of your anger. The reason most of us know that he wouldn't end the auction early is that we asked him to do just that. Have a happy, healthy, and prosperous new year !!

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12-25-2007, 04:03 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...I wouldn't have been outbid. On ebay, unlike most other auction formats, which give you a chance to extend the time of the auction in extended bidding, you never know what snipes are lurking in the dark. Hence my interest in ending the auction early. We'll never know if someone else was coming in higher than what I paid--but what I paid was higher than the prices discussed above. My website does attempt to establish all known T206 cards signed by players. I have heard stories about Cicotte and Young, in addition to all those mentioned in my Signed T206 article on my site--but I've never had visual confirmation of those cards or independent proof of their authentication. But I sure didn't know about this Johnson before this listing, and I am counting on there being many others out there. With respect to Caramel cards, I have also seen a George McBride signed E-card -- I forget the set name, but it is the one where the players all look the same except for Plank and a few others. That's why I passed on it. In the end, I can totally appreciate why there are unhappy collectors out there. But when it comes to signed T206 cards that are not on in my collection, I will make very aggressive pushes to get them. It is just about all I collect anymore. I have a few more thoughts about authenticity, but I'll leave those for another thread or my blog. But I think I tackled most of what I want to say on that score already. The only thing I will add now is that prior to bidding, I searched numerous authentic examples of Johnson's signature and found several that were dead on with this one. In any event, Merry Christmas Eve! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 04:57 AM

Posted By: JohnThe way I see it there are only two reasons to end and auction early. #1.) To take advantage of a seller who doesn’t know better and get a card well below market value etc. #2.) Or the fear and knowledge of being outbid because you know the item in question stands a strong chance of soaring past your budget, if an offline attempt isn’t made. “I never said...I wouldn't have been outbid. On ebay, unlike most other auction formats, which give you a chance to extend the time of the auction in extended bidding, you never know what snipes are lurking in the dark. Hence my interest in ending the auction early. I have a rule of thumb when it comes to this I think even Mike and I discussed this over drinks not too long ago. Place your max bid the most your willing to spend on the item if it holds it was yours all along, if not I guess someone wanted it that much more. “We'll never know if someone else was coming in higher than what I paid--but what I paid was higher than the prices discussed above.” Not now we won’t, that kind of goes without saying. This is why all sellers should list these kinds of items with auction houses then other collectors have to pay and bid with the rest of us, then the items go to the highest bidder…novel idea huh? I guess all is fair in love and war and now baseball cards. Just not a huge fan of the way this went down, not all Paul’s fault either. As for all the warm hugs and kisses in this thread about finding the right home and the right collector for the card etc. I’m calling B.S. given the right item/auction and I’m sure all of you would have a different point of view and would be a little less quick with the baseball card collecting rendition of Cumbaya. John **P.S. No offense Paul but really on this?? I cant help but laugh a bit out loud no offense…. "Last night, I completed negotiations with a very generous, old school collector -- a huge admirer of the "Train" -- who was, in the end, most concerned with a proper forum for displaying his prized baseball card: a signed T206 card of Hall of Fame pitcher Walter Johnson." I mean wouldn’t Cooperstown have worked out well if it meant so much to him? Not that www.t206collector.com with it’s 30+ days of history doesn’t have the same pull for making sure the item was put on display in the proper forum for ages to come. Is there legal paperwork to be signed still ensuring you wont sell the card anytime soon etc? Wow who knew baseball cards could be so heavy.

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12-25-2007, 05:48 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelviePaul,Congrats on your purchase and thanks for sharing the story.

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12-25-2007, 05:52 AM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldPaul - I can personally verify there being an authenticated Cicotte T-206. I do not own it, but I have seen it, held it, know exactly who owns it, etc - and probably can get a scan of it after the holidays.

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12-25-2007, 05:58 AM

Posted By: Joe D.I don't think Paul did anything wrong here. Heck, I don't think the seller did anything wrong here. He may have left money on the table - he may not have. either way - great pickup Paul - you are building a very cool collection.

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12-25-2007, 06:08 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...Of my website if you want. But it is an attempt at sharing all known information about signed pre-war cards. And it is obviously a young website. But do a little research--there is a spate of meaningful displays of historic cards in the world and the web has been and will continue to fill that void. I just want to be a part of preserving and sharing. And it was in that spirit that this transaction got done. The seller asked as part of the sale that he reference my website in the closed listing. It was important for him to know where it was going and that he could share it publicly. Call BS if you want. Heck I can even understand it. But to crap on my website? Why would you want to discourage it? Not very nice, in my opinion. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 06:18 AM

Posted By: JohnNot dumping on your website Paul don’t read into things, I’m just pointing out what I found to be odd if true. That the sellers primary concern was making sure the card was displayed for all to enjoy etc. I think the sellers primary concern was selling the card hence why he listed it on ebay for sale and brokered a side deal with you. And if that truly was his concern that his prized possession was to be enjoyed for many years to come, I was only pointing out that there are many other alternatives which ensure this very desire that are arguably better than a collector’s webpage…. Also for a guy with a take no prisoner’s attitude towards collecting, other collectors and auctions, I’m a bit surprised you’re so sensitive. I’m sure there’s a few folks who think ending the auction the way you did was not so nice.

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12-25-2007, 06:27 AM

Posted By: Art M.Seller listed the same card on Ebay in March 2006. Auction was ended early that time too: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8775253711" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8775253711</a>

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12-25-2007, 06:30 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorI can take the heat from competitive card collectors vying for the same card. I didn't appreciate your comments about my website--I still don't. They were personal in nature. And you can say my feelings are hypocritical given my practice. But my feelings on this one are that your words were hurtful and intended as such. No big deal. I usually agree with what you write. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 06:30 AM

Posted By: James FeaginPaul, You certainly know how to network and negotiate in a convincing matter and congratulations on the cards. I'm just not thrilled how this went down either. Not that I would have bid on it, but I've always come from the school of thought that a promise is a promise. The seller deserves most of the blame here, but they are called auctions for a reason. And the assertion "I just had to have it beceause it's a once in a lifetime and I will love the card more" just doesn't fly. There were probably other collectors who wanted to to see the auction through who didn't want to do this in an under-handed way. I feel they would have cherished the chance just as much as you. This isn't sour grapes (after all, they're just baseball cards), it's treating people the way you want to be treated. You mentioned how you felt when the shoe had been on the other foot, now you do the same thing? Merry Christmas and I hope you enjoy the card, James

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12-25-2007, 06:38 AM

Posted By: JohnPaul, I like your site I also like your collection. I just found it odd that this seller was moved to make this deal based on displaying of the item in question. Heck there are a lot of us here with webpages Paul, some with better collections than both of us put together LOL. I have to wonder two things if the auction went ahead as planned any winner could have displayed the card if they wanted too. Also he had obviously never heard of your or your webpage prior to listing the card, so I can’t help but scratch my head as to why this was a concern of his. I hope you understand where I’m coming from, my intention was not to hurt your feelings, just point out what I found to be an odd avenue and set of circumstances that led to this side deal. Have a great holiday Paul, and all head scratchers and questions aside enjoy your card.

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12-25-2007, 06:44 AM

Posted By: Joe D.I would like to elaborate on my 'no wrong done here' stance. Especially with the word 'hypocritical' brought up. I think any eBay buyer who feels badly when an auction closes early.... well that is hypocrisy at its best! Yes - you may feel as though the seller has made a mistake, or that the seller left money on the table - - but to somehow feel that something 'wrong' has been done by the eBay community.... again - hypocrisy. eBay buyers look for the bargain 24/7. They shun reserves even when reasonable. eBay buyers covet the auction that is placed in the wrong category (hmmmm.... do you point those out to the seller?) 90% of the time or better - eBay is the bargain basement for collectibles. So - in a marketplace where the 'buyer' is looking for the edge at the expense of the seller - I see no reason to cast blame on a seller who entertains the idea of ending an auction early. For all who think the seller did wrong. Please start alerting sellers when they have placed an auction in the wrong category that they might get more money with their item in a correct category. Until then.... I will call it hypocrisy to feel that you were wronged by an auction closing early.

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12-25-2007, 06:48 AM

Posted By: Dave FFunny many of the people on here getting on Paul for making a deal with the seller would do or have asked to do the same thing on other items. So why is this one any different? Congrats to Paul, the only person that did anything wrong was the seller noting in his auction he wouldnt end it early and everyone would get a chance...Paul didnt hold a gun to the guy's head to make him end it. If anything I may avoid the seller in the future knowing he will do this...or maybe I'll ask him to end something for me <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-25-2007, 06:55 AM

Posted By: JohnDave, care to elaborate I’ve never asked a seller to end an auction early…I bid in them but sadly many occasions never get to finish them because people end them early with side deals, emails etc. In fact if I haven’t seen 1 post on here complaining about this practice I’ve seen 50, now it’s ok with everyone??

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12-25-2007, 06:59 AM

Posted By: DougSince I probably didn't have a realistic chance of winning the card anyway, I'm glad that it went to a place where I can enjoy looking at it online for free. Not to sound like a suck up or anything, but I do enjoy your website and wanted to congratulate you on your newest addition!

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12-25-2007, 07:07 AM

Posted By: Ed Iveyditto what doug said. What an awesome treasure. My uncle, who grew up in DC and was 11 at the time, tells the story of when my granddad came in sadly to his bedroom, awoke him, and told him: "I just thought you'd want to know, the news says Walter Johnson has passed away". It was a shock, even to a child who never saw him play.

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12-25-2007, 07:23 AM

Posted By: Steve Who gives a rat's ass, really? Paul's only holding it for a while... Ya can't take all this pulp with you. Has anyone ever once seen a hearse pulling a U-Haul? Besides, I'd be hard pressed to find any of you without a Johnson of your own. I'm lucky to have one, but rest assured, I won't own it forever. Eureka! Old idea for a new thread.

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12-25-2007, 07:38 AM

Posted By: BrianWonka, I was struggling last night with my response. You have basically said everything I was thinking. Paul, you got a very fine card.

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12-25-2007, 07:44 AM

Posted By: pasA willing seller and a motivated buyer negotiated a price for a baseball card. End of story.

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12-25-2007, 08:05 AM

Posted By: Joe D.brevity is wonderful. You said in one sentence what took me a few paragraphs. I agree 100%

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12-25-2007, 08:20 AM

Posted By: shane leonardPaul, I think the card is an awesome pickup. I don't think you did anything wrong by negotiating outside of eBay. You made him an offer too good to pass and your website probably helped out as well. If there is a card I have to have, you bet I will email the guy directly to let him know I will buy it right now or I am a serious bidder on it. I appreciate your website and I think it is awesome that you have spent your time informing others like myself on T206s. Thanks and Merry Christmas, Shane

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12-25-2007, 08:25 AM

Posted By: James FeaginThis thread has been very telling for me.

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12-25-2007, 08:27 AM

Posted By: John"A willing seller and a motivated buyer negotiated a price for a baseball card. End of story." Yeah minus those poor suckers who were bidding or going to bid via snipes, who had the courtesy to let the auction run via the notes on the gentleman’s auction...it was clean transaction...well except for those other people involved. Correct me if I’m wrong but was this an auction or a sale on the BST???? Why were there negotiations taking place vs. bidding in the first place? Oh that’s right because the other folks who had put there bids in early and were following the auction rules weren’t included in the negotiation process for this card yet alone even aware it was open for negotiation behind close doors. Yeah seems clean cut to me…..

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12-25-2007, 08:46 AM

Posted By: James FeaginJohn, Game. Set. Match. Great post, James

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12-25-2007, 08:52 AM

Posted By: quanwonka i'm with u in that i've never asked a seller to end an auction early (when there are already bids)...but it's so commonplace these days amd seems to be an accepted practice so what can you do. most of the responsibility lies with the seller...and in this case if it was me i would "never ever ever x 10^100 end the auction early...unless you put the scans up on a website where I can go view it occasionally..." so I can see where he's coming from also.

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12-25-2007, 08:54 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethWonka how are you haven't seen you much of late, hope all is well. From my perspective ebay is just another way to sell a card. I see no problem with the guy ending it early or Paul "privately" neogtiating with him.

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12-25-2007, 08:55 AM

Posted By: James FeaginSince ebay is getting ripped out of their FV fees, I wonder if they will eventually shut down communications between buyer and seller (other than best offer). James

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12-25-2007, 09:04 AM

Posted By: Steve D I don't have a problem with what the buyer did. I do have a problem with what the seller did. As he did state publicly that he wouldn't end it early. Furthermore, I wonder what the tone of this thread would be like had the buyer not been a friend to this board? Would it still be 'Im glad that someone won it'? Steve D

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12-25-2007, 09:11 AM

Posted By: James FeaginSteve D, That is a vary fair point.

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12-25-2007, 09:11 AM

Posted By: JohnPeter, I’m good and you? I hear you and agree with Quan it’s become so second place its hard to impossible to avoid, but I still don’t have to like it and until further notice will trail the high road and bid even if the auctions get canceled early. Guess I’ll take them when I can get them. But I think Steve is onto something here…. ”Who gives a rat's ass, really? Paul's only holding it for a while... Ya can't take all this pulp with you. Has anyone ever once seen a hearse pulling a U-Haul?” We can let it slide when somebody snags an off ebay deal…we just have to wait until their untimely death….to get an uninterrupted pop at a particular card or a second chance if you will. LOL

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12-25-2007, 09:22 AM

Posted By: JoannThis whole topic is unfortunate because both sides are so completely and totally right. I think John Wonka hit it right on the nose with his two points above about why people ask to end auctions early. Wanting a steal or being worried about being able to stick out a last-minute fistfight probably account for the vast majority of early ends. But because of these actions, now people are really taking a chance if they decide to let an auction run its course for an unusual item. So if I were somehow adivising Paul through this process and was going to bear at least some responsibility for his outcome, I don't think I could - in good conscience - tell him to let the auction run its course even though I personally think no auctions should end early. There would be just too high of a chance that someone else would get it ended early, and his chance could be gone forever. I don't much like it, but the fact is that we have collectively created a situation in which it may not make sense to let an auction run. We did that. Not every person or individual, but the generic "we" of the collecting and dealing community. And the more "we" do it, the more people that disagree with the practice are almost forced to become part of it if they don't want to miss out on a very special card. Paul did what he all but had to do if he didn't want to run the very real risk of someone else getting it shut down. The fact that he and the seller clearly connected at a level beyond parties to a transaction - as collectors having a good old-fashioned conversation as Fred said - makes it a great story. Nice card Paul. I'm thrilled that it is in your collection. Joann And Wonka - to your point, if this happened in an auction for something that I really, really wanted, I'd be mad as a wet hen and spitting nails about it. So I do see that side of it. But if it were something truly important to me I probably would give strong consideration to trying to get it outside of ebay. There are just no good options or winners here.

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12-25-2007, 09:31 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanThe fact is, ebay got ripped off -- one of the reasons the seller was so happy to sell it offline (of course, he may have left money on the table). And it is wrong to try to both induce a seller to end an auction early and to do so as a seller. All that being said, 90% of us do it when there is a card we think we must have. To the other 10%: you're right.

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12-25-2007, 09:43 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI am sure ebay's fee structure takes into account that this will happen from time to time. I would not worry about ebay.

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12-25-2007, 09:46 AM

Posted By: Steve DEbay allows for it. Steve

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12-25-2007, 09:50 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaMuch ado about nothing....Paul got it. Congrats! Besides James F. he is the only person I know that specifically collects autographed T-206's and I'm glad he got it. But like I said earlier it sounds like he might not have gotten it if his wife hadn't built him his website so she deserves an extra Christmas present this year.

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12-25-2007, 09:57 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSteve, ebay allows for such a transaction even though it does not get any fees?

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12-25-2007, 09:59 AM

Posted By: JohnJoann; Good and fair points as always. “So if I were somehow adivising Paul through this process and was going to bear at least some responsibility for his outcome, I don't think I could - in good conscience - tell him to let the auction run its course even though I personally think no auctions should end early. There would be just too high of a chance that someone else would get it ended early, and his chance could be gone forever.” To me a good analogy would be “well somebody better steal this cash from the cash drawer since it’s already open, after all if I don’t take it someone surely will besides I need the cash anyways.” While I see exactly where you’re coming from and the double edge sword that lays within, one has to have some respect for the rules/guidelines set in place when it comes to these things if not then it’s a total free for all. Besides one cant always get what one wants when it comes to collecting, and as of late I cant count more cards lost to ebay Pirates raping and pillaging off line deals than cards I have won online. I think we have better choices than if you cant beat them join them. Just my two cents (which was my snipe on the card for the record .02 would I have won?) Regards, John P.S. This seems to be a pretty bold statement being tossed around by folks in this thread.…(not pointing the finger at you Dan) , besides I'm pretty sure I know of at least a few others off the top of my head. “Besides James F. he is the only person I know that specifically collects autographed T-206's and I'm glad he got it.” <a href="http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=170179209433" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=170179209433</a>

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12-25-2007, 10:11 AM

Posted By: Steve DJeff Ebay allows for a seller to end an auction early. I believe they give 3 or four reasons. They also allow for a seller to end an auction early, so an item can be sold to the current high bidder. So, to answer your question, yes. (Even though the seller is using a loophole to accomplish his goal). Ebay is also used by sellers and buyers to complete deals outside of the venue for full sets that do not sell during the time an auction runs. Some 1965 sets (at least 3 that I know of) have been known to sell in just that manner. Steve edited for typos

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12-25-2007, 10:12 AM

Posted By: LyleI am not one to jump into these ethical discussions , but the seller TOTALLY lied when he stated emphatically that he would not end the auction early so he is not a "stand up guy. " . Paul convinced him to bypass his word and purchased his integrity ,shutting everyone else out of the opportunity to buy the card . Maybe I am TOO honest for my own good , but my conscience would bother me on both ends of this transaction .BTW , no sour grapes here since I would not have bid on the card .

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12-25-2007, 10:13 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWonka, He and James are the only people I know that specifically collect T206 autographed cards. I'm not saying they are the only two people in the world. I am glad for Paul since he is one of the ones I know...And for the record I was one of those who never asked for auctions to end early, but as long as ebay allows for it I am forced to play that game...I have played the game and have not once been able to convince someone to end an item early for me. Perhaps next time I will show them my website! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-25-2007, 10:30 AM

Posted By: JoannJohn, I don't think it's quite like the cash drawer because in these cases the seller (leaver-outer of the cash, in your analogy) is willingly participating in the disappearance and believes he is acting in his own best interest. Not sure where the line should go, but I don't think I'd draw it there. I also really hate that the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality is emerging, but I don't know what else to do or what people should do. If only 20% of all collectors are willing to approach sellers offline no matter what (meaning they are not just piling on because they have to), should those 20% be the only ones to get all cards of sellers willing to shut down auctions? I don't know if it's fair for the 80% to miss out almost by definition. If I could have the world any way I wanted it, there would be a way to shut down the core minority (the mythical 20% above) from making the offline buys. If that happened, then I think a lot of people would stop on their own, preferring to let auctions run to the end. I just don't know how that would be done. So I am glad Paul got this card - definitely. But I wish that the environment were such that he could have confidently and comfortably let the auction run, knowing he could have counted on having a shot. Who knows - maybe he would have gotten it for even less money. Joann

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12-25-2007, 11:05 AM

Posted By: Frank B>>I also really hate that the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality is emerging, but I don't know what else to do or what people should do. If only 20% of all collectors are willing to approach sellers offline no matter what (meaning they are not just piling on because they have to), should those 20% be the only ones to get all cards of sellers willing to shut down auctions? I don't know if it's fair for the 80% to miss out almost by definition.<< Prisoners Dilemna - Sounds like "all's fair in war and cards."

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12-25-2007, 11:14 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorWhenever I see something I like, I always send the same message to the seller: "Please do not end this auction early. If you do decide to end this auction early, please let me make you an offer above which you have already received. Thank you." I really recommend it, given the current state of ebay and the competition for baseball cards. Sometimes the dealer/seller will give me a price, and sometimes he will tell me to go jump in a lake and sometimes I get ignored. But by doing this, I feel like I am never losing out on a chance to get a card because the seller is working offline with someone else. You may call this shady business practices, but I frankly think it is what is necessary to get some tough cards these days on ebay. Is it unfortunate it has come to this? Sure. Do I lose sleep over it? No. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 11:16 AM

Posted By: Jeff PrillamanRecently we listed a Rare Tiger Woods golf card. I had a dozen offers within an hour of the auction going live. We made the decision to let the auction run -- but one of the offers was simply this "Please look at my bid history and feedback, I am a serious buyer, I will top any offer you have to end this auction early by 10%." Now of course this buyer was nowhere to be found at the close of the auction -- but at some level his email might have played into my decision to let the auction run.

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12-25-2007, 11:28 AM

Posted By: JoannThere is a huge irony in this business of asking a seller to allow you to make a better offer than whatever they received before closing an auction, whether by X% or just a "better offer". If the seller says okay to giving an offeror the opportunity to top the otherwise best offer offline, isn't he actually running ... an auction? Just brings us aaaall full circle. Joann

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12-25-2007, 11:29 AM

Posted By: T206Collector....the seller has received such a large amount of hate mail today that he has decided to hold on to the card. I will not be getting it. Oh well. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 11:35 AM

Posted By: DRWhy you even 'bragged' about the purchase before it arrived is beyond comprehension? The outcome deserves you right!

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12-25-2007, 11:35 AM

Posted By: Steve DGeez that sucks, sorry that you are not getting the card now. Do you still feel like this guy is "standup" Now he reneges on what amounts to a handshake deal with you. Hie ebay handle does fit. Steve

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12-25-2007, 11:36 AM

Posted By: Steve DOh and btw one thing we all can take from this is not to expose yourself before you get the item in hand. Steve

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12-25-2007, 11:37 AM

Posted By: SteveDid they even have ballpoint pens back then?

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12-25-2007, 11:38 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPaul, that blows. The guy has started and stopped so many of his auctions, though...I can't say I'm surprised.

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12-25-2007, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Steve DLooks like a fountain pen sig to me. Steve D

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12-25-2007, 11:57 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaTalk about taking sour grapes to another level...Geez.

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12-25-2007, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Glen TurnerI have posted a couple of times on this thread. I am the only one to mention sending cards to PSA/DNA that I got signed in person that they rejected as Authenticity questionable. Am I the only person in the world that has had this happen to? Or can PSA do no wrong in everyone's eyes?

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12-25-2007, 12:01 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI would not have gone public without card in hand, except that a material aspect of this deal was that I would publish it on my website as he ended his auction. Again, he wanted to put the link to my website in his ended listing -- as he did. And then members of this board more or less asked me to weigh in, which I did because I enjoy this community. I don't think I did very much "bragging" at all. Again, I really felt this was in the spirit of sharing that the seller and I wanted to bring forth. You can keep calling it BS if you want, but I won't. I do still think he is a stand up guy. He forwarded me some of the nasty e-mails he has been getting -- sadly at least one from a guy on this forum -- and they would have made me feel uncomfortable, too. I certainly would not have wanted to get those e-mails on Christmas Eve. And I am pretty surprised people would say such things, but c'est la vie. I am happy for all the free publicity my website got! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 12:06 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanGlen, after the Spence/Sal Bando video fiasco I doubt many people feel very secure about any of the verification services -- especially Spence. Paul, you're not running for Mayor are you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-25-2007, 12:12 PM

Posted By: Dave FI still dont think that Paul did anything wrong...the seller did, but now he has done yet another thing wrong after backing out of this handshake deal with Paul. If he is getting all this "hatemail", doesnt matter what he does at this point...his reputation is already damaged.

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12-25-2007, 12:13 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI haven't chimed in yet but I am reading this thread with my jaw open, and the latest developement has only caused it to drop a little lower. All these machinations for a freaking baseball card. No wonder I stopped collecting a long time ago. I learned a very early lesson- that despite all the warm and fuzzy feelings people have about the hobby, about the history, about the friendships...it's always has been, and always will be, about the stuff. And while I have always tried to conduct my own business as professionally as I am able, I am still only as good as the stuff I have.....Oh Lordie. This discussion is a lulu. Happy Holidays to all.

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12-25-2007, 12:20 PM

Posted By: James FeaginJust for the record Dan, I now own exactly zero T206 autographed cards. I sold out in October to focus on other projects.

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12-25-2007, 12:22 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...my biggest loss was that darn Nap Rucker! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 12:29 PM

Posted By: barrysloatePaul- don't you agree that the seller getting hate mail for selling a baseball card early is a little over the top?

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12-25-2007, 12:34 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorBut it really doesn't surprise me very much. While most of the people that I have come to know through collecting would not do such a thing, there are some that would not be able to handle losing out on this card in a mature or professional manner. I believe those are the kinds of people that wrote what they did. At risk of painting too broad a stroke, the e-mails were not threatening or violent. They were just really pretty rude. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 12:41 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCinteresting development...i think several lessons can be taken from what happened here... for whatever it's worth now, i will share with everyone that i just got off the phone with a very close friend, who had a priliminary snipe of $11,000 on the card, and was logging-in to eBay to beef it up to $14,000...and he discovered that the auction had ended...needless to say, he is not happy right now. like i first stated way up top of this thread...it should have been fought for til the end...and won fair & square. Best- MS

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12-25-2007, 12:42 PM

Posted By: JoannWow. This just feels crappy all the way around. Paul, I'm sorry you lost your card. You were so clearly thrilled with it, and definitely weren't bragging in my book. It's too bad someone had to go and do that - email the seller. I think most of the conversation here was very well balanced and based on genuine beliefs. I didn't get a sense that anyone was over-the-top angry enough to interfere with the transaction. But then you never know who could be reading or maybe even not participating in the thread but decides to make trouble. And please don't anyone take that to mean that I am referring to people that responded in this thread. John W and I just had a pretty good conversation about the whole issue - with many others also putting in good thoughts. I certainly don't want anyone to think that just because someone took a position against this auction ending early they should be suspected of having emailed the seller. I just hope that whoever it was from here was a genuinely interested party, and not someone that just stumbled across this thread and saw an opportunity to try to hammer this seller. I'm not sure I agree that it was someone that couldn't handle losing the card. I'm more inclined to think that it's some idiot that saw a chance to play big-shot and complain to the seller without ever having the interest and/or wherewithal to compete for the card anyways. Joann

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12-25-2007, 12:46 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorThe person I am thinking about is actually someone who posted on this thread. But it is no big deal and I would not out them here or elsewhere. He knows who he is and can deal with it on his own.

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12-25-2007, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Rob DewolfThough I wouldn't ever endorse sending someone hate (e)mail -- not just regarding collecting but for any reason -- the seller certainly opened himself up for at the least criticism by stating so vehemently in his auction that he would not end the auction early and then doing just that. I really don't have problems with eBay sellers ending auctions early -- although I've certainly been disappointed many times when it has happened and think it's not too bright of a decision to make. But in this case I thought the seller showed his true colors -- and his decision to back out of his deal with Paul confirms that -- by making a side deal when he assured potential buyers that he would not.

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12-25-2007, 12:59 PM

Posted By: MVSNYC"Even if the card went for $11K or $14K or $25K, based on what the seller is telling me, I am not sure he would have gone for it....I am not sure money was the motivating factor here." that's the funnest thing i've heard in quite some time... for the record, i could care less about this card (i have zero interest in signed T206's)... edited to say that i was quoting paul's last post, but he quickly re-wrote it.

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12-25-2007, 01:15 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...was that the seller has never been thorougly interested in parting with this card. And for him, he was very interested in being able to share it with the collecting public. As far as I can tell, for him it was more than just about money. Yes, when they say it's not about the money it is always about the money. But in this case, I think there are other factors at play in addition to the money. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 01:24 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman"Yes, when they say it's not about the money it is always about the money. But in this case, I think there are other factors at play in addition to the money." Yes, MORE MONEY!!!

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12-25-2007, 01:24 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf it really isn't about the money then he shouldn't have put it up on ebay for sale. There are other ways to share it.

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12-25-2007, 01:32 PM

Posted By: Dan ParadisI just read every response to this thread (I rarely ever do that). Paul, I really am sorry you lost the card. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the seller did not "reneg" because of the hate mail. He realized that he could have received more money for the card. He's obviously all about the $$. PERIOD. Dan

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12-25-2007, 01:35 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...to think that is not a distinct possibility. But for the time being, I am not of that opinion. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 01:40 PM

Posted By: Fred CI'll probably avoid this sellers auctions because he will end them after stating he wouldn't and then he reneged on the deal he made that ended the auction that he said he would never end. I've been on the end of a deal where someone ended the auction early and the seller received a few emails about the item. Luckily the seller was a "stand-up" person and kept our deal.

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12-25-2007, 01:41 PM

Posted By: MattJust something to consider - the third post in this thread suggested the seller doesn't even own the item; perhaps that would explain why he couldn't complete the transaction... Wasn't it suggested that this card was listed for auction on ebay a year ago?

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12-25-2007, 02:02 PM

Posted By: BrianThe process simply isn't over. More negotiations to follow. Perhaps this was his plan from the start to maximize his sale price? Whoever ends up with the card is the champ, and all others should handle their being outplayed in a mature and professional manner. Negotiating to end the auction early, the use of a website to promote the card after the sale, the use of hate mail, the word of the seller constantly breaking -- its all part of the beautiful negotiations. All tactics welcomed. I hear the seller is a nice guy.

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12-25-2007, 02:05 PM

Posted By: Al SimeonePaul, I to just read thru this thread and do agree with Dan it is definitely about the Benjamins. If it was my card I would want to get the most out of it also. One point that I feel needs to be talked about is the fact that Not having the card in hand do you really feel it was wise to go on your web site and talk about a card that you really didnt own yet? I found that a little foolish. Unless you went and picked up the card and finished the deal and had the card in your hand I myself would have never talked about it until such time. Just taking it into context you had to believe there was going to be alot of people intrested in that card. (I for one am not just to let you know) and by going on your site and talking about it isnt that like rubbing salt in the wound? You had to think there was going to be some angry people didnt you? I wont discuss weather buying it off line was ethical or not because ebay "opens the door" for such pratices to happen. And it does happen all the time . But I think if the seller is such a stand up guy as you say then he should have realized that by you posting up on your site that the card was yours (so to speak) that this was going to set off a fire storm pro and con on the subject. I really feel there was a better way to handle the whole situation. But now I guess we will all see where this all shakes out if the seller does decide to relist the card. Sorry you didnt get the card but as you say if the card does mean that much to you then you really may have the chance at it to really put your money where your mouth is.

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12-25-2007, 02:06 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBrian, he's not nice. He's standup. As noted, the seller has started and ended and then re-started other auctions on ebay. He seems like a greedy kook. I think Paul is lucky to have had this deal fall through.

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12-25-2007, 02:14 PM

Posted By: Dave FThe seller is far from a "stand-up" guy...what he is however, is a smart guy. Look at all the free publicity he got here as well as on Paul's site...the next time he decides to list it, he'll have a few more watchers.

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12-25-2007, 02:17 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaHe's so flaky though he may end up with people who won't bid.

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12-25-2007, 02:17 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldPaul - I am sorry to hear you lost the card. Also, as someone who posted on this thread and had a snipe in on the card (albeit at an amount a lot les than $14k), I wanted to note that I did not email the seller since this thread went up. My last email communication with him was inquiring if the card was no longer available for auction and when he informed me that he had made a deal with Paul, I then moved on to other auctions.

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12-25-2007, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDan, I agree with you. First, he's a flake; and second, you've got an expert on here who thinks the autograph is a fake. That's not good for business.

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12-25-2007, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI know Richard Simon didn't give his opinion on the autograph, but it's a bit telling that he chimed in here with his thoughts on Spence...for those that don't know Simon is a leading autograph expert and one of only I think two that passed HBO Realsports authentication test. But I would take Rhys Yeakley's opinion on autographs above Spence myself.

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12-25-2007, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Glen TurnerT206 collector: Are you still going to show a picture of the Johnson card on your website or do you only show pictures of cards that you personally own? Do you prefer a signed T206 Rucker over a Bresnahan?

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12-25-2007, 02:34 PM

Posted By: JohnSpeechless the whole thing is just a bit crazy, as for the “hate” mail etc. to me emailing to kill a deal after all is said and done (good or bad) is as bad as ending the auction in the first place IMO. I guess someone else subscribes to your playbook too Paul perhaps he’s just a bit higher in sodium content? “When cards show up on ebay, there are no guarantees that they're going to make it to closing. No matter what the seller says. When those cards are once in a lifetime cards, you owe it to yourself to make the best run at it that you can. Otherwise, you may just miss it. And with this card, I was not prepared to miss it. Even at the risk of coming across a bit salty.” I guess you can find a bit of irony in this? You emailed to end the deal first and then someone ended it a second time via email. With that said if what you say is true and this guy didn’t want to sell this card before…he sure won’t want to now. Good luck and happy holidays. John

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12-25-2007, 02:38 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...I'd be repeating myself and so I won't. I will gladly show cards I don't own on my website, if I have permission from the owners. If you or anyone else have any to show that I don't have, then please send them my way. I'd be glad to show them. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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12-25-2007, 08:58 PM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieThis is the craziest deal I've read about in a while. Sorry to hear it fell through for you Paul.I keep waiting for Bill Parcells name to pop in here somwhere...

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12-25-2007, 09:14 PM

Posted By: marty quinn i kmow this seller well, let's just say we had a deal on an item he e mailed me about, not ending an auction, but an item that i bid on and didn't meet rsv, we settled on a price, i asked to put up a buy it now,(for my protection) he said what for? someone could beat me to it! am i nuts, i said that's fine, if i get beat within 2 minutes so be it. guess what, he emailed saying he got a better price and was selling to the other guy, i could out bid him if i wanted, out bid what? there was no auction!! stand up he is not, a fasteddy he is, that's my opinion. with this amount of $$$ involved you would be crazy not to think it's something other than the almighty dollar. i bet the card is sold to another buyer. again my opinon. do you really think he cares where the card goes once it sells for thousands!!!

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12-25-2007, 09:44 PM

Posted By: JKPaul, Sorry to hear that the deal fell through. Really sucks if you ask me - particularly the fact that someone on this board felt the need to intentionally try to derail your deal. IMO, the person who did it is a coward for not coming on here and acknowledging he did it and nothing more than a sore loser. However, after reading what Marty just wrote, I think you might be better off. This seller seems like a flake and far from stand up. I wonder what would happen if, even having no intention to complete the deal, someone here were to offer the guy 20+k for the card - who thinks it would once again be sold?

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12-25-2007, 09:56 PM

Posted By: Jeff W.Paul, it looks like you have had a pretty busy day! Sorry to hear you lost out on the card. Love the website though, keep it up! Jeff W.

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12-25-2007, 10:15 PM

Posted By: Aaron SeefeldtIs it me or are there more and more signed T206s everyday? I thought these guyse were dead...

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12-25-2007, 10:24 PM

Posted By: BrettI'm sure alot of board members ask sellers to end auctions early and i'm sure some find some cards that aren't correctly labelled and don't tell the sellers. If the t206 signed Johnson goes to a seller that will keep it for years and not just buy it and then sell it a week later for make some cash, than I think thats better. I don't think these baseball players intended for people to take advantage of their autographs or cards for that matter to make alot of money on. I mean so many people just use these cards like currency and try to make a quick buck instead of collecting them because they like to collect. I don't think it was a fair thing to do because i'm sure many Johnson collectors would have wanted that card, but like I say, if its going to someone who will treasure it for years to come, I don't mind it as much. Its a real neat card and I wish i owned it ! I think i;ve just repeated myself several times but i'm tired :S

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12-26-2007, 03:52 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI don't know if anybody caught the irony of the seller's name (this thread has already gotten too long to check) but Paul Newman once played a character named Fast Eddie Felsen. And it was in the movie The Hustler (and reprised in The Color of Money), and Fast Eddie hustled people out of their money. Sounds like this seller may be a Paul Newman fan.

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12-26-2007, 06:26 AM

Posted By: Steve D........and or a hustler. Steve

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12-26-2007, 06:42 AM

Posted By: MattNow we know this seller had another deal he mysteriously backed out of - can anyone confirm this guy even has any of these high $$ cards? Does he hae any intention of selling them?

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12-26-2007, 07:17 AM

Posted By: BobI just wanted to post a note regarding some previous cards sold by "FastEddie". It seems he sold cards that were PSA graded however when trying to verify the cards on the PSA website they were not the correct cards. For instance he listed: 1) Rube Marquard PSA 2 - PSA label says "Portrait" but the actual card is not the Portrait variation. Also, the PSA # does not match when verified by PSA. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170174706987&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170174706987&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007</a> <a href="http://www.psacard.com/do_verify.chtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/do_verify.chtml</a> 2) John Mcgraw PSA 2 Portrait with cap - Card in the holder is the Pointing variation. Again, the verification # does not match PSA. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170174709004&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170174709004&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007</a>

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12-26-2007, 10:02 AM

Posted By: Steve DWhile looking at his feedback I came across 1 auction where he stated he was going to end it soon w/o a sale because he heard from a knowledgable collector that he was selling the lot too cheap. He was going to get the cards graded etc. Not sure if he did in fact do what his revision stated because it appears the lot did sell and he was left feedback. He also showed a rare Plank card in some of his auctions yet the card was not part of the auction and was the subject of many questions to the seller. The guy is a little sleazy in the way he conducts business IMO. Steve D

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12-26-2007, 10:12 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAs Jackie Gleason said to Paul Newman: "Now I know why the call you fast Eddie!"

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12-26-2007, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Joe D.the person who committed the most wrong in this situation: ... the board member who sent the nasty email to the seller. why? for what purpose? Paul - sorry you missed out on the card. It belonged in your collection. I have to believe that the seller got a better offer or thinks he will get a better offer. I have sold cards to board members that I believed belonged in their collection.... and probably could have gotten more if I opened it up to others... so I feel badly that this one is not in your collection. But - when it is all said and done - these are just cards. Nothing to lose sleep over. This seller is some piece of work. edited a bit

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12-26-2007, 10:52 AM

Posted By: Dan KravitzThe signature doesn't look like others I have see, but I am no expert. You may have just saved yourself a whole lot of money if it was forged. Excuse me while I take some t206 cards in poor condition and try to forge a signature. I will submit to PSA in Chicago this fall and see if I can get any put in holders. I'll bet I get at least one of 'em. Stay tuned!

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12-26-2007, 02:40 PM

Posted By: John<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/grinch.jpg"> Ok at the risk of being Wonka the grinch on Christmas what’s the deal with the overall love fest going on here? Let’s look at the facts, Paul openly admits that he will take whatever steps necessary to obtain a card he wants or feel fits his collection. Not now but one day perhaps one of these cards in his sights will be one your bidding on and want for your collection. Then what happens when he backdoors that auction and shuts you down, still group hugs all the way around? Still feel the card belongs in his collection, is his collection more important than yours or anyone else’s for that matter? Read the words from his mouth, now I respect the fact that he’s honest, but come on folks the writing is right there. Any of this ring a bell? ************************************************** ****** “When cards show up on ebay, there are no guarantees that they're going to make it to closing. No matter what the seller says. When those cards are once in a lifetime cards, you owe it to yourself to make the best run at it that you can. Otherwise, you may just miss it. And with this card, I was not prepared to miss it. Even at the risk of coming across a bit salty.” “I can take the heat from competitive card collectors vying for the same card.” “I never said I wouldn't have been outbid. On ebay, unlike most other auction formats, which give you a chance to extend the time of the auction in extended bidding, you never know what snipes are lurking in the dark. Hence my interest in ending the auction early. We'll never know if someone else was coming in higher than what I paid--but what I paid was higher than the prices discussed above.” “In the end, I can totally appreciate why there are unhappy collectors out there. But when it comes to signed T206 cards that are not on in my collection, I will make very aggressive pushes to get them. It is just about all I collect anymore.You may call this shady business practices, but I frankly think it is what is necessary to get some tough cards these days on ebay. Is it unfortunate it has come to this? Sure. Do I lose sleep over it? No.” ************************************************** ***** Once a week or so there are a multitude of posts on here about sellers ending auctions early and how much it sucks, never once have I seen people post “well its probably for the best the person who ended it, that card most likely belonged in his or her collection.” And this whole the card belongs in your collection stuff…give me a break when a card is up for auction it belongs with the highest bidders collection, nothing more nothing less. Can we say it would have been nice if good old’ Paul would have won the card sure, but these cards go to the highest bidder, nobody’s let me win any cards I need for my collection or cut me a break. I get them because I bid and I’m high bidder that’s the whole point of an auction. As for ebay and the above auction the auction was running just fine, Paul went backdoor shut it down snagged the card etc, then discussed this openly (silly) and in returned got the backdoor treatment from another collector and the seller. As for the person who sabotaged Paul. I’m highly skeptical of this and would love Paul to elaborate...but I have a feeling he wont. At this point while I appreciate Paul’s honesty and candor about his not so savory card obtaining practices I don’t in any way feel sorry or happy on this situation. The facts are simple Paul plays a no rules barred approach to ebay and getting cards he wants, so if someone else played hardball back…oh well perhaps this is a lesson that your method may not work 100%. I guess to quote a phrase that's all the rage he’s not losing any sleep over it…why are any of you??? Nothing personal Paul just calling it as I see it. edited aserisks to try to shorten posts...

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12-26-2007, 06:03 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWhen I need a card and its a must card, I would do everything possible to win it. This includes first asking the seller to stop the auction and I will pay a fair price; if that doesn't work trying to get him to name his price to stop the auction; and if that doesn't work start throwing numbers at him but telling him they are only good for a certain amount of time. I would find out what collectors/dealers that I am friendly with knew him and try to exert pressure that way. Most likely I would have bought cards from him in the past so I will call upon an old relationship. I would also remind him of buying power I have in the future. I would also try to find out what else he is selling and offer to buy other items he has for sale as well to clinch the sale. This is a competitive hobby and T206 is just scratching the surface of what collectors will do to stop auctions.

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12-26-2007, 06:24 PM

Posted By: Joe D.on a personal level you know I like you and consider you a friend - I just don't see eye to eye with you on this one. --------- "Once a week or so there are a multitude of posts on here about sellers ending auctions early and how much it sucks, never once have I seen people post “well its probably for the best the person who ended it, that card most likely belonged in his or her collection.” And this whole the card belongs in your collection stuff…give me a break when a card is up for auction it belongs with the highest bidders collection, nothing more nothing less." --------- my response to this would be: If anyone can be so idealistic as to suggest ending auctions early is wrong (although not against any rules)... In that same context - why can't I be just as idealistic and suggest where a card belongs? An ended auction stinks for those interested in the card - no doubt. I dislike it when it happens. But I don't think the seller did 'wrong' by me. I think it is part of the culture of eBay. The same culture where buyers set snipes (an outside technology - playing on eBays timing feature) to get the lowest price they can on a card (at the expense of sellers). The same culture where a miscategorized items are coveted as 'finds' by buyers. This is not an ethical wonderland. It is eBay. Ending auctions early is just as fair as buyers snipes IMO.

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12-26-2007, 06:39 PM

Posted By: Steve DSo if that is the case, then what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough? Steve D

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12-26-2007, 06:48 PM

Posted By: dennis"what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough?" nothing according to some people here, as long as it belongs in your collection,it's A-OK.

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12-26-2007, 06:58 PM

Posted By: Joe D.if that is directed at me.... I never said there was a wrong done by anyone in the purchase process.... even the person who may have emailed and offered higher $$$ to the seller (most probable that is what happened) - that person would have done no wrong. what I found wrong - was the mentioned - - 'nasty emails' that were sent to the seller. sending nasty emails? thats ridiculous imo.

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12-26-2007, 07:15 PM

Posted By: Steve DYes Joe, my comment was. It was a question. Also, Paul later clarified his comment and stated the emails (to fast eddy) were not nasty, just rude (maybe) The bottom line here is simply once the seller reneged on his public statement that the auction was not going to end early all protocols were off. Person(s) that had an interest in the card made off line offers as well. We have no idea if he made another deal or just got cold feet thinking he may have left money on the table. All in all he showed that he was not an honorable individual. Paul stated earlier that the seller got many emails not just one. Steve edited to add: Sorry he did say they were nasty, the clarification to rude was regarding that they were not violent or threatening.

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12-26-2007, 07:22 PM

Posted By: JoannI don't like the offline ebay deals that seem unfair to those that relied on a full auction, but I do understand why it's necessary in some cases. I think it's also fair for someone to email the seller after the auction is shut down and offer even more - even to the extent of causing the seller to cancel the original offline sale. I can't find a way to like one practice while disliking the other PROVIDED that the after-sale email was in pursuit of purchasing the card. But it's a whole 'nother thing when someone emails the seller to rail on him or berate him when that emailer did not have any interest in the card, was not trying to buy the card, and was not someone that was ever really in play for the card. I don't know why, but for some reason I can't shake the feeling that that's what happened here. Someone from this board read this thread and decided to use the opportunity to tell the seller what he should or shouldn't do, what is or isn't right, and how he can nor cannot act. Someone just wanted to bitch - plain and simple. So for Paul - I sincerely hope that this turns out to be a matter of "all's well that ends well". From what is emerging about this seller, it is starting to look like that although you may never know for sure. As to the person from this board that emailed the seller, I am in agreement with whoever upthread said he should come on here and own up to it. If the person from this board that emailed is someone that was genuinely interested in the card and was making a play for it, then come on here and say so. I don't think anyone would think too much about that. But if someone with no interest in the card read this thread and decided to take an opportunity to try to impose his or her opinion on the seller - no matter how shady the seller is - to me that is frivolous interference with a transaction and starts getting close to abuse of access to this forum. Joann ETA: Anyone know what it is upthread that is causing the need to scroll to the right? URL's look okay - not sure what it is. Can someone edit their post if it is causing the scroll-right?

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12-26-2007, 07:47 PM

Posted By: Joe D.to answer your question: "So if that is the case, then what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough? " the answer is: nothing. but to send the seller a 'nasty' or a'rude' email is wrong. Joann has explained this more eloquently than I would be able to - so I won't even try. jmho. have a great evening. edit: took out a line of type (could have been misinterpreted - and not what was intended)

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12-26-2007, 07:57 PM

Posted By: JKSteve D, you asked: "So if that is the case, then what is wrong with someone emailing the seller (after it has ended and presumably sold) and offering even more dough?" In many states, intentionally interfering with a contract between two other parties is actionable. Now, in reality, will someone sue a third party across state lines for such a small amount and with a less than certain ability to prove damages - unlikely.

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12-26-2007, 07:58 PM

Posted By: Steve DJoe I agree, and it goes w/o saying that sending nasty or rude emails is not a polite thing to do to anyone including this seller. I think I misinterpreted and that is why I asked the question. But I fully agree that sending emails that are 'nasty' and or 'rude' is not nice. I think many people were pissed off that the auction was taken out from under them and emailed there frustrations to the seller. JMO Steve

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12-26-2007, 08:00 PM

Posted By: JoannSteve, But in those cases it would be completely okay and even understandable to email the seller, and even be irate about it. If people were frustrated that the auction was taken out from underneath them, then they were genuinely interested in the card and honestly had every right to voice their frustration. It's the recreational sideline spectator b!tchers that I think are out of line, myself. Joann

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12-26-2007, 08:37 PM

Posted By: ErlandStevensOh boy, I hate to step into this mess, but I just can't resist. I collect more on the memorabilia side than cards. This signed T206 is really more a piece of memorabilia than a card (IMO). Memorabilia on ebay is tough because it's harder to price than cards. Both buyers and sellers are less certain on what the close will be. I am an idealist with ebay. Auctions simply shouldn't be ended early for an off-ebay sale. Over time, I've learned that this is naive. (I still think it's right, but it's not the reality.) While I've seen lots of stuff close early, I've only been a part of the situation three times... A little over a year ago, I was going to bid on a lot that closed early. I was steamed and sure that somebody made an offer on it. I admit that I emailed the seller and told him that he very likely made a bad deal. Furthermore, I said that if the buyer was willing to go off ebay to close the auction then I had no problem in going off ebay to make a counter offer. [In my heart I feel like I just disappointed Barry - sorry Barry.] The buyer replied not to worry because he had lots more of the same type of material. He did have some similar stuff, but not the same. I'm still convinced that the seller lost out. Of course, I'm selfish - I couldn't care less about the seller (or ebay). I'm disappointed that *I* missed out. A few months ago a seller put up a lot with a nice item in it. Wise from my previous experience, I asked the seller not to close it early. Never, he replied. He later said that he was getting a lot of offers. Since he had much similar material, he put everything into one massive lot. I don't have a lot of funds for collecting, and I knew that I had no chance on the big lot. Within 24 hours, both auctions ended. The seller got an offer that he couldn't refuse. Within a couple weeks, the buyer came on this board and showed off part of the lot. I called him on it, but nobody seemed to care. I cannot complain too much. The seller held out an item for me and sold it to me for less than what I had already told him was a fair price. Last month a nice lot came up, and I again asked the seller not to close it early. He asked what I thought it was worth ($50 was my answer). He said that he was getting a lot of interest and would let it run. Great, I replied. About 12 hours before the close, I placed a bid ($52 or similar). The lot was at like $10. The seller offered to close it for my original offer of $50. I said to just let it ride and figured it would go for $30-40. I ended up being the underbidder to a snipe. I think that sniping is a source of the problem here. Snipes really leave the seller in the dark. For lots with a clear market value (graded T206 Cobb), anyone with experience in ebay can be somewhat confident about the closing price. For memorabilia with a thinner base, items of value can fall between the cracks. A lack of bidders can make a seller nervous, and poor decisions on an early close can be the result. Any tool that gives a buyer such an advantage is going to lead sellers looking to minimize a perceived loss. The T206 Johnson apparently had a lot more interest than the seller realized. In keeping their cards close, snipers can leave a seller feeling vulnerable. In defense of sniping, it is within the rules of ebay. You still have to be the highest bidder to win the lot. That's not the case with offers to close.

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12-26-2007, 10:04 PM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyI gotta admit I am a little surprised at how some people will freely admit that they are essentially willing to do "whatever it takes" to get the card they want. While I have first hand knowledge of several people in the hobby willing to do just about anything to get what they want (a little creepy and wierd if you ask me) but I find it strange those that would come on a public forum and admit they would throw out their morals for a card or two, guess that is one way to clean up the hobby huh!

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12-27-2007, 02:22 AM

Posted By: fkwIm surprised at how crazy this post got. I thought that card was a $2K to $3K card at best. Shows how much I know. Wish I would have picked up all the signed T206 cards I used to see in those 1985-90s auctions. It seems like every single auction house (pre eBay) had one or two signed T206's, and sometime big (tough sig) names like Waddell, Mathewson, Cobb, Young, etc. I dont have time now to go through all my catelogs (I have over 80 packed away from my move). Here are 2 scans from a San Francisco auction house I used to drive to and bid/watch all the time (Wolffers). Thought you might want to see them. I'll scan all the others when I finally get around to unpacking my books etc. and show them next time this gets brought up. <img src=http://centuryoldcards.com/images/t206mcginityauto.jpg><img src=http://centuryoldcards.com/images/t206chanceauto.jpg> PS.Sorry to hear the deal didnt go through. Ive had it happen a couple times and know how it feels to a smaller degree.

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12-27-2007, 04:14 AM

Posted By: howardI agree with dan Paradis 100%. The seller thought he could make more dough so he reneged on his deal. Edited because Dan already posted almost the exact comment I just did.

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12-27-2007, 05:12 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonTo fkw - hope you were only watching those two T206 signed cards and not bidding. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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12-27-2007, 06:01 AM

Posted By: Paul MossSnipes the source of the problem? Let's get a grip on reality here. "Last month a nice lot came up, and I again asked the seller not to close it early. He asked what I thought it was worth ($50 was my answer). He said that he was getting a lot of interest and would let it run. Great, I replied. About 12 hours before the close, I placed a bid ($52 or similar). The lot was at like $10. The seller offered to close it for my original offer of $50. I said to just let it ride and figured it would go for $30-40. I ended up being the underbidder to a snipe." Someone thought that the lot was worth more than you and was willing to pay accordingly. You had a shot at a price level you thought was a market valuation off ebay, yet you passed thinking that you would get it for substantially less, rolled the dice, and lost. Now snipes are the problem? Sorry, I must be missing something here. With my personal auctions, I state that I do not end auctions early and stick to this policy. I have developed a loyal buyer following over the years who know that there will be no games played and have a chance of winning the item. All they have to do is bid, and bid high enough to beat the competition. God, I do so love the free market system. A seller will never really profit in the long run by accepting these behind the scenes offers. Bidders remember sellers who have pulled the rug from under them which could affect future business dealings, and if the truth be known, 99.9% of the time, these offers are under market. These games might work with sellers who just rode into town on the haywagon, but any true professional will take a pass knowing that this buyer's offer is nowhere near the true value which in all probability and barring a catastrophe of biblical proportions, will be reached in the auction format.

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12-27-2007, 06:11 AM

Posted By: Marty OgelvieSniping is one of many things that leads to sellers ending auctions early.  A seller that is getting few bids may get nervous and opt to end an auction early without knowing that there are many snipes in place.  If the sniping sites simply sent the ebay seller and email stating that a snipe had been placed on his or her auction then the seller would not be as tempted to end the auction early.  If I were selling a high ticket item, it sure would be nice to know that even though I have only a few bids there are many snipes already set...Its seems simple enough.

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12-27-2007, 06:12 AM

Posted By: keywayI have had this done to me several times. IMO the seller who does this is a puke. Once a bid is excepted the item should always go to the end. By the same token IMO the bidder who does this is also a puke. He is only a greedy person who has no regard for an honest auction. Standing up for either is a joke.

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12-27-2007, 06:16 AM

Posted By: MattPaul - "the true value which in all probability and barring a catastrophe of biblical proportions, will be reached in the auction format." I agree with everything yous said except the piece quoted; I think it's fairly common to see listings end at less then "true value" on ebay; I have had several instances where the seller left money on the table by not accepting an offer of mine, and I won the card anyway. (my presumption is that the "true value" which Paul speaks of is a pre-determined market value based on multiple prior sales. Saying "true value" is determined by whatever the current auction ends at is not what we're discussing, since then Paul's assertion that the auction format brings "true value" is nothing more then a definition)

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12-27-2007, 06:27 AM

Posted By: Jason Lsince the post count had skyrocketed past 150 since last I looked...knew something had to be going on. Paul, very sorry to hear this. You made a valiant attempt at a collection centerpiece, so you did what you could. Regardless of the seller's motivation for pulling it from you, he now may have a few hurdles to overcome if he tries the Ebay route again, given the exposure and opinions from this thread (credibility, authenticity, etc). Which means if he truly wants to part with it, we should expect to see it in one of Mastro's upcoming auctions. But at least now we are all fully aware that college football coaches are active in the collecting community! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-27-2007, 06:28 AM

Posted By: Paul MossMatt Ebay is efficient in its inefficiency. It sets a "value" per se, on any specific item at any specific time as an object is only worth what someone is willing to pay. Forget guides and services providing market trends. We live with a very thinly traded market and when two high rollers have been butting heads on a specific set driving prices to the stratosphere relative to prior levels, what happens when one or both either have the card, or quit the set altogether? A virtual collapse!

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12-27-2007, 06:37 AM

Posted By: MattPaul - this discussion is really off-topic, but which of the following are you claiming: (for our purposes, I'm using "established market value" to mean the price an identical item has sold for on multiple occasions) 1) An item sold on open auction will always realize its established market value (barring an act of God as you say). 2) By definition, an item sold on open auction is worth whatever it ends as. If you are only stating #2, I don't see how that is relevant to a discussion of a seller taking an offer to end the listing early; after all, if the established market value is more then the item will end up at it, he would be making a wise decision in taking the offer at the established market value. Of course this is a gamble, but it's not always a bad move by the seller as you suggest. If you are claiming #1 then I debate that since I often see ebay listings end for less then established market value.

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12-27-2007, 06:42 AM

Posted By: ErlandStevensPaul M. - You're totally right. Somebody set a snipe that beat my highest bid, and that person won the auction. I don't have a problem with losing to a snipe as long as I get a chance to put in my bid(s) within the time frame of the auction. However, from a seller's perspective, snipes do leave the seller in the dark. I do think that could lead to some lots (especially ones that are tough to price) to be closed early from offers.

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12-27-2007, 06:58 AM

Posted By: Solomon Cramer1) People wonder why items (by and large) get more money in major auctions than on ebay. Here is a shining example. You're dealing with a flake seller, who either has no idea what he's doing or doesn't care, jerking around everyone interested in an item. I haven't read them lately, but I'm sure ebay's TOS explicitly forbids the side deal that happened here...how much credibility does the seller have if he's going to violate the TOS of his initial contract. Can you imagine if Mastro et al pulled a stunt like this? At least with a major catalog auction, I know a) the highest bid will win, b) the seller/auction house actually has the item in hand, ready to ship when they receive my payment, and c) isn't going to call me up three days later with a sob story how they were threatened by someone who wanted the item more than me. 2) Any seller who is going to grab the fast buck and take a (preceived) above market figure for his item is just undermining his long term success as a dealer/seller. Just as Paul mentioned, I cannot recall ever having pulled an item off ebay to sell it to someone privately. I ended auctions early at times, usually when I realized an error in the listing, or because I screwed something up. But I took pride, that if I posted an item for sale, people could expect that the highest bid would take it. And I always felt I got a premium over people who were jerking around, opening and closing auctions, etc. 3) From a practical standpoint, why should a buyer not do "whatever it takes" to get what they want? A buyer doesn't need to have any credibility - just money. Sellers aren't going to ban a buyer for making an offer early. The only thing stopping a buyer from doing so is eBay's TOS - if they are comfortable ignoring the rules they agreed to follow, that is the only impediment. It's bullsh#! like this which is why ebay is fundamentally a flea market, instead of a real commerce/auction site, and will never be a premium vehicle for sales.

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12-27-2007, 07:23 AM

Posted By: Paul MossOff-topic? Since when has a thread ever gone off-topic on Net54? "For our purposes, I'm using "established market value" to mean the price an identical item has sold for on multiple occasions." Already we hit a stumbling block with this statement. Please understand that I am refering to vintage cards and not the shiny-shiny modern commodity cards. Having said that, I will state that rarely will two vintage cards are truly identical despite the holder and assigned grade. There are God awful ugly looking 4's, 5's, and 6's, and then again, there are 4's, 5's and 6's that take your breath away with their appearance. Are they truly worth the same (+/- 10%)? "1) An item sold on open auction will always realize its established market value (barring an act of God as you say)." Most of the time, yes. Sure there are exceptions, but MOST of the time, an item will bring what it's actually worth for that specific item. "2) By definition, an item sold on open auction is worth whatever it ends as. If you are only stating #2, I don't see how that is relevant to a discussion of a seller taking an offer to end the listing early; after all, if the established market value is more then the item will end up at it, he would be making a wise decision in taking the offer at the established market value. Of course this is a gamble, but it's not always a bad move by the seller as you suggest." Hell if I know. Everyone has to operate their business as they see fit. The thread regarding "Why did this card sell so high" on this page of the board certainly supports my stance. What is the "established" value of this item? When bidding was around $40, I received offers of 200 and 250. A neophyte seller might have jumped, but as I stated previously, 99.9% of the time, these offers are lowball at best, or attempts at outright thievery at worst. The matter of "established value" can be debated ad infinitum. Sure there are instances where items slip under the radar, and times when they sell at ridiculously high levels, but overall and on average, the field has a tendancy to be level.

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12-27-2007, 07:29 AM

Posted By: Steve DI used to drive to and bid/watch all the time (Wolffers). Didn't that guy "Wolffers" get busted for selling fakes? Sorry if this post is not on the original topic. Steve

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12-27-2007, 07:33 AM

Posted By: Paul MossRichard Wolffers in San Francisco back in the late 80's, early 90's? I thought that he died.............

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12-27-2007, 07:42 AM

Posted By: Joe D.from the Wolffers Auctions, May 1995 I don't know if it is real or fake - I am not even close to qualified to make that type of determination. sure looks very similar to how McGinnity "signed" his T206 (shown in this thread) <img src="http://www.internetville.com/stuff/mathewson_t206.jpg">

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12-27-2007, 07:43 AM

Posted By: leonMy view on this whole issue is summed up in 2 words....."poetic justice"...... Karma my friends....what comes around goes around...and all of those other sayings....

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12-27-2007, 07:54 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPaul, He jumped off a bridge to his death.

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12-27-2007, 07:56 AM

Posted By: Joe D.I hate to hear things like that.

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12-27-2007, 08:00 AM

Posted By: Paul MossJim No Sh**! I knew him when he was a part-timer in the mid 60's working fulltime as a TWA jet engine mechanic.

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12-27-2007, 08:01 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWolffer's Auctions were run (and I believe owned) by Duane Garrett. All sorts of odd bidding occurred in his auctions, and eventually it became clear that something was clearly wrong. For whatever reason, related to the auction or otherwise, Duane took his own life around 1995. He jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. It was a tragic story, as I knew Duane personally and always thought he was a standup guy. But something was going on that we didn't know about.

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12-27-2007, 08:09 AM

Posted By: Paul MossBarry is correct. It was Duane who jumped off the bridge. I remember there was some deal over stiffing Pillar for 200K over a Gehrig jersey, and there were a whole bunch of investors who had millions (?) placed with him that errr...couldn't be found.

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12-27-2007, 08:18 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDuane--thats right. Never knew him personally but they would have live auctions in the early 90s and I would be on an active phone line for the entire auction. Bought a few trimmed cards from their auctions and bought some legit ones for a song.

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12-27-2007, 08:27 AM

Posted By: barrysloateDuane did get some really nice stuff- I still have all their old auction catalogs. But many times he would achieve prices that were ten times the previous world's record, and that simply didn't make any sense. It made more sense when we found out those sales never took place, and he was merely drawing attention to his auction house in order to get future consignments. But that whole scheme backfired and the business began to unravel.

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12-27-2007, 09:01 AM

Posted By: JK"He is only a greedy person who has no regard for an honest auction" An "honest auction" - now that is one funny statement what with all the shill bidding and other dishonest acts that sellers commonly engage in on ebay. Paul was not greedy. He tried to obtain a card that he felt would be central to his collection. I hold nothing against him for trying - my guess is, if asked and if honest, 90% of the board members would admit to asking a seller to end an auction early. If I had lost out on the card, sure, I would have been pissed. And then I would have gotten over my disappointment like an adult and congratulated Paul for getting the card - as opposed to berating the seller for screwing me out of a card (that I might not have won anyway) simply to try and mess up Paul's deal. Leon - Karma? In other words, you think Paul got what was coming to him? Im just curious if you have ever asked a seller to end an auction early. If not, then I commend you. If so, then I really think that statement is a bit hypocritical - or did Karma also come back and bite you on those occasions as well? As far as ending an auction early - your agreement with ebay does not prevent you from ending an auction early "because the item is no longer available for sale." Ebay has to allow this because the item belongs to the seller and, in the end, it is his to do with as he pleases. So, if you end an auction "because its no longer available for sale" does that mean you cant ever sell it again or if you do that it must be via ebay? Of course not. There is virtually no difference between a seller who ends an auction to sell it off line, and one who ends an auction because its no longer for sale and then wakes up the next day and decides he is going to sell after all. The only reason ebay doesnt like it is because they lose out on fees - and, of course, ebay has every right to be upset about that and, if it wishes, take away your bidding or selling privileges. It doesnt, however, have any right to prevent the offline sale. Further, if ebay wants me to be concerned about its ability to generate profits and refrain from such practices, then it ought to be concerned about my ability to detect whether an auction Im bidding on is being shilled by eliminating the anonymous bidding on anything over 200.

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12-27-2007, 09:14 AM

Posted By: MattJosh - "my guess is, if asked and if honest, 90% of the board members would admit to asking a seller to end an auction early." Josh - please don't confuse this with asking a seller to end the listing before an item has any bids. I'd imagine your 90% figure is correct if the item has no bids. However, I think in an instance, such as this one, where not only did the item have bids after being up for 5 days, the seller had made an open statement that he would not be ending the auction early, I don't think anywhere near 90% of the board would still ask the seller to end the item early.

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12-27-2007, 09:18 AM

Posted By: leonAs usual I disagree with a lot of what you think and say..I don't get your "hypocritical" analogy . "Hypocritical" is saying one thing and doing something else. I have never said I haven't asked a seller to end an auction. You are wrong on that statement about me. Let me try to answer the questions pertaining to me. Yes, I think Paul (hi Paul) got what was coming to him. I don't think he was greedy he was just doing what he had to, to try to ascertain the card. For the record I like Paul and hate to see this happen but yes, I think he had it coming to him. I have asked for sellers to end auctions and have had every conceivable thing happen. I never used to ask but when I found out everyone else did then I joined in the reindeer games. I have had the same thing happen to me as happened to Paul too. I just felt like it was part of the game and while disappointed, I knew I got what was coming to me, from the kind of seller that would end an auction after saying he wouldn't end it, so moved on without too much grief. So yes, I have, and it's happened to me too. No big deal. I am not holier than thou....I am sure you are so honest that if someone went behind your back and did something to get a card that you would never do the same. Very commendable of you for that. I AM NOT that good of a sport and if someone went behind me to get a card I would do the same. I would NOT DO IT just to wreck a sale though. I think that would be petty but if I truly wanted the card then I see no difference with me making a deal after the card was swept out from under me in the same fashion....For the record I didn't email this seller...and think he is just a greedy person and will end up losing out in some form or fashion. regards

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12-27-2007, 09:21 AM

Posted By: Fred CI've been reading over and over how some people feel that it is deplorable to see an auction ended early. Everyone has the same opportunity to make the seller an offer and end the auction. If it is a very tough item (rare or scarce) then it might be in your best interest to let the seller know you are interested. In the same email you might want to let the seller know that you might top an offer made by someone else (to end the auction). That does two things: 1) it lets the seller know you are interested in the item. 2) it may get the seller to think it through and to not pull the auction because of the extreme interest in the card.

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12-27-2007, 09:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI have never asked a seller to end an auction early. And I have done just the opposite- I have convinced sellers not to accept any offers to close as I (and others) plan to bid very aggressively on the item. And that has actually worked for me a few times. And Leon- Is there any way to condense this thread? It's torture to read. Can't you do a tiny url, or a Tiny Tim, or whatever it's called?

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12-27-2007, 09:29 AM

Posted By: JoannIf the seller reneged b/c he got a different or better offer, then to me that's okay. It is very clear from this thread how much the card meant to Paul to try to get. Suppose Paul was going to try to bid and win in in full auction format, and someone else got the seller to end early? I would absolutely understand it if Paul then approached the seller about why he shut down early, said he really wanted the card, and asked for an opportunity to make a better offer than the one that got the auction shut down. If a potential bidder got blind-sided by an early end, I really don't see how it's different for him to ask for one last shot from the seller. Asking to undo this kind of transaction for a bona fide offer is not all that different than asking to end an auction early for a bona fide offer. However, if the emails to the seller were from people that were only half-interested, or hoping it would somehow fall through the cracks with the holidays, or completely uninvolved third parties that just wanted to interfere, then I don't think that Paul "got what was coming to him". Not at all. J Oh - and regardless of where we all stand on the buyers' positions in these matters, I am in complete agreement with most people that have posted so far. The sellers that do these things - end early, undo done deals, etc - have almost no reasonable argument in their favor. Their name is mud (or Mudd, if you have seen National Treasure II yet!)

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12-27-2007, 09:36 AM

Posted By: DJFirst off, red lights should be going off in regards to all these signed T206 cards that are showing up. You never saw close to this many a few years back, but people have figured out that they can take a $20 card, add a common signature and turn it into a $200-300 item. I won't even comment about this Johnson and that Chance, McG and Mathewson are amusing. As far as ending auctions early, eBay is an auction site and not a site where something is displayed until an offer can be made. I can't stand people who end auctions early and won't deal with them. Is anyone surprised that people will do anything to get that desired card? Not me. Happy Holidays all! DJ

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12-27-2007, 09:53 AM

Posted By: JKLeon, I never said nor implied that you were the one who asked the seller to go back on his deal with paul. If you have asked sellers to end auctions early and recognized that in the future you too would get what was coming to you for doing so (or in fact did when the sale was pulled out from under you) then you are correct, your statement is not at all hypocritical (for what its worth, Im very aware of the words definition). My point was based on an assumption that if you've engaged in the same or similar conduct, you most likely thought there was nothing wrong with doing so at the time you did it. If that were the case, then it was hypocritical to say that Paul got what was coming to him. Obviously, from what you are saying above, you recognize that its "wrong" when you do it as well and accept any and all consequences - in that context, your statement is not hypocritical. Matt, no, I believe most people on this board at some time or another have asked a seller to end an auction after bids have been placed. Regardless of what many say publicly or whether they would admit it, I guarantee you the percentage who have done so is very high. Joanne - Im really surprised that you have no issue with the seller renegging AFTER a deal has been struck and a contract has been formed. I realize no one is going to go to court over this stuff, but I can think of a hundred factually analogous situations that could arise in a non-ebay, non-card context and I doubt you would counsel a prospective client on such a breach of contract issue that they were not wronged.

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12-27-2007, 10:08 AM

Posted By: chris blandThe thread isnt long (scrolling side to side) because of URLs - it is long because of the post with the line of unbroken asterisks in it.

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12-27-2007, 10:18 AM

Posted By: Paul SIt may or may not be the asterisks, but it is certainly at least due to the large scan of Mathewson. All that white space to the right of the scan is actually PART of the scan. Scans don't wrap, they push the page out as far wide as it needs to fit....that allows any text in the thread to take up that width too before it will wrap.

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12-27-2007, 10:23 AM

Posted By: leonThanks Chris....I think the asterisks did it(elongated posts)as I just shortened them and it seems to have worked...To reiterate one more time. I don't think what Paul did was wrong as much as I don't think what he got done to him was wrong (both were in the same vein).....The seller went back on his word, a few times, and that is wrong imo.....Also, if he did want to sell it off line he should have done it through ebay so they could garner their fees....and, yes, I have had sellers do the same for me but I do always tell them I would prefer a BIN option....regards

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12-27-2007, 10:47 AM

Posted By: JoannJosh, You're right. I guess I have to rethink that whole reneging thing. To put a finer point on it, I think it's okay from the bidder/buyer/offeror end but not so much from the seller end, and only in the cases such as we are talking about here - where the auction ended early b/c of an offline offer. In this case, the sale was advertised as an auction that would end at a specific time, not at a specific dollar amount since it did not have a BIN. Buyers relied on the seller statement (inherent in the auction format and regardless of the express statement added later) that they would have until Time X on Day Y to put in their offers. When, as in this case, an auction disappears, I think it is okay for the other bidders to jump in with subsequent offers to try to undo the sale. The sale itself is already on kind of thin ice if it was accomplished by an offline offer to end early, and I think that those that were counting on an opportunity to offer later are perfectly okay to try to do so. The seller? Heck he's already out on a limb for ending the auction early, so undoing that transaction is just the next shade of shady. I suppose if you do get someone to end early, you should probably assume that the seller could also be the type to sell the item out from underneath you in the next day or so. So now is there a gray grace period after an early end, in which sellers will wait for even more offers to make sure he gets the best one? Who knows. I sure don't. It's all a gray area of ethics once a seller agrees to end an auction early. It still gets me, this irony that if a seller ends early and then entertains other offers - or even waits a day or two for them - he is running an auction. So what's the point? That he now has some floor/minimum he's guaranteed to get? Isn't that what reserves are for? It's all very hazy to me, in terms of both the ethics and the point. J

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12-27-2007, 11:11 AM

Posted By: JK"To put a finer point on it, I think it's okay from the bidder/buyer/offeror end but not so much from the seller end" Glad we got the seller out of the way. Maybe Im wrong, but without researching the issue, it would seem that the bidder/buyer/offeror (I assume you mean the second in line - ie the one who offers more money to get the seller to reneg) has tortiously interfered with another's contract - so he isnt off the hook either. "In this case, the sale was advertised as an auction that would end at a specific time, not at a specific dollar amount since it did not have a BIN. Buyers relied on the seller statement (inherent in the auction format and regardless of the express statement added later) that they would have until Time X on Day Y to put in their offers." Correct, but the seller formed no contract with any of these potential offerors and was under no obligation to continue to accept offers/bids if he found a deal to his liking. "When, as in this case, an auction disappears, I think it is okay for the other bidders to jump in with subsequent offers to try to undo the sale." See above. "The seller? Heck he's already out on a limb for ending the auction early, so undoing that transaction is just the next shade of shady." True, but I still believe that this is permitted by ebay's rules (though obviously ebay would prefer that it be done by revising the auction and putting it up with a BIN so it gets its fees). The fact that it was done off line is shady only to the extent that the seller is trying to save himself a couple hundred in ebay fees - its not shady simply because he chose to end the auction early and accept an unsolicited offer.

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12-27-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: Fred CWhat was mentioned earlier about using ebay and the BIN works great for a couple of reasons: 1) ebay (which provides the web presence) should collect their fee for the sale because it was their outlet that presented the opportunity of the sale. 2) The buyer and seller are then obligated to fulfill the deal by sending payment and sending the item. The BIN provides a contract between the seller and buyer. Sure, an off-line deal may have forward looking statements that may be implied but there is no contract. Overall, the BIN presents an obligation. I know I'm going to get a load of crap for this but "oh well" - when I strike a deal with someone on ebay to end an auction I always tell them to set the BIN and then email me the new item number ASAP. There's no guarantee I'll get the item but I'll have the best chance of anyone because I know the item is coming up. Also, I don't do it often. One other thing. You can be in a discussion with the seller to end an item early and someone might throw a bid on the item while the details are being negotiated. Does that mean that the seller should cancel their deal with you because someone threw a bid on the item while terms of the sale of the item were being discussed? Rationalize it anyway you want to. You'll never know if discussions were going on about an item before you bid on it. When on ebay, do like the other ebayers (go ahead and try to end the auction early, if you don't someone else might. Also, try not leaving your signature when you ask the seller to end an item early because your name will be present in the Q/A section of the item description (if the seller opts to place the comment in the item description).